This week what has transpired on this side of the pond is truly gobsmaking.
In my own country, its become apparent that as recently as September 2008 (which was after Lehman), that two Irish banks at least were colluding with each other to cook their deposit books (and thereby decieve their own shareholders, we know private companies don't work in the public interest, but you would imagine they would at least work in the interest of their own shareholders and not deceive them?).
Also this was during the month when the Irish government Bank guarentee scheme was initiated extending the liabilities of the banks of about Eu400,000,000,000 thats 400 billion euro onto the taxpayer. Since then, one of these banks (Anglo Irish) has since been nationalized, and is turning out to be little more than a slush fund for a lot of rich people, while the other bank's chairman only resigned, once it was made to clear to him that there are serious criminal charges being considered by the government.
However, whatever happens, its clear that our government put the authority of the State on the line in trying to prop up the banking system, and that may prove to have been a catastrophic decision as things unfold, considering just how bad some of these institutions have turned out to be.
The mood of the people here is getting as close to all out revolt as I have ever known, the anger is palpable, and it won't take much more of this bull before serious civil unrest breaks out. The political class only seem to be dimly coming to the realization of how serious the situation is really becoming, some Ministers seem to get the point that its either the banker's heads, or their own at this point, though.
Meanwhile, in Britain its become apparent that the deputy Chairman of the British Financial Services Authority (or the FSA) (he has now resigned BTW, and was appointed by Gordon Brown), actually fired his own risk-assessment manager when he was the Head of the failed bank HBOS, when the Risk manger became alarmed at the way the company was allowing itself to be exposed to very serious liabilities back in 2004/2005.
Of course, inevitably, the bank subsequently failed last year, and the British government decided upon a forced merger of HBOS, with a better run bank, Lloyds; but now the merged Lloyds/HBOS bank may actually be dragged down by HBOS, thereby requiring even more billions of borrowed U.K. Taxpayers money.
The whistleblower, Paul Moore, was fired for telling the head of the bank that his business strategy was causing systematic risk to the bank, which has turned out to be entirely correct. His dismissal was "investigated" at the time, but was rubber-stamped by the FSA, despite the serious concerns it should have raised. The fact that many of the people that sit on the FSA already sit or once headed the non-executive boards of Banks, may explain why regulation was essentially non-existent.
As a consequence of what has happened in the City of London, the British taxpayers are now underwriting the debts of these banks collectively, to the tune of trillions of pounds. Now Paul Moore has turned his fire on the Prime Minister and claims he has direct evidence that Gordon Brown was aware of the situation that was developing in HBOS much earlier than he has previously admitted.
We are kinda in uncharted territory at the moment, one of our own government ministers has accused certain Irish financial institutions of "economic treason" and many people here agree with that, I am sure that many people in Britain feel the same about their own financial elite who seem to almost be acting like subversives in undermining the foundations of the state itself in the name of their own economic gain.
Watch what happens in Britain and Ireland this week, I have a feeling that things are going to get very interesting, particularly in Ireland, we are in a terrible, terrible mess right now, its going to be a very difficult period for us.
For American posters, you should watch very carefully what happens in London, as the City of London is (or was) Europe's financial centre, and second only to New York in terms of its importance in Global Capitalism. Its apparent that the people who ran the city and many of its most powerful institutions and companies are thoroughly compromised, and that has very significant consequences for the country, and also for global Capitalism itself.
The latest revelations on the banking crisis
The latest revelations on the banking crisis
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
The latest revelations on the banking crisis
Did you not once have Jonathan Swift on one of your Euro banknotes, Galbally? He's the man to have said what needs saying, you'd best ask for him back.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The latest revelations on the banking crisis
spot;1135164 wrote: Did you not once have Jonathan Swift on one of your Euro banknotes, Galbally? He's the man to have said what needs saying, you'd best ask for him back.
He's with O'Leary in the grave Spot. At least we have Euro banknotes, thank god, or else we would already be like Iceland.
In any case, we are in real trouble now, there is no about it; what's your take on the latest revelations my Welsh friend?
He's with O'Leary in the grave Spot. At least we have Euro banknotes, thank god, or else we would already be like Iceland.
In any case, we are in real trouble now, there is no about it; what's your take on the latest revelations my Welsh friend?
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
The latest revelations on the banking crisis
Galbally;1135166 wrote: He's with O'Leary in the grave Spot.
No - they're on the outside, looking in.
I for one have no desire to switch horses mid-race, not over here anyhow.
There has to be imposed limits on pay. Organizations like that all have to be not-for-profit corporations with no shareholders. Obviously these companies can compete tooth and claw if that helps them become lean and mean and their directors can go to jail if their managements collude but the reason they're short-termist, which is the source of these crises, is dividend pressure. All of these essential national utilities like the banks and power and water and waste have to go onto a non-profit track aside from the grubbing capitalists. They're obviously the necessity of life to the nation and they need treating as such.
No - they're on the outside, looking in.
I for one have no desire to switch horses mid-race, not over here anyhow.
There has to be imposed limits on pay. Organizations like that all have to be not-for-profit corporations with no shareholders. Obviously these companies can compete tooth and claw if that helps them become lean and mean and their directors can go to jail if their managements collude but the reason they're short-termist, which is the source of these crises, is dividend pressure. All of these essential national utilities like the banks and power and water and waste have to go onto a non-profit track aside from the grubbing capitalists. They're obviously the necessity of life to the nation and they need treating as such.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The latest revelations on the banking crisis
spot;1135174 wrote: No - they're on the outside, looking in.
I for one have no desire to switch horses mid-race, not over here anyhow.
There has to be imposed limits on pay. Organizations like that all have to be not-for-profit corporations with no shareholders. Obviously these companies can compete tooth and claw if that helps them become lean and mean and their directors can go to jail if their managements collude but the reason they're short-termist, which is the source of these crises, is dividend pressure. All of these essential national utilities like the banks and power and water and waste have to go onto a non-profit track aside from the grubbing capitalists. They're obviously the necessity of life to the nation and they need treating as such.
I don't think it would be feasible to switch to the Euro even if you wanted to Spot, not with your current financial position, and most people over there don't want to so its not an issue; your issue is to not allow Sterling to collapse as that will open up an even worse can of worms for Britain than you already have.
In Ireland, we also had a firm of once reputed auditors "Ersnt and Young" point blank refusing to attend a Dail Committee meeting into the banking crisis, and they may have to be compelled by the state to do so. While the Board of Irish Life and Permanent deliberately ignored pressure from the government for its chairman to resign, essentially giving the State the two fingers. Its actually unbelieveable, and there are going to be serious political consequences once the shock dissipates, and the realization and anger fully set in. And people are already furious.
Its my own opinion that essentially you are right; we need to seperate out the system of retail banking from commercial banking, and retail banking to individuals and business is going to have be nationalized in a manner that keeps the politicians at arms length from lending decisions, while ensuring that the basis on which the money supply is run is actually in the interest of the Nation and not the other way around.
Let the financiers have their commercial banks, as separate entities; they can be privately owned shareholder companies, and if they screw up let them go to the wall, as they should, without dragging the state and taxpayer money into it.
In terms of dealing with current situation, there can be no solution in general that isn't a global one. But on a national level, certainly the whole system is going to have to be uprooted and fundamentally changed; banking, regulation, Governmental oversight, as well as a general cultural realization that neoliberal Capitialist ideas have turned out to be just as much rubbish as Soviet communism was, that particular illusion is dead.
Also, of course, many many people have to be fired, ill-gotten gains clawed back, governments are going to have to fall, and some people are going to have to go to jail, certainly in Ireland they will, there is no other outcome that is acceptable at this stage.
I for one have no desire to switch horses mid-race, not over here anyhow.
There has to be imposed limits on pay. Organizations like that all have to be not-for-profit corporations with no shareholders. Obviously these companies can compete tooth and claw if that helps them become lean and mean and their directors can go to jail if their managements collude but the reason they're short-termist, which is the source of these crises, is dividend pressure. All of these essential national utilities like the banks and power and water and waste have to go onto a non-profit track aside from the grubbing capitalists. They're obviously the necessity of life to the nation and they need treating as such.
