Do you think that we will ever see any Israeli names at the bottom of the page at this link? Actually, the page isn't long and is very informative in the 3rd paragraph, actually the entire page is very informative.
War crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But I have work again tomorrow so I will say goodnight to all for now.
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
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Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Scrat;1114811 wrote: That's the only solution I see. A multinational force to bomb every military base and every militiary storage yard there in Israel out of existance. Occupation by force of the entire area both Palestinian and Israeli with soldiers who have no goal/loyalty other than to bring lasting peace.
No guns allowed, people possessing weapons of any kind will be shot on the spot. If necessary this will also include kitchenware and all forms of metal. Keep in mind that we're essentially dealing with thuggish mentalities all the way around. Find the thugs and shoot them, to the last individual. Anyone so much as raises a finger to any member of the international force that finger gets removed. If a Palestinian is killed maliciously by a Jew, a Jew dies. If a Jew dies, so dies a Palestinian.
Terrorize the terrorizers. On both sides. Give me 500k soldiers and the equipment and support I need and I will solve the problem.
Once again after this latest assault on Gaza, we are reminded that the true victems are the innocents which have consisted mostly of children.
Each and every time the conflict has flared in the Middle East, lessons never seem to have been learned. We can not sit by and watch a repeat of this slaughter again. It needs world leaders to come together once and for all and build lasting peace instead of constantly papering over the cracks.
I don't have the answers but i wish i did.
No guns allowed, people possessing weapons of any kind will be shot on the spot. If necessary this will also include kitchenware and all forms of metal. Keep in mind that we're essentially dealing with thuggish mentalities all the way around. Find the thugs and shoot them, to the last individual. Anyone so much as raises a finger to any member of the international force that finger gets removed. If a Palestinian is killed maliciously by a Jew, a Jew dies. If a Jew dies, so dies a Palestinian.
Terrorize the terrorizers. On both sides. Give me 500k soldiers and the equipment and support I need and I will solve the problem.
Once again after this latest assault on Gaza, we are reminded that the true victems are the innocents which have consisted mostly of children.
Each and every time the conflict has flared in the Middle East, lessons never seem to have been learned. We can not sit by and watch a repeat of this slaughter again. It needs world leaders to come together once and for all and build lasting peace instead of constantly papering over the cracks.
I don't have the answers but i wish i did.
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Bryn Mawr;1114680 wrote: There is fault on both side but you are right, until someone reigns in Israel's ambition there will be no peace.
Where I disagree with you is " the only solution is to arm the Palestinians and let Israel get back some of what they have put out. " - adding fuel to the fire will only make the situation worse, we need to reduce Israel's firepower rather than increase that of the Palestinians.
At the heart of the Israel/Palestine conflict lies the question of land and who rules it. The collision of Jewish nationalist colonization and Palestinian nationalism, both laying claim to the same territory, forms the basis of this long conflict, deepened by the tragedies of the Holocaust and of the dispossession and occupation of Palestine. The United Nations partition of the land in 1947, an effort to resolve the two claims simultaneously, did not result in a lasting settlement.
Since the war of 1967, Palestinians have come to accept the reality of Israel within the 1948 boundaries. The land dispute has increasingly focused on Israel's occupation of the remaining territories -- the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem. UN Resolutions 242 and 338 stipulate that Israel must withdraw completely from these territories. Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip on 12 September 2005, but continues to build many Jewish settlements in the other territories, actions deemed illegal by virtually all other states. The Oslo Accords (1993) and the Road Map (2003) have failed to reach a land agreement between the parties or to bring Israeli withdrawal.
Since 2002, the Israeli government has been building a "security fence" that winds deep into Palestinian territory, claiming the barrier would keep Palestinian suicide bombers from striking Israeli citizens. But this separation wall is a major de facto annexation of Palestinian territories. By building the wall and increasing settlement expansion, Israel retains control over important Palestinian economic areas, agricultural grounds and natural resources like water. The International Court of Justice has ruled that Israel's West Bank barrier violates international law, but the unequal struggle over the land of Palestine continues.
Bryn, this is what is on the link with the maps that I posted earlier. As I stated I don't like violence, but as you can see Israel refuses to acknowledge any borders. How do you propose to stop them from simply taking what they want? Who do you think should 'babysit' Israel and keep them in line on their own side of the border? Peacekeepers? Sounds great, but for how long Bryn, 20 years, 40, 100 years perhaps? At whose expense? Do you think that Israel will accept that? I don't. With Chertoff being in charge of the US presidents 'well being' do you honestly think the US will stop arming Israel?
