girl sold into marriage saudi arabia

Post by **spot** » Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:23 pm

Nobody behaved like that in Iraq under Saddam Hussein's governance, he ran a progressive secular liberal administration.

I'm delighted that Sheikh Habib Abdallah al-Habib ruled that the girl will have the right to request a divorce by filing a petition with the court before any consequences arise from the decision.

Human Rights Watch hears of three similar cases a year? That's impressively rare then. In an entire country where it's legal to do this, it only happens three times a year? That involves a remarkable degree of restraint on the part of prospective Saudi husbands.

Post by **spot** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:37 am

fuzzy butt;1094151 wrote: i'm concerned about the girl requesting a divorce her father would not allow her to divorce because he would end up with the debt again (or are her services to the man reducing the debt?) If she divorced this man the father would have her in his custody and still have the debt. I don't think it's goign to be safe for this girl what ever choice (?) she makes.

I think you're pre-guessing what the court would say were she to petition them in a few years. I have no idea what the outcome would be in terms of her relationship with her family.

There are positive and negative aspects to being female and growing up in Saudi Arabia, you've found one which on the face of it seems to be negative. It applies to three people a year. The positives include a safe environment in which to grow up. It's a different culture. The idea of the entire world growing up in any single culture is one I find nauseating and wasteful. Destroying a culture and assimilating it into another is a loss of diversity.

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:05 am

Exactly why do you think a 47 year old man would marry an 8 year old girl? Do you honestly think she is being raised in a safe environment?

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:17 am

The thoughts of a culture allowing its people to be sold into slavery absolutley disgusts me, especially when it involves children. This child has no say in this matter. What does a grown man want with a child if not to enslave her/him....

It's hard for me to believe anyone in our world would approve of and condone this behavior. But, yes, many, many do:mad:

Unfortunately, many of our nations were involved in slavery and still are. We still have Asian women/men sold into slavery and brought to the States to work in brothels. I don't think it will ever end.

qsducks · Post by **qsducks** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 2:02 pm

Kathy Ellen;1094205 wrote: The thoughts of a culture allowing its people to be sold into slavery absolutley disgusts me, especially when it involves children. This child has no say in this matter. What does a grown man want with a child if not to enslave her/him....

It's hard for me to believe anyone in our world would approve of and condone this behavior. But, yes, many, many do:mad:

Unfortunately, many of our nations were involved in slavery and still are. We still have Asian women/men sold into slavery and brought to the States to work in brothels. I don't think it will ever end.

My cousins wife works for an organization in NYC and rescues young girls ages anywhere from 3 yrs to 10 yrs from forced prostitution. They rescue them from the USA. From what I hear from her most of the men that "want" these young girls are white males. Pigs in my book.

Post by **spot** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 2:27 pm

qsducks;1094472 wrote: My cousins wife works for an organization in NYC and rescues young girls ages anywhere from 3 yrs to 10 yrs from forced prostitution. They rescue them from the USA. From what I hear from her most of the men that "want" these young girls are white males. Pigs in my book.

Perhaps you could ask her for the numbers rescued each year? Or the name of the organization so we can look up the number ourselves?

The Saudi child marriages are so rare - three a year - and so exceptional that they garner worldwide news coverage. I don't think anyone can say they're representative of Saudi culture, which is what this thread seems determined to portray them as.

qsducks · Post by **qsducks** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 2:33 pm

spot;1094505 wrote: Perhaps you could ask her for the numbers rescued each year? Or the name of the organization so we can look up the number ourselves?

The Saudi child marriages are so rare - three a year - and so exceptional that they garner worldwide news coverage. I don't think anyone can say they're representative of Saudi culture, which is what this thread seems determined to portray them as.

I can look into it tomorrow morning/Monday. Will let you know.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 2:41 pm

Here are some numbers on bonded slavery-the numbers say 20 million in 1999.:-1

International Justice Mission - What We Do

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:06 pm

spot;1094505 wrote: Perhaps you could ask her for the numbers rescued each year? Or the name of the organization so we can look up the number ourselves?

The Saudi child marriages are so rare - three a year - and so exceptional that they garner worldwide news coverage. I don't think anyone can say they're representative of Saudi culture, which is what this thread seems determined to portray them as.

Spot,

Even rare marriages between a child and an adult is so unacceptable to me. It's just wrong in my opinion.

Post by **spot** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:34 pm

Kathy Ellen;1094517 wrote: Spot,

Even rare marriages between a child and an adult is so unacceptable to me. It's just wrong in my opinion.