I don't think it would be feasible to switch to the Euro even if you wanted to Spot, not with your current financial position, and most people over there don't want to so its not an issue; your issue is to not allow Sterling to collapse as that will open up an even worse can of worms for Britain than you already have.
In Ireland, we also had a firm of once reputed auditors "Ersnt and Young" point blank refusing to attend a Dail Committee meeting into the banking crisis, and they may have to be compelled by the state to do so. While the Board of Irish Life and Permanent deliberately ignored pressure from the government for its chairman to resign, essentially giving the State the two fingers. Its actually unbelieveable, and there are going to be serious political consequences once the shock dissipates, and the realization and anger fully set in. And people are already furious.
Its my own opinion that essentially you are right; we need to seperate out the system of retail banking from commercial banking, and retail banking to individuals and business is going to have be nationalized in a manner that keeps the politicians at arms length from lending decisions, while ensuring that the basis on which the money supply is run is actually in the interest of the Nation and not the other way around.
Let the financiers have their commercial banks, as separate entities; they can be privately owned shareholder companies, and if they screw up let them go to the wall, as they should, without dragging the state and taxpayer money into it.
In terms of dealing with current situation, there can be no solution in general that isn't a global one. But on a national level, certainly the whole system is going to have to be uprooted and fundamentally changed; banking, regulation, Governmental oversight, as well as a general cultural realization that neoliberal Capitialist ideas have turned out to be just as much rubbish as Soviet communism was, that particular illusion is dead.
Also, of course, many many people have to be fired, ill-gotten gains clawed back, governments are going to have to fall, and some people are going to have to go to jail, certainly in Ireland they will, there is no other outcome that is acceptable at this stage.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
The latest revelations on the banking crisis
The really terrible thing is that most businesses in Ireland are small companies run by hardworking decent people, doing their best to make a living and giving others jobs.
These people are losing their livihoods and their jobs at a rate we cannot sustain.
What's happening now is wiping out the good companies and businesses and wrecking the economy, not only here, but worldwide, all for the greed and folly of the few at the top and their political fellow travellers.
Its disgusting.
These people are losing their livihoods and their jobs at a rate we cannot sustain.
What's happening now is wiping out the good companies and businesses and wrecking the economy, not only here, but worldwide, all for the greed and folly of the few at the top and their political fellow travellers.
Its disgusting.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
The latest revelations on the banking crisis
Scrat;1135233 wrote: Thankyou Galbally. I wish you luck.
Thanks Scrat, its hard to know exactly what is going to happen. Well, I have my own stuff to do in terms of my work, so I will just keep going along and doing what needs to be done in my own life really. I'm not that material anyway, so I don't really give a stuff about money; though of course I can't ignore whats happening, as its effecting everyone. Anyway, we'll be grand. Whiskey and Potatoes, that will get us through, and the auld song or two as well of course! :guitarist
Thanks Scrat, its hard to know exactly what is going to happen. Well, I have my own stuff to do in terms of my work, so I will just keep going along and doing what needs to be done in my own life really. I'm not that material anyway, so I don't really give a stuff about money; though of course I can't ignore whats happening, as its effecting everyone. Anyway, we'll be grand. Whiskey and Potatoes, that will get us through, and the auld song or two as well of course! :guitarist
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The latest revelations on the banking crisis
Galbally;1135213 wrote: The really terrible thing is that most businesses in Ireland are small companies run by hardworking decent people, doing their best to make a living and giving others jobs.
These people are losing their livihoods and their jobs at a rate we cannot sustain.
What's happening now is wiping out the good companies and businesses and wrecking the economy, not only here, but worldwide, all for the greed and folly of the few at the top and their political fellow travellers.
Its disgusting.
I read up last night on'Paul Moore' the whistle blower here. In one piece i read on him, he said that the bank was lending to pople who did not have a hope in hell of repaying it in their life-time. I have said this many times on other threads, but Greedy banks lend to Greedy people.
As in any crisis, innocents will suffer but why are business's going bust then galbally? My families and friends business's are not going bust, they are not having their houses re-possessed. Maybe because we grew up to live within our means?
These people are losing their livihoods and their jobs at a rate we cannot sustain.
What's happening now is wiping out the good companies and businesses and wrecking the economy, not only here, but worldwide, all for the greed and folly of the few at the top and their political fellow travellers.
Its disgusting.
I read up last night on'Paul Moore' the whistle blower here. In one piece i read on him, he said that the bank was lending to pople who did not have a hope in hell of repaying it in their life-time. I have said this many times on other threads, but Greedy banks lend to Greedy people.
As in any crisis, innocents will suffer but why are business's going bust then galbally? My families and friends business's are not going bust, they are not having their houses re-possessed. Maybe because we grew up to live within our means?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The latest revelations on the banking crisis
oscar;1135367 wrote: I read up last night on'Paul Moore' the whistle blower here. In one piece i read on him, he said that the bank was lending to pople who did not have a hope in hell of repaying it in their life-time. I have said this many times on other threads, but Greedy banks lend to Greedy people.
As in any crisis, innocents will suffer but why are business's going bust then galbally? My families and friends business's are not going bust, they are not having their houses re-possessed. Maybe because we grew up to live within our means?
Because businesses need credit lines to function Oscar that's why. I know a friend of mine has a restaurant, its not a fancy restaurant, its a good quality place, with cheap good food, he has worked for years with his wife to build it up, 12 hours a day, now its threatened because the bank wants to withdraw a 1,000 euro overdraft he has to pay suppliers etc etc. His business is not unsound, he is not lazy, he didn't spend millions trying to do stupid or impossible things, he is just runnning a small business.
My cousins work in Birmingham in JaguarLandrover, hey are just working guys with small houses, and with very ordinary lives, they are probably going to lose everything, they are not lazy, they don't own yachts, they didn't borrow money for anything other than to buy their houses with their wives.
It doesn't matter how careful you are with money or smug about how hard you work, if the economy collapses then many, many hardworking people will go to the wall; thats the reality. Sure plenty of people have over-extended themselves and been foolish (But not all, by any means), now, frankly, it doens't matter at this stage, if you only owe 50,000 for your house, it might as well be 50,000,0000 if you don't have any money.
There are plenty of people who have never bought into all this nonsense consumerism, but if they need jobs to feed their kids, or want to stay in houses they have mortgages on then they are equally in trouble now as the person who has gone bannanas and spend 30,000 on holidays or on false boobs. People who have saved for 40 years for pensions are seeing them wiped out, small shareholders are being wiped out, people who bought little two-up two downs with small mortgages are being wiped out. What do you say to those people? Tough, you were greedy and irresponsible, or just stupid for thinking that finanical institutions were run by people with honour and integrity?
You don't seem to realize that this isn't going to be like the 80s, its a financial calamity, the impact on the economy is only really starting now, and its going to get an awful lot worse. This is going to be a depression, and many of the good are going to go down with the less wise, all that matters is whether you keep your job or not, and thats a lottery at this stage. Ultimately yes, we are all responsible for buying into the nonsense or not doing more to stop it, but the people who are responsible for making decisions, and are well paid for it cannot walk away from their responsibilities.
As in any crisis, innocents will suffer but why are business's going bust then galbally? My families and friends business's are not going bust, they are not having their houses re-possessed. Maybe because we grew up to live within our means?
Because businesses need credit lines to function Oscar that's why. I know a friend of mine has a restaurant, its not a fancy restaurant, its a good quality place, with cheap good food, he has worked for years with his wife to build it up, 12 hours a day, now its threatened because the bank wants to withdraw a 1,000 euro overdraft he has to pay suppliers etc etc. His business is not unsound, he is not lazy, he didn't spend millions trying to do stupid or impossible things, he is just runnning a small business.
My cousins work in Birmingham in JaguarLandrover, hey are just working guys with small houses, and with very ordinary lives, they are probably going to lose everything, they are not lazy, they don't own yachts, they didn't borrow money for anything other than to buy their houses with their wives.
It doesn't matter how careful you are with money or smug about how hard you work, if the economy collapses then many, many hardworking people will go to the wall; thats the reality. Sure plenty of people have over-extended themselves and been foolish (But not all, by any means), now, frankly, it doens't matter at this stage, if you only owe 50,000 for your house, it might as well be 50,000,0000 if you don't have any money.
