Jester;1093967 wrote: Right...:rolleyes:
Spot, yer blind. Abinajehadin is a lying sack of crap that took this opportunity to promote his global position. And your government gave him the plateform.
Just becasue he mantioned the name of Christ doesn't mean he knows anything about him... it was a nice toucvh though, propaganda at its finest if I ever saw it and it gave you the all overs just to report it!Would it be irrelevant if I point out that I regard him as an intelligent Godfearing pious man? or that I regard George Bush, by contrast, as a greedy man of subnormal mental capacity who hardened his heart against the Lord long ago? A male Ann Coulter without the repartee, if I can put it that way.
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
Jester;1094001 wrote: I consider both men ungodly. And irrelevant to the conversation- abenajihadin is a world leader on his own agenda period. Whats insane is the plateform he was given. Sheer madness.
No, sheer anger. And it wasn't a platform given by the UK government, it was a gesture by the programmers of the TV channel.
The distinction I note from the thread is that you're convinced that murdering President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would be matter of celebration, while I want President George Bush to live in good health until he's at least a hundred.
No, sheer anger. And it wasn't a platform given by the UK government, it was a gesture by the programmers of the TV channel.
The distinction I note from the thread is that you're convinced that murdering President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would be matter of celebration, while I want President George Bush to live in good health until he's at least a hundred.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
Could we perhaps just agree that "exporter of terrorism" depends on where you're sitting and that from my desk it describes the behaviour of a lot of US administrations since World War Two? As a reason for choosing who's the good guy, quite frankly it doesn't work. We don't share a perspective within which it's a good reason for acting. We need to step outside those parameters if we're to hold any sort of meaningful discussion.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
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The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
Jester;1093967 wrote: Right...:rolleyes:
Spot, yer blind. Abinajehadin is a lying sack of crap that took this opportunity to promote his global position. And your government gave him the plateform.
Just becasue he mantioned the name of Christ doesn't mean he knows anything about him... it was a nice toucvh though, propaganda at its finest if I ever saw it and it gave you the all overs just to report it!
Sorry Spot but i'm with Jester on this one.
I think the man is wholly dangerous and is looking to become more prominant in the global arena.
Of course he was going to mention Christ!!! He was hardly going to mention the teachings os Allah to a British audience.
Spot, yer blind. Abinajehadin is a lying sack of crap that took this opportunity to promote his global position. And your government gave him the plateform.
Just becasue he mantioned the name of Christ doesn't mean he knows anything about him... it was a nice toucvh though, propaganda at its finest if I ever saw it and it gave you the all overs just to report it!
Sorry Spot but i'm with Jester on this one.
I think the man is wholly dangerous and is looking to become more prominant in the global arena.
Of course he was going to mention Christ!!! He was hardly going to mention the teachings os Allah to a British audience.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
Jester;1094243 wrote: I am and hold a distinctively american perspective spot. I think in terms of the enemies the US has, those that use terror to get what they want are my enemy. I am not in a discussion in which I will take the enemies side, you can forget that. The combat actions that happen from the US out are in defense of my country against groups or militaries that act out in agression towards us or who are planning to attack us or who are equiping to attack us or who can threaten and are likely to attack us. I know you have an 'international perspective' on this we've been over this a million times.
You have made it clear to me that the 'world' does not like our agressive work to counter terrorism, and it looks like Obama will pull up stakes and bring us all home so you guys win, no more US Military intervention abroad. (except of course to deliver humanitarian aide)
I hope you enjoy the insidious growth of Islamic peoples in your midst. And I hope they remain peaceful for the sake of your children.
So when an Iranian, using the rules you are here putting into place, assassinates the American President on the grounds that he is and holds a distinctively Iranian perspective. He thinks in terms of the enemies Iran has, those that use terror to get what they want are my enemy. He is not in a discussion in which he will take the enemies side, you can forget that. The combat actions that happen from Iran out are in defence of his country against groups or militaries that act out in aggression towards Iran or who are planning to attack Iran or who are equiping others to attack Iran or who can threaten and are likely to attack Iran you will not complain about foul tactics or terrorism because is it exactly what you are recommending as a true and just way to run the world.
People see what the US do and get away with and, as with all role models, they mirror the behaviour - as the US acts with its Shock and Awe and its covert arming and supporting of like minded groups and its direct action to force regime change so others will do.
You cannot claim it as acceptable for yourself and condemn it when others do it - that's hypocrisy.
You have made it clear to me that the 'world' does not like our agressive work to counter terrorism, and it looks like Obama will pull up stakes and bring us all home so you guys win, no more US Military intervention abroad. (except of course to deliver humanitarian aide)
I hope you enjoy the insidious growth of Islamic peoples in your midst. And I hope they remain peaceful for the sake of your children.
So when an Iranian, using the rules you are here putting into place, assassinates the American President on the grounds that he is and holds a distinctively Iranian perspective. He thinks in terms of the enemies Iran has, those that use terror to get what they want are my enemy. He is not in a discussion in which he will take the enemies side, you can forget that. The combat actions that happen from Iran out are in defence of his country against groups or militaries that act out in aggression towards Iran or who are planning to attack Iran or who are equiping others to attack Iran or who can threaten and are likely to attack Iran you will not complain about foul tactics or terrorism because is it exactly what you are recommending as a true and just way to run the world.
People see what the US do and get away with and, as with all role models, they mirror the behaviour - as the US acts with its Shock and Awe and its covert arming and supporting of like minded groups and its direct action to force regime change so others will do.
You cannot claim it as acceptable for yourself and condemn it when others do it - that's hypocrisy.