I'll take a guess at what might happen though. What Israel has done has spread all over this planet. With Obama coming in Chertoff may pull the reins in a bit on Israel so that things calm down for awhile. But he is as aware of psychology as you are Bryn, and he knows that in a few years time people's tongues will stop talking and move on to other things. And then what will happen, Israel will start all over again, taking and taking more not caring who gets hurt as long as it's not them.
Israel must be made to withdraw from Palestine and give back all the land that it has forcibly 'stolen'. It must be made to help rebuild all that it trashed instead of giving the expense to other countries. Who is going to enforce this Bryn? The only answer left to deal with what they are doing is to arm the Palestinians so at least it is a fair fight. How would you feel if someone were to walk into your home illegally, kill your loved ones, lock you in one little closet, beat you when he/they feel like it, feed you a starvation diet, give you as little water as possible and not let you have medical assistance when you needed it, and your calls for help go unaided. Do you think that you might wish you had a weapon? If someone gave you one do you think you would be grateful for the help Bryn? Sometimes all we have to do is imagine ourselves in the other persons situation.
I don't like violence as I stated, but sometimes that is the only avenue left available when dealing with a certain kind of people.
Where I disagree with you is " the only solution is to arm the Palestinians and let Israel get back some of what they have put out. " - adding fuel to the fire will only make the situation worse, we need to reduce Israel's firepower rather than increase that of the Palestinians.
At the heart of the Israel/Palestine conflict lies the question of land and who rules it. The collision of Jewish nationalist colonization and Palestinian nationalism, both laying claim to the same territory, forms the basis of this long conflict, deepened by the tragedies of the Holocaust and of the dispossession and occupation of Palestine. The United Nations partition of the land in 1947, an effort to resolve the two claims simultaneously, did not result in a lasting settlement.
Since the war of 1967, Palestinians have come to accept the reality of Israel within the 1948 boundaries. The land dispute has increasingly focused on Israel's occupation of the remaining territories -- the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem. UN Resolutions 242 and 338 stipulate that Israel must withdraw completely from these territories. Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip on 12 September 2005, but continues to build many Jewish settlements in the other territories, actions deemed illegal by virtually all other states. The Oslo Accords (1993) and the Road Map (2003) have failed to reach a land agreement between the parties or to bring Israeli withdrawal.
Since 2002, the Israeli government has been building a "security fence" that winds deep into Palestinian territory, claiming the barrier would keep Palestinian suicide bombers from striking Israeli citizens. But this separation wall is a major de facto annexation of Palestinian territories. By building the wall and increasing settlement expansion, Israel retains control over important Palestinian economic areas, agricultural grounds and natural resources like water. The International Court of Justice has ruled that Israel's West Bank barrier violates international law, but the unequal struggle over the land of Palestine continues.
Bryn, this is what is on the link with the maps that I posted earlier. As I stated I don't like violence, but as you can see Israel refuses to acknowledge any borders. How do you propose to stop them from simply taking what they want? Who do you think should 'babysit' Israel and keep them in line on their own side of the border? Peacekeepers? Sounds great, but for how long Bryn, 20 years, 40, 100 years perhaps? At whose expense? Do you think that Israel will accept that? I don't. With Chertoff being in charge of the US presidents 'well being' do you honestly think the US will stop arming Israel?
I'll take a guess at what might happen though. What Israel has done has spread all over this planet. With Obama coming in Chertoff may pull the reins in a bit on Israel so that things calm down for awhile. But he is as aware of psychology as you are Bryn, and he knows that in a few years time people's tongues will stop talking and move on to other things. And then what will happen, Israel will start all over again, taking and taking more not caring who gets hurt as long as it's not them.
Israel must be made to withdraw from Palestine and give back all the land that it has forcibly 'stolen'. It must be made to help rebuild all that it trashed instead of giving the expense to other countries. Who is going to enforce this Bryn? The only answer left to deal with what they are doing is to arm the Palestinians so at least it is a fair fight. How would you feel if someone were to walk into your home illegally, kill your loved ones, lock you in one little closet, beat you when he/they feel like it, feed you a starvation diet, give you as little water as possible and not let you have medical assistance when you needed it, and your calls for help go unaided. Do you think that you might wish you had a weapon? If someone gave you one do you think you would be grateful for the help Bryn? Sometimes all we have to do is imagine ourselves in the other persons situation.
I don't like violence as I stated, but sometimes that is the only avenue left available when dealing with a certain kind of people.
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Peter Lake
- Posts: 1031
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Scrat;1114864 wrote: I'm not saying I do either but an occupation by a 3rd party strict and even brutal if necessary, has not been tried.