Perhaps the mistake is to use "marriage" as a description of this contract? There's nothing about it that has any parallel in any Western use of the word.

fuzzy butt wrote: it's not three a year .....the commision has only heard of one every 4 to 5 moths and only because of public "Saudi" anger. They have only been able to stop one marriage. don't you find that interesting that it is still not able to be stopped in all cases?As I say, there's no overlap between what's being discussed and marriage. Marriage is the wrong word for what's under discussion.

I'm not sure what basis you have for saying it isn't three a year, other than guesswork.

qsducks · Post by **qsducks** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:46 pm

I don't know about you Spot, but still a 9 or a 6 yr old girl being "sold off" to a man 3 times her age is just appalling. And they have a word for it. It's called rape either way you look at it.

Post by **spot** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:55 pm

qsducks;1094531 wrote: I don't know about you Spot, but still a 9 or a 6 yr old girl being "sold off" to a man 3 times her age is just appalling. And they have a word for it. It's called rape either way you look at it.

One of the reasons I didn't think "marriage" was an appropriate word for it is that sexual intercourse between the two is still completely illegal. If you're going to call it rape perhaps you'd like to explain why?

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 4:12 pm

fuzzy butt;1094145 wrote: A Saudi judge recently refused to annul a marriage between an 8-year-old girl and a 47-year-old man -- a union apparently arranged by the girl's father to settle his debts -- a lawyer in the case told CNN.

[/url]

8 year old girl and a 47 year old man?

love these country's beliefs!:rolleyes:

as long as it's got a *****, what does the age matter eh?

:-5:-5:-5

qsducks · Post by **qsducks** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 4:21 pm

spot;1094537 wrote: One of the reasons I didn't think "marriage" was an appropriate word for it is that sexual intercourse between the two is still completely illegal. If you're going to call it rape perhaps you'd like to explain why?

OMO Spot. And if you don't like it, tough Sh*t.

Post by **spot** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:02 am

qsducks;1094581 wrote: OMO Spot. And if you don't like it, tough Sh*t.

Let me put it another way. There's no dictionary I've ever seen which defines rape the way you've defined it. How's that?

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:39 am

qsducks;1094531 wrote: I don't know about you Spot, but still a 9 or a 6 yr old girl being "sold off" to a man 3 times her age is just appalling. And they have a word for it. It's called rape either way you look at it.

its more than disgusting, imagine what that these poor girls must go through!:-5:-5

I think its just us women who would ever understand.

Post by **spot** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:46 am

Odie;1095076 wrote: its more than disgusting, imagine what that these poor girls must go through!:-5:-5Explain to us, what do these poor girls go through?

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:47 am

spot;1095093 wrote: Explain to us, what do these poor girls go through?

being raped, sodomized, forced to do everything.

these countrys don't care about women.

Post by **spot** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:04 am

This might be a useful antidote to anyone who thinks only Western pressure groups are concerned that these rare practices should be stopped altogether.A group fighting for women's rights in Saudi Arabia condemned a judge for refusing to annul the marriage of an 8-year-old girl to a 47-year-old man. The group's co-founder, Wajeha al-Huwaider, told CNN that achieving human rights in the kingdom means standing against those who want to "keep us backward and in the dark ages."

The Society of Defending Women's Rights in Saudi Arabia, in a statement published on its Web site, called on the "minister of justice and human rights groups to interfere now in this case" by divorcing the girl from the man. "They must end this marriage deal which was made by the father of the girl and the husband."

[...] In its statement Wednesday, the Society of Defending Women's Rights in Saudi Arabia said the judge's decision goes against children's "basic rights." Marrying children makes them "lose their sense of security and safety. Also, it destroys their feeling of being loved and nurtured. It causes them a lifetime of psychological problems and severe depression. "Moreover, children marriage creates unhealthy families because they were built on bad relationships."

The judge's decision also contradicts the king's consultative council, called the Majlis al-Shura, which found that anyone under the age of 18 "is a child and should be treated likewise," the women's rights group said.

tehran times : Saudi women's group assails judge over 8-year-old's marriage

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:13 am

spot;1094154 wrote: I think you're pre-guessing what the court would say were she to petition them in a few years. I have no idea what the outcome would be in terms of her relationship with her family.

There are positive and negative aspects to being female and growing up in Saudi Arabia, you've found one which on the face of it seems to be negative. It applies to three people a year. The positives include a safe environment in which to grow up. It's a different culture. The idea of the entire world growing up in any single culture is one I find nauseating and wasteful. Destroying a culture and assimilating it into another is a loss of diversity.

Sometimes I don't understand you much. Other-times, I do understand you and you baffle me... but at this moment I question your sanity.

