Ok, there are three things happening in the world right now that worry me. They'd worry me individually, but put them together and it's a recipe for Armageddon.
1) Climate change. Sorry folks, it's happening and it is very likely there is a very significant human input to the process of climate change. Whether this leads to a rise in global temperature (my personal suspicion) of the next Ice Age is in many ways irrelevant - either is a disaster for the Human species, not to mention all other species which are going extinct currently at such a rate some scientists are saying we are in the middle of another mass extinction.
From just the human perspective, the effects of climate change will be horrendous: Let's assume just for this example that the climate warms by a couple of degrees. Imagine the country of Bangladesh, which is basically a large river delta at sea level. Global warming means sa level rise. A sea level rise means the Bangladeshis (and people in many other countries too) migrate. This causes massive death and social unrest and contributes to:
2) Religious Fundamentalism. In times of danger and uncertainty people are more prone to seek for certainties in religion. The Middle East has been a region of uncertainty and danger for many generations. Whether Iran wants to get the Atomic Bomb in order to trigger Armageddon - literally - I don't know. But I do know a fair few people who DO believe that. Add in the desperation of starving millions as a result of global warming and you have a situation where pushing the button to launch the missile because God told you to do it seems increasingly likely. One thing needed in huge quantities to deal with both these situations is money a a sound financial structure, which leads me on to:
3) The collapse of the Banking system. Just at the time when we should be putting in maximum effort to sorting out (1) and (2) we can do virtually NOTHING without the money to pay for it (WHATEVER "it" is), and there is a significant chance that the rescue plans going on at the moment are just putting sticking plaster on a gaping wound and won't work.
Conclusion: We're ****ed.
This was a very quick summary of my thinking on these issues. Lord knows I hope I'm just being morbid because it's February and I need the Spring, but absolutely seriously I think things look really bad just now.
Please convince me I'm wrong.
Er, I think we're in trouble.
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Er, I think we're in trouble.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Clodhopper;1133778 wrote: Ok, there are three things happening in the world right now that worry me. They'd worry me individually, but put them together and it's a recipe for Armageddon.
1) Climate change. Sorry folks, it's happening and it is very likely there is a very significant human input to the process of climate change. Whether this leads to a rise in global temperature (my personal suspicion) of the next Ice Age is in many ways irrelevant - either is a disaster for the Human species, not to mention all other species which are going extinct currently at such a rate some scientists are saying we are in the middle of another mass extinction.
From just the human perspective, the effects of climate change will be horrendous: Let's assume just for this example that the climate warms by a couple of degrees. Imagine the country of Bangladesh, which is basically a large river delta at sea level. Global warming means sa level rise. A sea level rise means the Bangladeshis (and people in many other countries too) migrate. This causes massive death and social unrest and contributes to:
2) Religious Fundamentalism. In times of danger and uncertainty people are more prone to seek for certainties in religion. The Middle East has been a region of uncertainty and danger for many generations. Whether Iran wants to get the Atomic Bomb in order to trigger Armageddon - literally - I don't know. But I do know a fair few people who DO believe that. Add in the desperation of starving millions as a result of global warming and you have a situation where pushing the button to launch the missile because God told you to do it seems increasingly likely. One thing needed in huge quantities to deal with both these situations is money a a sound financial structure, which leads me on to:
3) The collapse of the Banking system. Just at the time when we should be putting in maximum effort to sorting out (1) and (2) we can do virtually NOTHING without the money to pay for it (WHATEVER "it" is), and there is a significant chance that the rescue plans going on at the moment are just putting sticking plaster on a gaping wound and won't work.
Conclusion: We're ****ed.
This was a very quick summary of my thinking on these issues. Lord knows I hope I'm just being morbid because it's February and I need the Spring, but absolutely seriously I think things look really bad just now.
Please convince me I'm wrong.
I would but I'm not sure you are
1) Climate change. Sorry folks, it's happening and it is very likely there is a very significant human input to the process of climate change. Whether this leads to a rise in global temperature (my personal suspicion) of the next Ice Age is in many ways irrelevant - either is a disaster for the Human species, not to mention all other species which are going extinct currently at such a rate some scientists are saying we are in the middle of another mass extinction.
From just the human perspective, the effects of climate change will be horrendous: Let's assume just for this example that the climate warms by a couple of degrees. Imagine the country of Bangladesh, which is basically a large river delta at sea level. Global warming means sa level rise. A sea level rise means the Bangladeshis (and people in many other countries too) migrate. This causes massive death and social unrest and contributes to:
2) Religious Fundamentalism. In times of danger and uncertainty people are more prone to seek for certainties in religion. The Middle East has been a region of uncertainty and danger for many generations. Whether Iran wants to get the Atomic Bomb in order to trigger Armageddon - literally - I don't know. But I do know a fair few people who DO believe that. Add in the desperation of starving millions as a result of global warming and you have a situation where pushing the button to launch the missile because God told you to do it seems increasingly likely. One thing needed in huge quantities to deal with both these situations is money a a sound financial structure, which leads me on to:
3) The collapse of the Banking system. Just at the time when we should be putting in maximum effort to sorting out (1) and (2) we can do virtually NOTHING without the money to pay for it (WHATEVER "it" is), and there is a significant chance that the rescue plans going on at the moment are just putting sticking plaster on a gaping wound and won't work.
Conclusion: We're ****ed.
This was a very quick summary of my thinking on these issues. Lord knows I hope I'm just being morbid because it's February and I need the Spring, but absolutely seriously I think things look really bad just now.
Please convince me I'm wrong.
I would but I'm not sure you are
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Clodhopper
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- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Gilly, this post is popping up everywhere. What's wrong?
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Clodhopper;1133829 wrote: Gilly, this post is popping up everywhere. What's wrong?
I have noticed Gill's post come up on a lot of threads even the political one's. If she posts a new thread on what has happened, I'm sure there are many on here who can help her and will be happy to do so.
Going off on a tangent on a political or religeous thread is not the way as people will ignore it.
Gill..... why don't you post a new thread as i'd love to help if i could?
I have noticed Gill's post come up on a lot of threads even the political one's. If she posts a new thread on what has happened, I'm sure there are many on here who can help her and will be happy to do so.
Going off on a tangent on a political or religeous thread is not the way as people will ignore it. Gill..... why don't you post a new thread as i'd love to help if i could?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Well I am aware that we are somewhat overloaded with an awful lot of very very serious doom and gloom right now, so I want to try and be positive and practical.
In short I agree with you that we now face problems on a scale that almost seem overwhelming, but over the long perspective of history, there has never been a safe time, only periods of peace between war. Luckily for most of us we have lived in an age of peace and plenty for many years. So long in fact that very few of us now know a world any different. That I am afraid is all going to change from here on in.
Thats obviously frightening and depressing, especially when we are not sure about what exactly is coming, only that its going to be bad, thats never a good feeling. But from an individual perspective, your not getting out of here alive anyway, none of us are, there is nothing you can do, say or buy that changes that fundamental truth, so all you can really do is decide how you want to live for the period you are here, and do your damn best to make that happen.
Nothing is inevitable, and you will usually find that people are at their best when the chips are really down. At the moment we are still running around trying to get our heads around the fact that the era of easy living, and irresponsibility are really coming to an end, and that changes are coming that will challenge fundamentally who we are and what we believe.
Its my view that everything is still to play for, we are not done for by any means, we are going through a period now where a lot our previous notions and preconceptions are falling down around us, its not nice; but our core beliefs remain, and perhaps the things that are truly important are starting to come into focus again.
I truly believe that for a long time the way we have been living has been wrong and unhealthy, and that the changes that are coming can bring as much good as bad, and if it helps us to rediscover what is important in life once more, and that we have to fight and work hard to have those things and be able to pass them onto our kids, then that can only be a good thing.
So cheer up, we're not done for yet. :-6
In short I agree with you that we now face problems on a scale that almost seem overwhelming, but over the long perspective of history, there has never been a safe time, only periods of peace between war. Luckily for most of us we have lived in an age of peace and plenty for many years. So long in fact that very few of us now know a world any different. That I am afraid is all going to change from here on in.
