just heard on the news today, some punk killed 10 students and himself at a schooli in Finland....................this has gotten way out of hand!
school shootings must be stopped some way!
School shooting in Finland
Radio Netherlands, Netherlands - 17 hours ago
by RNW Newsdesk A gunman at a school in the town of Kauhajoki, Western Finland, has opened fire, killing several people. Police are reporting that the ...
10 people dead after school shooting in Finland WNDU-TV
Death toll rises to 11 in Finland school shooting CBC.ca
Gunman kills 10 in Finland school shooting The Age
findingDulcinea - guardian.co.uk
so sorry the link didn't work again!
This has got to stop!
This has got to stop!
Life is just to short for drama.
This has got to stop!
You had some method in mind?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
This has got to stop!
I saw this on the news too.
He had put film of himself at a shooting range on you tube apparently issuing threats.
He was interviewed by police on Monday about the film and it was later removed from you tube, but as he had not broken the law the police had no reason to hold him.
He later carried out the attack and killed himself.
Other students described him as a normal guy with normal friends.
Just say he had been held in custody or tracked down and maybe shot by armed police before he had a chance to commit the deed. Can you imagine how the human rights campaigners would be baying for police blood now? Just as many people are now blaming 'clueless ineffective policing' for letting him go.
He had put film of himself at a shooting range on you tube apparently issuing threats.
He was interviewed by police on Monday about the film and it was later removed from you tube, but as he had not broken the law the police had no reason to hold him.
He later carried out the attack and killed himself.
Other students described him as a normal guy with normal friends.
Just say he had been held in custody or tracked down and maybe shot by armed police before he had a chance to commit the deed. Can you imagine how the human rights campaigners would be baying for police blood now? Just as many people are now blaming 'clueless ineffective policing' for letting him go.
-
kayleneaussie
- Posts: 9127
- Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:11 am
This has got to stop!
I heard on the news that it very easy to get guns over there....maybe they should tighten up the gun laws
FOC THREAD PART 1
This has got to stop!
The ease of getting a gun doesn't matter. Someone doing this only needs the one, and a box of ammunition. It's illegal to get that in England but there are still criminals who'll sell them.
As you say, Victoria, until he took the weapon to the site he'd committed no crime. By all means consider whether the police should have had him under observation. Arresting him when he'd committed no crime seems a bit pointless if they can't then hold him permanently. I suspect they could have withdrawn his gun licence but if he'd not done what he did afterwards it would have been just an unsupportable judgement call on their part.
What's needed, in order to totally prevent this, is either that nobody should have a desire to do it or that nobody should have the ability to pull it off. To stop it from being possible you'd need very wide-awake armed guards in all parts of every school in the country. Or you'd need to arm a large fraction of the students for self-defence and make it a legal requirement that they always carry a weapon.
I'd look at the common aspects of the people who behave this way. What do they have in common? An insatiable appetite for horror movies and violent computer games? What would it cost to ban horror movies and violent computer games from Finland for a generation and see if the massacres stop? That's the only option I can see to fulfil "nobody should have a desire to do it".
As you say, Victoria, until he took the weapon to the site he'd committed no crime. By all means consider whether the police should have had him under observation. Arresting him when he'd committed no crime seems a bit pointless if they can't then hold him permanently. I suspect they could have withdrawn his gun licence but if he'd not done what he did afterwards it would have been just an unsupportable judgement call on their part.
What's needed, in order to totally prevent this, is either that nobody should have a desire to do it or that nobody should have the ability to pull it off. To stop it from being possible you'd need very wide-awake armed guards in all parts of every school in the country. Or you'd need to arm a large fraction of the students for self-defence and make it a legal requirement that they always carry a weapon.
I'd look at the common aspects of the people who behave this way. What do they have in common? An insatiable appetite for horror movies and violent computer games? What would it cost to ban horror movies and violent computer games from Finland for a generation and see if the massacres stop? That's the only option I can see to fulfil "nobody should have a desire to do it".
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
SlipStream
- Posts: 17508
- Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:46 am
This has got to stop!
Odie;993526 wrote: just heard on the news today, some punk killed 10 students and himself at a schooli in Finland....................this has gotten way out of hand!
school shootings must be stopped some way!
