Hypocritical Native Americans

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Jives
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Post by Jives »

I live next to the largest Indian Reservation in the country, the Navajo Reservation. Like many reservations, alcohol is outlawed on the reservation. Like many native races, Indians have a love of alcohol and the lack of genetics to cope with the alcohol sugars.

The result is a DWI problem that, like the population of the reservation, is staggering. In our paper every day is a list of the latest twenty of thirty DWI's the vast majority of which are native Americans. Most are on their 3rd or 4th, some are as high as their 15th offense. One grandmother recently was pulled over with a 0.35 BAC. (That should have been lethal, yet the officers said she was coherent.)

last year New mexico had literally dozens of DWI related fatalities, so we decided to do something. We passed a mandatory ignition interlock law for first offenders. The problem?

It doesn't apply on the reservation. Worse yet, the reservation does not report previous DWIs to the state. An Indian can get 5 DWIs on the reservation, then get one in town and it''s counted as the 1st.

They say it's all about their 'sovereignity". I say that's a cop out. They need to:

1. Admit there's a problem.

2. Cooperate with the sate in reporting.

3. Enforce state DWI laws on the reservation.

After all, it's their people who are dying too.

So in this thread, go ahead and discuss Native Americans and alcohol, double standards, or even the legality of a 1st time offender interlock law.

As for me....I'm calling them hypocrites, and I'm not going for any "pity" defense concerning their past.:cool:
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Post by lady cop »

Jives, not meaning to be simplistic because it is not a simplistic issue, i would offer that there are some truths in some cliches, due to genes, cultures and histories.
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Clint
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Post by Clint »

Driving is a privilege, not a right. Doesn’t sovereignty just apply to the reservation? Is their sovereignty now being extended to anyplace they happen to be? EVERYONE who exercises the privilege drive should be held to the contract they enter into when they accepted their license to drive.
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Explain ignition interlock, please.
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Post by Jives »

Sure thing, Accountable. An ignition interlock is a device that is installed in the car at the cost of the criminal, that prevents the car from being started if the user's blood alcohol level is above 0.08.

To start the car, you have to blow into a tube. If alcohol is detected, the car just won't start. Better yet, the device has to be reset at random intervals during the drive, so having someone blow into it for you may get it started, but unless they are with you in the car the whole time, you won't get very far.

The newer models can even detect your personal DNA, so that you can't use others at all.

The cost is about $1000 for installation, and it has to be recalibrated about every three months.
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valerie
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Post by valerie »

I'm with you 100% on this one. I've had very little personal experience

with this, but my sister is a nurse and her former husband was a police

officer. The little town in Idaho where they lived was close to the reservation

and they had multiple problems with this. My former bro-in-law would bring

the Indians with DUI's into the ER (since in many cases, they had hit a

tree or some such) and the docs and my sister would patch them up. All

usually on the taxpayer's dime. I think if they are going to use that much of

services and pose that great of a danger to off-reservation people and

things, then they lose that part of their protection from being of a

"sovereign nation". They just have to, in my opinion.



Problem comes when you try and figure out the ways and means of

taking care of the problem. It will be even more expense, long court

battles and an awful lot of uproar from all sides.
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chonsigirl
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Post by chonsigirl »

http://ncadi.samhsa.gov/govpubs/prevalert/v5/10.aspx

You are addressing multiple issues here, Jives.

1. drinking and Native Americans

2. legal problems from this drinking (DUI's, and others)

3. sovereignty

4. ethics: double standard

Alcoholism has been a problem with Native American and other groups. It seems to be their "drug" of choice. The reporting of a DUI is addressing two separate legal systems: tribal v. state. There are separate courts, don't have to keep each court informed. If a native is picked up on the rez by tribal policem they have their own court system. Sanctioned by the Department of the Interior. This is where sovereignty enters the arena, and since Native American have continually had their sovereign rights eroded over the years, by an oppressive government, why should they tell that court? The double standard lies there, with the federal government.
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Clint
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Post by Clint »

chonsigirl wrote: http://ncadi.samhsa.gov/govpubs/prevalert/v5/10.aspx

You are addressing multiple issues here, Jives.

1. drinking and Native Americans

2. legal problems from this drinking (DUI's, and others)

3. sovereignty

4. ethics: double standard

Alcoholism has been a problem with Native American and other groups. It seems to be their "drug" of choice. The reporting of a DUI is addressing two separate legal systems: tribal v. state. There are separate courts, don't have to keep each court informed. If a native is picked up on the rez by tribal policem they have their own court system. Sanctioned by the Department of the Interior. This is where sovereignty enters the arena, and since Native American have continually had their sovereign rights eroded over the years, by an oppressive government, why should they tell that court? The double standard lies there, with the federal government.
I don’t get it. How does sovereignty give anyone the right to drink, drive and endanger another’s life?
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abbey
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Post by abbey »

What is DWI? (thick Brit)
Jives
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Post by Jives »

DWI - Driving While Intoxicated. :D Darn acronyms, eh Abbey?