There are elements in societies who only understand a club or a bullet, then there are the ones who don't even understand when that is applied.
I must say that the US Army has squashed the insurgency in Iraq for the most part. How was it done? Many of the insurgents are dead. Prolonged pressure to root these guys out. They are still there but they are not near as effective as they were.
Look at Russia in the Caucasus. When Putin sent the troops back into Chechneya those guys went in there with what was essentially orders to bring law and order by any means necessary. While they were there they also kicked the snot out of all the neighbors too. The Russians were brutal, they did kill innocent people and the FSB to this day is killing people who even think of causing trouble. They'll do it in the dark of night or broad daylight.
I saw a 15 minute video on a Russian website of a Chechen caught in Ingushetia with a fake Russian passport. They took him off the bus, took him to a barn and they shot him in the head 3 times. There was no trial, there was no lawyers no media but the people there recording it. The killed him because the passport he carried was a fake. No other reason.
In 2008 in Ingushetia, 5 people who were part of an NGO there have been killed by the FSB. 1, a woman fled the country with her children and has not been heard of since.
It's not nice, it's not pleasant. It's not civilized. But was Beslan civilized? Has another Beslan happened? Is the Caucasus at war with itself like in was for almost the whole decade of the '90s? Was the Caucasus civilized then?
It's not perfect to this day but like Iraq, it is nowhere near as bad as it was. If Russia had not done what they did those people would still be killing one another to this day. I think the same may be true for Iraq. Saddam used brutality to keep his bad people in check. For the most part it worked. He was ruthless, his police snuffed the slightest dissent brutally. Al-Qaida didn't dare poke it's head into Iraq with Saddam there. With the brutal force America used there it is mostly quiet now, at least not near as chaotic.
Somebody needs to do the same thing to the Isrealis and the Palestinians. Like misbehaving children, they need their arses whipped with a vengeance.
I agree with the principle of your belief. Everything has been tried in the Middle East and the options are running out. My idea is to simply give the Palistine people of which they have been denied by the Jews. If this requires an outside force in order to obtain long standing peace, then it may be the only way forward.
Possibly we could have outside forces in Israel and Gaza, a neutral army to ensure these changes are brought about. However, i fear that the Israeli government would not roll over and let this happen. They are a defiant law unto themselves and i believe will always continue to be so regardless of the consequences for their own people and that of Gaza. Then, we have to deal with the nation that funds Israel in the first instance.
There are elements in societies who only understand a club or a bullet, then there are the ones who don't even understand when that is applied.
I must say that the US Army has squashed the insurgency in Iraq for the most part. How was it done? Many of the insurgents are dead. Prolonged pressure to root these guys out. They are still there but they are not near as effective as they were.
Look at Russia in the Caucasus. When Putin sent the troops back into Chechneya those guys went in there with what was essentially orders to bring law and order by any means necessary. While they were there they also kicked the snot out of all the neighbors too. The Russians were brutal, they did kill innocent people and the FSB to this day is killing people who even think of causing trouble. They'll do it in the dark of night or broad daylight.
I saw a 15 minute video on a Russian website of a Chechen caught in Ingushetia with a fake Russian passport. They took him off the bus, took him to a barn and they shot him in the head 3 times. There was no trial, there was no lawyers no media but the people there recording it. The killed him because the passport he carried was a fake. No other reason.
In 2008 in Ingushetia, 5 people who were part of an NGO there have been killed by the FSB. 1, a woman fled the country with her children and has not been heard of since.
It's not nice, it's not pleasant. It's not civilized. But was Beslan civilized? Has another Beslan happened? Is the Caucasus at war with itself like in was for almost the whole decade of the '90s? Was the Caucasus civilized then?
It's not perfect to this day but like Iraq, it is nowhere near as bad as it was. If Russia had not done what they did those people would still be killing one another to this day. I think the same may be true for Iraq. Saddam used brutality to keep his bad people in check. For the most part it worked. He was ruthless, his police snuffed the slightest dissent brutally. Al-Qaida didn't dare poke it's head into Iraq with Saddam there. With the brutal force America used there it is mostly quiet now, at least not near as chaotic.
Somebody needs to do the same thing to the Isrealis and the Palestinians. Like misbehaving children, they need their arses whipped with a vengeance.
I agree with the principle of your belief. Everything has been tried in the Middle East and the options are running out. My idea is to simply give the Palistine people of which they have been denied by the Jews. If this requires an outside force in order to obtain long standing peace, then it may be the only way forward.