Thats obviously frightening and depressing, especially when we are not sure about what exactly is coming, only that its going to be bad, thats never a good feeling. But from an individual perspective, your not getting out of here alive anyway, none of us are, there is nothing you can do, say or buy that changes that fundamental truth, so all you can really do is decide how you want to live for the period you are here, and do your damn best to make that happen.
Nothing is inevitable, and you will usually find that people are at their best when the chips are really down. At the moment we are still running around trying to get our heads around the fact that the era of easy living, and irresponsibility are really coming to an end, and that changes are coming that will challenge fundamentally who we are and what we believe.
Its my view that everything is still to play for, we are not done for by any means, we are going through a period now where a lot our previous notions and preconceptions are falling down around us, its not nice; but our core beliefs remain, and perhaps the things that are truly important are starting to come into focus again.
I truly believe that for a long time the way we have been living has been wrong and unhealthy, and that the changes that are coming can bring as much good as bad, and if it helps us to rediscover what is important in life once more, and that we have to fight and work hard to have those things and be able to pass them onto our kids, then that can only be a good thing.
So cheer up, we're not done for yet. :-6
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Er, I think we're in trouble.
In short, we have been sleepwalking into disaster for years now.
Mercifully, but brutally, we just woke up and realized how close we are to the edge of the cliff.
Its time to change everything once more.
Mercifully, but brutally, we just woke up and realized how close we are to the edge of the cliff.
Its time to change everything once more.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
QUINNSCOMMENTARY
- Posts: 901
- Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:56 pm
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Clodhopper;1133778 wrote: Ok, there are three things happening in the world right now that worry me. They'd worry me individually, but put them together and it's a recipe for Armageddon.
1) Climate change. Sorry folks, it's happening and it is very likely there is a very significant human input to the process of climate change. Whether this leads to a rise in global temperature (my personal suspicion) of the next Ice Age is in many ways irrelevant - either is a disaster for the Human species, not to mention all other species which are going extinct currently at such a rate some scientists are saying we are in the middle of another mass extinction.
From just the human perspective, the effects of climate change will be horrendous: Let's assume just for this example that the climate warms by a couple of degrees. Imagine the country of Bangladesh, which is basically a large river delta at sea level. Global warming means sa level rise. A sea level rise means the Bangladeshis (and people in many other countries too) migrate. This causes massive death and social unrest and contributes to:
2) Religious Fundamentalism. In times of danger and uncertainty people are more prone to seek for certainties in religion. The Middle East has been a region of uncertainty and danger for many generations. Whether Iran wants to get the Atomic Bomb in order to trigger Armageddon - literally - I don't know. But I do know a fair few people who DO believe that. Add in the desperation of starving millions as a result of global warming and you have a situation where pushing the button to launch the missile because God told you to do it seems increasingly likely. One thing needed in huge quantities to deal with both these situations is money a a sound financial structure, which leads me on to:
3) The collapse of the Banking system. Just at the time when we should be putting in maximum effort to sorting out (1) and (2) we can do virtually NOTHING without the money to pay for it (WHATEVER "it" is), and there is a significant chance that the rescue plans going on at the moment are just putting sticking plaster on a gaping wound and won't work.
Conclusion: We're ****ed.
This was a very quick summary of my thinking on these issues. Lord knows I hope I'm just being morbid because it's February and I need the Spring, but absolutely seriously I think things look really bad just now.
Please convince me I'm wrong.
The sky is falling, the sky is falling, now you know how the dinosaurs felt.
1) Climate change. Sorry folks, it's happening and it is very likely there is a very significant human input to the process of climate change. Whether this leads to a rise in global temperature (my personal suspicion) of the next Ice Age is in many ways irrelevant - either is a disaster for the Human species, not to mention all other species which are going extinct currently at such a rate some scientists are saying we are in the middle of another mass extinction.
From just the human perspective, the effects of climate change will be horrendous: Let's assume just for this example that the climate warms by a couple of degrees. Imagine the country of Bangladesh, which is basically a large river delta at sea level. Global warming means sa level rise. A sea level rise means the Bangladeshis (and people in many other countries too) migrate. This causes massive death and social unrest and contributes to:
2) Religious Fundamentalism. In times of danger and uncertainty people are more prone to seek for certainties in religion. The Middle East has been a region of uncertainty and danger for many generations. Whether Iran wants to get the Atomic Bomb in order to trigger Armageddon - literally - I don't know. But I do know a fair few people who DO believe that. Add in the desperation of starving millions as a result of global warming and you have a situation where pushing the button to launch the missile because God told you to do it seems increasingly likely. One thing needed in huge quantities to deal with both these situations is money a a sound financial structure, which leads me on to:
3) The collapse of the Banking system. Just at the time when we should be putting in maximum effort to sorting out (1) and (2) we can do virtually NOTHING without the money to pay for it (WHATEVER "it" is), and there is a significant chance that the rescue plans going on at the moment are just putting sticking plaster on a gaping wound and won't work.
Conclusion: We're ****ed.
This was a very quick summary of my thinking on these issues. Lord knows I hope I'm just being morbid because it's February and I need the Spring, but absolutely seriously I think things look really bad just now.
Please convince me I'm wrong.
The sky is falling, the sky is falling, now you know how the dinosaurs felt.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
Er, I think we're in trouble.
But now we can start all over again, just think of the endless possibilities...
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Er, I think we're in trouble.
The sky is falling, the sky is falling, now you know how the dinosaurs felt.
:yh_rotfl
Believe me: I hope I'm doing something like 2+2=22!
In short, we have been sleepwalking into disaster for years now.
Mercifully, but brutally, we just woke up and realized how close we are to the edge of the cliff.
Its time to change everything once more.
and:
But now we can start all over again, just think of the endless possibilities...
Much the same point. And a good one! Analogy can be pushed too far, but I'd describe what you are talking about as a birth. Births involve a lot of blood and screaming and shouting, and there are no guarantees the end result will be good. At the moment I'm looking at all the blood and screaming which it seems we are going to have to go through.
Has anyone seen any politician look as though they are aware of the possibilities? Heck, I said on a thread weeks back that this was the time when the power of vested interest was at its weakest, but I haven't seen a single politician look as though they've noticed. Obama? (I haven't been paying attention)
Nothing is inevitable, and you will usually find that people are at their best when the chips are really down. At the moment we are still running around trying to get our heads around the fact that the era of easy living, and irresponsibility are really coming to an end, and that changes are coming that will challenge fundamentally who we are and what we believe.
Yeah, I think this is the key paragraph. Nothing is inevitable (we'll ignore death and taxes) but the sheer scale of change required for a good outcome to this is....daunting. I think you are absolutely right that what I am doing is running around in a small circle going "Aaaargh!"
My justification for doing so is that I haven't seen anyone put these acknowledged problems together. And I think it needs doing. I don't think any issue can truly be regarded as isolated these days (if it ever could) and ALL have to be resolved.
By gum, what an opportunity for governments to get a grip on multinationals...
:yh_rotfl
Believe me: I hope I'm doing something like 2+2=22!
In short, we have been sleepwalking into disaster for years now.
Mercifully, but brutally, we just woke up and realized how close we are to the edge of the cliff.
Its time to change everything once more.
and:
But now we can start all over again, just think of the endless possibilities...
Much the same point. And a good one! Analogy can be pushed too far, but I'd describe what you are talking about as a birth. Births involve a lot of blood and screaming and shouting, and there are no guarantees the end result will be good. At the moment I'm looking at all the blood and screaming which it seems we are going to have to go through.
Has anyone seen any politician look as though they are aware of the possibilities? Heck, I said on a thread weeks back that this was the time when the power of vested interest was at its weakest, but I haven't seen a single politician look as though they've noticed. Obama? (I haven't been paying attention)
Nothing is inevitable, and you will usually find that people are at their best when the chips are really down. At the moment we are still running around trying to get our heads around the fact that the era of easy living, and irresponsibility are really coming to an end, and that changes are coming that will challenge fundamentally who we are and what we believe.