But realistically, Abbey, people who get DWIs aren't usually just a little tipsy, were talking about people here who are so drunk they can't tell which side of the road they're on, and can't see the road anyway.
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Clint wrote: I don’t get it. How does sovereignty give anyone the right to drink, drive and endanger another’s life?
Purely a guess: I think it's something similar to diplomatic immunity.
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Clint
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Post by Clint »

Accountable wrote: Purely a guess: I think it's something similar to diplomatic immunity.
Could be but rather than a few diplomats, we are talking about every citizen of the class.
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chonsigirl
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Post by chonsigirl »

Jives is asking about multiple issues in his post: Sovereignty is how independent native tribes/bands/organizations are viewed by the United States or state governments. I listed 4 possible points of discussion from his point. Some intercross each other in thier direction, some do not. I will write my understanding on native sovereignty tonight after my son let's go of the computer-just a synopsis I promise, not a lecture. Bare-bones outline, with appropriate links.

*innocent look*
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

chonsigirl wrote: Jives is asking about multiple issues in his post: Sovereignty is how independent native tribes/bands/organizations are viewed by the United States or state governments. I listed 4 possible points of discussion from his point. Some intercross each other in thier direction, some do not. I will write my understanding on native sovereignty tonight after my son let's go of the computer-just a synopsis I promise, not a lecture. Bare-bones outline, with appropriate links.

*innocent look*
All right. But you should know I have a current copy of the APA book on thesis formats.
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chonsigirl
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Post by chonsigirl »

*laughing at AC's comments*

That's about it-it is lengthy, but heh, if you don't want to read it, you don't have to.

It is just some of the legal precendents for native sovereignty. There are numerous more cases you can pull up. I just took the notes from my exam, and put in some links if you want to read the cases.



“This tribal sovereign status was not delegated to the tribes by the courts, the federal government, or the states. It is original and inherent, though it has been directedly impacted by various federal and state laws, policies and regulations. Tribal sovereignty has been recognized by several European nations; the federal government through hundreds of treaties, nearly 400 of which were ratified by the Senate and proclaimed by the President and by the states, who were forced to concede that as a result of the Commerce Clause of the Constitution, they lacked authority to deal with tribal nations. Thus, fundamentally, the tribal relationship to the United States is a political one, although it is a relationship affected by tribal culture.” David E. Wilkins, American Indian Sovereignty and the U.S. Supreme Court, p. 21.

Prior to the establishment of the United States, the British had completed treaties with native groups treating them as independent sovereign nations. This practice continued after 1776 into the time period of the Articles of Confederation

Northwest Ordinance of 1787 the federal government would never violate the rights or properties of tribes without their consent

Fletcher v. Peck: (1810)http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/supct ... 87_ZS.html

Chief Justice Marshall remarked on the fact that Indian reserved land in the way of expanding white settlement was merely a “temporary arrangement.” Indian sovereignty was “diminished” and that Indian tribes were only “occupying” lands which the United States owned.

Johnson v. McIntosh: (1823)

Federal authority was called “plenary” when dealing with tribal governments.

Cherokee Nation v. Georgia (1831)http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/g ... =30&page=1

The Cherokees were a state, “a distinct political society, separated from others, capable of managing its own affairs and governing itself.” They became a “domestic dependent nation”, in a “state of pupilage,” with the “relation…of a ward to a guardian” to underscore the superior-inferior relationship.

Worcester v. Georgia: (1832)http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/g ... 1&page=515

Cherokee Nation a distinct community, occupying its own territory with boundaries, Georgia had no force to make the Cherokees remove

President Jackson disobeyed the Supreme Court and fot

U.S. v. Rogers: (1846)

Congress could legislate for both white and Indian crimes in the Indian Territory in spite of the treaty recognition of the latter’s independence.

The Cherokee Tobacco: (1870)http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/g ... &invol=616

Court’s recognition of congressional power to modify an Indian treaty and to pass an act in violation of the treaty, “as if the treaty were not an element to be considered.”

The Court announced that the Indian was outside the 14th Amendment guarantees, but emphasized the inviolability of past treaty obligations.

Standing Bear v. Crook: (1879)

Court ruled that Native Americans are people, but it did not immediately or permanently alter the way in which the federal government dealt with Indians.

Ex Parte Crow Dog: (1883)(book on the case, very good, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books

Indians, “had always been…wards subject to a guardian”.

Elks v. Wilkins: (1884)

An individual Indian could not become a citizen without a special congressional enactment.

U.S. v. Kagama: (1886)http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/g ... &invol=375

Indians were wholly dependent on the United States, stressing the necessity for the federal government to appropriate tribal government functions such as jurisdiction over homicide.

Choctaw Nation v. U.S.: (1886)

The native/federal government relationship was one of a “superior to an inferior.”

Elks, Kagama and Choctaw Nation expanded federal intervention in tribal governmental affairs and lessened self-governance for the Indians.

Lone Wolf v. Hitchcock: (1903)http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/g ... 3Excellent book on this case: Lone Wolf v. Hitchcock by Blue Clark

Indian as a dependent ward was unprotected by outmoded treaty guarantees.

For thirty years the doctrine of guardianship dominated Indian affairs and remains an often-quoted precedent down to the present time.

United States v. Nice: (1916)http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/g ... &invol=591

U.S. citizenship could be granted to tribal people or those who were living with guardians. Three years later U.S. citizenship was granted to Native Americans who had served in the armed forces during WWI. In 1924 citizenship was conferred to all Native Americans, although some states withheld state citizenship.

Washington v. McCoy: (1963)

State had the right to regulate fishing on the basis of conservation.

Puyallup Tribe v. Department of Game: (1968)http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/g ... 4&invol=44

Supreme Court ruled in favor of Indian fishing rights as outlined in the Medicine Creek Treaty, but it did not deal with the questions involved in the fishing issue.

Santa Clara Pueblo v. Martinez: (1978)http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/g ... 6&invol=49

Tribe not bound by the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment, tribal membership could be denied to descendants who had married outside of the pueblo.

NATIONAL FARMERS UNION INS. COMPANIES v. CROW TRIBE OF INDIANS , 468 U.S. 1315 (1984)

"To be sure, Indian Tribes retain inherent sovereign power to exercise some forms of civil jurisdiction over non-Indians on their reservations, even on non-Indian fee lands. A tribe may regulate, through taxation, [468 U.S. 1315 , 1322] licensing, or other means, the activities of nonmembers who enter consensual relationships with the tribe or its members, through commercial dealings, contracts, leases, or other arrangements. . . . A tribe may also retain inherent power to exercise civil authority over the conduct of non-Indians on fee lands within its reservation when that conduct threatens or has some direct effect on the political integrity, the economic security, or the health or welfare of the tribe



From Vine Deloria, Lyttle, American Indians, American Justice

The courts recognized that the past exploitation of the Indians could not be sanctioned by the force of law and hence developed a set of judicial rules by which to deal with these problems. Among the important rules of construction are:

1. Ambiguities in treaties are to be constructed in favor of the Indian claimant.

2. Indian treaties are to be interpreted as the Indians would have understood them.

3. Indian treaties are to be liberally construed in favor of the Indians.

4. Treaties reserve to Indians all rights that have not been granted away (reserved rights doctrine).

a. used in the area of water rights

b. Winters v. U.S. (1908): U.S. examined the possible expectations that must have been present in the minds of Indians and federal officials
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chonsigirl
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Post by chonsigirl »

Of course dear Far, just a few links-I know the cases are long. I wanted a time table to illustrate the change in federal policy towards Native Americans on the subject of sovereignty, and this is just a skeleton outline.

(yes, I do really read this stuff all the time, and have fun looking into cases)

But I still post funny stuff elsewhere!
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Post by nvalleyvee »

Jives - I live one block from the Santa Ana Reservation - 3 miles from the Sandia Reservation - 10 miles from the Zia and 15 miles from the Jemez and Cochiti. When I see alcoholics walking down the road - I go in the house because I don't like to be asked for handouts. When I wake up and they are asleep in my front yard - I yearn for a real fence and then call the sheriff. When I drive - I am constantly aware of other drivers. Unfortunately, it isn't just the Native Americans on the road driving drunk. They can do what they like on the reservation and there is nothing we can do - it is only when they step off their soveriegn nation they are under State law and as you well know 550 and 666 are two of the most dangerous highways in NM because of their links to the reservations and shopping centers. I feel very reluctant to put ALL NA's in a class of alcoholics and diabetics as the alcoholic behaviour of so few give them all a bad name.
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Post by Nomad »

They say it's all about their 'sovereignity





Sorry......thats the bottom line !



