Obama Administration Takes Charge of GM

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:40 pm

General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner is stepping down immediately, auto industry and White House sources told FOX Business on Sunday. He is being succeeded by the company’s Chief Operating Officer, Fritz Henderson.

GM declined to comment on the report.

A White House official told FOX Business that Wagoner was asked by the Administration to step down as a precondition for the company to continue to get help with its restructuring.

The rest of the story:

GM CEO Wagoner to Step Down; Auto-Plan Details Emerge - FOXBusiness.com

I pinched myself and I'm not having a bad dream...this is a real nightmare.:-5

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:59 am

Clint;1165921 wrote: General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner is stepping down immediately, auto industry and White House sources told FOX Business on Sunday. He is being succeeded by the company’s Chief Operating Officer, Fritz Henderson.

GM declined to comment on the report.

A White House official told FOX Business that Wagoner was asked by the Administration to step down as a precondition for the company to continue to get help with its restructuring.

The rest of the story:

GM CEO Wagoner to Step Down; Auto-Plan Details Emerge - FOXBusiness.com

I pinched myself and I'm not having a bad dream...this is a real nightmare.:-5

Not yet you're not-you're only dozing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/18/busin ... 18car.html

The cars GM makes in europe and korea are actually pretty good-my wife drives a korean made chevrolet, dirt cheap to buy cos it's seen as a really naff make.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:41 am

Here we go. Expect the Cadillac Malia or the Chevy Sasha rolling out soon. :yh_sigh

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:33 am

You play with the devil and you likely get burned.

But on the other hand, GM and the others and their unions have ignored the coming crisis for several decades, the current state of the economy was only the last straw.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:45 am

I suggest you read "The Reckoning" if you want a good handle on the history of the American and Japanese motor industries.

I might also suggest that you have a chat with the Germans and Japanese about how to redevelop the auto-industry, they have a lot of experience with that, considering the base they started from in 1945. You guys were involved in that and helped them then after the defeat, so they owe you some help now, check them out.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:52 am

Galbally;1165999 wrote: I suggest you read "The Reckoning" if you want a good handle on the history of the American and Japanese motor industries.

I might also suggest that you have a chat with the Germans and Japanese about how to redevelop the auto-industry, they have a lot of experience with that, considering the base they started from in 1945. You guys were involved in that and helped them then after the defeat, so they owe you some help now, check them out.

The car companies suffer from the old American arrogance and "I can have it all mentality." When American figured out that Japanese cars were no longer garbage and started buying them in droves, it should have been the clue. And the unions never looked to the future to understand how all the goodies they bargained for were to be paid for. :-5

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:55 am

Am I the only one bothered by President Obama and his band of carreer polititians firing heads of industry as if they know the buisness better?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:32 am

Clint;1166018 wrote: Am I the only one bothered by President Obama and his band of carreer polititians firing heads of industry as if they know the buisness better?

Well have they not demonstrated that they actually don't know their industry by letting their companies get to this point in the first place? They're talking about doing the same again here, using taxpayers money to keep making cars nobody wants to buy. Silly is not an afequate description somehow.

Same with the bankers, they've hardly proved their competence, nor have the politicians come to that.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:05 am

Scrat;1166035 wrote: And the heads of certain industries know what they are doing? Look where they are at now. It's time for heads to roll here, if the people concerned made good decisions the automotive industry and the banking industry would be better off today wouldn't they?

What have Americas best and brightest achieved for us? How many freaking times has GM been bailed out? I've been working in American industry my whole life. Raytheon, Trane, Carrier, CEECO and I have to say the American corporate management culture is a horrible burden.

The captains of industry don't need their asses kissed anymore, the need them kicked.

Amazing uh? Suddenly all the wealth, technology, improvements in health and standard of living (not to mention millions of jobs) don't mean a thing and apparently were created by a bunch of incompetenrt people.