School shooting in Finland
Radio Netherlands, Netherlands - 17 hours ago
by RNW Newsdesk A gunman at a school in the town of Kauhajoki, Western Finland, has opened fire, killing several people. Police are reporting that the ...
10 people dead after school shooting in Finland WNDU-TV
Death toll rises to 11 in Finland school shooting CBC.ca
Gunman kills 10 in Finland school shooting The Age
findingDulcinea - guardian.co.uk
so sorry the link didn't work again!
crazzy world:-6
school shootings must be stopped some way!
School shooting in Finland
Radio Netherlands, Netherlands - 17 hours ago
by RNW Newsdesk A gunman at a school in the town of Kauhajoki, Western Finland, has opened fire, killing several people. Police are reporting that the ...
10 people dead after school shooting in Finland WNDU-TV
Death toll rises to 11 in Finland school shooting CBC.ca
Gunman kills 10 in Finland school shooting The Age
findingDulcinea - guardian.co.uk
so sorry the link didn't work again!
crazzy world:-6
This has got to stop!
Its another one of these horrible events, and it underlines that it doesn't just happen in the USA either. It is dificult to know precisely what you can do about something that seems linked to our modern culture and lifestyle and seems to be motivating these young men to seek pathetic justification and some sort of morbid infantile "celebrity" by committing mass murder (before the usually inevitable suicide).
I suppose there are things specific to Finland which could be brought up in terms of well documented social isolation in a country where there are long winters, hard drinking, geographical isolation of communities, and a nordic culture that in the past has been noted for issues relating to suicide, melancholy and morbidism etc. Then there are the issues about the hunting culture and the readily availble access to firearms for impressionable young men in Finland.
However, that really misses the point, as I think as spot says there are much more general issues about why these events seem to becoming more commonplace, and young people seem to feel entitled to commit such atrocities because of their own feelings of inadequacy or isolation. Murder and killing is by no means new, mass killing is also by no means new, however there are some aspects of these school shootings that are definetly "of their time", and are disturbing.
To be honest, I really think the driving thing behind the psychology that leads to such acts is the general glorification of the individual and the romanticization of extreme violence and the use of guns as something "empowering" in our modern culture. That wedding to a collapse in the authority of old beliefs that tended to keep people's sense of personal entitlement in check has resulted in too many young men being willing to inflict terrible suffering and death on many people, simply because they think they have the right to do so somehow.
I suppose there are things specific to Finland which could be brought up in terms of well documented social isolation in a country where there are long winters, hard drinking, geographical isolation of communities, and a nordic culture that in the past has been noted for issues relating to suicide, melancholy and morbidism etc. Then there are the issues about the hunting culture and the readily availble access to firearms for impressionable young men in Finland.
However, that really misses the point, as I think as spot says there are much more general issues about why these events seem to becoming more commonplace, and young people seem to feel entitled to commit such atrocities because of their own feelings of inadequacy or isolation. Murder and killing is by no means new, mass killing is also by no means new, however there are some aspects of these school shootings that are definetly "of their time", and are disturbing.
To be honest, I really think the driving thing behind the psychology that leads to such acts is the general glorification of the individual and the romanticization of extreme violence and the use of guns as something "empowering" in our modern culture. That wedding to a collapse in the authority of old beliefs that tended to keep people's sense of personal entitlement in check has resulted in too many young men being willing to inflict terrible suffering and death on many people, simply because they think they have the right to do so somehow.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
This has got to stop!
spot;993550 wrote: You had some method in mind?
detectors at all schools!..............just like the airports have!
detectors at all schools!..............just like the airports have!
Life is just to short for drama.
This has got to stop!
kayleneaussie;993597 wrote: I heard on the news that it very easy to get guns over there....maybe they should tighten up the gun laws
Its easy to get guns them here also, and we have had at least 4 shootings in schools in the past 2 weeks.
and that is just Toronto!
Its easy to get guns them here also, and we have had at least 4 shootings in schools in the past 2 weeks.
and that is just Toronto!
Life is just to short for drama.
This has got to stop!
Odie;993723 wrote: detectors at all schools!..............just like the airports have!