There are plenty of people who have never bought into all this nonsense consumerism, but if they need jobs to feed their kids, or want to stay in houses they have mortgages on then they are equally in trouble now as the person who has gone bannanas and spend 30,000 on holidays or on false boobs. People who have saved for 40 years for pensions are seeing them wiped out, small shareholders are being wiped out, people who bought little two-up two downs with small mortgages are being wiped out. What do you say to those people? Tough, you were greedy and irresponsible, or just stupid for thinking that finanical institutions were run by people with honour and integrity?
You don't seem to realize that this isn't going to be like the 80s, its a financial calamity, the impact on the economy is only really starting now, and its going to get an awful lot worse. This is going to be a depression, and many of the good are going to go down with the less wise, all that matters is whether you keep your job or not, and thats a lottery at this stage. Ultimately yes, we are all responsible for buying into the nonsense or not doing more to stop it, but the people who are responsible for making decisions, and are well paid for it cannot walk away from their responsibilities.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The latest revelations on the banking crisis
Galbally;1135438 wrote: Because businesses need credit lines to function Oscar that's why. I know a friend of mine has a restaurant, its not a fancy restaurant, its a good quality place, with cheap good food, he has worked for years with his wife to build it up, 12 hours a day, now its threatened because the bank wants to withdraw a 1,000 euro overdraft he has to pay suppliers etc etc. His business is not unsound, he is not lazy, he didn't spend millions trying to do stupid or impossible things, he is just runnning a small business.
My cousins work in Birmingham in JaguarLandrover, hey are just working guys with small houses, and with very ordinary lives, they are probably going to lose everything, they are not lazy, they don't own yachts, they didn't borrow money for anything other than to buy their houses with their wives.
It doesn't matter how careful you are with money or smug about how hard you work, if the economy collapses then many, many hardworking people will go to the wall; thats the reality. Sure plenty of people have over-extended themselves and been foolish (But not all, by any means), now, frankly, it doens't matter at this stage, if you only owe 50,000 for your house, it might as well be 50,000,0000 if you don't have any money.
There are plenty of people who have never bought into all this nonsense consumerism, but if they need jobs to feed their kids, or want to stay in houses they have mortgages on then they are equally in trouble now as the person who has gone bannanas and spend 30,000 on holidays or on false boobs. People who have saved for 40 years for pensions are seeing them wiped out, small shareholders are being wiped out, people who bought little two-up two downs with small mortgages are being wiped out. What do you say to those people? Tough, you were greedy and irresponsible, or just stupid for thinking that finanical institutions were run by people with honour and integrity?
You don't seem to realize that this isn't going to be like the 80s, its a financial calamity, the impact on the economy is only really starting now, and its going to get an awful lot worse. This is going to be a depression, and many of the good are going to go down with the less wise, all that matters is whether you keep your job or not, and thats a lottery at this stage. Ultimately yes, we are all responsible for buying into the nonsense or not doing more to stop it, but the people who are responsible for making decisions, and are well paid for it cannot walk away from their responsibilities. Well sorry but i dis-agree. I am not smug that my family and friends are not losing their business's or homes, i simply asked why you think it has not happened to them.
Without boring you again but look at the example of Woolworths. Jobs were lost but at no fault to the government just sheer lunacy of the reckless borrowing from the company.
I may sound as hard as Thatcher when i say this:......Most people who buy a house, business or a home have a belief that there is never going to be bad times ahead and do not claculate those risks and be accountable for them. When you buy a house or business or take on a job...... where does it say that it is the governments duty to keep you in that job? Or bail out your company when you are losing your job because the bosses or shareholders made the wrong decisions? Or bail out your business because you borrowed too much on credit instead of re-investing profit back into the growth of your business? Or save your house because you thought your job was going to last for-ever and did no risk calculation?
The only way oout of this is when everyone realises they are accountable and it is not up to governments to wipe your backside for you because you made the wrong choices in life.
I know people who do not even have basic house contents insurence because they live in a world of 'It will never happen to me'.
My cousins work in Birmingham in JaguarLandrover, hey are just working guys with small houses, and with very ordinary lives, they are probably going to lose everything, they are not lazy, they don't own yachts, they didn't borrow money for anything other than to buy their houses with their wives.
It doesn't matter how careful you are with money or smug about how hard you work, if the economy collapses then many, many hardworking people will go to the wall; thats the reality. Sure plenty of people have over-extended themselves and been foolish (But not all, by any means), now, frankly, it doens't matter at this stage, if you only owe 50,000 for your house, it might as well be 50,000,0000 if you don't have any money.
There are plenty of people who have never bought into all this nonsense consumerism, but if they need jobs to feed their kids, or want to stay in houses they have mortgages on then they are equally in trouble now as the person who has gone bannanas and spend 30,000 on holidays or on false boobs. People who have saved for 40 years for pensions are seeing them wiped out, small shareholders are being wiped out, people who bought little two-up two downs with small mortgages are being wiped out. What do you say to those people? Tough, you were greedy and irresponsible, or just stupid for thinking that finanical institutions were run by people with honour and integrity?
You don't seem to realize that this isn't going to be like the 80s, its a financial calamity, the impact on the economy is only really starting now, and its going to get an awful lot worse. This is going to be a depression, and many of the good are going to go down with the less wise, all that matters is whether you keep your job or not, and thats a lottery at this stage. Ultimately yes, we are all responsible for buying into the nonsense or not doing more to stop it, but the people who are responsible for making decisions, and are well paid for it cannot walk away from their responsibilities. Well sorry but i dis-agree. I am not smug that my family and friends are not losing their business's or homes, i simply asked why you think it has not happened to them.
Without boring you again but look at the example of Woolworths. Jobs were lost but at no fault to the government just sheer lunacy of the reckless borrowing from the company.
I may sound as hard as Thatcher when i say this:......Most people who buy a house, business or a home have a belief that there is never going to be bad times ahead and do not claculate those risks and be accountable for them. When you buy a house or business or take on a job...... where does it say that it is the governments duty to keep you in that job? Or bail out your company when you are losing your job because the bosses or shareholders made the wrong decisions? Or bail out your business because you borrowed too much on credit instead of re-investing profit back into the growth of your business? Or save your house because you thought your job was going to last for-ever and did no risk calculation?
The only way oout of this is when everyone realises they are accountable and it is not up to governments to wipe your backside for you because you made the wrong choices in life.
I know people who do not even have basic house contents insurence because they live in a world of 'It will never happen to me'.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The latest revelations on the banking crisis
oscar;1135497 wrote: Well sorry but i dis-agree. I am not smug that my family and friends are not losing their business's or homes, i simply asked why you think it has not happened to them.
Without boring you again but look at the example of Woolworths. Jobs were lost but at no fault to the government just sheer lunacy of the reckless borrowing from the company.
I may sound as hard as Thatcher when i say this:......Most people who buy a house, business or a home have a belief that there is never going to be bad times ahead and do not claculate those risks and be accountable for them. When you buy a house or business or take on a job...... where does it say that it is the governments duty to keep you in that job? Or bail out your company when you are losing your job because the bosses or shareholders made the wrong decisions? Or bail out your business because you borrowed too much on credit instead of re-investing profit back into the growth of your business? Or save your house because you thought your job was going to last for-ever and did no risk calculation?
The only way oout of this is when everyone realises they are accountable and it is not up to governments to wipe your backside for you because you made the wrong choices in life.
I know people who do not even have basic house contents insurence because they live in a world of 'It will never happen to me'.
Right, the stupid public get what they deserve, but for financial institutions its perfectly acceptable to take the tax money of all these same poor, stupid, ordinary saps (who are about to be made unemployed or go bankrupt, or be taxed to the hilt if they are lucky enough to remain in employment) and hand it over to them. The citizens can pay, pay, pay and be lectured to by economists about how its actually their own fault; while the banking corporations are essentially 100 percent bailed out to the tune of tens of billions of pounds, and get to keep their fancy job based on the fact that they are now "sorry" that they have driven the entire foundations of the economy onto the rocks with a business model that was entirely nuts???