Possibly we could have outside forces in Israel and Gaza, a neutral army to ensure these changes are brought about. However, i fear that the Israeli government would not roll over and let this happen. They are a defiant law unto themselves and i believe will always continue to be so regardless of the consequences for their own people and that of Gaza. Then, we have to deal with the nation that funds Israel in the first instance.
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Amber Sun;1114867 wrote: At the heart of the Israel/Palestine conflict lies the question of land and who rules it. The collision of Jewish nationalist colonization and Palestinian nationalism, both laying claim to the same territory, forms the basis of this long conflict, deepened by the tragedies of the Holocaust and of the dispossession and occupation of Palestine. The United Nations partition of the land in 1947, an effort to resolve the two claims simultaneously, did not result in a lasting settlement.
Since the war of 1967, Palestinians have come to accept the reality of Israel within the 1948 boundaries. The land dispute has increasingly focused on Israel's occupation of the remaining territories -- the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem. UN Resolutions 242 and 338 stipulate that Israel must withdraw completely from these territories. Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip on 12 September 2005, but continues to build many Jewish settlements in the other territories, actions deemed illegal by virtually all other states. The Oslo Accords (1993) and the Road Map (2003) have failed to reach a land agreement between the parties or to bring Israeli withdrawal.
Since 2002, the Israeli government has been building a "security fence" that winds deep into Palestinian territory, claiming the barrier would keep Palestinian suicide bombers from striking Israeli citizens. But this separation wall is a major de facto annexation of Palestinian territories. By building the wall and increasing settlement expansion, Israel retains control over important Palestinian economic areas, agricultural grounds and natural resources like water. The International Court of Justice has ruled that Israel's West Bank barrier violates international law, but the unequal struggle over the land of Palestine continues.
Bryn, this is what is on the link with the maps that I posted earlier. As I stated I don't like violence, but as you can see Israel refuses to acknowledge any borders. How do you propose to stop them from simply taking what they want? Who do you think should 'babysit' Israel and keep them in line on their own side of the border? Peacekeepers? Sounds great, but for how long Bryn, 20 years, 40, 100 years perhaps? At whose expense? Do you think that Israel will accept that? I don't. With Chertoff being in charge of the US presidents 'well being' do you honestly think the US will stop arming Israel?
I'll take a guess at what might happen though. What Israel has done has spread all over this planet. With Obama coming in Chertoff may pull the reins in a bit on Israel so that things calm down for awhile. But he is as aware of psychology as you are Bryn, and he knows that in a few years time people's tongues will stop talking and move on to other things. And then what will happen, Israel will start all over again, taking and taking more not caring who gets hurt as long as it's not them.
Israel must be made to withdraw from Palestine and give back all the land that it has forcibly 'stolen'. It must be made to help rebuild all that it trashed instead of giving the expense to other countries. Who is going to enforce this Bryn? The only answer left to deal with what they are doing is to arm the Palestinians so at least it is a fair fight. How would you feel if someone were to walk into your home illegally, kill your loved ones, lock you in one little closet, beat you when he/they feel like it, feed you a starvation diet, give you as little water as possible and not let you have medical assistance when you needed it, and your calls for help go unaided. Do you think that you might wish you had a weapon? If someone gave you one do you think you would be grateful for the help Bryn? Sometimes all we have to do is imagine ourselves in the other persons situation.
I don't like violence as I stated, but sometimes that is the only avenue left available when dealing with a certain kind of people.
The article you quote does not go far enough - whilst it mentions Israel retaining control over natural resources like water it does not make it clear that one of the main reasons for the illegal settlements is that they are almost all built on and around *the* water source in that area and that the settlers refuse access to the water to the Palestinian farmers who rely on it. Whilst it mentions the wall and the annexation of territory it does not mention that it was deliberately routed so as to split villages from the lands farmed by the people who live in them, it completely neglects to mention the abuse of building registration rules in East Jerusalem and the destruction of many thousands of Palestinian homes etc. etc.
Israel, however, cannot do this alone in the face of concerted international pressure and sanctions. They only get away with it because of the support they receive - political, financial and military. Withdraw that support, apply the UN Mandates and the sanctions that have so far been blocked and Israel would be unable to continue to act in the way that they are currently doing.
Before you arm both sides and start a bloodbath (that Israel would win anyway, given the support she's receiving) we should try removing the extra power that's being put in and de-stabalising the area.
Since the war of 1967, Palestinians have come to accept the reality of Israel within the 1948 boundaries. The land dispute has increasingly focused on Israel's occupation of the remaining territories -- the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem. UN Resolutions 242 and 338 stipulate that Israel must withdraw completely from these territories. Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip on 12 September 2005, but continues to build many Jewish settlements in the other territories, actions deemed illegal by virtually all other states. The Oslo Accords (1993) and the Road Map (2003) have failed to reach a land agreement between the parties or to bring Israeli withdrawal.