All those of you who are giving up on capitalism and apparently want to see government run more and more in the guise of spreading the wealth are certainly free to move to France or Italy or even Sweden where you will no doubt be better cared for and less abused. And hey, even health care is "free."

The captains of industry may be horrible people at times and even dumb (like the rest of us), but have you considered where America would be without those kinds of people?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:18 am

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1166153 wrote: Amazing uh? Suddenly all the wealth, technology, improvements in health and standard of living (not to mention millions of jobs) don't mean a thing and apparently were created by a bunch of incompetenrt people.

All those of you who are giving up on capitalism and apparently want to see government run more and more in the guise of spreading the wealth are certainly free to move to France or Italy or even Sweden where you will no doubt be better cared for and less abused. And hey, even health care is "free."

The captains of industry may be horrible people at times and even dumb (like the rest of us), but have you considered where America would be without those kinds of people?

It wasn't created by these people that's for sure.

The Changing Face of American Innovation - Executive Education Program - Harvard Business School

Most innovation and new industries come from small to medium businesses. Just look at the IT industry and how all today's big players actually got started. If anything big companies try to stifle competition not encourage it. Look at microsoft once a small company now spending money and resources trying to curb fair competition rather than win by innovation. Your car companies seem to have done the same, bleating about unfair competition rather than beating it with better products.

France, sweden and italy have capitalist economies not socialist ones-although the welfare systems might be on a socialist basis.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... rid-market

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:13 pm

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1166002 wrote: The car companies suffer from the old American arrogance and "I can have it all mentality." When American figured out that Japanese cars were no longer garbage and started buying them in droves, it should have been the clue. And the unions never looked to the future to understand how all the goodies they bargained for were to be paid for. :-5

Yes, and of course the management as well. I know the story well, my dad used to work in the British Car industry, where the union leaders were more interested in getting elected as Union Leaders than the long term interest of the industry, and the bosses were far far more interested in the cars they drove themselves (Rollers, Jags) than the cars their companies actually built. That's why there isn't much of a British Car industry anymore. Again, go talk to the Germans and the Japanese, they seemed to know what they were doing until this "sucker went down" as Georgie Boy so eloquently put it.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:18 pm

Clint;1166018 wrote: Am I the only one bothered by President Obama and his band of carreer polititians firing heads of industry as if they know the buisness better?

Well he could always just not give them any more pubic money to bail out their private arses instead.

I suppose they would claim that the industry needs there "expertise" hmmnnn, I am not so sure about that. :-6

I don't know why these people are still in jobs actually, nor the people in Wall Street, I thought you had a market labour system, where working hard and being smart were rewarded with lovely dosh, but where failure was rewarded with the sack, but that must be only for the little people then.

You actually seem to have quite a lot of government internventionalist socialism really, but it only applies to people who earn over about 10,000,000 dollars, funny system really, but there you go.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:27 pm

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1166153 wrote: Amazing uh? Suddenly all the wealth, technology, improvements in health and standard of living (not to mention millions of jobs) don't mean a thing and apparently were created by a bunch of incompetenrt people.

All those of you who are giving up on capitalism and apparently want to see government run more and more in the guise of spreading the wealth are certainly free to move to France or Italy or even Sweden where you will no doubt be better cared for and less abused. And hey, even health care is "free."

The captains of industry may be horrible people at times and even dumb (like the rest of us), but have you considered where America would be without those kinds of people?

I admire good business people and "captains of industry" as you call them, the type of men who shepard their companies and make them great, these people are not to be confused with career financial people, or bean counters who are just in it to maximize short-term shareholder interests, even if in the process they destroy the basic rational of the company, check out Boeings seeming inability to make new planes anymore as the management have been far more interested in making money on financial deals in recent years and you can see where the rot has come from. Its all about money, and its primacy over everything else now, these people simply no longer seem to give a sh*t anymore as long as they get paid, and paid a lot.

