What advice would you give...

actionfigurestepho · Post by **actionfigurestepho** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:34 am

That's a tough one...he did make the promise when he was only 15, but obviously it's very important to his own father.

If they postpone the wedding is the future FIL going to lose all the money that he put into the wedding so far? How does the bride feel about it? I think this is something their whole family needs to get together and discuss, the FIL about the money, the dad about his fears for his son if he gets married before he graduates, and of course the couple, because it is THEIR wedding, after all.

kmhowe72 · Post by **kmhowe72** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:36 am

well I think he should do what he feels in his heart. If he's a chrisyian, that would be what god wants him to do. never go against god and his will, because I know from personal experience it never works out. God is your conscienous and your intu. Bottom line if he doesn't feel compelled. Tell him not to do it. he's the only one can make the decision.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:53 am

Tell the little k-nucklehead (pronounced with the K) that this conversation and decision should've already been made. Now he's made 2 promises and must break one to keep the other. If he delays the marriage, he's honor-bound to repay her dad for any money he can't get back (screw embarrassment; you can't barter embarrassment). If he gets married, he's in debt for his education. Either way will cost money.

The old addage has to stand, in my opinion. If whe really loves you, she'll wait. Don't get married until you can afford it. Good kids like him usually follow all the rules; therefore she'll be pregnant before summer. They definitely can't afford that. Love is simply not enough calories to live on.

My knee-jerk opinion: he should get w/FIL. He will show his maturity by laying out logically that it just doesn't make sense to get married yet; not fair to anybody. He should then help figure out just what can be returned/refunded & set up some kind of payment plan to repay what FIL would have to eat.

Then he should apologize to Dad.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:56 am

It sounds like tradition is important to all concerned here.

The wedding that Jesus referred to in his teachings on the subject was based on the traditional wedding of that time. In that wedding it was common for a betrothal to last more than one year and often two years. The reason was that the groom wasnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t allowed to go get his bride until the wedding chamber at his home was prepared to his fatherÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s satisfaction. Once the grooms father told him it was timeÃ¢â‚¬¦that he had made adequate preparationÃ¢â‚¬¦ the groom and groomsmen went to bring his bride home.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:05 am

Far Rider wrote: Clint! I was hopin you'd show up! Good point, but in our society the Groom goes off to set up his household.

Thanks.

I think the key is that the grooms father plays an important role in the whole thing and doesn't let the groom get ahead of himself.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:05 am

Far Rider wrote: Acc. takes the hard line!!! wooohooo, make a man out of him!
Better you & me make him a man than his kid.

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:30 am

Not a mother... except of a fur kid but my leaning would be toward

going ahead and having the wedding. Sounds like this guy and his girl

could handle it.

And a "promise" made at age 15, well, it would be kind of hard for me

personally to hold him to that.

Anyway.

:-3

Xxena · Post by **Xxena** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:32 am

Deja vu...

When our girls were in highschool they were told by husband... "your mother and I have worked out arses off to save and make sure your 4 year degree is paid for, and you don't have to work and go to school and take twice as long as we did. So when you are a freshman the money will be put into a account for each of you to draw out 4 times a year... for tutition and for books times 2. You take more and bankrupt the account before you graduate.. YOUR PROBLEM now come up with balance you need and don't you dare run to MOM (me

) Second, marriage and weddings. I will gladly pay a reasonable amount for each of you for a wedding, although I think its wiser to elope and then what I would have paid for everyone to eat and drink I'd rather give you for a downpayment on your first house, but that's up to you two... HOWEVER... if you do not graduate with at least a bachelors degree in something useful.. NO WEDDING, NO DOWNPAYMENT..you want to do it YOUR WAY... go for it.. without our financial help. We did it and you can do but your generation does not want to save nor

giveup anything in order to save for something. Decision is yours...

Ball is in your court ladies... you can have sex, drugs and rock and roll or you can have a degree and a house - choice is yours make it wisely"..

This young guy has more of a problem.. since his dad is a minister and he's studying to be one so that creates the "living together" solution as a real NO NO..

Our oldest lived in our house in MN, when she was not in school during the normal school year in ND... off year she lived in our house and so did her boyfriend/Fiance'.. pleased about it... no but she was an adult in the eyes of

the law and he was 5 years older than her so defintely above the age of anyone's consent. She never asked for a cent.. was an honor student all through school and worked 40 hours a week Soph - Senior year as well.. She got her degree with a very proud smiling dad in May of 2002 and in August 2002 he was walking her down the isle crying instead of smiling this time... they didn't elope but they had a small country wedding that cost us nothing compared to what it would be here in the Chicagoland area... so the difference we did give them as a downpayment on their first house..