What are you on about? Who do you think created an economy based on consumer spending, banks that gave out borrowed money like drugs in the playground, and a housing market where the average house was 7 times the average industrial wage? Was is Dazza looking for 10,000 for his souped Corsa? Or Michelle with her first home in Doncaster? Or was it the bosses of Barclays, HBOS, RBS, Citigroup, Lehman, and their cheerleaders in Governments right across the western world etc etc. Get a sense of perspective here, ordinary people don't get to decide how things work, they just pay for it.
Most of the bad loans of these banks that your going to be paying for for the rest of your life are not residential mortage loans, or personal loans, people are paying those loans, (well they will until they are made redundant), they have to or else they go to court.
No, the bulk of the money that has been blown involves institutional bank loans to each other, insurance companies, commercial developers, and financial speculators; most of the really hard core write offs are going to come from credit default swaps (apparently there is about 55 trllion dollars worth of those knocking around) and derivative products, which are all essentially worthless now, as are the assets they were leveraged on. Do you realize that the banks and financial markets had created markets out of packaged up debts that are valued at many, many multiples of the entire planets GDP, and those markets have all collapsed?
They created a system they didn't understand, its like a financial doomsday machine, and its still there tearing everything up. Its nuts, it makes no sense to have done this, (except when you realize that the people in charge of the companies and institutions that did this recieved short-term gains that were beyond the dreams of avarice). Now though, reality has kicked back in, and the money markets have realized that all this stuff was nonsense, and have promptly committed collective financial suicide.
This is the credit crunch and what its really about. These CDFs and Derivatives are the "toxic assets" you hear about, and they are what has collapsed the entire global money and credit supply. Much of this was bought by British Banks, even those that weren't involved all got involve in borrowing money on overnight credit markets and then lending it on long term to customers. Those money markets have died and there is no easily available money for the banks anymore, so they have to fund themselves out of their own capital. Much of their balance sheets are going to be written off now, and they will have to massively retract credit from everyone, including perfectly good customers and businesses; and to add insult to injury your government has now saddled you with all of these initial debts (as well as your own), while the banks carry on regardless.
This means that your economy has been allowed to grow on an unsustainable source of credit and money, institutions made billions out of it, and that credit has dried up, literally overnight, now everything is going to fall off a cliff, oh and just for good measure you, through the tax system, will be paying for the losses that the private banks and financial houses suffered because of their collective madness, not the banks themselves.
Yes, the system became a nonsense, but we to now do as we are told by the Banks, and allow our Governments to rescue them with our money (and our money for the next 40 years probably) because "banks can't fail" however, ordinary people can fail, and they are about to en-masse. So despite the fact that the banking system has totaled the economy, the actual individuals remain largely in place, as do the institutions, its just that most of their bad loans are going to be paid for by the tax payers, while those taxpayers are castigated for being stupid, gulllible, and greedy. Does this sound remotely equitable to you?
You really have no idea about what's coming do you?
I hate to tell you this, but a lot of your friends are going to lose their businesses, jobs, and homes, as are mine I guarantee you if we have this conversation in 12 months time you will not feel as secure as you obviously do right now. In fact you may find many people in Britain who are doing ok at present are going to actually go hungry, and become homeless or end up living in shelters, and losing everything because of what has happened. You may even end up not being able to pay for your military, the social welfare system or the NHS, certainly not without massive tax rises on those left in work. This is why George Osbourne is so worried about the amount of Public debt that is mounting up, he understands what the long-term implications for Britain may be, and he reads the Financial Times, not the Sun or the Mail.
Oscar I am not deliberatly trying to frighten you or be alarmist, but there is an economic disaster going on of the first order, worldwide, its only starting to really hit economies in Europe now, America has been first to be badly hit (and you may notice they are currently trying to borrow their way out of it); but be assured we will next and it will be worse on this side of Atlantic (particularly in Britain and Ireland), as this depression will be followed probably by a political crisis, and many countries may simply go bankrupt, collapse, and face mass unemployment, wiped out industries, and businesses, massive inflation (or deflation), poverty on scale we haven't seen since probably WW II, widespread social unrest, and possibly much worse.
This isn't hyperbole, this is what's going to happen, in fact its already happening.
Without boring you again but look at the example of Woolworths. Jobs were lost but at no fault to the government just sheer lunacy of the reckless borrowing from the company.
I may sound as hard as Thatcher when i say this:......Most people who buy a house, business or a home have a belief that there is never going to be bad times ahead and do not claculate those risks and be accountable for them. When you buy a house or business or take on a job...... where does it say that it is the governments duty to keep you in that job? Or bail out your company when you are losing your job because the bosses or shareholders made the wrong decisions? Or bail out your business because you borrowed too much on credit instead of re-investing profit back into the growth of your business? Or save your house because you thought your job was going to last for-ever and did no risk calculation?
The only way oout of this is when everyone realises they are accountable and it is not up to governments to wipe your backside for you because you made the wrong choices in life.
I know people who do not even have basic house contents insurence because they live in a world of 'It will never happen to me'.
Right, the stupid public get what they deserve, but for financial institutions its perfectly acceptable to take the tax money of all these same poor, stupid, ordinary saps (who are about to be made unemployed or go bankrupt, or be taxed to the hilt if they are lucky enough to remain in employment) and hand it over to them. The citizens can pay, pay, pay and be lectured to by economists about how its actually their own fault; while the banking corporations are essentially 100 percent bailed out to the tune of tens of billions of pounds, and get to keep their fancy job based on the fact that they are now "sorry" that they have driven the entire foundations of the economy onto the rocks with a business model that was entirely nuts???
What are you on about? Who do you think created an economy based on consumer spending, banks that gave out borrowed money like drugs in the playground, and a housing market where the average house was 7 times the average industrial wage? Was is Dazza looking for 10,000 for his souped Corsa? Or Michelle with her first home in Doncaster? Or was it the bosses of Barclays, HBOS, RBS, Citigroup, Lehman, and their cheerleaders in Governments right across the western world etc etc. Get a sense of perspective here, ordinary people don't get to decide how things work, they just pay for it.
Most of the bad loans of these banks that your going to be paying for for the rest of your life are not residential mortage loans, or personal loans, people are paying those loans, (well they will until they are made redundant), they have to or else they go to court.
No, the bulk of the money that has been blown involves institutional bank loans to each other, insurance companies, commercial developers, and financial speculators; most of the really hard core write offs are going to come from credit default swaps (apparently there is about 55 trllion dollars worth of those knocking around) and derivative products, which are all essentially worthless now, as are the assets they were leveraged on. Do you realize that the banks and financial markets had created markets out of packaged up debts that are valued at many, many multiples of the entire planets GDP, and those markets have all collapsed?
They created a system they didn't understand, its like a financial doomsday machine, and its still there tearing everything up. Its nuts, it makes no sense to have done this, (except when you realize that the people in charge of the companies and institutions that did this recieved short-term gains that were beyond the dreams of avarice). Now though, reality has kicked back in, and the money markets have realized that all this stuff was nonsense, and have promptly committed collective financial suicide.
This is the credit crunch and what its really about. These CDFs and Derivatives are the "toxic assets" you hear about, and they are what has collapsed the entire global money and credit supply. Much of this was bought by British Banks, even those that weren't involved all got involve in borrowing money on overnight credit markets and then lending it on long term to customers. Those money markets have died and there is no easily available money for the banks anymore, so they have to fund themselves out of their own capital. Much of their balance sheets are going to be written off now, and they will have to massively retract credit from everyone, including perfectly good customers and businesses; and to add insult to injury your government has now saddled you with all of these initial debts (as well as your own), while the banks carry on regardless.
This means that your economy has been allowed to grow on an unsustainable source of credit and money, institutions made billions out of it, and that credit has dried up, literally overnight, now everything is going to fall off a cliff, oh and just for good measure you, through the tax system, will be paying for the losses that the private banks and financial houses suffered because of their collective madness, not the banks themselves.
Yes, the system became a nonsense, but we to now do as we are told by the Banks, and allow our Governments to rescue them with our money (and our money for the next 40 years probably) because "banks can't fail" however, ordinary people can fail, and they are about to en-masse. So despite the fact that the banking system has totaled the economy, the actual individuals remain largely in place, as do the institutions, its just that most of their bad loans are going to be paid for by the tax payers, while those taxpayers are castigated for being stupid, gulllible, and greedy. Does this sound remotely equitable to you?