Its scientists and engineers that develop things, not venture capitalists, the good capitalists just know a good idea when they see one, and are able to capitalize on it by financing it and then taking profit over the long term, it used to work until Capitalism got so disassociated with reality that they started inventing fantasy things to invest in and fantasy situations like drug-addict ex-cons were going to pay their mortagages every month.

I am all for Capitalism, but it has to be tempered with some sort of decency, and common sense or else its just as useless as communism and just as non-sensical, which is a painful lesson we are all about to learn. We need to get back to some fundamental principals of valuation, and also remembering why things such as honour, decency, trust, loyalty, temperance, etc are very important in life.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:43 pm

Clint;1166018 wrote: Am I the only one bothered by President Obama and his band of carreer polititians firing heads of industry as if they know the buisness better?Right here! *waves*

politicians and lawyers are in the business of restricting - of saying no. They are the antithesis of innovation.

Galbally;1166387 wrote: I am all for Capitalism, but it has to be tempered with some sort of decency, and common sense or else its just as useless as communism and just as non-sensical, [...]
It's supposed to be tempered with the fire of failure, but Washinton has pulled them out too soon.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:06 pm

Clint;1166018 wrote: Am I the only one bothered by President Obama and his band of carreer polititians firing heads of industry as if they know the buisness better?

It was a condition, not a directive. He didnt have to step down. Guys got to do his job or he gets canned. He wasnt getting canned so Obama took some initiative. So what ?

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:17 pm

Nomad;1166546 wrote: It was a condition, not a directive. He didnt have to step down. Guys got to do his job or he gets canned. He wasnt getting canned so Obama took some initiative. So what ?

It’s the government with no constitutional authority messing around in business. Not only that, the government doesn’t know anything about making a profit. If GM and Chrysler can't make it let them declare bankruptcy...it wouldn't be over...they would come back stronger than ever. This will result in bigger monsters that won't give the consumer what they want dooming them to repeat the cycle.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:14 pm

Everybody has an opinion. Everyone out there thinks they know exactly whats going on and just how to fix it.

Do this, dont do that or the whole country will collapse. A few months ago Jester or maybe it was his son said there were going to be race wars. Others are quoting Revelations. Some want to dig a bunker and stock pile canned goods.

In the end even if the economy comes back and housing is back on track, people are working again theres still going to be people here screaming about how the world is melting.

Its getting to sound like a broken record. Your rights are being stomped on but the Patriot Act was a good thing. Its all bias and conditioning. No one wants to think outside the box.

People just keep spouting what they always do and they hang onto the only thing they know like a child would a teddy bear.

The Constitution doesnt mean anything anymore but the other side was saying the same about Bush when he bulldozed his way into Iraq.

I was listening to Lardbaugh today and he was whining as usual about the catastrophy that awaits us all you mark his words. He said our freedoms were in jeapordy and Obama wants sacrifice, he wants America to sacrifice everything right into Socialism then he corrected himself and said military sacrifice was ok though then went on with his tirade.

Bottom line, send em off to war but by God dont you take my money.

This that or the other..........

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:54 pm

Accountable;1166542 wrote: Right here! *waves*

politicians and lawyers are in the business of restricting - of saying no. They are the antithesis of innovation.

It's supposed to be tempered with the fire of failure, but Washinton has pulled them out too soon.

I agree. Its time to set some examples.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:58 pm

Clint;1166577 wrote: It’s the government with no constitutional authority messing around in business. Not only that, the government doesn’t know anything about making a profit. If GM and Chrysler can't make it let them declare bankruptcy...it wouldn't be over...they would come back stronger than ever. This will result in bigger monsters that won't give the consumer what they want dooming them to repeat the cycle.

Clint, if the taxpayer is putting money directly into these buisnesses, then its incumbent upon the government to make sure that the management of the private company don't waste your money in the same way they have wasted their own money. Would you rather just write them a blank cheque and let them away at it?