Yeah, I think this is the key paragraph. Nothing is inevitable (we'll ignore death and taxes
) but the sheer scale of change required for a good outcome to this is....daunting. I think you are absolutely right that what I am doing is running around in a small circle going "Aaaargh!"My justification for doing so is that I haven't seen anyone put these acknowledged problems together. And I think it needs doing. I don't think any issue can truly be regarded as isolated these days (if it ever could) and ALL have to be resolved.
By gum, what an opportunity for governments to get a grip on multinationals...
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Er, I think we're in trouble.
[QUOTE=Clodhopper;1133970]:yh_rotfl
Believe me: I hope I'm doing something like 2+2=22!
and:
Much the same point. And a good one! Analogy can be pushed too far, but I'd describe what you are talking about as a birth. Births involve a lot of blood and screaming and shouting, and there are no guarantees the end result will be good. At the moment I'm looking at all the blood and screaming which it seems we are going to have to go through.
and even with all of that, no one ever prepares you for the afterbirth....
Believe me: I hope I'm doing something like 2+2=22!
and:
Much the same point. And a good one! Analogy can be pushed too far, but I'd describe what you are talking about as a birth. Births involve a lot of blood and screaming and shouting, and there are no guarantees the end result will be good. At the moment I'm looking at all the blood and screaming which it seems we are going to have to go through.
and even with all of that, no one ever prepares you for the afterbirth....
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Galbally;1133943 wrote: In short, we have been sleepwalking into disaster for years now.
Mercifully, but brutally, we just woke up and realized how close we are to the edge of the cliff.
Its time to change everything once more.
Boom or Bust.
The greedy took advantage of the 'Boom' years and now want to duck out of the 'Bust' years and pay for it. When the shyte hits the fan then blame the Politicians.
A large % of our population don't remember the hardship of the wars or life before the NHS and varible mortgages.
They have grown up in a 'buy now pay later' world where they think the country owes them a bloody living and it's a governments duty to keep them in a lifestyle that they believe they are entitled to.
They don't know what it is to budget their household, manage money or be accountable for their recklessness.
I read an article very recently about the generation that this country is breeding where they are are incapable of being educated and will never ever work. They will claim benifit for the rest of their lives because they are un-employable. This worries me far more for the future when these kids are adults then tax increases now to pay our way out of the countries greed and reclessness.
Mercifully, but brutally, we just woke up and realized how close we are to the edge of the cliff.
Its time to change everything once more.
Boom or Bust.
The greedy took advantage of the 'Boom' years and now want to duck out of the 'Bust' years and pay for it. When the shyte hits the fan then blame the Politicians.
A large % of our population don't remember the hardship of the wars or life before the NHS and varible mortgages.
They have grown up in a 'buy now pay later' world where they think the country owes them a bloody living and it's a governments duty to keep them in a lifestyle that they believe they are entitled to.
They don't know what it is to budget their household, manage money or be accountable for their recklessness.
I read an article very recently about the generation that this country is breeding where they are are incapable of being educated and will never ever work. They will claim benifit for the rest of their lives because they are un-employable. This worries me far more for the future when these kids are adults then tax increases now to pay our way out of the countries greed and reclessness.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Clodhopper
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- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Er, I think we're in trouble.
The greedy took advantage of the 'Boom' years and now want to duck out of the 'Bust' years and pay for it. When the shyte hits the fan then blame the Politicians.
True enough. Just wish I could see any signs that the politicians of any Party were thinking big enough to cope with the scale of the problem. At present it seems to me they are just pissing in the wind.
True enough. Just wish I could see any signs that the politicians of any Party were thinking big enough to cope with the scale of the problem. At present it seems to me they are just pissing in the wind.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Jester;1134119 wrote: Clod Im thinkin you need to come spend a day kickin round with me bud.
Every moment life springs eternal, consider the sunrise. Every day, different time, beyond clockwork it peeks passed the horizon and beams of warmth and joy spread over the earth, continously the day rises, peaks and begins to set. Within that period of light life springs forth. Yet what follows in the darkness is a whole nother world of life, set to a different time pattern. Following the natural course of life is death, the one constant is that things change.
You have the wrong perspective- think towards a solution. Then act on it as best you can.
I've seen a lot of things in my time, and one thing Ive seen is that when we quit thinking about moving forward and start down the road of doom we stop.
There's always a way.
The current issues are solvable.
I'm not saying your wrong, Im just saying that when faced with what seem to be insurmountable issues, kick yerself in the patoot and get one boot out in front of the other and think man- think!
Wise words Jester.
I don't mean the posters here but we have a culture in Britain where we sit on our back-sides whinging about this, Gordon Brown that. There is work out there for those who have lost jobs. Asda only recently announced 7,000 new jobs. No politician however great, will please all of the people all of the time. At least we have a leader who is injecting massive investment into the infrastructure of the country to create more jobs.
There is un-doubtedly going to be hard times ahead but as i said before, no one pointed a gun at the heads of the reckless and forced them to borrow money or buy a house that they could not garuntee paying for in their life-time. Sorry to bring it up again, but anyone who has had cancer will know that there is more to life than economic doom and gloom.
Every moment life springs eternal, consider the sunrise. Every day, different time, beyond clockwork it peeks passed the horizon and beams of warmth and joy spread over the earth, continously the day rises, peaks and begins to set. Within that period of light life springs forth. Yet what follows in the darkness is a whole nother world of life, set to a different time pattern. Following the natural course of life is death, the one constant is that things change.
You have the wrong perspective- think towards a solution. Then act on it as best you can.
I've seen a lot of things in my time, and one thing Ive seen is that when we quit thinking about moving forward and start down the road of doom we stop.
There's always a way.
The current issues are solvable.
I'm not saying your wrong, Im just saying that when faced with what seem to be insurmountable issues, kick yerself in the patoot and get one boot out in front of the other and think man- think!
Wise words Jester.
I don't mean the posters here but we have a culture in Britain where we sit on our back-sides whinging about this, Gordon Brown that. There is work out there for those who have lost jobs. Asda only recently announced 7,000 new jobs. No politician however great, will please all of the people all of the time. At least we have a leader who is injecting massive investment into the infrastructure of the country to create more jobs.
There is un-doubtedly going to be hard times ahead but as i said before, no one pointed a gun at the heads of the reckless and forced them to borrow money or buy a house that they could not garuntee paying for in their life-time. Sorry to bring it up again, but anyone who has had cancer will know that there is more to life than economic doom and gloom.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Jester;1134184 wrote: Oscar, for me its just a personal outlook, for as long as i have lived I'b enever been able to sit idle and I dont like stewin about stuff I like to go get stuff done. I actually get Clod right now, I fully understadn what he's lookin at, an dit does look tough ahead- I just havn't ever been in a situation where it's been too tough to give up...
I know Clod won't either, I just wanted to tug him along a bit!
Yep- I agree, the reckless should be the ones we hold accountable for this. I think we need to hang a few greedy bankers and send a message to the rest that we dont like this kind of trouble in our fair cities!
Our government has said that some bankers could seriously be facing fraud charges which according to the press, has sent shock waves through the city boys.
Our press also like to sell newspapers with sensational headlines and they paint the picture far gloomier than it is. Infact, there is evidence that Britain is seeing some small shoots of recovery.
I know Clod won't either, I just wanted to tug him along a bit!
Yep- I agree, the reckless should be the ones we hold accountable for this. I think we need to hang a few greedy bankers and send a message to the rest that we dont like this kind of trouble in our fair cities!
Our government has said that some bankers could seriously be facing fraud charges which according to the press, has sent shock waves through the city boys.
Our press also like to sell newspapers with sensational headlines and they paint the picture far gloomier than it is. Infact, there is evidence that Britain is seeing some small shoots of recovery.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Jester: You are so right! And in day-to-day ways I appreciate the beauty around me. In fact, you could say that one good thing about this sense of impending doom I have is that I'm appreciating it more because I am so aware of its essential fragility.
And of course it's February, which over here is the real arsehole of the year...
And in the long term I think humanity will survive. We're a tough and resourceful species.
It's the medium term that bothers me.
I've cut my carbon footprint, recycle, don't use a car. I come on here and talk ideas with people because I believe in the power of ideas and the good that can come from discussion of them.
Chuckle. Bit tricky, this, 'cause I've now got to talk about an area where you seem to have a direct personal interest. So let me be clear that I'm talking about the situation as I see it in general, and not - repeat not - you personally.
I have a great fear of the dangers of religious fundamentalism because I've studied enough history and I've lived next door to Northern Ireland for 40+ years. Check out the Thirty Years War in Europe (1618-38) which were Catholic vs Protestant religious conflicts. Both sides believed - truly believed - that they were fighting God's War against the agents of the Devil (it's more complex than that, but the gist is there). The result was atrocity upon atrocity on both sides, with the sack of Magdeburg the being the worst I know of.
I look at the current Middle East, and note the hardening of attitudes across the religious world right now, and worry that we're heading in that direction - people doing their level best to do what they think is God's will, and creating Hell on Earth.
There is an up side to this: the horrors of the Thirty Years War are widely believed by historians to have helped usher in the Age of Enlightenment in Europe because no-one wanted to go back to those terrors. Amongst other things it led to a period when warfare in Europe was fought with comparatively few casualties as generals tried to manoeuver eachother to defeat without fighting battles! I think some of the first attempts at Laws of War and International Law were formulated in the United Provinces (modern Holland and Belgium) about that time, as well.
The money side of it - I don't remotely pretend to understand what has happened. But we're just starting to see the poo hit the air conditioning over here. It's clearly going to be bad. I remember the social unrest of the 1980's. Could be a lot worse this time. There's a strong argument says we need a jolt, but this looks like being a real kicking. We're pretty crowded in this little island, and if we get a hot, hot summer I expect riots.
Upside: The '80s recession helped integrate the Afro-Caribbean community when they made friends with the Punks! (I'm probably going to get shouted at for that one, but there's a good case for it!)
Global Warming, well, that's been done to death on this site.
It's getting late and my brain hurts;). Will leave it there for now and think about some short comments elsewhere.
And of course it's February, which over here is the real arsehole of the year...
And in the long term I think humanity will survive. We're a tough and resourceful species.
It's the medium term that bothers me.
I've cut my carbon footprint, recycle, don't use a car. I come on here and talk ideas with people because I believe in the power of ideas and the good that can come from discussion of them.
Chuckle. Bit tricky, this, 'cause I've now got to talk about an area where you seem to have a direct personal interest. So let me be clear that I'm talking about the situation as I see it in general, and not - repeat not - you personally.
I have a great fear of the dangers of religious fundamentalism because I've studied enough history and I've lived next door to Northern Ireland for 40+ years. Check out the Thirty Years War in Europe (1618-38) which were Catholic vs Protestant religious conflicts. Both sides believed - truly believed - that they were fighting God's War against the agents of the Devil (it's more complex than that, but the gist is there). The result was atrocity upon atrocity on both sides, with the sack of Magdeburg the being the worst I know of.
I look at the current Middle East, and note the hardening of attitudes across the religious world right now, and worry that we're heading in that direction - people doing their level best to do what they think is God's will, and creating Hell on Earth.
There is an up side to this: the horrors of the Thirty Years War are widely believed by historians to have helped usher in the Age of Enlightenment in Europe because no-one wanted to go back to those terrors. Amongst other things it led to a period when warfare in Europe was fought with comparatively few casualties as generals tried to manoeuver eachother to defeat without fighting battles! I think some of the first attempts at Laws of War and International Law were formulated in the United Provinces (modern Holland and Belgium) about that time, as well.
The money side of it - I don't remotely pretend to understand what has happened. But we're just starting to see the poo hit the air conditioning over here. It's clearly going to be bad. I remember the social unrest of the 1980's. Could be a lot worse this time. There's a strong argument says we need a jolt, but this looks like being a real kicking. We're pretty crowded in this little island, and if we get a hot, hot summer I expect riots.
Upside: The '80s recession helped integrate the Afro-Caribbean community when they made friends with the Punks! (I'm probably going to get shouted at for that one, but there's a good case for it!)
Global Warming, well, that's been done to death on this site.
It's getting late and my brain hurts;). Will leave it there for now and think about some short comments elsewhere.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Its been reported over here in Ireland that several top financiers and bankers may be looking at 10 years in jail, the fraud squad has been called in to investigated some very dodgy institutions, and pay caps are on the way for the rest. Now thats some news we can all cheer.
I hope its not just talk this time. :-6
As for the other sentiments expressed, I can only agree, life is a gift, enjoy it while you have it, no matter what the times are like. It will be a long very hard year, and probably a summer of unrest everywhere, but we will get through it. Think of what the poor people in Australia just had to endure, we not so badly off, we're have a lot to be thankful for. :-6
I hope its not just talk this time. :-6
As for the other sentiments expressed, I can only agree, life is a gift, enjoy it while you have it, no matter what the times are like. It will be a long very hard year, and probably a summer of unrest everywhere, but we will get through it. Think of what the poor people in Australia just had to endure, we not so badly off, we're have a lot to be thankful for. :-6
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Galbally: Agreed about Australia. Cowardice on my part - I didn't want to be the one saying this is just the beginning. But since the subject has come up I more or less have to (see mct Jester below). I am aware of the 20 year climate cycle, since we seem to have something similar over here, and fear very much it's going to be like this year a lot more often, until this year is normal. And if the Gulf Stream shuts down, we're going to get cold the way they get heat.
...and Oscar: Very glad to hear the Serious Fraud mob are looking at our bankers. I think they are so corrupt they don't know it - like Neil and Christine Hamilton, if you remember them. And maybe the talk of pay caps is a sign that some politicians ARE beginning to realise the scale on which things need to be done. Though if so, these are very early signs and no more.
Jester: I do appreciate the kindness of your post, and the sense you talked. And I winced when I realised an honest reply meant I was going to have to talk about this issue. I hope very much that I haven't upset you.
I don't think we are doomed beyond hope of recovery as a civilisation. But I think there is a worryingly large chance of that if the seriousness of the situation - in its totality - is not realised.
...and Oscar: Very glad to hear the Serious Fraud mob are looking at our bankers. I think they are so corrupt they don't know it - like Neil and Christine Hamilton, if you remember them. And maybe the talk of pay caps is a sign that some politicians ARE beginning to realise the scale on which things need to be done. Though if so, these are very early signs and no more.
Jester: I do appreciate the kindness of your post, and the sense you talked. And I winced when I realised an honest reply meant I was going to have to talk about this issue. I hope very much that I haven't upset you.
I don't think we are doomed beyond hope of recovery as a civilisation. But I think there is a worryingly large chance of that if the seriousness of the situation - in its totality - is not realised.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Clodhopper;1134475 wrote: Galbally: Agreed about Australia. Cowardice on my part - I didn't want to be the one saying this is just the beginning. But since the subject has come up I more or less have to (see mct Jester below). I am aware of the 20 year climate cycle, since we seem to have something similar over here, and fear very much it's going to be like this year a lot more often, until this year is normal. And if the Gulf Stream shuts down, we're going to get cold the way they get heat.
...and Oscar: Very glad to hear the Serious Fraud mob are looking at our bankers. I think they are so corrupt they don't know it - like Neil and Christine Hamilton, if you remember them. And maybe the talk of pay caps is a sign that some politicians ARE beginning to realise the scale on which things need to be done. Though if so, these are very early signs and no more.
Jester: I do appreciate the kindness of your post, and the sense you talked. And I winced when I realised an honest reply meant I was going to have to talk about this issue. I hope very much that I haven't upset you.
I don't think we are doomed beyond hope of recovery as a civilisation. But I think there is a worryingly large chance of that if the seriousness of the situation - in its totality - is not realised.
Now the suspect is in custody, it appears the Australian bushfires were not an act of global warming but at the hands of an arsonist and were started deliberately.
At the height of the economic collapse a few months ago now, Gordon Brown did threaten that some bankers would face legal action. I am so pleased he has followed this through and the Fraud squad are now delving deep into certain bank chiefs.