Since 2002, the Israeli government has been building a "security fence" that winds deep into Palestinian territory, claiming the barrier would keep Palestinian suicide bombers from striking Israeli citizens. But this separation wall is a major de facto annexation of Palestinian territories. By building the wall and increasing settlement expansion, Israel retains control over important Palestinian economic areas, agricultural grounds and natural resources like water. The International Court of Justice has ruled that Israel's West Bank barrier violates international law, but the unequal struggle over the land of Palestine continues.
Bryn, this is what is on the link with the maps that I posted earlier. As I stated I don't like violence, but as you can see Israel refuses to acknowledge any borders. How do you propose to stop them from simply taking what they want? Who do you think should 'babysit' Israel and keep them in line on their own side of the border? Peacekeepers? Sounds great, but for how long Bryn, 20 years, 40, 100 years perhaps? At whose expense? Do you think that Israel will accept that? I don't. With Chertoff being in charge of the US presidents 'well being' do you honestly think the US will stop arming Israel?
I'll take a guess at what might happen though. What Israel has done has spread all over this planet. With Obama coming in Chertoff may pull the reins in a bit on Israel so that things calm down for awhile. But he is as aware of psychology as you are Bryn, and he knows that in a few years time people's tongues will stop talking and move on to other things. And then what will happen, Israel will start all over again, taking and taking more not caring who gets hurt as long as it's not them.
Israel must be made to withdraw from Palestine and give back all the land that it has forcibly 'stolen'. It must be made to help rebuild all that it trashed instead of giving the expense to other countries. Who is going to enforce this Bryn? The only answer left to deal with what they are doing is to arm the Palestinians so at least it is a fair fight. How would you feel if someone were to walk into your home illegally, kill your loved ones, lock you in one little closet, beat you when he/they feel like it, feed you a starvation diet, give you as little water as possible and not let you have medical assistance when you needed it, and your calls for help go unaided. Do you think that you might wish you had a weapon? If someone gave you one do you think you would be grateful for the help Bryn? Sometimes all we have to do is imagine ourselves in the other persons situation.
I don't like violence as I stated, but sometimes that is the only avenue left available when dealing with a certain kind of people.
The article you quote does not go far enough - whilst it mentions Israel retaining control over natural resources like water it does not make it clear that one of the main reasons for the illegal settlements is that they are almost all built on and around *the* water source in that area and that the settlers refuse access to the water to the Palestinian farmers who rely on it. Whilst it mentions the wall and the annexation of territory it does not mention that it was deliberately routed so as to split villages from the lands farmed by the people who live in them, it completely neglects to mention the abuse of building registration rules in East Jerusalem and the destruction of many thousands of Palestinian homes etc. etc.
Israel, however, cannot do this alone in the face of concerted international pressure and sanctions. They only get away with it because of the support they receive - political, financial and military. Withdraw that support, apply the UN Mandates and the sanctions that have so far been blocked and Israel would be unable to continue to act in the way that they are currently doing.
Before you arm both sides and start a bloodbath (that Israel would win anyway, given the support she's receiving) we should try removing the extra power that's being put in and de-stabalising the area.
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Bryn Mawr;1114878 wrote: The article you quote does not go far enough - whilst it mentions Israel retaining control over natural resources like water it does not make it clear that one of the main reasons for the illegal settlements is that they are almost all built on and around *the* water source in that area and that the settlers refuse access to the water to the Palestinian farmers who rely on it. Whilst it mentions the wall and the annexation of territory it does not mention that it was deliberately routed so as to split villages from the lands farmed by the people who live in them, it completely neglects to mention the abuse of building registration rules in East Jerusalem and the destruction of many thousands of Palestinian homes etc. etc.
Israel, however, cannot do this alone in the face of concerted international pressure and sanctions. They only get away with it because of the support they receive - political, financial and military. Withdraw that support, apply the UN Mandates and the sanctions that have so far been blocked and Israel would be unable to continue to act in the way that they are currently doing.
Before you arm both sides and start a bloodbath (that Israel would win anyway, given the support she's receiving) we should try removing the extra power that's being put in and de-stabalising the area.
The article I quoted from Bryn is a link to the maps of how much Palestinian land Israel has illegally encroached on. It was not meant to outline the whole war and all that it entails hun. I agree with you and the others about stopping any military aid from getting into Israel, I just don't think that this will ever happen on a permanent basis. What I quoted also shows that Israel cannot be trusted to honor 'peace talks'. So what can anyone do with a country or a people that don't honor peace talks? As much as I don't like it I think I have to agree with scat when he states "There are elements in societies who only understand a club or a bullet".