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
Jester;1101560 wrote: I would welcome the attempt as far more honorable than launching a rocket into a civilian populace for the sake of killing innocent civilians to call world attention on ones own country.
I do not and have never said Iran connot defend themselves against what they percieve as thier enemy. by all mean slet them proceed. They just better be able to back up what they start.
And that is the state of world affairs since long before I was born and I dare say since the birth of man, I see no end to it in my lifetime nor in the lifetimes of anyone in the next 15000, years. Beyond that I don't see too well...
Do you not see that, by advocating assassination as a valid tool of international politics you are opening up anarchy for the whole world?
And, by the way, whilst killing two civilians with random rocket fire is not honourable, killing over four hundred with missiles, tanks and other assorted armourments is retaliation is far less so.
I do not and have never said Iran connot defend themselves against what they percieve as thier enemy. by all mean slet them proceed. They just better be able to back up what they start.
And that is the state of world affairs since long before I was born and I dare say since the birth of man, I see no end to it in my lifetime nor in the lifetimes of anyone in the next 15000, years. Beyond that I don't see too well...
Do you not see that, by advocating assassination as a valid tool of international politics you are opening up anarchy for the whole world?
And, by the way, whilst killing two civilians with random rocket fire is not honourable, killing over four hundred with missiles, tanks and other assorted armourments is retaliation is far less so.
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
Jester;1101814 wrote: I'm not adocating assassination as a valid tool of politics.But you did! That's why we're arguing with you!
Jester wrote: he is a valid target in the war on terror, the sooner he is assassinated the better off the world will be. It isnt murder.
Jester wrote: he is a valid target in the war on terror, the sooner he is assassinated the better off the world will be. It isnt murder.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
Jester;1101814 wrote: I'm not adocating assassination as a valid tool of politics. But it is the right of any and all nations to protect and defend its people, and if assassination is required in order to achive that then so be it. International agreement is only as good as the validation that the agreement is continually being kept. Other than that, International politics does not exist.
Again, as I have said many times on here before, there is not global community there are only agreements between soverng nations and they are subject to change at any moment.
As far as rocket launching goes- It does not matter how many are killed, its terrorism. And the people of palistine allowed the regime that lead them, thier suffering although tragic is a consequence of thier choice. They knew Hamas was a militant group when they hired them. Bad choice wasn't it.
I'm a realist Bryn your an idealist. I'd love to afford being both, but it no one can be both. Maybe between the two we can keep a balance.
Jester;1093654 wrote: Oh please, Christ told the people to 'render unto caesars what is caesars'. Christ wasn't bothered by the roman government in control at the time, what makes anyone think he'd take any sides in any government at all.
ahbeenajihadin is a self promoting politician bent on expansionist terrorism. The sooner he's is assassinated the better the world will be. Your government allowed him a plateform to expand his terror base, which is just ridiculous.
Strange - the two highlighted sections don't appear to square with each other. It seems to me that that is exactly what you are advocating.
There is such a think as proportionate response - yes the use of rockets is wrong but the response is inexcusable.
It is also a direct consequence of the breakdown of the UN Humanitarian arm's efforts to get basic supplies through the Israeli blockade - a blockade they maintained throughout the ceasefire despite all calls for it to be lifted.
Do you not think that you would react if you could already see your children starving and dying of preventable disease and cold and the rest of the world then turned their back and washed their hands of you.
And to hell with that being the result of electing a Government - it is murder by abuse of power. First take away a people's land, then prevent then getting any food - then complain when they protest.
If your attitude is realism then I want none of it - realism is blaming those who have the power and cause the deaths rather than those who suffer.
450+ against 2
And this is totally the fault of Hamas?
Give it a rest!
Again, as I have said many times on here before, there is not global community there are only agreements between soverng nations and they are subject to change at any moment.
As far as rocket launching goes- It does not matter how many are killed, its terrorism. And the people of palistine allowed the regime that lead them, thier suffering although tragic is a consequence of thier choice. They knew Hamas was a militant group when they hired them. Bad choice wasn't it.
I'm a realist Bryn your an idealist. I'd love to afford being both, but it no one can be both. Maybe between the two we can keep a balance.
Jester;1093654 wrote: Oh please, Christ told the people to 'render unto caesars what is caesars'. Christ wasn't bothered by the roman government in control at the time, what makes anyone think he'd take any sides in any government at all.
ahbeenajihadin is a self promoting politician bent on expansionist terrorism. The sooner he's is assassinated the better the world will be. Your government allowed him a plateform to expand his terror base, which is just ridiculous.
Strange - the two highlighted sections don't appear to square with each other. It seems to me that that is exactly what you are advocating.
There is such a think as proportionate response - yes the use of rockets is wrong but the response is inexcusable.
It is also a direct consequence of the breakdown of the UN Humanitarian arm's efforts to get basic supplies through the Israeli blockade - a blockade they maintained throughout the ceasefire despite all calls for it to be lifted.
Do you not think that you would react if you could already see your children starving and dying of preventable disease and cold and the rest of the world then turned their back and washed their hands of you.
And to hell with that being the result of electing a Government - it is murder by abuse of power. First take away a people's land, then prevent then getting any food - then complain when they protest.
If your attitude is realism then I want none of it - realism is blaming those who have the power and cause the deaths rather than those who suffer.
450+ against 2
And this is totally the fault of Hamas?
Give it a rest!
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
Bryn Mawr;1101916 wrote: Strange - the two highlighted sections don't appear to square with each other. It seems to me that that is exactly what you are advocating.