I remember The Hamiltons well along with Archer and every other crook going :wah:
...and Oscar: Very glad to hear the Serious Fraud mob are looking at our bankers. I think they are so corrupt they don't know it - like Neil and Christine Hamilton, if you remember them. And maybe the talk of pay caps is a sign that some politicians ARE beginning to realise the scale on which things need to be done. Though if so, these are very early signs and no more.
Jester: I do appreciate the kindness of your post, and the sense you talked. And I winced when I realised an honest reply meant I was going to have to talk about this issue. I hope very much that I haven't upset you.
I don't think we are doomed beyond hope of recovery as a civilisation. But I think there is a worryingly large chance of that if the seriousness of the situation - in its totality - is not realised.
Now the suspect is in custody, it appears the Australian bushfires were not an act of global warming but at the hands of an arsonist and were started deliberately.
At the height of the economic collapse a few months ago now, Gordon Brown did threaten that some bankers would face legal action. I am so pleased he has followed this through and the Fraud squad are now delving deep into certain bank chiefs.
I remember The Hamiltons well along with Archer and every other crook going :wah:
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Er, I think we're in trouble.
appears the Australian bushfires were not an act of global warming but at the hands of an arsonist and were started deliberately.
(surprised) What, all of them? I thought there were many fires and a few of them were started by arsonists. And it does seem likely that the very high temperatures and drought have been made worse by some of the early effects of global warming, though I gather they are at the peak of a 20 year cycle. The question is, is it a higher peak as a result of global warming? I think the answer is "Yes".
(surprised) What, all of them? I thought there were many fires and a few of them were started by arsonists. And it does seem likely that the very high temperatures and drought have been made worse by some of the early effects of global warming, though I gather they are at the peak of a 20 year cycle. The question is, is it a higher peak as a result of global warming? I think the answer is "Yes".
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Clodhopper;1134557 wrote: (surprised) What, all of them? I thought there were many fires and a few of them were started by arsonists. And it does seem likely that the very high temperatures and drought have been made worse by some of the early effects of global warming, though I gather they are at the peak of a 20 year cycle. The question is, is it a higher peak as a result of global warming? I think the answer is "Yes".
The full story of the guy they have in custody is not out yet. Sorry, i should have said that he may be responsible for starting one or more of the fires.
Have you heard of global dimming? Bryn and i talked of it on a thread some weeks ago....... fascinating stuff and worth a google.
And oye..... you leave my Mistle Thrush alone you :wah:
The full story of the guy they have in custody is not out yet. Sorry, i should have said that he may be responsible for starting one or more of the fires.
Have you heard of global dimming? Bryn and i talked of it on a thread some weeks ago....... fascinating stuff and worth a google.
And oye..... you leave my Mistle Thrush alone you :wah:
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Maybe i live in another world.... I don't know but i do not believe it is as bad as the tabloids wish to make us believe. There is good news but tabloids are tucking these items away and going for the shock headlines. I see jobs being created, interest rates at their lowest and grocery prices prices coming down to name some.
My fear, should this take some years to fully recover from, is a possible increase in crime. I said before that we have a 'middle' generation that has been born without any accountability for recklessness and children who are incapable of being educated or employed looking for a life time on benifits. This generation is too young to understand what hardship is and as i said before, have no idea of how to budget a household or manage money. If the governments have to get really tough and cut the benifit bill, i see a generation who will not simply be told 'you can't have that'. I know people in my own village who's commitment to their country is to bend down and pick the benifit check up off the doormat once a fortnight. A few i know, before they have even bought food for their children, go off to the supermarket to get cheap booze, ciggs and meet their dealer. If times of real hardship come, I'm in no doubt that some of these people will either let their children go without further or turn to crime to fund their habits.
In 20 years time when i'm old, i will be relying on the youth of today who can not be educated or employed to contribute to our country. That is when i believe it will fold if it does.
My fear, should this take some years to fully recover from, is a possible increase in crime. I said before that we have a 'middle' generation that has been born without any accountability for recklessness and children who are incapable of being educated or employed looking for a life time on benifits. This generation is too young to understand what hardship is and as i said before, have no idea of how to budget a household or manage money. If the governments have to get really tough and cut the benifit bill, i see a generation who will not simply be told 'you can't have that'. I know people in my own village who's commitment to their country is to bend down and pick the benifit check up off the doormat once a fortnight. A few i know, before they have even bought food for their children, go off to the supermarket to get cheap booze, ciggs and meet their dealer. If times of real hardship come, I'm in no doubt that some of these people will either let their children go without further or turn to crime to fund their habits.
In 20 years time when i'm old, i will be relying on the youth of today who can not be educated or employed to contribute to our country. That is when i believe it will fold if it does.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Jester;1134855 wrote: Oscar how many youths are you talking about? (th eones that seem to be useless for anything but staying on public assistance) I've a feeling its less than what we imagine.
Here too it would seem we have a large group that is not 'educatable', but in reality its still less than I'd guess 10% of society- The kids do grow up and see they must work to make the moeny they want tp spend.
I was hoping to find the link but there was a very good article on this a few days ago in one of our tabloids.
Of course, the um-employable kids of today is a minority but i agree with the article when they said that this kind of 'middle generation' is widespread throughout this country.
There was another report today in our press about the figures of children as young as five years old that have to be excluded from schools because they are violent or so disruptive.
It is ultimately the parents that are to blame but the parents are no better.
Here too it would seem we have a large group that is not 'educatable', but in reality its still less than I'd guess 10% of society- The kids do grow up and see they must work to make the moeny they want tp spend.
I was hoping to find the link but there was a very good article on this a few days ago in one of our tabloids.
Of course, the um-employable kids of today is a minority but i agree with the article when they said that this kind of 'middle generation' is widespread throughout this country.
There was another report today in our press about the figures of children as young as five years old that have to be excluded from schools because they are violent or so disruptive.
It is ultimately the parents that are to blame but the parents are no better.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Er, I think we're in trouble.
A few years ago I did a bit of a stint as a teacher in a secondary (high) school teaching science subbing for some money, so I got to see modern kids in all their glory. What I would say is that most of the kids were good, decent, hard-working kids Oscar, they were smart, knew things about the world I didn't, and had a work ethic, they were probably a little economically sheltered compared to the times I had grown up in the 1970s and 80s, though more exposed to stuff on TV and the internet and so they think they are all grown up and knowing; but were just kids. Of hard times they had seen nothing, well those that had normal families, the tough kids had seen some hard road.
So are modern kids prepared for the way their lives are going to change, well no. Though to be honest I don't think anyone who can't remember the 1930s and the War will have any preparation for the depression that we are entering now. None of us, unless your over 70.
As for the kids, there was the segment of very, very disruptive, bad kids, who obviously have no supervision, and have no interest in being in school, we had them in my time as well, but their behaviour is more extreme now, and there is way less respect for adults or authority nowadays, the main issue with that is that you can't do much about it, basically most of these ones need either a good smacking or to just be expelled to allow the other kids to learn, but you can't do that because its terribly wrong, the nanny state feels it can act as parent now as well, and so teachers are supposed to act as a surrogates for bad parents, which is patently impossible. That's the problem. Teachers can't be parents, and neither can the state, but we can't talk about it because its sensitive and no one wants to confront the issues of why there are so many bad, selfish, thick parents out there.
So I would say the current generation of kids is no better or worse than any other, unfortunately some of the fads in nonsensical parenting, in the way society has drifted to the atomized selfish state its in now, the PC ideas of our spoiled 60s and 70s generation and the nanny state, and the 1980s worship of money and individualism we have hasn't served these children very well, but thats not their fault. Most of them are good kids, they will be alright, hopefully they won't make the same mistakes we did.
So are modern kids prepared for the way their lives are going to change, well no. Though to be honest I don't think anyone who can't remember the 1930s and the War will have any preparation for the depression that we are entering now. None of us, unless your over 70.
As for the kids, there was the segment of very, very disruptive, bad kids, who obviously have no supervision, and have no interest in being in school, we had them in my time as well, but their behaviour is more extreme now, and there is way less respect for adults or authority nowadays, the main issue with that is that you can't do much about it, basically most of these ones need either a good smacking or to just be expelled to allow the other kids to learn, but you can't do that because its terribly wrong, the nanny state feels it can act as parent now as well, and so teachers are supposed to act as a surrogates for bad parents, which is patently impossible. That's the problem. Teachers can't be parents, and neither can the state, but we can't talk about it because its sensitive and no one wants to confront the issues of why there are so many bad, selfish, thick parents out there.