Peter Lake suggests "Then, we have to deal with the nation that funds Israel in the first instance.
This is a terrific idea, but what nation is going to make the US stop sending military aid? Other countries are cautious about getting involved as this may lead to all sorts of problems. Even the other Muslims are scared to get involved.
From what I have read in this thread, and particularly the last few posts, hatred is rising hard and heavy among the Palestinians. They are being tortured and slaughtered while the world sits by and watches. Israel doesn't even care about it's own. I know of a young Jewish woman who now sits alone with empty chairs all around her. A few months ago she would walk into the office and be part of a crowd. Now she is ostracized, even in the apartment block she lives in. I kind of figured something like this would happen, but it wasn't until this morning that I realized the full extent of it.
I don't attend demonstrations but about a week ago one was held here in Winnipeg. 500 Jews attended to back off about 50 people who wanted our government to do something about what is happening to the Palestinians. This of course was on our city news and in the paper. With this kind of response our government isn't in a big hurry to do to much. Not that our current gov't is worth much anyway but that's beside the point. We have far too many Jews here that can put far too much pressure on our gov't to back off. I know that the Canadian gov't won't stand up against the Jewish community nor will it go up against the US in behalf of the Palestinians. Canada is currently being led by Harper who is no more than a puppet that does as he's told.
To sum this up Bryn Israel is not only hurting the Palestinians but all of their own people living in other geographical regions. All sympathies are with the Palestinians and the talk this morning at work was just as I had suggested on this thread that the Palestinians have to be armed also so they can defend themselves. It was even suggested by someone this morning at work that Lebanon attack from the other side and that Iran get in there also. An out and out blood bath, no doubt. But it will put the Israelis back into place. Now Bryn I don't know how much I agree with this but then I'm sitting comfortably in my living room, drinking my coffee after having much lunch and tapping away on my comp. I know that I would probably concur with the above statements if I was in Palestine.
Israel, however, cannot do this alone in the face of concerted international pressure and sanctions. They only get away with it because of the support they receive - political, financial and military. Withdraw that support, apply the UN Mandates and the sanctions that have so far been blocked and Israel would be unable to continue to act in the way that they are currently doing.
Before you arm both sides and start a bloodbath (that Israel would win anyway, given the support she's receiving) we should try removing the extra power that's being put in and de-stabalising the area.
The article I quoted from Bryn is a link to the maps of how much Palestinian land Israel has illegally encroached on. It was not meant to outline the whole war and all that it entails hun. I agree with you and the others about stopping any military aid from getting into Israel, I just don't think that this will ever happen on a permanent basis. What I quoted also shows that Israel cannot be trusted to honor 'peace talks'. So what can anyone do with a country or a people that don't honor peace talks? As much as I don't like it I think I have to agree with scat when he states "There are elements in societies who only understand a club or a bullet".
Peter Lake suggests "Then, we have to deal with the nation that funds Israel in the first instance.
This is a terrific idea, but what nation is going to make the US stop sending military aid? Other countries are cautious about getting involved as this may lead to all sorts of problems. Even the other Muslims are scared to get involved.
From what I have read in this thread, and particularly the last few posts, hatred is rising hard and heavy among the Palestinians. They are being tortured and slaughtered while the world sits by and watches. Israel doesn't even care about it's own. I know of a young Jewish woman who now sits alone with empty chairs all around her. A few months ago she would walk into the office and be part of a crowd. Now she is ostracized, even in the apartment block she lives in. I kind of figured something like this would happen, but it wasn't until this morning that I realized the full extent of it.
I don't attend demonstrations but about a week ago one was held here in Winnipeg. 500 Jews attended to back off about 50 people who wanted our government to do something about what is happening to the Palestinians. This of course was on our city news and in the paper. With this kind of response our government isn't in a big hurry to do to much. Not that our current gov't is worth much anyway but that's beside the point. We have far too many Jews here that can put far too much pressure on our gov't to back off. I know that the Canadian gov't won't stand up against the Jewish community nor will it go up against the US in behalf of the Palestinians. Canada is currently being led by Harper who is no more than a puppet that does as he's told.
To sum this up Bryn Israel is not only hurting the Palestinians but all of their own people living in other geographical regions. All sympathies are with the Palestinians and the talk this morning at work was just as I had suggested on this thread that the Palestinians have to be armed also so they can defend themselves. It was even suggested by someone this morning at work that Lebanon attack from the other side and that Iran get in there also. An out and out blood bath, no doubt. But it will put the Israelis back into place. Now Bryn I don't know how much I agree with this but then I'm sitting comfortably in my living room, drinking my coffee after having much lunch and tapping away on my comp. I know that I would probably concur with the above statements if I was in Palestine.