There is such a think as proportionate response - yes the use of rockets is wrong but the response is inexcusable.
It is also a direct consequence of the breakdown of the UN Humanitarian arm's efforts to get basic supplies through the Israeli blockade - a blockade they maintained throughout the ceasefire despite all calls for it to be lifted.
Do you not think that you would react if you could already see your children starving and dying of preventable disease and cold and the rest of the world then turned their back and washed their hands of you.
And to hell with that being the result of electing a Government - it is murder by abuse of power. First take away a people's land, then prevent then getting any food - then complain when they protest.If your attitude is realism then I want none of it - realism is blaming those who have the power and cause the deaths rather than those who suffer.
450+ against 2
And this is totally the fault of Hamas?
Give it a rest!
Well said Bryn!!!!
There is such a think as proportionate response - yes the use of rockets is wrong but the response is inexcusable.
It is also a direct consequence of the breakdown of the UN Humanitarian arm's efforts to get basic supplies through the Israeli blockade - a blockade they maintained throughout the ceasefire despite all calls for it to be lifted.
Do you not think that you would react if you could already see your children starving and dying of preventable disease and cold and the rest of the world then turned their back and washed their hands of you.
And to hell with that being the result of electing a Government - it is murder by abuse of power. First take away a people's land, then prevent then getting any food - then complain when they protest.If your attitude is realism then I want none of it - realism is blaming those who have the power and cause the deaths rather than those who suffer.
450+ against 2
And this is totally the fault of Hamas?
Give it a rest!
Well said Bryn!!!!
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
Jester;1102179 wrote: The war is a result of the military actions of Hamas, yes, and they were elected by the poeple, who thought that they could get more by electing Hamas, and they were obviously wrong in their choice of Hamas.
If they had elected a party that would negotiate through the UN then there wouldnt be any war right now and if there was and Israel invaded then they would have a legal recourse through the UN and Israel would be seen as the bully. But Hamas rocketing them has given them the legal right to invade- proportianlty be damned, so long as they attempt to minimize civialian casualties they will be exhonerated from their actions legally.
You guys just arent getting it- The palestinians are suffering anyway regardless if war with israel or not. Had they used the truth of their suffering alone they'd have international help by now, and probably long ago.
The enemy here to both the paletsinians and Israel is Hamas. The palestinians are just in the way.
It's a tragedy, its worse than a tragedy, but Israel must stop the rockets and this is the only way, And the palestinains need to find a way to live, but not in Gaza. And Hamas needs to just roll over and die, cuz thats the process going on right now.
The only way for the palestinians to get help from the outside world is to go Ghandi on everyone. Which means getting rid of Hamas, whos really just using them anyway.
I hate to break this to you Jester - Israel is seen as the bully by everyone in the world except you.
Surprisingly enough, I do agree with you on one point - the only practical route out for the Palestinians is to go Gandhi. They are so far overmatched in every department by their bully neighbours that they have no other options.
The only reason that the Palestinians are suffering is because Israel is determined to destroy them as a people by any means possible using whatever excuses they think might make a difference.
If they had elected a party that would negotiate through the UN then there wouldnt be any war right now and if there was and Israel invaded then they would have a legal recourse through the UN and Israel would be seen as the bully. But Hamas rocketing them has given them the legal right to invade- proportianlty be damned, so long as they attempt to minimize civialian casualties they will be exhonerated from their actions legally.
You guys just arent getting it- The palestinians are suffering anyway regardless if war with israel or not. Had they used the truth of their suffering alone they'd have international help by now, and probably long ago.
The enemy here to both the paletsinians and Israel is Hamas. The palestinians are just in the way.
It's a tragedy, its worse than a tragedy, but Israel must stop the rockets and this is the only way, And the palestinains need to find a way to live, but not in Gaza. And Hamas needs to just roll over and die, cuz thats the process going on right now.
The only way for the palestinians to get help from the outside world is to go Ghandi on everyone. Which means getting rid of Hamas, whos really just using them anyway.
I hate to break this to you Jester - Israel is seen as the bully by everyone in the world except you.
Surprisingly enough, I do agree with you on one point - the only practical route out for the Palestinians is to go Gandhi. They are so far overmatched in every department by their bully neighbours that they have no other options.
The only reason that the Palestinians are suffering is because Israel is determined to destroy them as a people by any means possible using whatever excuses they think might make a difference.
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Omni_Skittles
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The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
my grandma stands firm that Bush raped the country... hahaha i don't share that opinion but every time i hear anything about Bush that's what i think about.
Smoke signals ftw!
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
Omni_Skittles;1102450 wrote: my grandma stands firm that Bush raped the country... hahaha i don't share that opinion but every time i hear anything about Bush that's what i think about.
That is precisely why i told you that you were making inane comments on another thread.
I can only put it down to your age that you would childishly throw 'hahaha' into a thread as serious as this.
So it's absolutely hilarious to you is it, that children are being blown up on both sides??
Grow up if you want to be taken seriously.
That is precisely why i told you that you were making inane comments on another thread.
I can only put it down to your age that you would childishly throw 'hahaha' into a thread as serious as this.
So it's absolutely hilarious to you is it, that children are being blown up on both sides??
Grow up if you want to be taken seriously.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
Jester;1102767 wrote: Then we agree on one point, do you want to tell them abotu Ghandi or should I?
The palestinans are suffering because groups like Hamas who have no real interest in them as a people have stolen their hopes for real change and handed them an army on thier doorsteps bent on thier destruction because Hamas attacked them.
Hamas needs to go, and the palestinians need to sanction directly to the UN. and the US and ask for direct talks and elect thier won leaders, preferably women who want to see thier children grow up unbombed and not strapped to an AK47 and being taught to hate.