So I would say the current generation of kids is no better or worse than any other, unfortunately some of the fads in nonsensical parenting, in the way society has drifted to the atomized selfish state its in now, the PC ideas of our spoiled 60s and 70s generation and the nanny state, and the 1980s worship of money and individualism we have hasn't served these children very well, but thats not their fault. Most of them are good kids, they will be alright, hopefully they won't make the same mistakes we did.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Er, I think we're in trouble.
I'd second that. Almost all kids are pretty decent. Remember the children's protest over the War in Iraq? That was entirely genuine and organised by 16 and 17 year olds. I was so proud of them for that.
Still worried about the world we're handing them. Lord. It just gets worse:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7890988.stm
To be honest I hesitated to link this. But there's no point hiding from the evidence.
Still worried about the world we're handing them. Lord. It just gets worse:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7890988.stm
To be honest I hesitated to link this. But there's no point hiding from the evidence.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Clodhopper;1135137 wrote: I'd second that. Almost all kids are pretty decent. Remember the children's protest over the War in Iraq? That was entirely genuine and organised by 16 and 17 year olds. I was so proud of them for that.
Still worried about the world we're handing them. Lord. It just gets worse:
BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | Global warming 'underestimated'
To be honest I hesitated to link this. But there's no point hiding from the evidence.
No, I heard about it. To be honest, there is stuff I know about from work and various conferences and meetings I attend that would probably turn your hair white; global climate destabilization is far more advanced than most people realize and the consequences are pretty stark I am afraid; however, I still maintain that we are not done for, though the times are undoubtedly going to be scary going into the future.
Still worried about the world we're handing them. Lord. It just gets worse:
BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | Global warming 'underestimated'
To be honest I hesitated to link this. But there's no point hiding from the evidence.
No, I heard about it. To be honest, there is stuff I know about from work and various conferences and meetings I attend that would probably turn your hair white; global climate destabilization is far more advanced than most people realize and the consequences are pretty stark I am afraid; however, I still maintain that we are not done for, though the times are undoubtedly going to be scary going into the future.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Galbally;1135158 wrote: No, I heard about it. To be honest, there is stuff I know about from work and various conferences and meetings I attend that would probably turn your hair white; global climate destabilization is far more advanced than most people realize and the consequences are pretty stark I am afraid; however, I still maintain that we are not done for, though the times are undoubtedly going to be scary going into the future.
I agree with you and Clod that yes, most kids are decent kids. However, i also agree with the report i read in the press a few days ago.
I live in a small village that chucks 1200 kids out of school every day. I would say that one quater of my village is on benifit. We have a serious youth problem in my area and something the police have to have regually meetings with the residents over.
As i said before, the parents commitment to the country is picking the benifit cheque up once a fortnight. When i look after our friends take-away, i see these kids come in barely able to string a sentence together let alone have the educational or social skills needed to get them work in what is now a compeitive job market.
If you happen to live in some idyllic corner of the British Isles where you do not witness sink estates first hand, then you have no idea of how much worse this is getting.
They are not now confined to council estates. As we have here, new housing developements give up a proportion of new builds to the council and housing association for homeless families. A typical example of this is a new developement very near us where the average house will cost you approx £200,000 to £3,000. In among those are the houses that have been given to the council with tenants in them. Within a year, that development is a shyte hole. Old matressess in gardens, broken fences, etc. Becuase no facilities are built for the teenagers of these families, we then get the anti-social behaviour.
When the story of karen Matthews hit the press, some people were shocked that she had 7 kids by different fathers living a life on benifits drinking and smoking. That is not a one off. There are Karen Matthews and far worse all over the country. They are un-educated and un-employable and their kids are incapable of being educated or employed. Alot of the kids have a 'why should i?' attitude due to seeing their parents still drink, smoke and anything else on their benifit check. Their parents don't have to do anything to be accountable so why should they?
It is far far worse than 20 years ago.... far worse and if you think it isn't then i suggest you come down to Bristol and I'll take you round a few sink estates to meet the residents. Don't forget your body armour.
I agree with you and Clod that yes, most kids are decent kids. However, i also agree with the report i read in the press a few days ago.
I live in a small village that chucks 1200 kids out of school every day. I would say that one quater of my village is on benifit. We have a serious youth problem in my area and something the police have to have regually meetings with the residents over.
As i said before, the parents commitment to the country is picking the benifit cheque up once a fortnight. When i look after our friends take-away, i see these kids come in barely able to string a sentence together let alone have the educational or social skills needed to get them work in what is now a compeitive job market.
If you happen to live in some idyllic corner of the British Isles where you do not witness sink estates first hand, then you have no idea of how much worse this is getting.
They are not now confined to council estates. As we have here, new housing developements give up a proportion of new builds to the council and housing association for homeless families. A typical example of this is a new developement very near us where the average house will cost you approx £200,000 to £3,000. In among those are the houses that have been given to the council with tenants in them. Within a year, that development is a shyte hole. Old matressess in gardens, broken fences, etc. Becuase no facilities are built for the teenagers of these families, we then get the anti-social behaviour.
When the story of karen Matthews hit the press, some people were shocked that she had 7 kids by different fathers living a life on benifits drinking and smoking. That is not a one off. There are Karen Matthews and far worse all over the country. They are un-educated and un-employable and their kids are incapable of being educated or employed. Alot of the kids have a 'why should i?' attitude due to seeing their parents still drink, smoke and anything else on their benifit check. Their parents don't have to do anything to be accountable so why should they?
It is far far worse than 20 years ago.... far worse and if you think it isn't then i suggest you come down to Bristol and I'll take you round a few sink estates to meet the residents. Don't forget your body armour.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Er, I think we're in trouble.
oscar;1135302 wrote: I agree with you and Clod that yes, most kids are decent kids. However, i also agree with the report i read in the press a few days ago.
I live in a small village that chucks 1200 kids out of school every day. I would say that one quater of my village is on benifit. We have a serious youth problem in my area and something the police have to have regually meetings with the residents over.
As i said before, the parents commitment to the country is picking the benifit cheque up once a fortnight. When i look after our friends take-away, i see these kids come in barely able to string a sentence together let alone have the educational or social skills needed to get them work in what is now a compeitive job market.
If you happen to live in some idyllic corner of the British Isles where you do not witness sink estates first hand, then you have no idea of how much worse this is getting.
They are not now confined to council estates. As we have here, new housing developements give up a proportion of new builds to the council and housing association for homeless families. A typical example of this is a new developement very near us where the average house will cost you approx £200,000 to £3,000. In among those are the houses that have been given to the council with tenants in them. Within a year, that development is a shyte hole. Old matressess in gardens, broken fences, etc. Becuase no facilities are built for the teenagers of these families, we then get the anti-social behaviour.
When the story of karen Matthews hit the press, some people were shocked that she had 7 kids by different fathers living a life on benifits drinking and smoking. That is not a one off. There are Karen Matthews and far worse all over the country. They are un-educated and un-employable and their kids are incapable of being educated or employed. Alot of the kids have a 'why should i?' attitude due to seeing their parents still drink, smoke and anything else on their benifit check. Their parents don't have to do anything to be accountable so why should they?
It is far far worse than 20 years ago.... far worse and if you think it isn't then i suggest you come down to Bristol and I'll take you round a few sink estates to meet the residents. Don't forget your body armour.
I grew up in Castle Vale in Birmingham, it was the largest council sink estate in Europe in its day. I've been back to Britain many times since, and yes, you are right, there is a social timebomb ticking away ready to go off in some parts of the country.
This depression is going to be very scary in lots of places, as many people simply lack the coping skills to deal with anything, while others turn to crime and drugs, and many traditional community bonds simply no longer exist as they became socially unfashionable. We also have problems here, in Dublin there are places you wouldn't drive through and I am not joking there are very rough areas indeed; but our social problems are not on the same scale as the ones in Britain, as essentially we are a much smaller country, we have a more cohesive conservative society, also we have had far far less immigration or social alienation; though no country is immune from these problems and issues.
I live in a small village that chucks 1200 kids out of school every day. I would say that one quater of my village is on benifit. We have a serious youth problem in my area and something the police have to have regually meetings with the residents over.
As i said before, the parents commitment to the country is picking the benifit cheque up once a fortnight. When i look after our friends take-away, i see these kids come in barely able to string a sentence together let alone have the educational or social skills needed to get them work in what is now a compeitive job market.
If you happen to live in some idyllic corner of the British Isles where you do not witness sink estates first hand, then you have no idea of how much worse this is getting.
They are not now confined to council estates. As we have here, new housing developements give up a proportion of new builds to the council and housing association for homeless families. A typical example of this is a new developement very near us where the average house will cost you approx £200,000 to £3,000. In among those are the houses that have been given to the council with tenants in them. Within a year, that development is a shyte hole. Old matressess in gardens, broken fences, etc. Becuase no facilities are built for the teenagers of these families, we then get the anti-social behaviour.
When the story of karen Matthews hit the press, some people were shocked that she had 7 kids by different fathers living a life on benifits drinking and smoking. That is not a one off. There are Karen Matthews and far worse all over the country. They are un-educated and un-employable and their kids are incapable of being educated or employed. Alot of the kids have a 'why should i?' attitude due to seeing their parents still drink, smoke and anything else on their benifit check. Their parents don't have to do anything to be accountable so why should they?
It is far far worse than 20 years ago.... far worse and if you think it isn't then i suggest you come down to Bristol and I'll take you round a few sink estates to meet the residents. Don't forget your body armour.
I grew up in Castle Vale in Birmingham, it was the largest council sink estate in Europe in its day. I've been back to Britain many times since, and yes, you are right, there is a social timebomb ticking away ready to go off in some parts of the country.
This depression is going to be very scary in lots of places, as many people simply lack the coping skills to deal with anything, while others turn to crime and drugs, and many traditional community bonds simply no longer exist as they became socially unfashionable. We also have problems here, in Dublin there are places you wouldn't drive through and I am not joking there are very rough areas indeed; but our social problems are not on the same scale as the ones in Britain, as essentially we are a much smaller country, we have a more cohesive conservative society, also we have had far far less immigration or social alienation; though no country is immune from these problems and issues.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Jester;1135295 wrote: Gal, Clod,
I hear your fears, but I haven't read your posts fully or links yet, but I will when I get back this morning.
But lets give a good cheer for the scientist and inventive minds out there that have a solution- becasue I know a solution exists- we just have to get past all the walls and barriers governments put up that block those solutions from coming into play.
I think some scientists are already starting to think of either coming up with very radical technological solutions to climate change, (as its probably already far to late to do anything about emissions and no one is listening anyway).
For the real pessimists now, its either that or advising governments to just start planning for a world where there are a lot more people, a lot less resources left (especially food), a lot more extreme climate, a lot more ocean and less coastal land, and a lot more wars over who owns what.
In other words, pull up the drawbridge, build up your military and navy, go nuclear on energy, save what can be saved of civilization, and forget the rest.
I hear your fears, but I haven't read your posts fully or links yet, but I will when I get back this morning.
But lets give a good cheer for the scientist and inventive minds out there that have a solution- becasue I know a solution exists- we just have to get past all the walls and barriers governments put up that block those solutions from coming into play.
I think some scientists are already starting to think of either coming up with very radical technological solutions to climate change, (as its probably already far to late to do anything about emissions and no one is listening anyway).
For the real pessimists now, its either that or advising governments to just start planning for a world where there are a lot more people, a lot less resources left (especially food), a lot more extreme climate, a lot more ocean and less coastal land, and a lot more wars over who owns what.
In other words, pull up the drawbridge, build up your military and navy, go nuclear on energy, save what can be saved of civilization, and forget the rest.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Jester;1135599 wrote: If the ocean levels rise on average more than 5 inches over the next 20 years I will be amazed.
The only thing I agree on is to build nuclear power plants.
We'll figure a way to make more food, we'll adjust to any weather changes and I think the world got enough arms floating around we dont need more.
I am an optimist!
I'm always optimistic and i don't believe things are as bad as newspaper shock headlines will have us believe.
Natural selection plays a large part in increasing population. Their will always be famine, disease, drought and of course, war.
The earth naturally goes through climate change every so many years. We have all survived this long and we will in the future.
The only thing I agree on is to build nuclear power plants.
We'll figure a way to make more food, we'll adjust to any weather changes and I think the world got enough arms floating around we dont need more.
I am an optimist!
I'm always optimistic and i don't believe things are as bad as newspaper shock headlines will have us believe.
Natural selection plays a large part in increasing population. Their will always be famine, disease, drought and of course, war.
The earth naturally goes through climate change every so many years. We have all survived this long and we will in the future.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Er, I think we're in trouble.
oscar;1135607 wrote: I'm always optimistic and i don't believe things are as bad as newspaper shock headlines will have us believe.
Natural selection plays a large part in increasing population. Their will always be famine, disease, drought and of course, war.
The earth naturally goes through climate change every so many years. We have all survived this long and we will in the future.
What are you basing this last comment on, and what do you mean?
The earth does go through climate changes, certainly, but the period of human history and civilzation only goes back 10,000 years (which strangely enough is about the end of the last Ice age). While the speicies is only 100,000 years old, and spent most of that time in Africa, well away from the glacial ice sheet, or artic tundra that was Northern Europe for much of that time.
The climate changes we are witnessing now are unprecedended for at least that length of time, and certainly, current CO2 levels are higher now than they have been for at least a quarter of a million years, that is something that should be extremely alarming to you, but obviously not.
Its important to point out that the climate is totally variable on planet earth, indeed, but most "natural" climate destabilization events tend to occur over intervals of millions of years, not 20 year "sun cycles" and result in a planet that alters radically, and also involve mass extinctions, particularly of everything at the top of the food chain, at the moment, that means us, and all other large land animals left. So I don't know why you are so sangiune.
Natural selection plays a large part in increasing population. Their will always be famine, disease, drought and of course, war.
The earth naturally goes through climate change every so many years. We have all survived this long and we will in the future.
What are you basing this last comment on, and what do you mean?
The earth does go through climate changes, certainly, but the period of human history and civilzation only goes back 10,000 years (which strangely enough is about the end of the last Ice age). While the speicies is only 100,000 years old, and spent most of that time in Africa, well away from the glacial ice sheet, or artic tundra that was Northern Europe for much of that time.
The climate changes we are witnessing now are unprecedended for at least that length of time, and certainly, current CO2 levels are higher now than they have been for at least a quarter of a million years, that is something that should be extremely alarming to you, but obviously not.
Its important to point out that the climate is totally variable on planet earth, indeed, but most "natural" climate destabilization events tend to occur over intervals of millions of years, not 20 year "sun cycles" and result in a planet that alters radically, and also involve mass extinctions, particularly of everything at the top of the food chain, at the moment, that means us, and all other large land animals left. So I don't know why you are so sangiune.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Most interesting andd thoughtful posts. Thanks, folks.
It seems possible to pull together a loose consensus on this:
Although the medium term looks pretty bleak, largely as a result of the three factors I mentioned (though I take Jester's point and am actually referring to religious extremism, not fundamentalism) and Oscar's social timebomb, there is a confidence that the species will survive in the long term.
But the medium term looks bad. Really bad for the folk who are going to have to live through it in some of the more vulnerable regions of the world, but we will all suffer.
In the short term, many of us are noticing the beauty of the world around us in ways we had not before. Particularly in the small things.
And finally, that the solutions are political and technological, so if anyone has found cold fusion, please let us know. (check the back of the sofa)
It seems possible to pull together a loose consensus on this:
Although the medium term looks pretty bleak, largely as a result of the three factors I mentioned (though I take Jester's point and am actually referring to religious extremism, not fundamentalism) and Oscar's social timebomb, there is a confidence that the species will survive in the long term.