You really have no idea about what's coming do you?
I hate to tell you this, but a lot of your friends are going to lose their businesses, jobs, and homes, as are mine I guarantee you if we have this conversation in 12 months time you will not feel as secure as you obviously do right now. In fact you may find many people in Britain who are doing ok at present are going to actually go hungry, and become homeless or end up living in shelters, and losing everything because of what has happened. You may even end up not being able to pay for your military, the social welfare system or the NHS, certainly not without massive tax rises on those left in work. This is why George Osbourne is so worried about the amount of Public debt that is mounting up, he understands what the long-term implications for Britain may be, and he reads the Financial Times, not the Sun or the Mail.
Oscar I am not deliberatly trying to frighten you or be alarmist, but there is an economic disaster going on of the first order, worldwide, its only starting to really hit economies in Europe now, America has been first to be badly hit (and you may notice they are currently trying to borrow their way out of it); but be assured we will next and it will be worse on this side of Atlantic (particularly in Britain and Ireland), as this depression will be followed probably by a political crisis, and many countries may simply go bankrupt, collapse, and face mass unemployment, wiped out industries, and businesses, massive inflation (or deflation), poverty on scale we haven't seen since probably WW II, widespread social unrest, and possibly much worse.
This isn't hyperbole, this is what's going to happen, in fact its already happening.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The latest revelations on the banking crisis
Galbally;1135540 wrote: Right, the stupid public get what they deserve, but for financial institutions its perfectly acceptable to take the tax money of all these same poor, stupid, ordinary saps (who are about to be made unemployed or go bankrupt, or be taxed to the hilt if they are lucky enough to remain in employment) and hand it over to them. The citizens can pay, pay, pay and be lectured to by economists about how its actually their own fault; while the banking corporations are essentially 100 percent bailed out to the tune of tens of billions of pounds, and get to keep their fancy job based on the fact that they are now "sorry" that they have driven the entire foundations of the economy onto the rocks with a business model that was entirely nuts???
What are you on about? Who do you think created an economy based on consumer spending, banks that gave out borrowed money like drugs in the playground, and a housing market where the average house was 7 times the average industrial wage? Was is Dazza looking for 10,000 for his souped Corsa? Or Michelle with her first home in Doncaster? Or was it the bosses of Barclays, HBOS, RBS, Citigroup, Lehman, and their cheerleaders in Governments right across the western world etc etc. Get a sense of perspective here, ordinary people don't get to decide how things work, they just pay for it.
Most of the bad loans of these banks that your going to be paying for for the rest of your life are not residential mortage loans, or personal loans, people are paying those loans, (well they will until they are made redundant), they have to or else they go to court.
No, the bulk of the money that has been blown involves institutional bank loans to each other, insurance companies, commercial developers, and financial speculators; most of the really hard core write offs are going to come from credit default swaps (apparently there is about 55 trllion dollars worth of those knocking around) and derivative products, which are all essentially worthless now, as are the assets they were leveraged on.
These are the "toxic assets" you hear about, and they are what has collapsed the entire global money and credit supply. Much of this was bought by British Banks, even those that weren't involved all got involve in borrowing money on overnight credit markets and then lending it on long term to customers. Those money markets have died and there is no easily available money for the banks anymore, so they have to fund themselves out of their own capital. Much of their balance sheets are going to be written off now, and your government has now saddled you with all of these debt, while the banks carry on regardless. This means that your economy has been allowed to grow on an unsustainable source of credit, and that credit has dried up, literally overnight, now everything is going to fall off a cliff.
But we have to do as we are told by the Banks, and rescue them because "banks can't fail" however, ordinary people can fail, and they are about to en-masse. So despite the fact that the banking system has totaled the economy, the actual individuals remain largely in place, as do the institutions, its just that most of their bad loans are going to be paid for by the tax payers, while those taxpayers are castigated for being stupid, gulllible, and greedy. Does this sound remotely equitable to you?
You really have no idea about what's coming do you?
I hate to tell you this, but a lot of your friends are going to lose their businesses, jobs, and homes, as are mine I guarantee you if we have this conversation in 12 months time you will not feel as secure as you obviously do right now. In fact you may find many people in Britain who are doing ok at present are going to actually go hungry, and become homeless or end up living in shelters, and losing everything because of what has happened. You may even end up not being able to pay for your military, the social welfare system or the NHS, certainly not without massive tax rises on those left in work.
Oscar I am not deliberatly trying to frighten you or be alarmist, but there is an economic disaster going on of the first order, worldwide, its only starting to really hit economies in Europe now, America has been first to be badly hit (and you may notice they are currently trying to borrow their way out of it); but be assured we will next and it will be worse on this side of Atlantic (particularly in Britain and Ireland), as this depression will be followed probably by a political crisis, and many countries may simply go bankrupt, collapse, and face mass unemployment, wiped out industries, and businesses, massive inflation (or deflation), poverty on scale we haven't seen since probably WW II, widespread social unrest, and possibly much worse.
This isn't hyperbole, this is what's going to happen, in fact its already happening.
First of all..... how do you know i've got a nephew called Dazza and he has a supped up Corsa??
I read a lot more than i Post on here.(yes, including all those papers with no pretty pictures :rolleyes:) I am well aware of all of the aspects you have highlighted. Of course the banks are to blame..... I have never said that they were not. I was talking about Joe Bloggs being held accountable. Banks and other financial institutions do not run people's lives on the simplest of scale. They lend to greedy people on the buy now pay later policy. No bank put a gun to their heads and forced them to buy a house 7 times over their wage limit. The reason people buy a property far beyond their means.... is greed because most have the notion of selling it on at a massive profit in the inflated housing economy. When the housing markey falls into negative equity, they cry that it's the nasty bank and governments fault. Now, they are stuck with massive houses that they never needed in the first place and can't sell on...... well, tough.
Half of this country has no life insurence, house contents or even building or premises insurence yet they are the first to whinge when it goes tits up.
The government did not get their hands on my pension or my savings because i got advice. If people are so arrogant that they think the government owes them a life-style to which they have become accustomed, then they deserve all they get.
There is work out there. Asda have just announced 7,000 jobs for one example. But no, the guy who's shuffled bits of paper around a nice air conditioned office for years does not want to go statcking brussel sprouts does he? We have a neighbour who has lost his job as a car mechanic. There were two jobs going for grease monkeys in local garages. He wouldn't even go for them because they were not 'Mechanic's jobs'. Rather than earn less, he turned them down to claim benifit because it's that nasty government again.
What world does anyone live in where they think they should not pay tax?
Frankly, I'd like to see 'Darling' announce his budget now and raise taxes. It's the only way we will pay for this mess.
What are you on about? Who do you think created an economy based on consumer spending, banks that gave out borrowed money like drugs in the playground, and a housing market where the average house was 7 times the average industrial wage? Was is Dazza looking for 10,000 for his souped Corsa? Or Michelle with her first home in Doncaster? Or was it the bosses of Barclays, HBOS, RBS, Citigroup, Lehman, and their cheerleaders in Governments right across the western world etc etc. Get a sense of perspective here, ordinary people don't get to decide how things work, they just pay for it.
Most of the bad loans of these banks that your going to be paying for for the rest of your life are not residential mortage loans, or personal loans, people are paying those loans, (well they will until they are made redundant), they have to or else they go to court.
No, the bulk of the money that has been blown involves institutional bank loans to each other, insurance companies, commercial developers, and financial speculators; most of the really hard core write offs are going to come from credit default swaps (apparently there is about 55 trllion dollars worth of those knocking around) and derivative products, which are all essentially worthless now, as are the assets they were leveraged on.
These are the "toxic assets" you hear about, and they are what has collapsed the entire global money and credit supply. Much of this was bought by British Banks, even those that weren't involved all got involve in borrowing money on overnight credit markets and then lending it on long term to customers. Those money markets have died and there is no easily available money for the banks anymore, so they have to fund themselves out of their own capital. Much of their balance sheets are going to be written off now, and your government has now saddled you with all of these debt, while the banks carry on regardless. This means that your economy has been allowed to grow on an unsustainable source of credit, and that credit has dried up, literally overnight, now everything is going to fall off a cliff.