Israel because of their history will not lay down thier arms, they are backed to the sea with the entire Arab world hating them- If a palestinain state will ever be realized the people who claim they are palestinian need to denouce terrorism to get what they want.
I know this much and this is why I side with Israel- If Israel layed down thier arms and negotiated a truce and took the ghandi method the arab world would kill every last one of them. If the palestinains declared a truce, laid down their arms, denoucned terrorism, they would not be killed by Israel.
I trust the word of Israel to honor an agreement and unprovoked they would have honered the previous agreement. I do not trust the arab nations to honor a truce. I would need and ask for international monitors of non arab nations to keep and verify the truce.
So thats it in a nutshell for me. I know 90 % of ya wont agree, but I really dont care.
When you join the real world we can discuss this - what you see is not what has been happening over the past twenty years.
Honour!
The palestinans are suffering because groups like Hamas who have no real interest in them as a people have stolen their hopes for real change and handed them an army on thier doorsteps bent on thier destruction because Hamas attacked them.
Hamas needs to go, and the palestinians need to sanction directly to the UN. and the US and ask for direct talks and elect thier won leaders, preferably women who want to see thier children grow up unbombed and not strapped to an AK47 and being taught to hate.
Israel because of their history will not lay down thier arms, they are backed to the sea with the entire Arab world hating them- If a palestinain state will ever be realized the people who claim they are palestinian need to denouce terrorism to get what they want.
I know this much and this is why I side with Israel- If Israel layed down thier arms and negotiated a truce and took the ghandi method the arab world would kill every last one of them. If the palestinains declared a truce, laid down their arms, denoucned terrorism, they would not be killed by Israel.
I trust the word of Israel to honor an agreement and unprovoked they would have honered the previous agreement. I do not trust the arab nations to honor a truce. I would need and ask for international monitors of non arab nations to keep and verify the truce.
So thats it in a nutshell for me. I know 90 % of ya wont agree, but I really dont care.
When you join the real world we can discuss this - what you see is not what has been happening over the past twenty years.
Honour!
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
posted by jester
Israel because of their history will not lay down thier arms, they are backed to the sea with the entire Arab world hating them- If a palestinain state will ever be realized the people who claim they are palestinian need to denouce terrorism to get what they want.
Trouble is it wasn't till they took to terrorism that their cause started getting any kind of hearing. If they'd just caved in they wouldn't exist as a people now. On the other hand they kept with it too long . Violence breeds violence and now it's a way of life. On thing for sure, people of faith on both sides seem determined to keep things bubbling along. That Ghandi's methods worked is perhaps a credit to the British for all of our faults
21st century and we still have wars caused by religion and those who would build empires. If the west pulled out of the middle east sunni and shia would be at each others throats in no time at all. Economics can start a war but you need religion to make it a truly vicious one that runs and runs.
Sooner or later they are going to have to talk to each other. All wars end that way
Israel because of their history will not lay down thier arms, they are backed to the sea with the entire Arab world hating them- If a palestinain state will ever be realized the people who claim they are palestinian need to denouce terrorism to get what they want.
Trouble is it wasn't till they took to terrorism that their cause started getting any kind of hearing. If they'd just caved in they wouldn't exist as a people now. On the other hand they kept with it too long . Violence breeds violence and now it's a way of life. On thing for sure, people of faith on both sides seem determined to keep things bubbling along. That Ghandi's methods worked is perhaps a credit to the British for all of our faults
21st century and we still have wars caused by religion and those who would build empires. If the west pulled out of the middle east sunni and shia would be at each others throats in no time at all. Economics can start a war but you need religion to make it a truly vicious one that runs and runs.
Sooner or later they are going to have to talk to each other. All wars end that way
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
oscar;1102715 wrote: That is precisely why i told you that you were making inane comments on another thread.
I can only put it down to your age that you would childishly throw 'hahaha' into a thread as serious as this.
So it's absolutely hilarious to you is it, that children are being blown up on both sides??
Grow up if you want to be taken seriously.
Oi Mrs stop bashing Skittles, she has been a member here a long time and I am appalled at how you have spoken to her here and on the other thread you mentioned. Please stop calling her childish and as for being taken seriously, take off your ridiculous siggy and we may start taking you seriously too:D
I can only put it down to your age that you would childishly throw 'hahaha' into a thread as serious as this.
So it's absolutely hilarious to you is it, that children are being blown up on both sides??
Grow up if you want to be taken seriously.
Oi Mrs stop bashing Skittles, she has been a member here a long time and I am appalled at how you have spoken to her here and on the other thread you mentioned. Please stop calling her childish and as for being taken seriously, take off your ridiculous siggy and we may start taking you seriously too:D
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
oscar;1092944 wrote: Got to be!!
I can imagine the two of them in private.
George.... Look Tony, just stick to the story and we'll be fine. We'll come out looking like hero's and no-one will care about all the innocent iraqi's we've killed.
Tony... OK Dubya, whatever you say mate.
What a suck up:wah:
I can imagine the two of them in private.
George.... Look Tony, just stick to the story and we'll be fine. We'll come out looking like hero's and no-one will care about all the innocent iraqi's we've killed.
Tony... OK Dubya, whatever you say mate.
What a suck up:wah:
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
posted by jester
I agree, I think the ghandi approach worked in india primarily because Britian didnt want to be seen as the destructor of an entire nationality (besides whats the fun in ruling a country without poeple to occupy it?)