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Amber Sun;1115299 wrote: The article I quoted from Bryn is a link to the maps of how much Palestinian land Israel has illegally encroached on. It was not meant to outline the whole war and all that it entails hun. I agree with you and the others about stopping any military aid from getting into Israel, I just don't think that this will ever happen on a permanent basis. What I quoted also shows that Israel cannot be trusted to honor 'peace talks'. So what can anyone do with a country or a people that don't honor peace talks?
I know, I opened the link and read the article when you first posted it - I used very similar maps from an almost identical article when I was arguing with a militant Israeli member here called Golem a couple of years ago.
Whilst there is no pressure on Israel to honour the agreements they make in peace talks then why should they do so. For as long as they are protected from the consequences of breaking their word then they will speak with forked tongue. It is up to the international community to sanction them for any breach of the agreements they enter into.
Amber Sun;1115299 wrote: As much as I don't like it I think I have to agree with scat when he states "There are elements in societies who only understand a club or a bullet".
Peter Lake suggests "Then, we have to deal with the nation that funds Israel in the first instance.
This is a terrific idea, but what nation is going to make the US stop sending military aid? Other countries are cautious about getting involved as this may lead to all sorts of problems. Even the other Muslims are scared to get involved.
I fear that it was the club and the bullet that made the Israelis what they are. To use them again would achieve little in the long term.
The only nation that can make the US stop giving military aid to Israel is the US. Until there is a change of policy the Middle East problem will continue and will continue to get worse.
Amber Sun;1115299 wrote:
From what I have read in this thread, and particularly the last few posts, hatred is rising hard and heavy among the Palestinians. They are being tortured and slaughtered while the world sits by and watches. Israel doesn't even care about it's own. I know of a young Jewish woman who now sits alone with empty chairs all around her. A few months ago she would walk into the office and be part of a crowd. Now she is ostracized, even in the apartment block she lives in. I kind of figured something like this would happen, but it wasn't until this morning that I realized the full extent of it.
The Jewish Chronicle here is reporting the worst upsurge of attacks they can remember. I'm against it, the Jews here are not responsible and can do very little to affect what's going on - go for the ones causing the trouble, not the innocent bystanders.
Amber Sun;1115299 wrote:
I don't attend demonstrations but about a week ago one was held here in Winnipeg. 500 Jews attended to back off about 50 people who wanted our government to do something about what is happening to the Palestinians. This of course was on our city news and in the paper. With this kind of response our government isn't in a big hurry to do to much. Not that our current gov't is worth much anyway but that's beside the point. We have far too many Jews here that can put far too much pressure on our gov't to back off. I know that the Canadian gov't won't stand up against the Jewish community nor will it go up against the US in behalf of the Palestinians. Canada is currently being led by Harper who is no more than a puppet that does as he's told.
We've had mass demonstrations outside the Israeli Embassy here - big news but the only effect was to bring the Police onto the streets to prevent them getting close. Demonstrations in other countries will not change the mind of the Knesset, that can only happen if the Israeli people speak or if the international community apply pressure.
Amber Sun;1115299 wrote:
To sum this up Bryn Israel is not only hurting the Palestinians but all of their own people living in other geographical regions. All sympathies are with the Palestinians and the talk this morning at work was just as I had suggested on this thread that the Palestinians have to be armed also so they can defend themselves. It was even suggested by someone this morning at work that Lebanon attack from the other side and that Iran get in there also. An out and out blood bath, no doubt. But it will put the Israelis back into place. Now Bryn I don't know how much I agree with this but then I'm sitting comfortably in my living room, drinking my coffee after having much lunch and tapping away on my comp. I know that I would probably concur with the above statements if I was in Palestine.
As I said previously, I do not believe that the best way to resolve a conflict is to supply the fighters with more weapons - we give them to the Palestinians and you can bet the US will give them to the Israelis and so the merry-go-round goes on.
Iran, Lebanon and the Palestinians between them do not have the power to hurt Israel - if all the Arab states could not do it in 1967 or 1973 then they have no chance now.
The answer is to restrict the weapons available and to do that the US must be persuaded to cut the supply. Yes, Israel have an internal weapons industry but with US support taken away and solid international pressure applied, Israel could be brought to the negotiation table and made to honour the pledges made.