I am with accountable, if they want a free market with no government intervention, then let them have that, in other words, not a red cent. However, don't kid yourself that there won't be consequences from GM or Chrysler declaring bankruptcy, still, they put themselves in that position unfortunately.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:17 am

Nomad;1166583 wrote: Everybody has an opinion. Everyone out there thinks they know exactly whats going on and just how to fix it.

Do this, dont do that or the whole country will collapse. A few months ago Jester or maybe it was his son said there were going to be race wars. Others are quoting Revelations. Some want to dig a bunker and stock pile canned goods.

In the end even if the economy comes back and housing is back on track, people are working again theres still going to be people here screaming about how the world is melting.

Its getting to sound like a broken record. Your rights are being stomped on but the Patriot Act was a good thing. Its all bias and conditioning. No one wants to think outside the box.

People just keep spouting what they always do and they hang onto the only thing they know like a child would a teddy bear.

The Constitution doesnt mean anything anymore but the other side was saying the same about Bush when he bulldozed his way into Iraq.

I was listening to Lardbaugh today and he was whining as usual about the catastrophy that awaits us all you mark his words. He said our freedoms were in jeapordy and Obama wants sacrifice, he wants America to sacrifice everything right into Socialism then he corrected himself and said military sacrifice was ok though then went on with his tirade.

Bottom line, send em off to war but by God dont you take my money.

This that or the other..........

Your points are well made Nomad. The principal issue is this, that the lever of debt and paper money has been turned into a method of social tyranny and it fundamentally undermines the fabric of your Republic that the entire economic and social agenda is set to serve the interests of big business and finance. The question has yet to be asked, why is it that so many companies have engaged in what can only be described as "economic treason" and yet the Government is unwilling to deal with them, and instead is prepared to support them with public money?

The answer is that its obvious that the institutions of the Republic are not capable of dealing with these powerful companies and interests, which have lodged themselves so far into the political system that they more or less set the agenda. No matter who is elected to power by the people, thats a sobering reality.

Iraq was a corporate war, fought on the basis that it was to protect the "liberties" of US citizens from a non-existent Iraqi "threat". Islamic terrorism and Al Queda were and are the real threat (as ironically is the country that was actually developing WMDs all along, Iran), not Saddam Hussien's Baath party. Britain for some reason decided to get involved in it, and the political consequences for Britain are yet to unravel.

My general view would be that the founding fathers created an excellent political system, in recent times it has become somewhat undermined by the corrosive influence of money on the system, and the adolescent ultra-partisan attitude of the main political parties in terms of being more interested in endlessly arguing these sterile US political debates you seem to have, instead of governing the country in the best interests of the citizens.

The people in positions of power and privildge (across politics, business, the law, the churches, and the media) need to relearn the concept of responsibility, the party is well and truly over; and many of the follies of recent times can simply no longer be afforded by either yourselves or any other western country, we need to get serious about life again, and remember that we have no divine right to wealth, power, or the ability to set our own agenda, and that if we don't wake up, we will lose all of those things, most assuredly.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:00 am

Nomad;1166583 wrote: [...]

Its getting to sound like a broken record. Your rights are being stomped on but the Patriot Act was a good thing. Its all bias and conditioning. No one wants to think outside the box.

People just keep spouting what they always do and they hang onto the only thing they know like a child would a teddy bear.

The Constitution doesnt mean anything anymore but the other side was saying the same about Bush when he bulldozed his way into Iraq.

[...]
Agreed to a point. The Patriot Act isn't a "was," it's an "is," and is still a travesty. The child this time is Washington, don't you see that? They are trying to reinflate the bubble that they created under Clinton and Bush. They see the money-tit being yanked from their mouths and it scares them to death.

These people who are ignoring the Constitution are the same people who ignored it before. Nothing's changed in Washington.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:19 am

Nomad;1166583 wrote: Everybody has an opinion. Everyone out there thinks they know exactly whats going on and just how to fix it.