More perhaps they (the establishment that is ) were worried about the reaction of the british people. Bear in mind at around the same time the british were happily using chemical weapons on the Iraqis and happily shooting various odds and sods as seemed appropriate. It just didn't get the same kind of publicity, Bit off topic though.
What do you think the reaction would be if hamas got women and children to sit down in front of the israeli tanks in protest and to stop them advancing. How long would the states continue to support israel if the israelis just opened fire on unarmed civilians en masse rather than just piecemeal acidental killings? Bush et al might not bother but I'd be willing to bet there would be outrage amongst the general US voters. If they can get them to suicide bomb a peaceful protest with a chance of survival might be doable.
Ghandis approach takes a different kind of courage perhaps. As a christian i would have thought his approach would make him one of your heroes:sneaky:
posted by jester
But suffice it to say that this is a war of nations now. I saw a headline today that read 70,000 Iranians volunteered to be suicide bombers on behalf of Hamas. What is Israel to do when they have to live under hatred and threats like that? They have to fight, they have no choice. They must kill Hamas and now all thier allies before they kill Israelis wholesale.
I saw one that said Ian Paisley was having the pope round for Christmas lunch. Not sure I'd believe that either.
I agree, I think the ghandi approach worked in india primarily because Britian didnt want to be seen as the destructor of an entire nationality (besides whats the fun in ruling a country without poeple to occupy it?)
More perhaps they (the establishment that is ) were worried about the reaction of the british people. Bear in mind at around the same time the british were happily using chemical weapons on the Iraqis and happily shooting various odds and sods as seemed appropriate. It just didn't get the same kind of publicity, Bit off topic though.
What do you think the reaction would be if hamas got women and children to sit down in front of the israeli tanks in protest and to stop them advancing. How long would the states continue to support israel if the israelis just opened fire on unarmed civilians en masse rather than just piecemeal acidental killings? Bush et al might not bother but I'd be willing to bet there would be outrage amongst the general US voters. If they can get them to suicide bomb a peaceful protest with a chance of survival might be doable.
Ghandis approach takes a different kind of courage perhaps. As a christian i would have thought his approach would make him one of your heroes:sneaky:
posted by jester
But suffice it to say that this is a war of nations now. I saw a headline today that read 70,000 Iranians volunteered to be suicide bombers on behalf of Hamas. What is Israel to do when they have to live under hatred and threats like that? They have to fight, they have no choice. They must kill Hamas and now all thier allies before they kill Israelis wholesale.
I saw one that said Ian Paisley was having the pope round for Christmas lunch. Not sure I'd believe that either.
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
posted by jester
I give great credit to Ghandi and his passive approach, he had enough of the people's hearts and minds to be able to pull it off, what he didnt have was outside interference by terror groups slipping in their midst and aggitating the British army or launching rockets in innocenty britians.
Sort of half right an half wrong. yes he did manage to win enough hearts and minds to make a difference but you're wrong if you think there weren't terrorist groups (that's what we would call them now) around as well. he was after all killed by a terrorist from his own country. Hundreds of his followers were slaughtered in south africa and in india, passive resistance was not exactly a low risk option. Churchill was all for executing him or letting him starve to death.
As an american though, I would not expect you to know much about the end of the british empire, find it terribly interesting or even remotely relevant. That by the way should not be taken as an anti american comment but just a simple observation.
posted by jester
I think if women and chidlren line the streets in the path of Israel it will delay them while they manually clear them out of the way. If during that time Hamas uses the distraction to attack Israel yer gonna see slaughter of a lot of innocent women and chidlren the outcry will blame Israel but this would be a Hamas fault.
Would be an incredibly effective tactic if they could do it.
posted by jester
By now you ought to know my beliefs are not passive in the face of armed agression. King David was the King with blood on his hands, Solomon was the one who got to build Gods temple in peacetime. I'm a war time beliver, my hands are already bloody, there is only so much I am allowed to do, but I'm realistic about it, like David I have my purpose, maybe my sons will have peace.
Ah so now you would enjoin the palestinians not to be passive in the face of armed aggression? :sneaky: abject surrender not an option then.
If both sides in any dispute always resort to violence in the face of perceived aggression than there will always be escalating violence. Wars always end by both sides sitting down talking to each other. I suppose you could argue that egypt, syria and jordan fought out their disputes and finally sat down to talk.
Actually I can come up with dozens of such platitudes, none of them work really in practice and only seem apposite if you are not directly involved.
I give great credit to Ghandi and his passive approach, he had enough of the people's hearts and minds to be able to pull it off, what he didnt have was outside interference by terror groups slipping in their midst and aggitating the British army or launching rockets in innocenty britians.
Sort of half right an half wrong. yes he did manage to win enough hearts and minds to make a difference but you're wrong if you think there weren't terrorist groups (that's what we would call them now) around as well. he was after all killed by a terrorist from his own country. Hundreds of his followers were slaughtered in south africa and in india, passive resistance was not exactly a low risk option. Churchill was all for executing him or letting him starve to death.
As an american though, I would not expect you to know much about the end of the british empire, find it terribly interesting or even remotely relevant. That by the way should not be taken as an anti american comment but just a simple observation.
posted by jester
I think if women and chidlren line the streets in the path of Israel it will delay them while they manually clear them out of the way. If during that time Hamas uses the distraction to attack Israel yer gonna see slaughter of a lot of innocent women and chidlren the outcry will blame Israel but this would be a Hamas fault.
Would be an incredibly effective tactic if they could do it.
posted by jester
By now you ought to know my beliefs are not passive in the face of armed agression. King David was the King with blood on his hands, Solomon was the one who got to build Gods temple in peacetime. I'm a war time beliver, my hands are already bloody, there is only so much I am allowed to do, but I'm realistic about it, like David I have my purpose, maybe my sons will have peace.