#2... my hell child... smart as can be, talented, pretty and a royal pain in the arse all the time, with a smart mouth to boot. She barely made it out of junior high and highschool to blossom in college and turn into an honor student as well. Her problem is she messed up so bad in highschool she had to waste 3 semesters when starting college to take courses to catch up and be eligible for 101 level courses... once she got that done she's kept going and one well but she will not be graduating this year like she should.. she's only a junior this year. She's spouting a huge engagment ring for this past year... her fiance' who we tolerate.. he's not a bad guy but he is a dyed in the wool stereotypical yuppie and it grates on husbands nerves to no end the guy's whinning and inability to do anything but

whine, go out to dinner each night and find things to amuse himself.

Not sure why but they suddenly go this bug to buy a condo or townhouse and live together while she finished school... we really had doubts cuz she is not like me or dad or her sister who are good at multitasking and setting priorities... but she's 22 and he's 27 so they are adults.. He found and bought a place and "they moved"...

Was the best thing that could have happened... she has had to learn how to delegate her time now having her own place to keep and her own househould bills to pay along with her car payment etc, him doing the same... the "party animals" no longer are out each night.. they ahve not be out in weeks.. she's in school full time and doing well.. and working for me about 35 hours a week.. he has a good job and it pays well but he's learning what it costs to be a home owner.. and even more amazing he found he' likes working with his hands as in handy man around the house stuff and has been on a kick his days off to paint, replace lighting fixtures, bathroom fixtures, he's now into ripping out the old

tile in the kitchen to retile it.. came by to borrow our tile saw other day.. and had 1001 questions for husband on how to do this or that or what tools to use.. we gave him "home projects books for his birthday and he loved them".. his father and brother hire someone to do everything, neither of them lift a finger other than to hoist a drink, eat or use the channel changers.. so I give the kid credit

he seems to be honestly breaking the mold of the males in his family and enjoying it for the self satisfaction he gets out of it. More power to him... his whinning still makes us nuts though..

Wonders never cease..

sometimes you have to remember if they've gone so far and done well to date and are over 21 you have to cut em loose and let them learn on their own otherwise they will never know how to do it without always having to have parents approval.. we as parents are not going to be there forever !!!

kmhowe72 · Post by **kmhowe72** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:43 am

I never said he should act on emotion. He's a christian and as far as I was taught god is in your heart. Your right you should never make these kinds of decisions based on emotion or hormones.

Xxena · Post by **Xxena** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:04 am

Far Rider wrote: Xxena, its a joy to talk with you, I love the fire!

I'll fill the kid in about the joys of reality and keeping a house! Thanks for your input!

Val. I agree, a promise at 15 that he wants to keep is impressive to me. He feels bad he failed the first promise about no debt.

:wah: :wah: my usual "fire" is more like a flickering match today.. I'm just BEAT.. long weekend of problem clients finding us here, problem employees finding us here.. hot and humid and then the realization that one of the local car dealers here is big enough and powerful enough they are "price fixing" the tradein's and has me in their web.. I was just furious. That coupled with the arrogant , sneering condesending manager of the dealership I was at... the guy does not know how Much I wanted to punch his face in just to shut him up for 20 seconds. So after much pondering what to do Hubby realized we have a client who's son (adult our age) owns a dealership in another state.. called him.. told him what was going on here.. his comment " that close to Chicago does not surprise me".. told him what I had to trade and what I/we wanted and he said he'll come up with it given him a day or two and the trade$$ I thought I should get was very reasonable.. it works I can't wait to go back there and just give the guy the finger salute with the out of state license plate bracket for his to see through my leaving dust...

Client problems .. part of the biz just wish they'd leave us the hell alone on the weekends and same with my whinning employees.. I was doing well on 4 hours of sleep until about an hour ago and now I'm starting to fade rather quickly.. time for a protein shake and a power bar and then back to the rat race.. another day another .67 :rolleyes:

Maybe this weekend I'll have some real free time to read and post... enjoy the forum here glad I found it.

As for the young couple you described.. sounds like they have their heads on straight... maybe his dad should let up a bit and give them a break...they'll do fine if he backs off a little and quits with the quilt trip.. sounds like my mother.. wonder if its some long lost relative of hers... heaven forbid there's 2 like her.. the world is NOT ready for that I don't think.

The younger one's fiance... he's Italian/German and his mother is VERY Italian, I about died one night when we were invited for dinner there and she was just going on and on putting this one son on the continual guilt trip... he at one point says to his parents in unison.. DAD I think you should buy mom a travel agency... that way she can send everyone on a guilt trip not just me.. funny stuff !

PHONES.. gotta go... urgh

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:36 pm

Howdy Far!!

I only read your OP, not the rest of the replies because I didn't want my opinion swayed by what the others are saying, so if I repeat some things you've heard, my bad.

A promise made at 15, without the proper experience to make such a promise is unfair. It almost sounds like the father is trying to guilt his son into keeping a promise he had no business asking for in the first place. Any number of things could have (and obviously did) happened in the time between the promise and now.

However. If there is ANY doubt in this boy's mind, he should wait. If the doubt is only from his father, that should not be counted, only doubt in his own mind. Personally, I think 23 is too young to get married, but that's my own opinion.

Another view: The father wants a better life for his son than he had, and knows that will come from a good education. I believe he has his son's best interests at heart, but sometimes a parent's wishes for their child do not jive with what the child truly wants. I know that's how it worked out with my parents.

This boy obviously respects his father and wants to make him happy and proud, but being 23 he is his own man and while it's good to seek advice like he's doing, the decision is ultimately his. Kids also need to be allowed to make their own mistakes, (not that this would neccessarily be a mistake) and learn from them, not be sheltered by their parents forever.

Sound wishy-washy? Probably, that's just the first things that came to mind after reading, and what my gut says. Maybe you should just print out this entire thread and show it to that young man!

Let us know how it goes? Good luck helping this boy out!

ubetta · Post by **ubetta** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:53 pm

Doesn't the young bride have anything to say about this? Is the wedding a gift from her father? If so, it costs them nothing. As for schooling, is there a reason why he can't continue school after marriage? As for being in debt, well, if his parents couldn't pay for it, just how exactly did they expect for him to be able to go? Loans. Student loans. It's a managable debt set up just for this purpose.

So, as far as feeling guilty about , that's a moot point. He's already in debt, and not a wasteful debt. As for the wedding, well, all I have to say about that is "man up" boy. You are an adult now. And an adult seperates themselves and their decisions from their parents. They make their own decisions and take responsibilty for them. This isn't a marriage between his parents, her parents and him and her. It's between him and her. Talk it over like adults, make a joint decision, quit asking other people and take responsibilty! Might as well start now because that's what you have to do for the rest of your very long life.

And....congratulations on the marriage!! Have a GREAT time at the wedding!!

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:05 pm

When a couple marries, they leave the confines of their parents rules and regulations. So wedding plans have been made, the "they should have talked about it" has not been discussed. There is nothing wrong with the young man marrying before he finishes college, thinking of St. Paul, "it is better to marry than burn" is a little heavy, but they want to be together. The father really cannot expect his son to keep promises made in his teens, the debts have already been started because of the financial situation.

Now the future bride should also realize her future husband is going to be a pastor, so if the wedding date is changed she has to learn to be amendable, he will be posted to many churches and locations throughout his ministry, and have to get used to it. If she cannot handle it now, she better rethink the whole situation.

Easy solution: go down to city hall and get married, then tell the parents afterwards. The money to be spent on a big wedding can be given as a reception-or on useful items a new couple needs for their life together. I wish them all the best.

cars · Post by **cars** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:12 pm

Far Rider wrote: It is a tough one... I see a young man trying to please too many... its a hard knock to tell your father to take a hike...

At 23 I was married two years and on our own... sink or swim as it were.

His girl and he want to get married as soon as possible, they are both very taditional people both have saved themselves for marriage and as a natural progression of life want to be with each other physically, been there as far as a guy is concerned and its very difficult.

His FIL will loose about 3 grand.

His father is pushing him to keep his promise.

Interesting you should say the whole family discuss this... the FIL has offered to call his father to discuss the issues.

That's rediculious, the boy was 15, and it's great that he's honerable enough to be troubled by not being able keep a childhood promise. Things change, the "world" has changed drastically since he was 15. Didn't the Father ever hear that S*it happens! Is the Father going to reimburse the FIL for his loss, if the Father has his way? Most likely not!

So the Son can apease his Father by "siging" in front of his Father, and witnessed by his bride to be, an ammended promise, to finish College after getting married, no matter what!

All should be happy, as all get what they want.

ubetta · Post by **ubetta** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:13 pm

The money to be spent on a big wedding can be given as a reception-or on useful items a new couple needs for their life together.

Yeah! Like paying off some of that college debt!!! Great idea!

:-6

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:40 pm

No advice from me my friend, because i know you'll know just what to say to him.

That's the reason he came to you for help, because he knows you are honourable and can return with good, sound advice.

Good luck :-6

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:44 pm

Far Rider wrote:

BTW I think your a barmaid. Am I right? Or did I guess that one already?HAHAHAHA So sweet............SO WRONG! (nice try)

Wolverine · Post by **Wolverine** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:38 pm

he's 23 and getting married. going to school to become minister.

uhm... well...

:wah:

at least he's not Catholic?

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:25 pm

I did not read the entire thread Far but my opinion is that he is a fine young man. I also happen to know that minors cannot be held to contracts. I imagine his father does not want him to quit should his bride become pregnant. I would support his decision to marry IF I were is parent - alas - I am not.

Tan · Post by **Tan** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:19 pm

It's all about priorities and timing. If the marriage is something they both really want (sounds apparent) and if he promises to finish his schooling, I say go for it! Everybody has been in debt at some part of their life. That's something you can recover from. Who would be in more debt? The FIL or the boy?

Xxena · Post by **Xxena** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:17 pm

NO..

simply NO..

age is nothing more than maturity.. at 23 some are so immature they should still be in diapers and bottles, others can rule the world, its ALL HOW THEY are raised and developed as people

MY oldest married at 22, at 25 she has MORE On the ball than most women at 35.. same for her husband at 29 compared to men 10 yrears older than him.

Then there's my 23 yr old and her fiance' .... they need to do preschool over but getting there slowly..

we need to see all of them OUR own kids and others as the individuals they are and their strong and weak points. We "assist" the weak and we give the strong the little push they need.

I beg to differ with the father of the son.. there are FEW 15 yr old that have the maturity to do what this young man did.. the FACT that he is stressing over this shows he is conscieous of his comments eariler and the people and their feelings involved.. his, his father's, his fiance's and her family.. and its NOT fair to dump so much and two young people when to this point they have been the epitomy of what we all wish our kids ARE.. the parents on BOTH sides need to step back and give these kids a break and some breathing room... it is THEIR lives NO the parents to live... we do not have the right to live vicariously through our kids even though we are all guilty of it at some point...we didn't like it when OUR parents did it to us.. and now we do it to ours

LET them do their thing and live their lives... they fall.. they learn to get up.. they have had a good background to this point and now they need to move forward as it works for them.. NOT us, their parents, because OUR times and theirs is VERY different ! Our place is to be there to listen and to lead by example not to force them into a role we ourselves would not accept.

Xxena · Post by **Xxena** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:20 pm

If my parents had held me to all the promises I made when I was 15, I woulda been in deep doodoo!

YOU, ME and about everyone else here... but we get older and forget and fall into the traps our parents laid for us..

do we have the right to do the same to ours ?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:25 am

Xxena wrote: If my parents had held me to all the promises I made when I was 15, I woulda been in deep doodoo!

YOU, ME and about everyone else here... but we get older and forget and fall into the traps our parents laid for us..

do we have the right to do the same to ours ?
The right and the obligation, if it will give them pause in making a life-changing decision rather than running headlong guided by emotion. It appears that's what this "trap" has successfully done for this young man.

Far, it would be interesting to let him read all of this, rather than parsing (I hope I used this word right) for him. Then let him decide.

Majenta · Post by **Majenta** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:51 am

Accountable wrote: The right and the obligation, if it will give them pause in making a life-changing decision rather than running headlong guided by emotion. It appears that's what this "trap" has successfully done for this young man.

Definitely AC, this chap has obviously given a lot of thought to the promise he made when he was younger, which in itself shows a great deal of maturity and strength of character. It is only too easy to write off a promise such as that claiming to have been to young to understand exactly what you're promising. The fact that he has not done this seems to suggest - to me at least - that he is wise and sensible enough to make this decision independently, and decide to do what is best for everyone involved. It sounds like he needs a little encouragement to be confident in his own choice.

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:49 am

You're a good man Rob, well done x

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:25 am

The man's got a good head for decisions. thanks for not muckin' it up, Far.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:30 am

Ya done good my friend. :yh_clap

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:02 pm

Far Rider wrote: The rest of the story...

I met my young friend yesterday evening after church and he said he talked with both his mother and father, after himing and hawing for a week, he asked them out to dinner and they discussed the whole thing.

The father released the son from his promise, telling him that he didnt really realize he was putting pressure on him in that way. Both his mother and father gave thier full blessing for the marriage.

So wanted to let everyone know what happened.

Thanks you all for your advice and thoughts and prayers.
A happy ending. Good people with good intent following a good heart often have happy endings.