Keep going. That involves an enforced perimeter and permanently staffed entrances, no way of throwing a package over the perimeter for retrieval once the person's inside, applied to every school building on every campus in the country. Let's say it added 20% to the educational budget of the country. You're insisting on redesigning every existing campus and performing huge building works, employing another dozen staff at each site and the end result is a whole bunch of children looking for loopholes that would allow an attack. You're setting a challenge, not making it clear that killing unarmed innocents is unacceptable! Every school will end up with a small pack of malcontents discussing how useless the protection is and how easy it would be to bypass. I bet you'd get more events, not fewer.
Keep going. That involves an enforced perimeter and permanently staffed entrances, no way of throwing a package over the perimeter for retrieval once the person's inside, applied to every school building on every campus in the country. Let's say it added 20% to the educational budget of the country. You're insisting on redesigning every existing campus and performing huge building works, employing another dozen staff at each site and the end result is a whole bunch of children looking for loopholes that would allow an attack. You're setting a challenge, not making it clear that killing unarmed innocents is unacceptable! Every school will end up with a small pack of malcontents discussing how useless the protection is and how easy it would be to bypass. I bet you'd get more events, not fewer.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
This has got to stop!
spot;993737 wrote: Keep going. That involves an enforced perimeter and permanently staffed entrances, no way of throwing a package over the perimeter for retrieval once the person's inside, applied to every school building on every campus in the country. Let's say it added 20% to the educational budget of the country. You're insisting on redesigning every existing campus and performing huge building works, employing another dozen staff at each site and the end result is a whole bunch of children looking for loopholes that would allow an attack. You're setting a challenge, not making it clear that killing unarmed innocents is unacceptable! Every school will end up with a small pack of malcontents discussing how useless the protection is and how easy it would be to bypass. I bet you'd get more events, not fewer.
even with cops now at schools its still happening!
got any ideas?
even with cops now at schools its still happening!
got any ideas?
Life is just to short for drama.
This has got to stop!
Odie;993757 wrote: even with cops now at schools its still happening!
got any ideas?
I'd look at the common aspects of the people who behave this way. What do they have in common? An insatiable appetite for horror movies and violent computer games? What would it cost to ban horror movies and violent computer games from Finland for a generation and see if the massacres stop? That's the only option I can see to fulfil "nobody should have a desire to do it".
got any ideas?
I'd look at the common aspects of the people who behave this way. What do they have in common? An insatiable appetite for horror movies and violent computer games? What would it cost to ban horror movies and violent computer games from Finland for a generation and see if the massacres stop? That's the only option I can see to fulfil "nobody should have a desire to do it".
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
This has got to stop!
spot;993759 wrote: I'd look at the common aspects of the people who behave this way. What do they have in common? An insatiable appetite for horror movies and violent computer games? What would it cost to ban horror movies and violent computer games from Finland for a generation and see if the massacres stop? That's the only option I can see to fulfil "nobody should have a desire to do it".
Finland and everywhere else would never ban those..............companies make millions on that crap!
Was just shocked to see now other countries have the same goings on as Canada and the US......................
what a sad sad world this has now become.
Finland and everywhere else would never ban those..............companies make millions on that crap!
Was just shocked to see now other countries have the same goings on as Canada and the US......................
what a sad sad world this has now become.
Life is just to short for drama.
This has got to stop!
Either it's a price you're prepared to pay for allowing school-aged children to spend hundreds of hours honing their skills and reflexes at killing people in cyberspace or you protect school-aged children from exposure to the filth, which involves effective policing. I blame the parents who think it's normal to allow their children to get addicted. It's not a matter of civil liberties when it involves the under-aged any more than it would be if they wanted to rent their bodies for cash.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
This has got to stop!
spot;993771 wrote: Either it's a price you're prepared to pay for allowing school-aged children to spend hundreds of hours honing their skills and reflexes at killing people in cyberspace or you protect school-aged children from exposure to the filth, which involves effective policing. I blame the parents who think it's normal to allow their children to get addicted. It's not a matter of civil liberties when it involves the under-aged any more than it would be if they wanted to rent their bodies for cash.
I blame the parents as well, those violent video games, by god, no wonder they have ideas now!........and the internet alone!:-5
they never had those ideas before!
I blame the parents as well, those violent video games, by god, no wonder they have ideas now!........and the internet alone!:-5
they never had those ideas before!
Life is just to short for drama.
This has got to stop!