Do this, dont do that or the whole country will collapse. A few months ago Jester or maybe it was his son said there were going to be race wars. Others are quoting Revelations. Some want to dig a bunker and stock pile canned goods.

In the end even if the economy comes back and housing is back on track, people are working again theres still going to be people here screaming about how the world is melting.

Its getting to sound like a broken record. Your rights are being stomped on but the Patriot Act was a good thing. Its all bias and conditioning. No one wants to think outside the box.

People just keep spouting what they always do and they hang onto the only thing they know like a child would a teddy bear.

The Constitution doesnt mean anything anymore but the other side was saying the same about Bush when he bulldozed his way into Iraq.

I was listening to Lardbaugh today and he was whining as usual about the catastrophy that awaits us all you mark his words. He said our freedoms were in jeapordy and Obama wants sacrifice, he wants America to sacrifice everything right into Socialism then he corrected himself and said military sacrifice was ok though then went on with his tirade.

Bottom line, send em off to war but by God dont you take my money.

This that or the other..........

To some extent I also agree. I think it’s important to remember that expressing our diverse and sometimes extreme points of view have kept us from falling off one extreme end or the other. Yes, it goes in circles but sometimes, while in the circle searching, someone finds a jewel that we all appreciate.

Your comment about no one caring about the Constitution anymore is particularly disturbing to me. The Constitution is the only means by which the people of this country are able to speak clearly and with authority to their government. Without it we are doomed to react to whatever popular opinion is ruling the day. I have taken an oath to uphold the Constitution no less than five times in my life. I personally take it very seriously. It saddens me to realize it is being discarded by those who have sworn to uphold it.

To me this isn’t about money. It is about the limits of power. Our government is overstepping big time. You say it overstepped with war and you may be right. I have a different opinion and I reserve the right to express that opinion. Our discussions can be frustrating but if we didn’t have them we would live in vacuums where our thoughts would never be challenged. We would go in circles in our own minds until we built a case and the courage to do something stupid.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:56 pm

Scrat;1166701 wrote: We should just let the companies that were managed into the ground cover their own graves as the rules of a market economy says they should. I think that is truely the answer to our problems.

I agree. We are simply prolonging the inevitable and making the problem worse by increasing our debt to prop them up for a while.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:16 am

curious to see what you think of this

Who Killed The Electric Car - Transport

Who Killed the Electric Car? - Channel 4

Watched the documentary last night-I had no idea they actually produced and sold such a car.

If for once you will learn anything from the UK experience it should be DO NOT DO THIS. Let them fold, the long term pain is so much worse. This is not socialism it's corporatism. The foreign bits of GM and ford would probably survive it's the American parts that are in deep ****. All you're doing is let them dig the hole deeper.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:58 am

It would be amusing to go back and find videos of congressmen complaining of corporate welfare. I wonder if good ol' Barney Frank ever mentioned it. :yh_loser

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:28 pm

Clint;1166688 wrote:

Your comment about no one caring about the Constitution anymore is particularly disturbing to me. The Constitution is the only means by which the people of this country are able to speak clearly and with authority to their government. Without it we are doomed to react to whatever popular opinion is ruling the day. I have taken an oath to uphold the Constitution no less than five times in my life. I personally take it very seriously. It saddens me to realize it is being discarded by those who have sworn to uphold it.

What I meant is were split down the middle. The Patriot Act was the right thing to many and if you werent for it you were a limp wristed communist. Might as well invite the terrorists in for tea.

Now Obama is doing some unconventional things and the other side is screaming Jesus is coming.

The checks and balances are good but its also what makes the government a train loaded with lead climbing a mountain.

Dr Gallbladder; My general view would be that the founding fathers created an excellent political system, in recent times it has become somewhat undermined by the corrosive influence of money on the system, and the adolescent ultra-partisan attitude of the main political parties in terms of being more interested in endlessly arguing these sterile US political debates you seem to have, instead of governing the country in the best interests of the citizens.

Ive seen your government in action on BBC (not yours per say but youre so close)

Its fairly amusing watching heads of state belittle eachother with courtesy yet stern overtones of ridicule !

What did happen at Machu Picchu anyway ???

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:07 am

Nomad;1167772 wrote: What I meant is were split down the middle. The Patriot Act was the right thing to many and if you werent for it you were a limp wristed communist. Might as well invite the terrorists in for tea.

Now Obama is doing some unconventional things and the other side is screaming Jesus is coming.

The checks and balances are good but its also what makes the government a train loaded with lead climbing a mountain.

Ive seen your government in action on BBC (not yours per say but youre so close)

Its fairly amusing watching heads of state belittle eachother with courtesy yet stern overtones of ridicule !

What did happen at Machu Picchu anyway ???

Yes, the spectacle of them all shouting at each other in the Houses of Commons probably seems funny, its a ritualistic thing really; but when the British Government has a large majority in Parliament, it can more or less rule by dictat, whereas you constantly seem to have different segments of the government ruled by the different parties because people want the cheques and balances, which of course I understand, but it does seem to make getting hard and radical decisions through very, very difficult.

My own country tends to have coalition governments, and we have a concensus style political arrangement at the moment, which means its taking them a long time to come up with an adequate repsonse to what is happening, but me thinks that will all change quite radically after the next election.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:14 am

posted by nomad

Ive seen your government in action on BBC (not yours per say but youre so close)

Its fairly amusing watching heads of state belittle eachother with courtesy yet stern overtones of ridicule !

What did happen at Machu Picchu anyway ???

There's some wonderful traditions there though. When it was rebuilt after ww2 tyhe kept the design whereby opposing speakers have to stand up with their supporters behind them facing their opposition. The front rows are two sword lengths apart and there are not enough seats for all the mp's when on occasion all are in attendance. Churchill ( I think it was) had it redone that way deliberately so that MP's would always have a sense they were there temporarily and had no right to a seat. May be apocryphal but I like the idea.

but when the British Government has a large majority in Parliament, it can more or less rule by dictat,

Which is very bad for dempcracy. Power rests with parliament all they have to do is vote down a bill.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:24 am

Nomad;1167772 wrote: The checks and balances are good but its also what makes the government a train loaded with lead climbing a mountain.Which is as it should be. We got in this mess because gov't jettisoned too much of that lead and handed shitloads of taxpayer money to businessmen who had no right or claim to it, then passed a thousand-page law without a clue what was in it.

gmc;1167792 wrote: posted by nomad

There's some wonderful traditions there though. When it was rebuilt after ww2 tyhe kept the design whereby opposing speakers have to stand up with their supporters behind them facing their opposition. The front rows are two sword lengths apart and there are not enough seats for all the mp's when on occasion all are in attendance. Churchill ( I think it was) had it redone that way deliberately so that MP's would always have a sense they were there temporarily and had no right to a seat. May be apocryphal but I like the idea. .I like that, idea too. Even better if they were those metal folding chairs churches use for overflow.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:33 am

Clint;1165921 wrote: General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner is stepping down immediately, auto industry and White House sources told FOX Business on Sunday. He is being succeeded by the company’s Chief Operating Officer, Fritz Henderson.

GM declined to comment on the report.

A White House official told FOX Business that Wagoner was asked by the Administration to step down as a precondition for the company to continue to get help with its restructuring.

The rest of the story:

GM CEO Wagoner to Step Down; Auto-Plan Details Emerge - FOXBusiness.com

I pinched myself and I'm not having a bad dream...this is a real nightmare.:-5I predict that Chairman Obama will show that he feels bad for kicking the CEO out, and in a sympathetic gesture will name Chevrolet's first really green vehicle in his honor:

The Chevy Volts-Wagoner

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:35 am

Galbally;1167776 wrote: the spectacle of them all shouting at each other in the Houses of Commons

They don't do it anything *like* as much since the HoC was televised.