Ah so now you would enjoin the palestinians not to be passive in the face of armed aggression? :sneaky: abject surrender not an option then.
If both sides in any dispute always resort to violence in the face of perceived aggression than there will always be escalating violence. Wars always end by both sides sitting down talking to each other. I suppose you could argue that egypt, syria and jordan fought out their disputes and finally sat down to talk.
Actually I can come up with dozens of such platitudes, none of them work really in practice and only seem apposite if you are not directly involved.
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
Jester;1104519 wrote: Hamas is not the ligitimate 'people of palestine' they are a rougue element bought and paid for by Iran and others. Syria and Iran are the chief suppliers of war materials for Hamas. Hamas Sweeps Palestinian Elections, Complicating Peace Efforts in Mideast
By Scott Wilson
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, January 27, 2006; Page A01
RAMALLAH, West Bank, Jan. 26 -- The radical Islamic movement Hamas won a large majority in the new Palestinian parliament, according to official election results announced Thursday, trouncing the governing Fatah party in a contest that could dramatically reshape the Palestinians' relations with Israel and the rest of the world.
In Wednesday's voting, Hamas claimed 76 of the 132 parliamentary seats, giving the party at war with Israel the right to form the next cabinet under the Palestinian Authority's president, Mahmoud Abbas, the leader of Fatah.
Hamas Sweeps Palestinian Elections, Complicating Peace Efforts in Mideast - washingtonpost.com
You sort of make it up as you go along, Jester. The reality is that Hamas and the Palestinian people are interchangeable ways of describing the same thing, the one emphasising the resistance and the other the suffering. It's the same people, they suffer together and they resist together.
By Scott Wilson
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, January 27, 2006; Page A01
RAMALLAH, West Bank, Jan. 26 -- The radical Islamic movement Hamas won a large majority in the new Palestinian parliament, according to official election results announced Thursday, trouncing the governing Fatah party in a contest that could dramatically reshape the Palestinians' relations with Israel and the rest of the world.
In Wednesday's voting, Hamas claimed 76 of the 132 parliamentary seats, giving the party at war with Israel the right to form the next cabinet under the Palestinian Authority's president, Mahmoud Abbas, the leader of Fatah.
Hamas Sweeps Palestinian Elections, Complicating Peace Efforts in Mideast - washingtonpost.com
You sort of make it up as you go along, Jester. The reality is that Hamas and the Palestinian people are interchangeable ways of describing the same thing, the one emphasising the resistance and the other the suffering. It's the same people, they suffer together and they resist together.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
Jester;1104572 wrote: Ya know yer right, I had totally forgotten that they were elected by the people who is suffering so greatly right now, they are interconnected, the 'palestinians' are just as guilty as Hamas fighters who launched the rockets.
Now Israel doesnt have to be so careful do they, they can just wipe the Hamas fighters out along with the population that elected them...:rolleyes:
We call em ringers here- people who manage to get in the game who don't belong. You can call em what you want, but I'm glad for the sake of the civilian population in Gaza that Israel does not consider them one and the same, or it would truly be a bloodbath.
The israelis also elected the government that is carrying out these actions. As always in reality it is always just a few on both sides that want war, be they religious or political in origin, and drag everybody else in to it. It takes a lot for a people to really keep control of their government and keep them accountable just look at the states or the UK for example and what's done in our name and how our financial and political establishments have just shafted everybody and got away with it.
Israel shelled Gaza Palestinians after evacuating them, UN says | World news | guardian.co.uk
Course with modern day GPS technology and smart weapons it does make it harder to defend such events as accidental. You can't boast about the pin point accuracy of weaponry and then not have questions asked when something like this happens nor can you claim they didn't know they were there-presumably the troops on the ground tell their artillery where they are so, also presumably, they told them who and what and where these people were.
Now Israel doesnt have to be so careful do they, they can just wipe the Hamas fighters out along with the population that elected them...:rolleyes:
We call em ringers here- people who manage to get in the game who don't belong. You can call em what you want, but I'm glad for the sake of the civilian population in Gaza that Israel does not consider them one and the same, or it would truly be a bloodbath.
The israelis also elected the government that is carrying out these actions. As always in reality it is always just a few on both sides that want war, be they religious or political in origin, and drag everybody else in to it. It takes a lot for a people to really keep control of their government and keep them accountable just look at the states or the UK for example and what's done in our name and how our financial and political establishments have just shafted everybody and got away with it.
Israel shelled Gaza Palestinians after evacuating them, UN says | World news | guardian.co.uk
Course with modern day GPS technology and smart weapons it does make it harder to defend such events as accidental. You can't boast about the pin point accuracy of weaponry and then not have questions asked when something like this happens nor can you claim they didn't know they were there-presumably the troops on the ground tell their artillery where they are so, also presumably, they told them who and what and where these people were.
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
Jester;1106118 wrote: Sorry I'm not a boaster in pin point accuracy, although smart weapons are more accurate than ever before, Ive been close in enough times to know that murphy wasn't lying when he included in his Law's of Combat 'smart weapons aren't'.