Odie;993780 wrote: they never had those ideas before!Name me a decade and I'll show you what they did instead. All that aggression came out in the 50s and 60s in England, for example, by driving in large groups of motorcycles or scooters, wearing leathers and helmets or padded zoot suits, and laying into the other side with drive chains and steel bars. Then there were the blacks for when disagreeing about music got boring. Back then it was more of a group activity, violence. The video games have made it more of a loner sport. Maybe now they've gone online war-gaming we might see the gangs back on the streets, and the schools will stop being the killing grounds?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
This has got to stop!
As a scheme for a home room it's neat. It's not a teaching environment though. No child's going to learn calculus when half the class is still learning how to divide. You've no capability for taking the class into a science lab - do schoolchildren still have titration, precipitation, purification, collection and assay in normal US schools, out of interest? Do they still get marked on the proportion of the theoretical yield they manage to collect? Sorry, that's a diversion, it was the image of seven year olds doing that alongside rather taller seventeen year olds and all wearing white lab coats and protective goggles. It's a great way to teach bright children!
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
This has got to stop!
I say charge the legal guardians of these shooters with murder. The kid is their responsibility.
Of course that would involve dealing with the facts, its easier to just envoke more worthless laws and pat themselves on the back.
Of course that would involve dealing with the facts, its easier to just envoke more worthless laws and pat themselves on the back.
"Sometimes it's entirely appropriate to kill a fly with a sledgehammer"
This has got to stop!
Erik;1050320 wrote: I say charge the legal guardians of these shooters with murder. The kid is their responsibility.The gunman was a 22-year-old culinary arts student, Matti Juhani Saari. How can you possibly hold his parents accountable for his actions?
Kimveer Gill was 25, Valery Fabrikant was 52, Marc Lepine was 25, the list of adult killers on school or college campuses is perhaps larger than you realize.
Kimveer Gill was 25, Valery Fabrikant was 52, Marc Lepine was 25, the list of adult killers on school or college campuses is perhaps larger than you realize.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
This has got to stop!
spot;1050751 wrote: The gunman was a 22-year-old culinary arts student, Matti Juhani Saari. How can you possibly hold his parents accountable for his actions?
Kimveer Gill was 25, Valery Fabrikant was 52, Marc Lepine was 25, the list of adult killers on school or college campuses is perhaps larger than you realize.
I was refering to minors. There are already plenty of laws in place for dealing with someone like this, more are not needed.
Kimveer Gill was 25, Valery Fabrikant was 52, Marc Lepine was 25, the list of adult killers on school or college campuses is perhaps larger than you realize.
I was refering to minors. There are already plenty of laws in place for dealing with someone like this, more are not needed.
"Sometimes it's entirely appropriate to kill a fly with a sledgehammer"
This has got to stop!
Erik;1050799 wrote: I was refering to minors. There are already plenty of laws in place for dealing with someone like this, more are not needed.
But the thread's *about* Matti Juhani Saari and what he did in Finland!
Most school massacres are committed by adults.
But the thread's *about* Matti Juhani Saari and what he did in Finland!
Most school massacres are committed by adults.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
This has got to stop!
spot;1051327 wrote: But the thread's *about* Matti Juhani Saari and what he did in Finland!
Most school massacres are committed by adults.
I don't think he had seen it from the beginning like we did.
he's still a newbie.
Most school massacres are committed by adults.
I don't think he had seen it from the beginning like we did.
he's still a newbie.
Life is just to short for drama.
This has got to stop!
Odie;1051338 wrote: I don't think he had seen it from the beginning like we did.
he's still a newbie.
I was rather distressed by his "already plenty of laws in place for dealing with someone like this" as though prosecuting and sentencing are important but prevention isn't. As far as I'm concerned, prevention is way higher on the list of desirable ends. What's in place to effectively prevent school massacres? You can scarcely deter these people if suicide is one of their goals. A consistent humiliating failure among their predecessors to achieve a high score would be a deterrent.
he's still a newbie.
I was rather distressed by his "already plenty of laws in place for dealing with someone like this" as though prosecuting and sentencing are important but prevention isn't. As far as I'm concerned, prevention is way higher on the list of desirable ends. What's in place to effectively prevent school massacres? You can scarcely deter these people if suicide is one of their goals. A consistent humiliating failure among their predecessors to achieve a high score would be a deterrent.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.