But the medium term looks bad. Really bad for the folk who are going to have to live through it in some of the more vulnerable regions of the world, but we will all suffer.
In the short term, many of us are noticing the beauty of the world around us in ways we had not before. Particularly in the small things.
And finally, that the solutions are political and technological, so if anyone has found cold fusion, please let us know. (check the back of the sofa)
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Er, I think we're in trouble.
What are you basing this last comment on, and what do you mean?
Would I be right in saying your frustration is about the fact that although many of us have intellectually accepted that a good deal of this bad stuff is going to happen and the consequences will be inevitably appalling....
We HAVEN'T emotionally accepted it or incorporated it into our world view.
So we nod our heads and agree - and then go on talking, thinking, acting as though nothing were happening?
Would I be right in saying your frustration is about the fact that although many of us have intellectually accepted that a good deal of this bad stuff is going to happen and the consequences will be inevitably appalling....
We HAVEN'T emotionally accepted it or incorporated it into our world view.
So we nod our heads and agree - and then go on talking, thinking, acting as though nothing were happening?
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Weve got even bigger problems. I understand our solar system is moving outwards and in about 20 billion years were all going to be dust.
I AM AWESOME MAN
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Weve got even bigger problems. I understand our solar system is moving outwards and in about 20 billion years were all going to be dust.
:wah:
Can't see that bothering you. You already exist at right angles to everything.
:wah:
Can't see that bothering you. You already exist at right angles to everything.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Clodhopper;1136062 wrote: :wah:
Can't see that bothering you. You already exist at right angles to everything.
Its my plight.
Can't see that bothering you. You already exist at right angles to everything.
Its my plight.
I AM AWESOME MAN
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Jester;1135599 wrote: If the ocean levels rise on average more than 5 inches over the next 20 years I will be amazed.
The only thing I agree on is to build nuclear power plants.
We'll figure a way to make more food, we'll adjust to any weather changes and I think the world got enough arms floating around we dont need more.
I am an optimist!
If the oceans rise less than five feet over the next hundred years I'll be amazed.
Building nuclear power plants is only the start.
The only thing I agree on is to build nuclear power plants.
We'll figure a way to make more food, we'll adjust to any weather changes and I think the world got enough arms floating around we dont need more.
I am an optimist!
If the oceans rise less than five feet over the next hundred years I'll be amazed.
Building nuclear power plants is only the start.
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Jester;1137019 wrote: Then lets get started- The US needs a new power grid plan and to start working on it, then we need deisel-electric cars with CDT as our stadard (instead of ICE only).
Add domestic oil only to my list of demands and the US will lead the world in clean powered technology.
Not enough - we're to near the tipping points just to tweak our current parameters, we need a radical rethink and quickly if we are to make any difference.
Add domestic oil only to my list of demands and the US will lead the world in clean powered technology.
Not enough - we're to near the tipping points just to tweak our current parameters, we need a radical rethink and quickly if we are to make any difference.
Er, I think we're in trouble.
In my opinion, we need to build an entirely new generation of Nuclear Power stations for the medium term, its the only solution, renewables are good, but they can't provide the energy we require at their current development levels, and other more exotic technologies are decades away.
We also need to start planning for worst case scenarios, in terms of climate change, because its coming. I think we may fast be approaching a tipping point and we could be talking only a decade or two, hopefully we will get a run in to it, that will make it obvious its happening, without overwhelming all our resources immediately. If we get that, we may finally get the political will and the general public understanding that this is actually real, and not some sci-fi movie.
If we have that, we may have time to save a lot of things and people. That means much better infrastucture to cope with more extreme weather, floods, fires, droughts, and higher sea levels, which will mean either building serious flood defences for important costal cities, or simply a staged abandonment of them and a move to higher ground inland.
We will all need to make sure of food supplies, agricultural land, energy supplies, access to materials for industry, disease control, national security, collective security arrangements, and social structures, because its going to be very difficult situation. The politics of this also needs to be looked at hard, as do the implications for the areas worst effected by the changes. What's hardest to actually predict is what the precise patterns are going to be, thats the killer, you may find that we end up freezing in Europe and Burning in America, or Washed away in the British Isles, while Italy becomes a desert, or the other way around.
No one is quite sure, other than to say that the destabilizing climate is going to result in a world where the weather patterns, shorelines, and basic climatology are radically different than they are now. What precisely it means for each individual country is going to be harder to predict until very clear climate change is upon us. Thats an unnerving aspect of it.
The single biggest initial problem is going to be famine as agriculture will inevitably be disrupted on a global scale, and massive, massive economic and political dislocation, as the panic sets in once people realize its real. Then global despair when its realized that its irreversible. That may lead to some terrible things happening. It will take very strong leadership to get through it, if getting through it is possible, it may not be.
One way or another now, its my opinion that its going to happen on a serious scale, very probably in our lifetimes, if we are lucky we may have enough time to do something to at least survive it, if it happens quickly it won't make any difference, there won't be anything we can do, so there is little point worrying at this stage.
We also need to start planning for worst case scenarios, in terms of climate change, because its coming. I think we may fast be approaching a tipping point and we could be talking only a decade or two, hopefully we will get a run in to it, that will make it obvious its happening, without overwhelming all our resources immediately. If we get that, we may finally get the political will and the general public understanding that this is actually real, and not some sci-fi movie.
If we have that, we may have time to save a lot of things and people. That means much better infrastucture to cope with more extreme weather, floods, fires, droughts, and higher sea levels, which will mean either building serious flood defences for important costal cities, or simply a staged abandonment of them and a move to higher ground inland.
We will all need to make sure of food supplies, agricultural land, energy supplies, access to materials for industry, disease control, national security, collective security arrangements, and social structures, because its going to be very difficult situation. The politics of this also needs to be looked at hard, as do the implications for the areas worst effected by the changes. What's hardest to actually predict is what the precise patterns are going to be, thats the killer, you may find that we end up freezing in Europe and Burning in America, or Washed away in the British Isles, while Italy becomes a desert, or the other way around.
No one is quite sure, other than to say that the destabilizing climate is going to result in a world where the weather patterns, shorelines, and basic climatology are radically different than they are now. What precisely it means for each individual country is going to be harder to predict until very clear climate change is upon us. Thats an unnerving aspect of it.
The single biggest initial problem is going to be famine as agriculture will inevitably be disrupted on a global scale, and massive, massive economic and political dislocation, as the panic sets in once people realize its real. Then global despair when its realized that its irreversible. That may lead to some terrible things happening. It will take very strong leadership to get through it, if getting through it is possible, it may not be.
One way or another now, its my opinion that its going to happen on a serious scale, very probably in our lifetimes, if we are lucky we may have enough time to do something to at least survive it, if it happens quickly it won't make any difference, there won't be anything we can do, so there is little point worrying at this stage.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Er, I think we're in trouble.
Jester;1137051 wrote: A rethink to what?
We have nuclear energy thats the cheapest cleanest form that gives us enougg power-
Can we trust every country with the abilty to use it for energy only is the question.
We are limited in how we can move forward or we risk the security of our own countrymen. That has to be considered.
A rethink as to the US policy to ignore Kyoto
A rethink to your expressed views that global warming is a conspiracy by Al Gore
A rethink to the global strategy involving the use of fossil fuels for primary energy needs and the continuing use of unlimited energy supplies without considering the consequences.
US national security is not the prime concern - the future of the planet is more important. "I don't believe it" is not enough - the consequences if you are wrong are too horrendous to be acceptable.
We have nuclear energy thats the cheapest cleanest form that gives us enougg power-
Can we trust every country with the abilty to use it for energy only is the question.
We are limited in how we can move forward or we risk the security of our own countrymen. That has to be considered.
A rethink as to the US policy to ignore Kyoto
A rethink to your expressed views that global warming is a conspiracy by Al Gore
A rethink to the global strategy involving the use of fossil fuels for primary energy needs and the continuing use of unlimited energy supplies without considering the consequences.
US national security is not the prime concern - the future of the planet is more important. "I don't believe it" is not enough - the consequences if you are wrong are too horrendous to be acceptable.