But we have to do as we are told by the Banks, and rescue them because "banks can't fail" however, ordinary people can fail, and they are about to en-masse. So despite the fact that the banking system has totaled the economy, the actual individuals remain largely in place, as do the institutions, its just that most of their bad loans are going to be paid for by the tax payers, while those taxpayers are castigated for being stupid, gulllible, and greedy. Does this sound remotely equitable to you?
You really have no idea about what's coming do you?
I hate to tell you this, but a lot of your friends are going to lose their businesses, jobs, and homes, as are mine I guarantee you if we have this conversation in 12 months time you will not feel as secure as you obviously do right now. In fact you may find many people in Britain who are doing ok at present are going to actually go hungry, and become homeless or end up living in shelters, and losing everything because of what has happened. You may even end up not being able to pay for your military, the social welfare system or the NHS, certainly not without massive tax rises on those left in work.
Oscar I am not deliberatly trying to frighten you or be alarmist, but there is an economic disaster going on of the first order, worldwide, its only starting to really hit economies in Europe now, America has been first to be badly hit (and you may notice they are currently trying to borrow their way out of it); but be assured we will next and it will be worse on this side of Atlantic (particularly in Britain and Ireland), as this depression will be followed probably by a political crisis, and many countries may simply go bankrupt, collapse, and face mass unemployment, wiped out industries, and businesses, massive inflation (or deflation), poverty on scale we haven't seen since probably WW II, widespread social unrest, and possibly much worse.
This isn't hyperbole, this is what's going to happen, in fact its already happening.
First of all..... how do you know i've got a nephew called Dazza and he has a supped up Corsa??
I read a lot more than i Post on here.(yes, including all those papers with no pretty pictures :rolleyes:) I am well aware of all of the aspects you have highlighted. Of course the banks are to blame..... I have never said that they were not. I was talking about Joe Bloggs being held accountable. Banks and other financial institutions do not run people's lives on the simplest of scale. They lend to greedy people on the buy now pay later policy. No bank put a gun to their heads and forced them to buy a house 7 times over their wage limit. The reason people buy a property far beyond their means.... is greed because most have the notion of selling it on at a massive profit in the inflated housing economy. When the housing markey falls into negative equity, they cry that it's the nasty bank and governments fault. Now, they are stuck with massive houses that they never needed in the first place and can't sell on...... well, tough.
Half of this country has no life insurence, house contents or even building or premises insurence yet they are the first to whinge when it goes tits up.
The government did not get their hands on my pension or my savings because i got advice. If people are so arrogant that they think the government owes them a life-style to which they have become accustomed, then they deserve all they get.
There is work out there. Asda have just announced 7,000 jobs for one example. But no, the guy who's shuffled bits of paper around a nice air conditioned office for years does not want to go statcking brussel sprouts does he? We have a neighbour who has lost his job as a car mechanic. There were two jobs going for grease monkeys in local garages. He wouldn't even go for them because they were not 'Mechanic's jobs'. Rather than earn less, he turned them down to claim benifit because it's that nasty government again.
What world does anyone live in where they think they should not pay tax?
Frankly, I'd like to see 'Darling' announce his budget now and raise taxes. It's the only way we will pay for this mess.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The latest revelations on the banking crisis
oscar;1135551 wrote: First of all..... how do you know i've got a nephew called Dazza and he has a supped up Corsa??
I read a lot more than i Post on here.(yes, including all those papers with no pretty pictures :rolleyes:) I am well aware of all of the aspects you have highlighted. Of course the banks are to blame..... I have never said that they were not. I was talking about Joe Bloggs being held accountable. Banks and other financial institutions do not run people's lives on the simplest of scale. They lend to greedy people on the buy now pay later policy. No bank put a gun to their heads and forced them to buy a house 7 times over their wage limit. The reason people buy a property far beyond their means.... is greed because most have the notion of selling it on at a massive profit in the inflated housing economy. When the housing markey falls into negative equity, they cry that it's the nasty bank and governments fault. Now, they are stuck with massive houses that they never needed in the first place and can't sell on...... well, tough.
Half of this country has no life insurence, house contents or even building or premises insurence yet they are the first to whinge when it goes tits up.
The government did not get their hands on my pension or my savings because i got advice. If people are so arrogant that they think the government owes them a life-style to which they have become accustomed, then they deserve all they get.
There is work out there. Asda have just announced 7,000 jobs for one example. But no, the guy who's shuffled bits of paper around a nice air conditioned office for years does not want to go statcking brussel sprouts does he? We have a neighbour who has lost his job as a car mechanic. There were two jobs going for grease monkeys in local garages. He wouldn't even go for them because they were not 'Mechanic's jobs'. Rather than earn less, he turned them down to claim benifit because it's that nasty government again.
What world does anyone live in where they think they should not pay tax?
Frankly, I'd like to see 'Darling' announce his budget now and raise taxes. It's the only way we will pay for this mess.
I do agree in general about the consumer society, its all gone horribly wrong because it was wrong to start with as an idea, and people's sense of entitlement to things that they haven't earned has gone bananas completely. But that's not everyone, and also most people just want to get by and get on with their lives, not necessarily run up so much debt on housing, but what are you supposed to do if you want to get married and settle down? Live in a box? The market sets the price, not you, and if you want a house you have to pay for it. Unless you want to go on a council list; and not a lot of people want to live on old council sink estates anymore.
So out of the collapse of the old industries and the last period of mass unemployment, we got the new dream of service jobs, construction booms, financial wizardry, endless superstores, cars for everyone in the family, debit cards, a TV in every room, credit cards, 3 holidays a year, equity releases, overdrafts, 100 percent mortgages and all the rest of it, entire sections of the economy are now entirely based on people buying houses and then selling them as soon as possible (as if they were assets and not homes), while another part of the economy is based on building them, while yet another is based on putting furniture in them, and changing it every 2 years.
It turns out that the huge increases in price (several hundred percent in a decade), weren't because the country was more prosperous or we were more productive, but because the banks could get more and more money from abroad, and then lend more and more money to us, into the market, and this allowed this win-win property speculation game to get to ridiculous levels, now its over and we are broke and the houses will be worth a fraction of what was paid for them, while the economy based on all that disappears like so much sand. Even still, people dream of the "property market pick up" as if this was the news of salvation, as if somehow, this is all just a minor problem, and soon we will be all out buying things like there is no tomorrow again. The truth is, its tomorrow, and the party is officially over, anyone who says anything different is lying.
I really wish we hadn't done this, its one of the reasons I got out of Dublin years ago as I became uncomfortable with the way things were going in the city and the whole Celtic Tiger "buy, buy, buy" mentality, and its also why I decided to forget about the "property ladder" and just rented in a nice place in the country near to where I work. So like you, I didn't get in over my head, or in fact buy any house, because at my age, buying a house in Ireland means borrowing hundreds of thousands of Euros and I knew something was not right with the way the things was. But it gives me no comfort to watch it come crashing down, as its taking lots of ordinary hard-working people with it over here, some of them are my friends, with young children, its devastating.
But, we are where we are; these things have all been brewing up over decades, unfortunately the music just stopped, the lights have gone up, and we are all at a bit of a loss about what to do about it.
The welfare state was designed to protect the poorest people at a time of real economic hardship, unfortunately I agree it became a lifestyle for many people for many reasons; the problem now is that you have a situation where we may not be able to pay for the welfare system or the pension system, and that's serious, as your about to have large numbers of people being put on the dole at the same time the money dries up.
At the moment, all I, and anyone else can do, is watch this unfold, and hope that my worst fears are not realized. I do hope that once we get through this time, we get back to more basic, simple, healthy living, where people regain a sense of proportion and responsibility, but I am under no illusion that's going to be an easy or painless process. Quite the opposite. Also, I don't think many people over here are going to forget that the government and the banks were encouraging all this, and dismissing the nay-sayers despite the many warnings that were coming from obviously wiser heads.
I read a lot more than i Post on here.(yes, including all those papers with no pretty pictures :rolleyes:) I am well aware of all of the aspects you have highlighted. Of course the banks are to blame..... I have never said that they were not. I was talking about Joe Bloggs being held accountable. Banks and other financial institutions do not run people's lives on the simplest of scale. They lend to greedy people on the buy now pay later policy. No bank put a gun to their heads and forced them to buy a house 7 times over their wage limit. The reason people buy a property far beyond their means.... is greed because most have the notion of selling it on at a massive profit in the inflated housing economy. When the housing markey falls into negative equity, they cry that it's the nasty bank and governments fault. Now, they are stuck with massive houses that they never needed in the first place and can't sell on...... well, tough.
Half of this country has no life insurence, house contents or even building or premises insurence yet they are the first to whinge when it goes tits up.
The government did not get their hands on my pension or my savings because i got advice. If people are so arrogant that they think the government owes them a life-style to which they have become accustomed, then they deserve all they get.
There is work out there. Asda have just announced 7,000 jobs for one example. But no, the guy who's shuffled bits of paper around a nice air conditioned office for years does not want to go statcking brussel sprouts does he? We have a neighbour who has lost his job as a car mechanic. There were two jobs going for grease monkeys in local garages. He wouldn't even go for them because they were not 'Mechanic's jobs'. Rather than earn less, he turned them down to claim benifit because it's that nasty government again.
What world does anyone live in where they think they should not pay tax?
Frankly, I'd like to see 'Darling' announce his budget now and raise taxes. It's the only way we will pay for this mess.
I do agree in general about the consumer society, its all gone horribly wrong because it was wrong to start with as an idea, and people's sense of entitlement to things that they haven't earned has gone bananas completely. But that's not everyone, and also most people just want to get by and get on with their lives, not necessarily run up so much debt on housing, but what are you supposed to do if you want to get married and settle down? Live in a box? The market sets the price, not you, and if you want a house you have to pay for it. Unless you want to go on a council list; and not a lot of people want to live on old council sink estates anymore.
So out of the collapse of the old industries and the last period of mass unemployment, we got the new dream of service jobs, construction booms, financial wizardry, endless superstores, cars for everyone in the family, debit cards, a TV in every room, credit cards, 3 holidays a year, equity releases, overdrafts, 100 percent mortgages and all the rest of it, entire sections of the economy are now entirely based on people buying houses and then selling them as soon as possible (as if they were assets and not homes), while another part of the economy is based on building them, while yet another is based on putting furniture in them, and changing it every 2 years.
It turns out that the huge increases in price (several hundred percent in a decade), weren't because the country was more prosperous or we were more productive, but because the banks could get more and more money from abroad, and then lend more and more money to us, into the market, and this allowed this win-win property speculation game to get to ridiculous levels, now its over and we are broke and the houses will be worth a fraction of what was paid for them, while the economy based on all that disappears like so much sand. Even still, people dream of the "property market pick up" as if this was the news of salvation, as if somehow, this is all just a minor problem, and soon we will be all out buying things like there is no tomorrow again. The truth is, its tomorrow, and the party is officially over, anyone who says anything different is lying.
I really wish we hadn't done this, its one of the reasons I got out of Dublin years ago as I became uncomfortable with the way things were going in the city and the whole Celtic Tiger "buy, buy, buy" mentality, and its also why I decided to forget about the "property ladder" and just rented in a nice place in the country near to where I work. So like you, I didn't get in over my head, or in fact buy any house, because at my age, buying a house in Ireland means borrowing hundreds of thousands of Euros and I knew something was not right with the way the things was. But it gives me no comfort to watch it come crashing down, as its taking lots of ordinary hard-working people with it over here, some of them are my friends, with young children, its devastating.
But, we are where we are; these things have all been brewing up over decades, unfortunately the music just stopped, the lights have gone up, and we are all at a bit of a loss about what to do about it.
The welfare state was designed to protect the poorest people at a time of real economic hardship, unfortunately I agree it became a lifestyle for many people for many reasons; the problem now is that you have a situation where we may not be able to pay for the welfare system or the pension system, and that's serious, as your about to have large numbers of people being put on the dole at the same time the money dries up.
At the moment, all I, and anyone else can do, is watch this unfold, and hope that my worst fears are not realized. I do hope that once we get through this time, we get back to more basic, simple, healthy living, where people regain a sense of proportion and responsibility, but I am under no illusion that's going to be an easy or painless process. Quite the opposite. Also, I don't think many people over here are going to forget that the government and the banks were encouraging all this, and dismissing the nay-sayers despite the many warnings that were coming from obviously wiser heads.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The latest revelations on the banking crisis
Galbally;1135566 wrote: I do agree in general about the consumer society, its all gone horribly wrong because it was wrong to start with as an idea, and people's sense of entitlement to things that they haven't earned has gone bananas completely. But that's not everyone, and also most people just want to get by and get on with their lives, not necessarily run up so much debt on housing, but what are you supposed to do if you want to get married and settle down? Live in a box? The market sets the price, not you, and if you want a house you have to pay for it. Unless you want to go on a council list; and not a lot of people want to live on old council sink estates anymore.
So out of the collapse of the old industries and the last period of mass unemployment, we got the new dream of service jobs, construction booms, financial wizardry, endless superstores, cars for everyone in the family, debit cards, a TV in every room, credit cards, 3 holidays a year, equity releases, overdrafts, 100 percent mortgages and all the rest of it, entire sections of the economy are now entirely based on people buying houses and then selling them as soon as possible (as if they were assets and not homes), while another part of the economy is based on building them, while yet another is based on putting furniture in them, and changing it every 2 years.
It turns out that the huge increases in price (several hundred percent in a decade), weren't because the country was more prosperous or we were more productive, but because the banks could get more and more money from abroad, and then lend more and more money to us, into the market, and this allowed this win-win property speculation game to get to ridiculous levels, now its over and we are broke and the houses will be worth a fraction of what was paid for them, while the economy based on all that disappears like so much sand. Even still, people dream of the "property market pick up" as if this was the news of salvation, as if somehow, this is all just a minor problem, and soon we will be all out buying things like there is no tomorrow again. The truth is, its tomorrow, and the party is officially over, anyone who says anything different is lying.
I really wish we hadn't done this, its one of the reasons I got out of Dublin years ago as I became uncomfortable with the way things were going in the city and the whole Celtic Tiger "buy, buy, buy" mentality, and its also why I decided to forget about the "property ladder" and just rented in a nice place in the country near to where I work. So like you, I didn't get in over my head, or in fact buy any house, because at my age, buying a house in Ireland means borrowing hundreds of thousands of Euros and I knew something was not right with the way the things was. But it gives me no comfort to watch it come crashing down, as its taking lots of ordinary hard-working people with it over here, some of them are my friends, with young children, its devastating.
But, we are where we are; these things have all been brewing up over decades, unfortunately the music just stopped, the lights have gone up, and we are all at a bit of a loss about what to do about it.
The welfare state was designed to protect the poorest people at a time of real economic hardship, unfortunately I agree it became a lifestyle for many people for many reasons; the problem now is that you have a situation where we may not be able to pay for the welfare system or the pension system, and that's serious, as your about to have large numbers of people being put on the dole at the same time the money dries up.
At the moment, all I, and anyone else can do, is watch this unfold, and hope that my worst fears are not realized. I do hope that once we get through this time, we get back to more basic, simple, healthy living, where people regain a sense of proportion and responsibility, but I am under no illusion that's going to be an easy or painless process. Quite the opposite. Also, I don't think many people over here are going to forget that the government and the banks were encouraging all this, and dismissing the nay-sayers despite the many warnings that were coming from obviously wiser heads.
That is the line that stands out the most to me and the country can not heal until ordinary folk understand proportion and responsibility. Unfortunately, while they learn this lesson, they will continue to blame anything or anybody but themselves.
We have a 'middle' generation that has grown up with absolutely no idea of responsibility or commitment and are unable to budget a household or manage money. I know young girls who are up to the max on store cards.
12 years ago, we had a joint income of £1800 a week and my god, we paid our share of tax as well. I became seriously ill and as i recovered my husband became ill. we had a three bedroomed house and even a cleaner because i was at work all hours. We knew with the illness that we had to do something so we sold up and got a small bungalow. With what we are facing as a country, it was the best move we ever made. We also saved our money, did not buy on credit and did not buy unless we absolutely needed it. That's why I'm in a comfortable position now. That's not being smug, it's about realising what is happening around you and doing the right thing. Today's generation are recless in that thry will spank the plastic to the max and when the job goes, whinge and cry all the way to the bancrupcy court.