A father who has no problem looking upon his daughter as something to be bartered, has zero concern for her safety.

Any man who thinks this pedophilia is more acceptable then any potential harm caused to the culture by rejecting it, needs his head examined. Or better yet, let him step forward, bend over and offer up his own ass to the cause for a few years first.

Any man that thinks he has any right to a child's body should be castrated and forced to eat his own nuts, IMO. I don't care where he's from. The same with any female and her clit. Then stake them out in the town square and post a sign warning everyone else of the same fate in case they should find themselves having trouble trying to control similar urges...

And before you even try the innocent little non conjugal relationship argument, the judge asked for that pledge from the husband... that means it was not a prerequisite when daddy handed off his little girl.

Men abuse little girls all around the world, every day and in every culture known to man. It is wrong and unacceptable in each and every one of them, I don't care what the particular society condones. An innocent child does not understand cultural differences.. she understands only that her life will never be the same.

kayleneaussie · Post by **kayleneaussie** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:19 am

flopstock;1095153 wrote: Sometimes I don't understand you much. Other-times, I do understand you and you baffle me... but at this moment I question your sanity.

A father who has no problem looking upon his daughter as something to be bartered, has zero concern for her safety.

Any man who thinks this pedophilia is more acceptable then any potential harm caused to the culture by rejecting it, needs his head examined. Or better yet, let him step forward, bend over and offer up his own ass to the cause for a few years first.

Any man that thinks he has any right to a child's body should be castrated and forced to eat his own nuts, IMO. I don't care where he's from. The same with any female and her clit. Then stake them out in the town square and post a sign warning everyone else of the same fate in case they should find themselves having trouble trying to control similar urges...

And before you even try the innocent little non conjugal relationship argument, the judge asked for that pledge from the husband... that means it was not a prerequisite when daddy handed off his little girl.

Men abuse little girls all around the world, every day and in every culture known to man. It is wrong and unacceptable in each and every one of them, I don't care what the particular society condones. An innocent child does not understand cultural differences.. she understands only that her life will never be the same.

totally agree:(

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:24 am

Odie;1095095 wrote: being raped, sodomized, forced to do everything.

these countrys don't care about women.

That's a people thing, Odie. Women and girls are raped or molested here in the USA every hour of every day. There are assholes everywhere, not just 'these countries'.

IMO, it is wrong, whereever it is happening. And where there is not law to protect women and children from this, there needs to be. It would also be helpful if those laws were enforced..

:-5

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:44 am

flopstock;1095162 wrote: That's a people thing, Odie. Women and girls are raped or molested here in the USA every hour of every day. There are assholes everywhere, not just 'these countries'.

IMO, it is wrong, whereever it is happening. And where there is not law to protect women and children from this, there needs to be. It would also be helpful if those laws were enforced..

:-5

I was talking about the 6 year old girls married to old men in Saudia.

that doesn't happen here.

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:50 am

flopstock;1095153 wrote: Sometimes I don't understand you much. Other-times, I do understand you and you baffle me... but at this moment I question your sanity.

A father who has no problem looking upon his daughter as something to be bartered, has zero concern for her safety.

Any man who thinks this pedophilia is more acceptable then any potential harm caused to the culture by rejecting it, needs his head examined. Or better yet, let him step forward, bend over and offer up his own ass to the cause for a few years first.

Any man that thinks he has any right to a child's body should be castrated and forced to eat his own nuts, IMO. I don't care where he's from. The same with any female and her clit. Then stake them out in the town square and post a sign warning everyone else of the same fate in case they should find themselves having trouble trying to control similar urges...

And before you even try the innocent little non conjugal relationship argument, the judge asked for that pledge from the husband... that means it was not a prerequisite when daddy handed off his little girl.

Men abuse little girls all around the world, every day and in every culture known to man. It is wrong and unacceptable in each and every one of them, I don't care what the particular society condones. An innocent child does not understand cultural differences.. she understands only that her life will never be the same.

well said, I totally agree!

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:32 pm

Mohammed himself apparently had a six or seven year old wife, his second wife. Her name was Aisha. Apparently he didn't have sex with her though till she was nine. This seems to be a fact which is easily checkable in Google or elsewhere.

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:32 pm

There must have been another way for the father to settle his debt than this cruel act. And the man to whom he owed this debt did not have the integrity to refuse this gesture and suggest a reasonable one.

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:09 pm

fuzzy butt;1095226 wrote: what is a "teenager" under Saudi law? and who believes this "husband" is going to allow this young teenager to present to a court?

Spot I call it a marriage and it is a marriage under Saudi Law. The Judge didn't refuse to release this girl from 'bondage" he refused to annul a "marriage".

Lets take out the Sex for a moment . Does this girl have to perform other 'wifely duties' as in looking after this mans health and interests? Is that not bad enough?

Is she still going to school? Does she have her toys to play with?

Lets not take away the human in this case ...........She's a little girl. Taken from her mother, now sold off by her father ............SHE"S A LITTLE GIRL!!!

she never had the chance to be a little girl!

It is a marriage as you said, the judge refused to annul it!

Post by **spot** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:06 pm

It's not a marriage in any sexual sense and there are three documented instances a year across an entire country of thirty million people. I've taken exception to any view that it's typical. I've taken exception to the idea that Western pressure groups, as opposed to local pressure groups, have any say in what happens there.

It's a bad judgement in a court in a country which has pressures. As the article I quoted says, "There is a strong wave to teach and spread human rights here in Saudi Arabia, but we all know that there are two players behind the scenes: a movement that wants reform and change to better the kingdom and another movement that wants to keep us backward and in the dark ages."

What I find outrageous is people in this thread speaking of this incident as though it's typical. It's an exception. It's down to three recalcitrant fools of judges a year refusing to move with the times. It's so unusual that it gets into the world press when it happens.

Pressure from outside the country is nowhere near as powerful or as desirable as pressure from within. Cultures move, people change what happens in their society, that's how it happens. When I say of Saudi Arabia that "The positives include a safe environment in which to grow up", flopstock, it's a general statement - obviously in this and the other very few cases it's failed. All societies fail to some extent. I happen to think Saudi Arabia fails rather less often than most Western nations. Using exceptions as a picture of a given culture is deliberately misleading.

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:53 pm

women in Saudi Arabia & other countries close to it have no rights.

They are considered to be useless, forgetful and know knowing about life, reason being is because they are not allowed to experience life, therefore treated like slaves, they are continually raped by one or more men, parts of their bodies are slashed off etc.

In Qatar, if you even stare at a woman, prepare to meet your death.

Post by **spot** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:34 pm

Odie;1095368 wrote: women in Saudi Arabia & other countries close to it have no rights.

They are considered to be useless, forgetful and know knowing about life, reason being is because they are not allowed to experience life, therefore treated like slaves, they are continually raped by one or more men, parts of their bodies are slashed off etc.

In Qatar, if you even stare at a woman, prepare to meet your death.

What puzzles me is that you invent fiction like this and assume it carries any weight of argument. What you've written bears no comparison with reality. We even had a member here posting for a year from the capital of Syria - Syria's a hundred miles from Saudi Arabia - giving her personal first-hand experience of the lives of Syrian women and it was entirely different from the story you've made up. What "women in Saudi Arabia & other countries close to it have no rights" tells me is the state of your mind, not the nature of life in the Middle East.

kayleneaussie · Post by **kayleneaussie** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:45 pm

spot;1095387 wrote: What puzzles me is that you invent fiction like this and assume it carries any weight of argument. What you've written bears no comparison with reality. We even had a member here posting for a year from the capital of Syria - Syria's a hundred miles from Saudi Arabia - giving her personal first-hand experience of the lives of Syrian women and it was entirely different from the story you've made up. What "women in Saudi Arabia & other countries close to it have no rights" tells me is the state of your mind, not the nature of life in the Middle East.

Spot i watched a documentary on this exact subject a few months ago and was appalled at what happens to woman and female children...its not part of Odies imagination and its not bloody fiction it actually happens:mad: They are now sending missions to some of these countries to try and change things but its going to take an awful long time and in the meantime women and children suffer

Post by **spot** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:48 pm

kayleneaussie;1095390 wrote: Spot i watched a documentary on this exact subject a few months ago and was appalled at what happens to woman and female children...its not part of Odies imagination and its not bloody fiction it actually happens:mad: They are now sending missions to some of these countries to try and change things but its going to take an awful long time and in the meantime women and children suffer

We're talking about child marriages here? Or are we exploding the thread into every accusation against Islamic society that can be brought to bear?

Who are "they"?

What I said in this thread is that both children and women in Saudi Arabia are far less likely to be the victims of crime in general and rape in particular than a child or woman in a Western society. That, I think, is impossible to deny. Saudi Arabian society is a far safer place for them to live. There are obviously cultural aspects that some people would like to see changed and which some people are changing but they're being changed from inside by the women themselves. Pressure from outside of any culture is counter-productive.

kayleneaussie · Post by **kayleneaussie** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:51 pm

spot;1095391 wrote: We're talking about child marriages here? Or are we exploding the thread into every accusation against Islamic society that can be brought to bear?

I am an educational woman spot and I dont post unless I know what I am talking about I also put my opinion on and I refuse to be caught up in your rubbish talk

Post by **spot** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:53 pm

kayleneaussie;1095392 wrote: I am an educational woman spot and I dont post unless I know what I am talking about I also put my opinion on and I refuse to be caught up in your rubbish talk

I apologize, I edited the last post while you were responding.

Who are "they"?

What I said in this thread is that both children and women in Saudi Arabia are far less likely to be the victims of crime in general and rape in particular than a child or woman in a Western society. That, I think, is impossible to deny. Saudi Arabian society is a far safer place for them to live. There are obviously cultural aspects that some people would like to see changed and which some people are changing but they're being changed from inside by the women themselves. Pressure from outside of any culture is counter-productive.

kayleneaussie · Post by **kayleneaussie** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:06 pm

spot;1095393 wrote: I apologize, I edited the last post while you were responding.

Who are "they"?

What I said in this thread is that both children and women in Saudi Arabia are far less likely to be the victims of crime in general and rape in particular than a child or woman in a Western society. That, I think, is impossible to deny. Saudi Arabian society is a far safer place for them to live. There are obviously cultural aspects that some people would like to see changed and which some people are changing but they're being changed from inside by the women themselves. Pressure from outside of any culture is counter-productive.

Maybe they are far less victims of crimes than western society but at what cost....young children being married off at a young age and growing into women who are mere sex objects to the men.....big price to pay

Post by **spot** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:19 pm

kayleneaussie;1095397 wrote: Maybe they are far less victims of crimes than western society but at what cost....young children being married off at a young age and growing into women who are mere sex objects to the men.....big price to pay

How anyone living in a Western society can try to keep a straight face while saying "growing into women who are mere sex objects to the men" I can't imagine. Just look at the magazine shelves in the newsagent. How can you get anything so upside-down? The whole point of Middle Eastern practice is to get out from under being a mere sex object to the men. Try wearing a hijab for a few days and find out!

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:19 pm

spot;1095387 wrote: What puzzles me is that you invent fiction like this and assume it carries any weight of argument. What you've written bears no comparison with reality. We even had a member here posting for a year from the capital of Syria - Syria's a hundred miles from Saudi Arabia - giving her personal first-hand experience of the lives of Syrian women and it was entirely different from the story you've made up. What "women in Saudi Arabia & other countries close to it have no rights" tells me is the state of your mind, not the nature of life in the Middle East.

ahem.

fiction?

My brother-in-law and his wife are now working in Qatar, they live in Canada, she took an amazing job offer as HR for the University of Qatar for two years. They have been there for one year now.

I do know what goes on.

perhaps you should get your facts straight.

Post by **spot** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:22 pm

Odie;1095400 wrote: ahem!

My brother-in-law and his wife are working in Qatar, they live in Canada, she took an amazing job offer as HR for the University of Qatar for two years.

I do know what goes on.

That "women in Saudi Arabia & other countries close to it have no rights"?

Go on, pick a country and I'll produce evidence of womens' rights there, how does that sound. Or is that not what you meant?

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:26 pm

spot;1095402 wrote: That "women in Saudi Arabia & other countries close to it have no rights"?

Go on, pick a country and I'll produce evidence of womens' rights there, how does that sound. Or is that not what you meant?

forget it, not worth my time.

you believe what you want.

oh and by the way, don't be staring at the women over there either!:sneaky:

the men will not put up with it.

and if you live there or visit and are caught for speeding, you are immediately kicked out to another country.

they don't play games there or put up with any ****.

you can google all the crap you want, but does that necessarily mean it's true? what someone else has written?

I on the other hand tend to believe what I know, straight from the source.

Post by **spot** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:32 pm

Odie;1095406 wrote: they don't play games there or put up with any ****.That, I think, is what I've been trying to say.Odie;1095406 wrote: you can google all the crap you want, but does that necessarily mean its true, what someone else has written?

I on the other hand tend to believe what I hear straight from the source.

I keep trying to tell you that my daughter spent last year living in Damascus and travelling through the neighbouring countries but you don't seem to be hearing me. I'm going on her observations.

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:11 pm

but that is not Qatar.

Post by **spot** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:13 pm

Odie;1095429 wrote: but that is not Qatar.

She saw a lot of the Lebanon and Jordan and Turkey though. It's a representative picture of the Middle East and it isn't one where women have no rights.