I know, I opened the link and read the article when you first posted it - I used very similar maps from an almost identical article when I was arguing with a militant Israeli member here called Golem a couple of years ago.
Whilst there is no pressure on Israel to honour the agreements they make in peace talks then why should they do so. For as long as they are protected from the consequences of breaking their word then they will speak with forked tongue. It is up to the international community to sanction them for any breach of the agreements they enter into.
Amber Sun;1115299 wrote: As much as I don't like it I think I have to agree with scat when he states "There are elements in societies who only understand a club or a bullet".
Peter Lake suggests "Then, we have to deal with the nation that funds Israel in the first instance.
This is a terrific idea, but what nation is going to make the US stop sending military aid? Other countries are cautious about getting involved as this may lead to all sorts of problems. Even the other Muslims are scared to get involved.
I fear that it was the club and the bullet that made the Israelis what they are. To use them again would achieve little in the long term.
The only nation that can make the US stop giving military aid to Israel is the US. Until there is a change of policy the Middle East problem will continue and will continue to get worse.
Amber Sun;1115299 wrote:
From what I have read in this thread, and particularly the last few posts, hatred is rising hard and heavy among the Palestinians. They are being tortured and slaughtered while the world sits by and watches. Israel doesn't even care about it's own. I know of a young Jewish woman who now sits alone with empty chairs all around her. A few months ago she would walk into the office and be part of a crowd. Now she is ostracized, even in the apartment block she lives in. I kind of figured something like this would happen, but it wasn't until this morning that I realized the full extent of it.
The Jewish Chronicle here is reporting the worst upsurge of attacks they can remember. I'm against it, the Jews here are not responsible and can do very little to affect what's going on - go for the ones causing the trouble, not the innocent bystanders.
Amber Sun;1115299 wrote:
I don't attend demonstrations but about a week ago one was held here in Winnipeg. 500 Jews attended to back off about 50 people who wanted our government to do something about what is happening to the Palestinians. This of course was on our city news and in the paper. With this kind of response our government isn't in a big hurry to do to much. Not that our current gov't is worth much anyway but that's beside the point. We have far too many Jews here that can put far too much pressure on our gov't to back off. I know that the Canadian gov't won't stand up against the Jewish community nor will it go up against the US in behalf of the Palestinians. Canada is currently being led by Harper who is no more than a puppet that does as he's told.
We've had mass demonstrations outside the Israeli Embassy here - big news but the only effect was to bring the Police onto the streets to prevent them getting close. Demonstrations in other countries will not change the mind of the Knesset, that can only happen if the Israeli people speak or if the international community apply pressure.
Amber Sun;1115299 wrote:
To sum this up Bryn Israel is not only hurting the Palestinians but all of their own people living in other geographical regions. All sympathies are with the Palestinians and the talk this morning at work was just as I had suggested on this thread that the Palestinians have to be armed also so they can defend themselves. It was even suggested by someone this morning at work that Lebanon attack from the other side and that Iran get in there also. An out and out blood bath, no doubt. But it will put the Israelis back into place. Now Bryn I don't know how much I agree with this but then I'm sitting comfortably in my living room, drinking my coffee after having much lunch and tapping away on my comp. I know that I would probably concur with the above statements if I was in Palestine.
As I said previously, I do not believe that the best way to resolve a conflict is to supply the fighters with more weapons - we give them to the Palestinians and you can bet the US will give them to the Israelis and so the merry-go-round goes on.
Iran, Lebanon and the Palestinians between them do not have the power to hurt Israel - if all the Arab states could not do it in 1967 or 1973 then they have no chance now.
The answer is to restrict the weapons available and to do that the US must be persuaded to cut the supply. Yes, Israel have an internal weapons industry but with US support taken away and solid international pressure applied, Israel could be brought to the negotiation table and made to honour the pledges made.
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Scrat;1115714 wrote: In theory this sounds great but this is what it comes down to. Nothing in America is going to change by human initiative.
Obama has promised 'Change'.
Obama has promised 'Change'.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Scrat;1115714 wrote: In theory this sounds great but this is what it comes down to. Nothing in America is going to change by human initiative.
Until it does nothing on God's Earth will resolve the situation.
Until it does nothing on God's Earth will resolve the situation.
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Scrat;1115726 wrote: He also pledged fealty to Israel not too far back. It seems America and Barak Obama are having a honeymoon. I never even walked down the aisle with the rest of the people. I'll believe it when I see it.
Sadly Scrat, i share your your opinion.
:(
The latest on Israel's use of white phospherous.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... s-use.html
Sadly Scrat, i share your your opinion.
:(The latest on Israel's use of white phospherous.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... s-use.html
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon