wildhorses;1070820 wrote: You have a good point. Many of the deaths were not British or American. In fact many of the hostages taken were not British or American either. Also it seems to me that originally I heard a report that the attackers came in by sea and the boat had explosives on it? But then later I heard that they came across the border from Pakistan. I know that it is chaotic over there right now. But it seems odd to have reports that are so completely different.
I think there is so much chaos, it's made worse by a long line of people coming on tv speculating this and that. I suppose we will just have to see when the dust settles.
I think it's right that they picked an odd area to target American and British. It doesn't add up does it?
British and American hostages taken in India
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British and American hostages taken in India
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
British and American hostages taken in India
wildhorses;1070820 wrote: Many of the deaths were not British or American.What a curious way of putting it. News may change, of course, but the current report is that one was Australian, one held a UK passport and none at all were American. One would expect those figures to rise but they don't indicate an all-out attack on Western visitors to me.
Claiming that foreigners were being deliberately targeted takes the focus away from local Hindu/Muslim relations, which aren't exactly perfect. Islamic bombings in Mumbai go back to 1993 when 250 people died and 700 were injured. Those deaths were in retaliation for a "widespread massacre of Muslims in Mumbai during December and January" and for the destruction of one of the largest mosques in Uttar Pradesh the previous year. Another bombing in Mumbai happened ten years later on the anniversary of the mosque being torn down.
Local groups carried out the last ten outrages, I don't see why this one's any different at first glance.
Claiming that foreigners were being deliberately targeted takes the focus away from local Hindu/Muslim relations, which aren't exactly perfect. Islamic bombings in Mumbai go back to 1993 when 250 people died and 700 were injured. Those deaths were in retaliation for a "widespread massacre of Muslims in Mumbai during December and January" and for the destruction of one of the largest mosques in Uttar Pradesh the previous year. Another bombing in Mumbai happened ten years later on the anniversary of the mosque being torn down.
Local groups carried out the last ten outrages, I don't see why this one's any different at first glance.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
British and American hostages taken in India
oscar;1070695 wrote: Blimey!!!!!!!! It all sounds highly organised. If it's pakistan, it's highly likely it is the Mujahadeen.
It;'s not likely to be pakistan both india and pakistan have nuclear weapons and armies ready to go. All out war is hardly something they would want to provoke with india.
It's terrorists not a nation state behind this.
It;'s not likely to be pakistan both india and pakistan have nuclear weapons and armies ready to go. All out war is hardly something they would want to provoke with india.
It's terrorists not a nation state behind this.
British and American hostages taken in India
gmc;1070858 wrote: It's terrorists not a nation state behind this.Would you describe the Hindus who destroyed the Babri Mosque as terrorists, just so we can get a handle on the terminology?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
British and American hostages taken in India
now, 200 dead.
By Mark Magnier
November 30, 2008
REPORTING FROM MUMBAI, INDIA -- In normal times, money drives Mumbai. And even as police detonated grenades they removed Saturday from the last redoubt of a terrorist band, residents fretted about the effects of three days of violence on the seething energy that unites rich and poor, Hindu and Muslim in India's commercial capital.
By targeting two luxury hotels, a restaurant popular with tourists and a Jewish center, the attackers appeared intent on destroying Mumbai's economic lifeblood, driving away foreign investors and tourists, analysts said.
With police saying they had killed the last of the attackers in the vast reaches of the Taj Mahal Palace & Tower hotel early Saturday, Mumbai residents reached for their ginger tea and morning bread with a measure of relief. Their chaotic city, home of India's film industry, known as Bollywood, and some of the world's most expensive real estate, is proud of its ability to bounce back.
Official estimates of the death toll from the attacks climbed to 195 on Saturday, including 20 soldiers and police officers. Eighteen foreigners were reported to be among the dead. They included six with U.S. citizenship: three at the Chabad-Lubavitch Jewish center, a man and his daughter on a spiritual pilgrimage, and one person who has not been identified.
A team of FBI agents was on the way to Mumbai.
"As the people of the world's largest democracy recover from these attacks, they can count on the people of the world's oldest democracy to stand by their side," President Bush said.
A few miles from the Crawford Market, police were going through the Taj hotel, looking for booby traps and removing bodies. Bedsheets that desperate hostages used to escape still were hanging from window frames.
Fire and police officials took explosives left by the attackers to the seaside promenade to be detonated. Massive blasts echoed off the 103-year-old, 540-room building, and sent flocks of startled pigeons skyward.
Jay Makhijani watched as police carefully removed a box from the hotel and detonated the leftover grenades. He runs high-end jewelry shops in the Taj and the Oberoi, the other hotel that was attacked.
He hadn't been to either since Wednesday, and said he was worried about the damage.
An optimist by nature, however, the Mumbai native said he believed the city and his stores would bounce back soon.
"If the restaurant was open in the Oberoi tonight, I'd go there for dinner," Makhijani said. "That's how badly I want things to return to normal."
It might take longer to restore trust between India's Hindu majority and Muslim minority. Officials have suggested that Islamic militant groups based in rival Pakistan who were responsible for previous attacks in India were responsible for this one.
By Mark Magnier
November 30, 2008
REPORTING FROM MUMBAI, INDIA -- In normal times, money drives Mumbai. And even as police detonated grenades they removed Saturday from the last redoubt of a terrorist band, residents fretted about the effects of three days of violence on the seething energy that unites rich and poor, Hindu and Muslim in India's commercial capital.
By targeting two luxury hotels, a restaurant popular with tourists and a Jewish center, the attackers appeared intent on destroying Mumbai's economic lifeblood, driving away foreign investors and tourists, analysts said.
With police saying they had killed the last of the attackers in the vast reaches of the Taj Mahal Palace & Tower hotel early Saturday, Mumbai residents reached for their ginger tea and morning bread with a measure of relief. Their chaotic city, home of India's film industry, known as Bollywood, and some of the world's most expensive real estate, is proud of its ability to bounce back.
Official estimates of the death toll from the attacks climbed to 195 on Saturday, including 20 soldiers and police officers. Eighteen foreigners were reported to be among the dead. They included six with U.S. citizenship: three at the Chabad-Lubavitch Jewish center, a man and his daughter on a spiritual pilgrimage, and one person who has not been identified.
A team of FBI agents was on the way to Mumbai.
"As the people of the world's largest democracy recover from these attacks, they can count on the people of the world's oldest democracy to stand by their side," President Bush said.
A few miles from the Crawford Market, police were going through the Taj hotel, looking for booby traps and removing bodies. Bedsheets that desperate hostages used to escape still were hanging from window frames.
Fire and police officials took explosives left by the attackers to the seaside promenade to be detonated. Massive blasts echoed off the 103-year-old, 540-room building, and sent flocks of startled pigeons skyward.
Jay Makhijani watched as police carefully removed a box from the hotel and detonated the leftover grenades. He runs high-end jewelry shops in the Taj and the Oberoi, the other hotel that was attacked.
He hadn't been to either since Wednesday, and said he was worried about the damage.
An optimist by nature, however, the Mumbai native said he believed the city and his stores would bounce back soon.
"If the restaurant was open in the Oberoi tonight, I'd go there for dinner," Makhijani said. "That's how badly I want things to return to normal."
It might take longer to restore trust between India's Hindu majority and Muslim minority. Officials have suggested that Islamic militant groups based in rival Pakistan who were responsible for previous attacks in India were responsible for this one.
Life is just to short for drama.
British and American hostages taken in India
posted by odie
As the people of the world's largest democracy recover from these attacks, they can count on the people of the world's oldest democracy to stand by their side," President Bush said.
World's oldest democracy?? You've got to be kidding, world's youngest maybe.
posted by spot
Would you describe the Hindus who destroyed the Babri Mosque as terrorists, just so we can get a handle on the terminology?
I think there is a difference between a mob that gets stirred up to riot and takes action and a small group deliberately setting out in a planned way to kill and destroy with the intent of terrorising people. A distinction between rioters and terrorists. Arguably though, the result is the same, terror for those on the receiving end.
I would use the oxford english dictionary definition.
terrorist
• noun a person who uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.
— DERIVATIVES terrorism noun.
These may be religious terrorists but the aims are also political.
As the people of the world's largest democracy recover from these attacks, they can count on the people of the world's oldest democracy to stand by their side," President Bush said.
World's oldest democracy?? You've got to be kidding, world's youngest maybe.
posted by spot
Would you describe the Hindus who destroyed the Babri Mosque as terrorists, just so we can get a handle on the terminology?
I think there is a difference between a mob that gets stirred up to riot and takes action and a small group deliberately setting out in a planned way to kill and destroy with the intent of terrorising people. A distinction between rioters and terrorists. Arguably though, the result is the same, terror for those on the receiving end.
I would use the oxford english dictionary definition.
terrorist
• noun a person who uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.
— DERIVATIVES terrorism noun.
These may be religious terrorists but the aims are also political.
British and American hostages taken in India
You can't think the mob wasn't stirred up by people who knew the end result and wanted it to happen. The mob might not be terrorists but the leadership fits the bill.
It seems to me that terrorism is whatever the West wants to focus on. There were, for example, 500 Christians killed in Orissa recently and on any rational basis that's a greater outrage than the last week in Mumbai. Has it hit the newspapers? No, because it was Hindus with local backing who were responsible for it, not Muslims trying to fire up a backlash against local Muslims to radicalise them.New Delhi (AsiaNews) – A representative of the local government in Orissa estimated that more than 500 people died as a consequence of the anti-Christian pogrom launched by Hindu fundamentalists. He said he personally authorised the cremation of at least 200 bodies. The representative, on condition of anonymity, reported these facts and figures to a team sent by the Communist Party of India (CPL-ML) on a fact finding visit to Kandhamal district. Officially, according to the state government, the official death toll now stands at 31.
The CPI-ML team visited destroyed villages and refugee camps on 15-16 October, almost two months after the start of the massacre. Here team members met and interviewed magistrates and police officers. Their report signed by J P Minz was published in the November issue of the Liberation magazine. In addition to the real number of dead the report describes the gap between government reassuring statements about the refugee camps and the real situation.
INDIA At least 500 Christians killed in Orissa, government sources say - Asia News
It seems to me that terrorism is whatever the West wants to focus on. There were, for example, 500 Christians killed in Orissa recently and on any rational basis that's a greater outrage than the last week in Mumbai. Has it hit the newspapers? No, because it was Hindus with local backing who were responsible for it, not Muslims trying to fire up a backlash against local Muslims to radicalise them.New Delhi (AsiaNews) – A representative of the local government in Orissa estimated that more than 500 people died as a consequence of the anti-Christian pogrom launched by Hindu fundamentalists. He said he personally authorised the cremation of at least 200 bodies. The representative, on condition of anonymity, reported these facts and figures to a team sent by the Communist Party of India (CPL-ML) on a fact finding visit to Kandhamal district. Officially, according to the state government, the official death toll now stands at 31.
The CPI-ML team visited destroyed villages and refugee camps on 15-16 October, almost two months after the start of the massacre. Here team members met and interviewed magistrates and police officers. Their report signed by J P Minz was published in the November issue of the Liberation magazine. In addition to the real number of dead the report describes the gap between government reassuring statements about the refugee camps and the real situation.
INDIA At least 500 Christians killed in Orissa, government sources say - Asia News
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
British and American hostages taken in India
posted by spot
You can't think the mob wasn't stirred up by people who knew the end result and wanted it to happen. The mob might not be terrorists but the leadership fits the bill.
Mobs have been stirred up for political ends since time immemorial, states and powerful individuals have practised systematic terror also since time immemorial. You could argue that the leadership behind the hindu mob are terrorists in that they use violence to terrorise people in to doing what they want them to and I'd be inclined to agree with you, but those who get swept up in a mob? An act of terror requires a conscious act, nowadays we use political terrorist to mean those who deliberately target innocents with the intention of striking fear in to a community. religious terrorists are a variation on a constant theme.
Allied bomber pilots were called terror fliegers by the germans and took the risk of being lynched when they baled out, we didn't call the german bomber crews terror anything but their intent was the same and they also had to worry about being lynched.
The IRA and UDA were terrorists arguably the black and tans were a state controlled terror organisation. It's all subjective. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.
You can't think the mob wasn't stirred up by people who knew the end result and wanted it to happen. The mob might not be terrorists but the leadership fits the bill.
Mobs have been stirred up for political ends since time immemorial, states and powerful individuals have practised systematic terror also since time immemorial. You could argue that the leadership behind the hindu mob are terrorists in that they use violence to terrorise people in to doing what they want them to and I'd be inclined to agree with you, but those who get swept up in a mob? An act of terror requires a conscious act, nowadays we use political terrorist to mean those who deliberately target innocents with the intention of striking fear in to a community. religious terrorists are a variation on a constant theme.
Allied bomber pilots were called terror fliegers by the germans and took the risk of being lynched when they baled out, we didn't call the german bomber crews terror anything but their intent was the same and they also had to worry about being lynched.
The IRA and UDA were terrorists arguably the black and tans were a state controlled terror organisation. It's all subjective. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.
British and American hostages taken in India
gmc;1073814 wrote: posted by odie
World's oldest democracy?? You've got to be kidding, world's youngest maybe.
Glad I live in Canada!
World's oldest democracy?? You've got to be kidding, world's youngest maybe.
Glad I live in Canada!
Life is just to short for drama.