I do not support drunk driving, I do however FULLY support the American Indians rights as a free, seperate and sovereign nation. Its the least we can do. (the very least)
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Post by cars »

I live fairly close to two Indian Reservations. Where the Indians on these reservations feed the Whiteman, & any other race all the alchohol they want & and even more than they can handle. Not giving any concern if/when these people will be driving home DWI. At the same time while they are at it, these Indians also take as much money from these people as they possibly can. So it breaks down to the individual's having to take responsibility for their own actions, because no one else will or should. Everyone knows no matter what race, if they drink too much alcohol they will get drunk. As far as sovereignity goes, that should/must end at the end of the tribal reservation. When Indiands are outside of their reservation, the laws of the common majority must apply!!

(Oh bye the way, the two multi-Billion dollar Indian Reservations I live near are: Foxwoods, & Mohegun Sun)
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Post by rainbowsmiles »

Considering my step-mother is Sioux I take your post personally and it was offending to say the least.

Like many native races, Indians have a love of alcohol and the lack of genetics to cope with the alcohol sugars.


First of all, natives don't have a LOVE of alcohol. Many of them have chosen to pick up the bottle because of a desperate need to drown out their sorrows. A good share of native americans suffer from depression. Not only do they face descrimination (still today) they are also looked upon, in many areas, as second class citizens because of their financial status in society. The only difference for a native picking up a bottle as opposed to a "white man" is that they are more susceptible to its effects. They are genetically predisposed to an addiction.

Also, making the snide remark about having "pity" for their past is also disrespectful and uncalled for. You could have clearly made your point without it!

If you don't like the way the laws are laid out then maybe you should write to your federal government. Or take up your problems with the BIA!

You want to ignore the past but the present issue has everything to do with the past! The natives of this country were given sloppy pieces of land across America after the majority was taken away from them. Why shouldn't they have their own laws and govern their own people? It is their right! I personally feel they've earned it. Maybe the problem is the "white" liquor store owners setting up shop near the reservation just so they can make a buck! Why don't you work on getting rid of those ;)
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Post by Nomad »

Right On Sister

Im With You All The Way On This One !
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Post by rainbowsmiles »

Thank you Nomad! I appreciate that :)
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Post by Nomad »

2 arms 2 legs and all that

Men are created equal....that is unless its the US govt dealing with the American Indian nations
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Post by nvalleyvee »

Hey RS - do you think there is a correlation between alcoholism and diabetes in the Native American population? I do. I also agree that a few people give an entire race a really bad name. I am not educated about the depression rate among NA's. I do know their land land was taken and many were forced off of their chosen - spirit given land. THat is why the guilty white government made their lands sovereign.
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Post by Nomad »

Their lands ? HA !



parcels more like it



and what a lovely gesture on their part !
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Post by nvalleyvee »

Nomad wrote: Theyre lands ? HA !



parcels more like it



and what a lovely gesture on their part !


You are sooooooo sarcastic - thank-you very much for correcting me. ;)
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Nomad
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Post by Nomad »

Thats not directed at you sweety its just my overall sentiment about the whole show.
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Post by BTS »

Nomad wrote: 2 arms 2 legs and all that

Men are created equal....that is unless its the US govt dealing with the American Indian nations


Gee Nom........... Hope you are not taken out by a drunk at 3:00 AM cuttin thru New Mexico............

I know settin at that fine computer station and beautiful lake view, that you have NO idea what is going on out in New Mexico. (love how you YANKEES can run the country from afar) (ain't we FLY BY country?)



We have SOOOOOOOOOOOO many repeat offenders being arrested and released it sickens the mind.



And yes we are created equal. You just have to try and be equal and stop crying about how they were wronged. If you want I can show you a little income they recieve from oh say.........Casinos and oil rights. It is not as bad as you YANKEES think it is. Only as bad as you want to make it in your limited mind...........



HAPPY cruising across the Pueblos of NM................. I'll keep the ambulance on ooops Lite on for yah
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Post by chonsigirl »

The link to Native lands..................

http://www.cr.nps.gov/nagpra/DOCUMENTS/ClaimsMAP.htm
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Post by Nomad »

Dude I live in Minnesota...just about every town, lake and county has an Indian name to it, we have reservations too.

I did say Im not pro drunk driving...Im a recovering alcoholic myself so I know something about what your saying.

I specified my sentiments were directed at the sovereign nation aspect.
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Post by nvalleyvee »

Nomad wrote: Thats not directed at you sweety its just my overall sentiment about the whole show.


I did not take it personally...........sweetie
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Post by rainbowsmiles »

Native Americans have the highest rate of depression of all the races in the U.S. (36% is what the statistics are showing). No wonder there are so many natives consuming alcoholic beverages. They are not drinking because they are happy.