I do believe we are in for some serious cut backs in welfare but as i said, there is jobs out there. People have had life their own way for far too long. An example of this is my husbands friend who has the take-aways. he can not get drivers for love nor money. As soon as any applicant hears the unsociable hours, they don't want to know. He's been advertising for months for some-one to put leaflets out and can't get anyone.
The government is talking about forcing mothers back to work but honestly, half of them are sink estate 'Waynetta's' who have no social skills what so ever and are un-employable. The only answer there is to train them costing the government more than the tax they will get back off them.
So out of the collapse of the old industries and the last period of mass unemployment, we got the new dream of service jobs, construction booms, financial wizardry, endless superstores, cars for everyone in the family, debit cards, a TV in every room, credit cards, 3 holidays a year, equity releases, overdrafts, 100 percent mortgages and all the rest of it, entire sections of the economy are now entirely based on people buying houses and then selling them as soon as possible (as if they were assets and not homes), while another part of the economy is based on building them, while yet another is based on putting furniture in them, and changing it every 2 years.
It turns out that the huge increases in price (several hundred percent in a decade), weren't because the country was more prosperous or we were more productive, but because the banks could get more and more money from abroad, and then lend more and more money to us, into the market, and this allowed this win-win property speculation game to get to ridiculous levels, now its over and we are broke and the houses will be worth a fraction of what was paid for them, while the economy based on all that disappears like so much sand. Even still, people dream of the "property market pick up" as if this was the news of salvation, as if somehow, this is all just a minor problem, and soon we will be all out buying things like there is no tomorrow again. The truth is, its tomorrow, and the party is officially over, anyone who says anything different is lying.
I really wish we hadn't done this, its one of the reasons I got out of Dublin years ago as I became uncomfortable with the way things were going in the city and the whole Celtic Tiger "buy, buy, buy" mentality, and its also why I decided to forget about the "property ladder" and just rented in a nice place in the country near to where I work. So like you, I didn't get in over my head, or in fact buy any house, because at my age, buying a house in Ireland means borrowing hundreds of thousands of Euros and I knew something was not right with the way the things was. But it gives me no comfort to watch it come crashing down, as its taking lots of ordinary hard-working people with it over here, some of them are my friends, with young children, its devastating.
But, we are where we are; these things have all been brewing up over decades, unfortunately the music just stopped, the lights have gone up, and we are all at a bit of a loss about what to do about it.
The welfare state was designed to protect the poorest people at a time of real economic hardship, unfortunately I agree it became a lifestyle for many people for many reasons; the problem now is that you have a situation where we may not be able to pay for the welfare system or the pension system, and that's serious, as your about to have large numbers of people being put on the dole at the same time the money dries up.
At the moment, all I, and anyone else can do, is watch this unfold, and hope that my worst fears are not realized. I do hope that once we get through this time, we get back to more basic, simple, healthy living, where people regain a sense of proportion and responsibility, but I am under no illusion that's going to be an easy or painless process. Quite the opposite. Also, I don't think many people over here are going to forget that the government and the banks were encouraging all this, and dismissing the nay-sayers despite the many warnings that were coming from obviously wiser heads.
That is the line that stands out the most to me and the country can not heal until ordinary folk understand proportion and responsibility. Unfortunately, while they learn this lesson, they will continue to blame anything or anybody but themselves.
We have a 'middle' generation that has grown up with absolutely no idea of responsibility or commitment and are unable to budget a household or manage money. I know young girls who are up to the max on store cards.
12 years ago, we had a joint income of £1800 a week and my god, we paid our share of tax as well. I became seriously ill and as i recovered my husband became ill. we had a three bedroomed house and even a cleaner because i was at work all hours. We knew with the illness that we had to do something so we sold up and got a small bungalow. With what we are facing as a country, it was the best move we ever made. We also saved our money, did not buy on credit and did not buy unless we absolutely needed it. That's why I'm in a comfortable position now. That's not being smug, it's about realising what is happening around you and doing the right thing. Today's generation are recless in that thry will spank the plastic to the max and when the job goes, whinge and cry all the way to the bancrupcy court.
I do believe we are in for some serious cut backs in welfare but as i said, there is jobs out there. People have had life their own way for far too long. An example of this is my husbands friend who has the take-aways. he can not get drivers for love nor money. As soon as any applicant hears the unsociable hours, they don't want to know. He's been advertising for months for some-one to put leaflets out and can't get anyone.
The government is talking about forcing mothers back to work but honestly, half of them are sink estate 'Waynetta's' who have no social skills what so ever and are un-employable. The only answer there is to train them costing the government more than the tax they will get back off them.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The latest revelations on the banking crisis
In the matter of bonuses within those banks which have taken public bailout finance I have no problem with a capped payment - it is, after all, effectively a component of salary among the lower paid workers who have put in perfectly legitimate hard work. Capping the bonuses at, say, two thousand Pounds or Euros would be well within a reasonable compromise. Any member of the management who had the temerity to touch it wouldn't benefit significantly but would face derisive catcalls.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The latest revelations on the banking crisis
spot;1135586 wrote: In the matter of bonuses within those banks which have taken public bailout finance I have no problem with a capped payment - it is, after all, effectively a component of salary among the lower paid workers who have put in perfectly legitimate hard work. Capping the bonuses at, say, two thousand Pounds or Euros would be well within a reasonable compromise. Any member of the management who had the temerity to touch it wouldn't benefit significantly but would face derisive catcalls.
I see the Tory's are in the tabloids today proposing a £2000 bonus capped payment for bank chiefs. However, how would this work in say my former job where bonus was paid on sales? The more you sold, the more bonus you were paid.
I see the Tory's are in the tabloids today proposing a £2000 bonus capped payment for bank chiefs. However, how would this work in say my former job where bonus was paid on sales? The more you sold, the more bonus you were paid.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The latest revelations on the banking crisis
oscar;1135587 wrote: I see the Tory's are in the tabloids today proposing a £2000 bonus capped payment for bank chiefs. However, how would this work in say my former job where bonus was paid on sales? The more you sold, the more bonus you were paid.
I'm more interested in the bank staff on, say, £17,000 a year. The missing bonus would hurt them and they legitimately earned it.
I'm more interested in the bank staff on, say, £17,000 a year. The missing bonus would hurt them and they legitimately earned it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The latest revelations on the banking crisis
I think on the renumeration idea, the Tories are probably right. It would be wrong to take away the bonuses of the people at the counters, they need that money, and the bonus system gives them an incentive to earn it.
However, for the higher up people, their salaries have lost all sense of equity and proportion.
They simply do not deserve their salaries, let alone their bonuses, in fact for many individuals, their earnings over the last few years should probably be clawed back if its possible, and some of them should be in jail.
The same goes for people right across the top of many industries, Football and the media spring to mind.
When the manager of a mid-table British Premier League Club earns ten times the salary of the US president, you can sure something has gone out of proportion to the job people are doing; but thats the mad nature of modern capitalism and its inability to judge the value of things properly.
However, for the higher up people, their salaries have lost all sense of equity and proportion.
They simply do not deserve their salaries, let alone their bonuses, in fact for many individuals, their earnings over the last few years should probably be clawed back if its possible, and some of them should be in jail.
The same goes for people right across the top of many industries, Football and the media spring to mind.
When the manager of a mid-table British Premier League Club earns ten times the salary of the US president, you can sure something has gone out of proportion to the job people are doing; but thats the mad nature of modern capitalism and its inability to judge the value of things properly.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
The latest revelations on the banking crisis
Just as an additional little nugget from these amusing, alarming times.
Japan's economy has shrunk by its greatest amount since 1974, while the Japanese finance minister gave a bizarre press interview at the G7 conference in Rome. I mean he says he wasn't drunk, but I reckon he was after having a few stiff ones round the back. I think he must have been hanging our with the Russians, I heard they sneaked some Vodka in. :yh_rotfl
Japan's economy has shrunk by its greatest amount since 1974, while the Japanese finance minister gave a bizarre press interview at the G7 conference in Rome. I mean he says he wasn't drunk, but I reckon he was after having a few stiff ones round the back. I think he must have been hanging our with the Russians, I heard they sneaked some Vodka in. :yh_rotfl
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.