Add to that spotters who claim rockets being fired out of school grounds and then, after blowing the sh!t out of the kids in the school, admit there were no launchers in the area and you have a real bugger's muddle
Add to that spotters who claim rockets being fired out of school grounds and then, after blowing the sh!t out of the kids in the school, admit there were no launchers in the area and you have a real bugger's muddle
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The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
Bryn Mawr;1107068 wrote: Add to that spotters who claim rockets being fired out of school grounds and then, after blowing the sh!t out of the kids in the school, admit there were no launchers in the area and you have a real bugger's muddle
Add to that, the illegal use of 'White Phosherous' by Israel.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -Gaza.html
Add to that, the illegal use of 'White Phosherous' by Israel.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -Gaza.html
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
oscar;1107071 wrote: Add to that, the illegal use of 'White Phosherous' by Israel.
Israel accused of using illegal white phosphorus shells in Gaza - Telegraph
That's true - have you seen the scenes showing the horrific injuries it's causing?
Israel accused of using illegal white phosphorus shells in Gaza - Telegraph
That's true - have you seen the scenes showing the horrific injuries it's causing?
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The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
Bryn Mawr;1107073 wrote: That's true - have you seen the scenes showing the horrific injuries it's causing?
Not as yet Bryn. I am doing some googling tonight to catch up on the latest. I can imagine though. Similar to Napalm used by America in Vietnam.
I found this one very interesting.
Raising Yousuf and Noor: diary of a Palestinian mother
Not as yet Bryn. I am doing some googling tonight to catch up on the latest. I can imagine though. Similar to Napalm used by America in Vietnam.
I found this one very interesting.
Raising Yousuf and Noor: diary of a Palestinian mother
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
They even have the brass neck to admit to using it.
Israel admits using phosphorus bombs during war in Lebanon - Haaretz - Israel News
Israel admits using phosphorus bombs during war in Lebanon - Haaretz - Israel News
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
oscar;1107075 wrote: Not as yet Bryn. I am doing some googling tonight to catch up on the latest. I can imagine though. Similar to Napalm used by America in Vietnam.
I found this one very interesting.
Raising Yousuf and Noor: diary of a Palestinian mother
Did you note the interview where an Israeli politician admitted that they'd been planning this invasion since *before* the signing of the last cease fire? Is this acting with honour?
Knesset Member Yuval Steinitz, head of the Knesset Defense Readiness and Fighting Terrorism Committee, tells Aljazeera's Imran Garda they had planned the Gaza invasion for 8-9 months.
I found this one very interesting.
Raising Yousuf and Noor: diary of a Palestinian mother
Did you note the interview where an Israeli politician admitted that they'd been planning this invasion since *before* the signing of the last cease fire? Is this acting with honour?
Knesset Member Yuval Steinitz, head of the Knesset Defense Readiness and Fighting Terrorism Committee, tells Aljazeera's Imran Garda they had planned the Gaza invasion for 8-9 months.
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The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
Bryn Mawr;1107082 wrote: Did you note the interview where an Israeli politician admitted that they'd been planning this invasion since *before* the signing of the last cease fire? Is this acting with honour?
Yes, agreed. From everything i have read, I always believed that the Israeli's had been planning this and used latest rocket attacks by Hamas as the excuse.
It just backs up my theory that Israel wants rid of the Palistinian people..full stop.
I think it goes far beyong using intelligence to track down Hamas but a more sinister stratagy all together.
What i don't understand, is why when the whole world can see Israel for what they are... Why does America continue to back them?
Yes, agreed. From everything i have read, I always believed that the Israeli's had been planning this and used latest rocket attacks by Hamas as the excuse.
It just backs up my theory that Israel wants rid of the Palistinian people..full stop.
I think it goes far beyong using intelligence to track down Hamas but a more sinister stratagy all together.
What i don't understand, is why when the whole world can see Israel for what they are... Why does America continue to back them?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
oscar;1107085 wrote: Yes, agreed. From everything i have read, I always believed that the Israeli's had been planning this and used latest rocket attacks by Hamas as the excuse.
It just backs up my theory that Israel wants rid of the Palistinian people..full stop.
I think it goes far beyong using intelligence to track down Hamas but a more sinister stratagy all together.
What i don't understand, is why when the whole world can see Israel for what they are... Why does America continue to back them?
The number of votes they can carry against those who do not support them.
It just backs up my theory that Israel wants rid of the Palistinian people..full stop.
I think it goes far beyong using intelligence to track down Hamas but a more sinister stratagy all together.
What i don't understand, is why when the whole world can see Israel for what they are... Why does America continue to back them?
The number of votes they can carry against those who do not support them.
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The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
Bryn Mawr;1107089 wrote: The number of votes they can carry against those who do not support them.
Do you think with the world calling for a cease-fire that Obama may withdraw American support after all these years?
Do you think with the world calling for a cease-fire that Obama may withdraw American support after all these years?
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The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
I just looked at tomorrow's paper's and Israel is to intensify their attacks on Gaza.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-storie ... -21030982/
Is it time for the rest of the world to step in and stop Israel once and for all?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-storie ... -21030982/
Is it time for the rest of the world to step in and stop Israel once and for all?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
You can think of a way to do that, can you? It's baffled a lot of people for a long while now.
Nobody can intervene militarily in Israel, Israel has the bomb. They have 100% protection against total war, like every other nuclear power has.
A trade boycott might get somewhere but it would be illegal in the USA, they passed a law against it. It's illegal in the US to even fail to report an attempt to discover whether Israeli components are incorporated in US goods much less to organize a boycott.
Nobody can intervene militarily in Israel, Israel has the bomb. They have 100% protection against total war, like every other nuclear power has.
A trade boycott might get somewhere but it would be illegal in the USA, they passed a law against it. It's illegal in the US to even fail to report an attempt to discover whether Israeli components are incorporated in US goods much less to organize a boycott.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
spot;1107105 wrote: You can think of a way to do that, can you? It's baffled a lot of people for a long while now.