And I could give 30000 reason why they have NOT to be happy but it would be pointless.

I think what is disappointing to me is that there are still people in present day America that can judge an entire race based on just a few people. Yes, there are bad Native Americans. There are also bad caucasions, bad african americans, bad latinos, etc... But it doesn't mean they are "all" bad.
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Post by Nomad »

nvalleyvee wrote: I did not take it personally...........sweetie


Is it sweety or sweetie ? :-2
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Post by Nomad »

I think what is disappointing to me is that there are still people in present day America that can judge an entire race based on just a few people. Yes, there are bad Native Americans. There are also bad caucasions, bad african americans, bad latinos, etc... But it doesn't mean they are "all" bad.





AMEN !

Pick a color
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Post by nvalleyvee »

nvalleyvee wrote: Jives - I live one block from the Santa Ana Reservation - 3 miles from the Sandia Reservation - 10 miles from the Zia and 15 miles from the Jemez and Cochiti. When I see alcoholics walking down the road - I go in the house because I don't like to be asked for handouts. When I wake up and they are asleep in my front yard - I yearn for a real fence and then call the sheriff. When I drive - I am constantly aware of other drivers. Unfortunately, it isn't just the Native Americans on the road driving drunk. They can do what they like on the reservation and there is nothing we can do - it is only when they step off their soveriegn nation they are under State law and as you well know 550 and 666 are two of the most dangerous highways in NM because of their links to the reservations and shopping centers. I feel very reluctant to put ALL NA's in a class of alcoholics and diabetics as the alcoholic behaviour of so few give them all a bad name.


That was my point Rainbow.
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Post by nvalleyvee »

Nomad wrote: I think what is disappointing to me is that there are still people in present day America that can judge an entire race based on just a few people. Yes, there are bad Native Americans. There are also bad caucasions, bad african americans, bad latinos, etc... But it doesn't mean they are "all" bad.





AMEN !

Pick a color


OH Geez - you made me pick white as the worst race :o
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Post by rainbowsmiles »

If you want I can show you a little income they recieve from oh say.........Casinos and oil rights.


Actually, Im very aware how much money they make. But I'd bet you DON'T have a clue. I also know how much they donate! Do you? I also know how much they contribute to cities for reconstructing roads and buildings... do you?

But it doesn't surprise me that you'd bring up the Casinos... now at least we all know what got you HEATED in the first place! ;)
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Post by rainbowsmiles »

I'm sorry nvalleyvee! I had missed that. I saw the first post and just responded. Sorry.
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Post by MicahLorain »

Is NM still the leader in alcohol related crashes per capita?? Could it be all the David Dukers 'guarding' the border?:rolleyes:
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Post by Nomad »

rainbowsmiles wrote: Actually, Im very aware how much money they make. But I'd bet you DON'T have a clue. I also know how much they donate! Do you? I also know how much they contribute to cities for reconstructing roads and buildings... do you?



But it doesn't surprise me that you'd bring up the Casinos... now at least we all know what got you HEATED in the first place! ;)






Casinos ? So what ?

Is Las Vegas able to turn a profit ? Yes of course.

Half the states have some form of gambling now.
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Post by rainbowsmiles »

Are you asking me Nomad?
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Post by rainbowsmiles »

Dude I live in Minnesota...just about every town, lake and county has an Indian name to it, we have reservations too.


OMG, so do I! :D
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nvalleyvee
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Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:57 am

Hypocritical Native Americans

Post by nvalleyvee »

rainbowsmiles wrote: I'm sorry nvalleyvee! I had missed that. I saw the first post and just responded. Sorry.


I just hate to see any race classified. There are many here who agree with you. :-4
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
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nvalleyvee
Posts: 5191
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:57 am

Hypocritical Native Americans

Post by nvalleyvee »

MicahLorain wrote: Is NM still the leader in alcohol related crashes per capita?? Could it be all the David Dukers 'guarding' the border?:rolleyes:


You betcha... so sad - but there are only a small percentage that are NA's--- go f'ing figure.
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
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Nomad
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Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:36 am

Hypocritical Native Americans

Post by Nomad »

rainbowsmiles wrote: OMG, so do I! :D


UH OH !

Did I say Minnesota ?

I meant









I meant er.......Minnechagan
I AM AWESOME MAN
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nvalleyvee
Posts: 5191
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:57 am

Hypocritical Native Americans

Post by nvalleyvee »

Nomad wrote: UH OH !

Did I say Minnesota ?

I meant









I meant er.......Minnechagan


Back peddler.......
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
rainbowsmiles
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:55 pm

Hypocritical Native Americans

Post by rainbowsmiles »

^ Very funny :yh_shame
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