Nobody can intervene militarily in Israel, Israel has the bomb. They have 100% protection against total war, like every other nuclear power has.
A trade boycott might get somewhere but it would be illegal in the USA, they passed a law against it. It's illegal in the US to even fail to report an attempt to discover whether Israeli components are incorporated in US goods much less to organize a boycott.
No, i can't think of a way to do that. as you say, it's baffled many for so long.
There is also too much jewish money in America.
Sanctions or trade boycotts would be useless unless the US did the same and i don't think that will ever happen.
With Obama about to take office, let's just hope he denounces Bush's support for Israel.
Can't America see that if Hamas are a terrorist organisation, then the way forward is the same as global war on terror with intelligence tracking, not bombing the ***** out of innocent children. It has been confirmed that one third of palistinian victems are children. Israel has now admited they have used illegal white phosherous.
The world is already critical of America due to Bush foriegn policy in Iraq. This is just harming them all the more.
Nobody can intervene militarily in Israel, Israel has the bomb. They have 100% protection against total war, like every other nuclear power has.
A trade boycott might get somewhere but it would be illegal in the USA, they passed a law against it. It's illegal in the US to even fail to report an attempt to discover whether Israeli components are incorporated in US goods much less to organize a boycott.
No, i can't think of a way to do that. as you say, it's baffled many for so long.
There is also too much jewish money in America.
Sanctions or trade boycotts would be useless unless the US did the same and i don't think that will ever happen.
With Obama about to take office, let's just hope he denounces Bush's support for Israel.
Can't America see that if Hamas are a terrorist organisation, then the way forward is the same as global war on terror with intelligence tracking, not bombing the ***** out of innocent children. It has been confirmed that one third of palistinian victems are children. Israel has now admited they have used illegal white phosherous.
The world is already critical of America due to Bush foriegn policy in Iraq. This is just harming them all the more.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
oscar;1107101 wrote: I just looked at tomorrow's paper's and Israel is to intensify their attacks on Gaza.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-storie ... -21030982/
Is it time for the rest of the world to step in and stop Israel once and for all?
It is way past time for the rest of the world to say enough - how they can stop it I do not know.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-storie ... -21030982/
Is it time for the rest of the world to step in and stop Israel once and for all?
It is way past time for the rest of the world to say enough - how they can stop it I do not know.
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The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
Bryn Mawr;1107139 wrote: It is way past time for the rest of the world to say enough - how they can stop it I do not know.
The rioting is turning violent also and we are the one's calling for a cease-fire.
Cities across the world become platform for hundreds of thousands of protesters against Gaza fighting | Mail Online
The rioting is turning violent also and we are the one's calling for a cease-fire.
Cities across the world become platform for hundreds of thousands of protesters against Gaza fighting | Mail Online
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
oscar;1107130 wrote: With Obama about to take office, let's just hope he denounces Bush's support for Israel.
President-elect Obama isn't going to do a single thing that's not in the immediate interests of the United States and nobody could expect him to. Denouncing President Bush isn't in the interest of the United States. Neither, I expect, is finalizing any genuine independence for Palestine. The only people who can ever fix what's broken over there are the Israeli electorate, just as it was white South Africans who ended up abolishing apartheid.
The sole power Hamas has is to force the Israeli government to keep killing women and children and eventually, since no Israeli government can resist falling into the trap of blind obedience, local public opinion will elect a rebel Israeli government that's prepared to make a just political settlement. That's how Northern Ireland was finally mended by making it all about stopping the violence instead of what it was really always about,civil liberties.
President-elect Obama isn't going to do a single thing that's not in the immediate interests of the United States and nobody could expect him to. Denouncing President Bush isn't in the interest of the United States. Neither, I expect, is finalizing any genuine independence for Palestine. The only people who can ever fix what's broken over there are the Israeli electorate, just as it was white South Africans who ended up abolishing apartheid.
The sole power Hamas has is to force the Israeli government to keep killing women and children and eventually, since no Israeli government can resist falling into the trap of blind obedience, local public opinion will elect a rebel Israeli government that's prepared to make a just political settlement. That's how Northern Ireland was finally mended by making it all about stopping the violence instead of what it was really always about,civil liberties.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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The Bush Presidency - a post-mortem autopsy
spot;1107146 wrote: President-elect Obama isn't going to do a single thing that's not in the immediate interests of the United States and nobody could expect him to. Denouncing President Bush isn't in the interest of the United States. Neither, I expect, is finalizing any genuine independence for Palestine. The only people who can ever fix what's broken over there are the Israeli electorate, just as it was white South Africans who ended up abolishing apartheid.
The sole power Hamas has is to force the Israeli government to keep killing women and children and eventually, since no Israeli government can resist falling into the trap of blind obedience, local public opinion will elect a rebel Israeli government that's prepared to make a just political settlement. That's how Northern Ireland was finally mended by making it all about stopping the violence instead of what it was really always about,civil liberties.
As usual Spot, you are right. What can Obama do?
With the riots turning ugly, i can see this getting far far worse and possibly other countries becoming involved.
The sole power Hamas has is to force the Israeli government to keep killing women and children and eventually, since no Israeli government can resist falling into the trap of blind obedience, local public opinion will elect a rebel Israeli government that's prepared to make a just political settlement. That's how Northern Ireland was finally mended by making it all about stopping the violence instead of what it was really always about,civil liberties.
As usual Spot, you are right. What can Obama do?
With the riots turning ugly, i can see this getting far far worse and possibly other countries becoming involved.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon