Government warns that the BNP are a bigger threat than ever as elections loom

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:19 am

BNP is bigger threat than ever, Harman warns ahead of EU poll | Mail Online

Chezzie · Post by **Chezzie** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:23 am

oscar;1172949 wrote: BNP is bigger threat than ever, Harman warns ahead of EU poll | Mail Online

Is this the start of your campaign?:sneaky::wah:

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:25 am

Chezzie;1172956 wrote: Is this the start of your campaign?:sneaky::wah: They are saying the biggest threat is in the North West :sneaky::sneaky:

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:06 am

You will probably find that there is a big swing towards the BNP down in the SE as well ! This is what I have learnt from people I know who live down there. They say that so many people have studied details about BNP and their manifesto etc, and are feeling that the BNP seems to have more common sense than any other major party - that they are thinking more about our home-grown population and the mess that the labour party has got the country into, and seems unable to get Britain back again. Actually, I personally know several staunch Conservative voters who have said they will vote BNP if there is a candidate in their area - they feel that the Tories have become too weak, and they would not ever vote for Labour or Libs. They say they would like to give a chance to the BNP to try to sort things as they could not possibly cause more mess than the Labour govt. !!!! So it seems that the swing towards BNP is more country-wide than at first thought !

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:00 am

G#Gill;1172984 wrote: You will probably find that there is a big swing towards the BNP down in the SE as well ! This is what I have learnt from people I know who live down there. They say that so many people have studied details about BNP and their manifesto etc, and are feeling that the BNP seems to have more common sense than any other major party - that they are thinking more about our home-grown population and the mess that the labour party has got the country into, and seems unable to get Britain back again. Actually, I personally know several staunch Conservative voters who have said they will vote BNP if there is a candidate in their area - they feel that the Tories have become too weak, and they would not ever vote for Labour or Libs. They say they would like to give a chance to the BNP to try to sort things as they could not possibly cause more mess than the Labour govt. !!!! So it seems that the swing towards BNP is more country-wide than at first thought ! I throughly agree with you Gill. I have to go to work but will get back to you as your post is very interesting and spot on. I can tell you more about BNP policies if your interested?

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:45 am

I will be going politically active again, to oppose them.

Vesuvius · Post by **Vesuvius** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:01 am

Interesting post Oscar, and replies, as strangely enough I was speaking to a young lady 2 days back who said she would be voting for the BNP...

I was surprised because she is only 25 and I had imagined it would be the older voters more inclined to vote for them?

I have happily been cocooned in my own little universe thinking there would be no far Right or far Left or Far anything in good old UK...it seems I am wrong :-2 I rather thought we were a very equable country who would baulk at anything which smacks of imbalance.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:03 pm

People are getting scared. Makes the political extremes more popular. :-1

Extremes mean horror. Communism is an extreme, Fascism is an extreme. I believe the BNP to be Fascist and wouldn't touch them with a bargepole and certainly don't trust anything they say. But people have forgotten. We have been safe and secure so long....

Post by **Peter Lake** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:36 pm

Clodhopper;1173125 wrote: People are getting scared. Makes the political extremes more popular. :-1

Extremes mean horror. Communism is an extreme, Fascism is an extreme. I believe the BNP to be Fascist and wouldn't touch them with a bargepole and certainly don't trust anything they say. But people have forgotten. We have been safe and secure so long.... Good evening Clodhopper,

I don't agree so much that people are getting scared, I tend to think more as desperate.

The human rights bill has seen the criminal served and protected more than the victem. We see police getting away with all kinds. We see children now totally un-accountable to any form of authority including parents. We see a nation of scroungers who have never worked in their lives bleeding the country dry. We see the most dire crimes treated lightly by the courts and violent people being released early due to lack of prisons. We see prisoners rewarded with gyms, computers and play-stations. We see immigration at proportions that we will not be able to pay for in years to come.

People are not so much becoming racist, fascist or extreme, they are looking for an alternative. This government just can not trundle along the way it has systematically destroying everything British. Most people of my age know the alternative main parties are no different.

Vesuvius · Post by **Vesuvius** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:28 pm

Yes, Peter, you are right, people are looking for an alternative. Very much so..the disintegration of our society is at its peak, and I cannot comprehend how or why it has been allowed to go this far.

I personally dread any extremist group coming to power, but there has to be changes and fast....and I have no idea how to implement these. Nor does anyone else which is probably why they are looking at the BNP for answers.

Post by **Peter Lake** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:45 pm

Vesuvius;1173188 wrote: Yes, Peter, you are right, people are looking for an alternative. Very much so..the disintegration of our society is at its peak, and I cannot comprehend how or why it has been allowed to go this far.

I personally dread any extremist group coming to power, but there has to be changes and fast....and I have no idea how to implement these. Nor does anyone else which is probably why they are looking at the BNP for answers. Good Evening Vesuvius.

I think we may be seeing a revolution as such in these times. Not in as much as anarchy in the streets but certainly in the polling booths. As you say, there has to be changes and fast but the country no longer has the confidence in present government or alternative main stream parties to feel they will or can bring about those changes and quickly. One area that urgently needs a radical over-haul is the human rights acts. It is there to protect and needs to be kept to protect in such cases as people needing safety from a violent regime in their own country. Yet when these rights are abused daily by our criminals and also line the pockets of the human rights lawyers who feed off any case that comes to light, it has to end some-where.

We have a huge financial mess in this country that i can truely see going the way of Ireland where eventually benifit money will run out. The benifit system also needs a major over-haul where we have a generation who have never contributed a penny to this country yet our pensioners are having to sell their homes for care in their last years or pay their fuel bills.

Vesuvius · Post by **Vesuvius** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:04 pm

I thoroughly agree with your post Peter, excellent words and very much how I feel.

The Human Rights Act has been distorted to suit criminals and must be overhauled. Which Party has the guts to do this?

I also agree wholeheartedly that Pensioners are truly suffering in today's economy...and that handouts are being given willy nilly to those who do not deserve it. The 80 stone family recently in the news comes to mind.

I believe this is all part of a control system to dis-enable people, to make them as sheep, doing what they are told and I think this has been subversibly going on now for many years. Giving people money they have not earned or do not deserve is in fact controlling them.

We have taken our education system and made it the laughing stock of Europe, ditto the once lauded NHS. Thanks to the dreaded PC lobby we cannot even take photos of loved ones in school plays, and a thousand other such nonsences to tie us up and enfeeble us.

We have gangs of youths age around 12 roaming the streets, binge drinking (when was the last time you went into town on a weekend night)? There is no discipline, or self discipline, no real punishement for criminals, no new prisons being constructed and ..........I could go on, but it is very depressing, and soul destroying.

I love this country of mine and I dearly want to see her rise from the ashes of self neglect.

Post by **Peter Lake** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:50 pm

Vesuvius;1173196 wrote: I thoroughly agree with your post Peter, excellent words and very much how I feel.

The Human Rights Act has been distorted to suit criminals and must be overhauled. Which Party has the guts to do this?

I also agree wholeheartedly that Pensioners are truly suffering in today's economy...and that handouts are being given willy nilly to those who do not deserve it. The 80 stone family recently in the news comes to mind.

I believe this is all part of a control system to dis-enable people, to make them as sheep, doing what they are told and I think this has been subversibly going on now for many years. Giving people money they have not earned or do not deserve is in fact controlling them.

We have taken our education system and made it the laughing stock of Europe, ditto the once lauded NHS. Thanks to the dreaded PC lobby we cannot even take photos of loved ones in school plays, and a thousand other such nonsences to tie us up and enfeeble us.

We have gangs of youths age around 12 roaming the streets, binge drinking (when was the last time you went into town on a weekend night)? There is no discipline, or self discipline, no real punishement for criminals, no new prisons being constructed and ..........I could go on, but it is very depressing, and soul destroying.

I love this country of mine and I dearly want to see her rise from the ashes of self neglect. My sentiments exactly. I was appaled to read tonight that a school boy who shot a teacher between the eyes with a pellet gun in school has been given just 15 days suspension. The teacher was so traumatised, she is leaving for a new job. This is a typical example, protect the kid with the pellet gun and destroy the teachers life.

I think you are spot on about control. Benifit should always have been a safety net for times of hardship but we have a generation who use it as a way of life. People like this will continue to vote for the Party paying out the giro's without question for fear that an alternative Party will make them work or go without. Then nothing changes. If benifit is effected as it is in Ireland, I can see a rise in crime. We have become too commercialised especially in children and teenagers. If the benifit or the wages are not there, some, not all, but some will turn to crime. The more crime rises, the earlier convicted prisoners will have to be released in order to make room for the new generation of criminals.

It's well known that government's spin doctors smudge the crime figures and a recent report claimed that youth crime was the highest rise in most crimes. Yet now we are expected to take on ridiculous measures where if we see a crime in process, we are to TEXT :wah: our local bobby in the hope he will get back to us one day.

Any-one joining an alternative party right now is bound to be labelled fascist or racist but really what choice do people have to change the laws and change them quickly? Except for taking to the streets. Change comes through polling booths and it is when the electorate get in the privacy of that polling booth, that the main Parties fear the most. They know people have had enough, yet they don't listen to their country and their votors. If we do see a surge to the BNP, it is the main Parties faults. They have had their chances and let every one of us down in this country in one way or another.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:41 pm

Peter Lake;1173191 wrote: Good Evening Vesuvius.

I think we may be seeing a revolution as such in these times. Not in as much as anarchy in the streets but certainly in the polling booths. As you say, there has to be changes and fast but the country no longer has the confidence in present government or alternative main stream parties to feel they will or can bring about those changes and quickly. One area that urgently needs a radical over-haul is the human rights acts. It is there to protect and needs to be kept to protect in such cases as people needing safety from a violent regime in their own country. Yet when these rights are abused daily by our criminals and also line the pockets of the human rights lawyers who feed off any case that comes to light, it has to end some-where.

We have a huge financial mess in this country that i can truely see going the way of Ireland where eventually benifit money will run out. The benifit system also needs a major over-haul where we have a generation who have never contributed a penny to this country yet our pensioners are having to sell their homes for care in their last years or pay their fuel bills.

I would have thought opscar's experience with the police would have brought home to her the need for such things as the human rights act. The only way you can take our government to court is to go to the human rights court in Strasbourg. Do a little research and see what cases have been made successfully-everything from part time workers beingbtrated fairly to standard life and equitable life policy holder taking on the FSA for incompetence.

It's right wing Thatcherite economic policies kept on and carried to extreme with new labour that have made the current financial mess possible. If the BNP actually get anywhere it will tear this country apart. Thier constitutional policies will break up the union.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:47 am

I have no doubt that the real and lasting fallout of this current economic situation is going to be the political one, across Europe and the world. People are scared, confused, and angry and that's not just in the U.K.

To my mind what is happening is the inevitable consequence of living in a consumerist/celebrity fantasy world, we have been too comfortable, too pampered, and too self-indulgent for too long, and over the decades we have allowed our socities and their basic structure and value systems to become eroded for either easy money, political expediency, or some faddish notion about society. The Britain of 2009 is almost unrecognizable from the Britain of say 1960, the basic social fabric of that earlier time has been ripped up by mass immigration from Asia and Africa, by Thatcherism, by consumerism, by Americanization, and by the modern follies of new Labour. It is a difficult situation, but Britain has been through other, even darker times, and it will get through these ones, whether the UK will remain in the EU (or even remain as the "UK") is hard to tell now, but I don't doubt that very significant changes are on the way, most have been brewing for a long, long time.

People are now waking up and realizing that money, or the illusion of having personal wealth because your assets are supposedly worth a lot of paper money, doesn't solve life's essential problems, and a housing market with a government is not a nation; a shopping mall is not a forum, and commercial TV does not a good teacher of your children make. When you wake up one day and realize that the country you live in is not the one you thought you did; that you don't know what it stands for any more, and that you don't know who your neighbours are or what they believe in, thats when you know something has gone very wrong.

One of the remarkable things about what is happening in the credit crunch, is that most of the people responsible seem to have no concept that they should feel ashamed of what has happened, of what they allowed to happen, (or have any sense of responsibility in terms of what they did), there really seems to be very little sense of personal honour or integrity, or morality among those who manage our economic affairs; its all just about legality and getting paid or not getting paid. Politicians seem to be naive and slavish in relation to money people, and that is probably because modern Western politicans have just never had to deal with real problems like war, famine, or revolution and are essentially economic managers and see themselves in the same role as CEOs of companies, well they are learning that countries are not companies, and the public are not employees or simply units of economic production.

This is indicative of what's wrong, its a signal of our moral collpase and cowardice and our cultural and social degeneracy. This is why young people are so nihilistic, base, vulgar, materialistic, and violent, because we tolerate that behviour and those attitudes for an easy life, we tolerate everything as long as we are left alone, and we allow them to learn these vile lessons from TV, from us, the older people, and the street and each other, and we hold up our hands and say "there is nothing we can do, its progress". That is a lie, its not progress, its us abandoning our duty to teach them right from wrong, and punish them if they don't listen.

I do fear for the future for a lot of reasons, but at the same time, life has always been like this, we just forgot that in our delusional state of living for the past few decades. What's really at threat now is democracy, civil society, and the rule of law. Those things have become so undermined and people are so disillusioned that its becoming a very fertile space for demagogery and extremism, people who have no hope or are afraid will turn to extreme solutions for what they feel are extreme problems, and its a damning endictment of the people in the political establishment that they have been so blind for so long that they didn't realize what they were doing.

However, ordinary people must take a look at themselves, and their own apathy, ennui, and jaded belief that having more and more consumer products and nicer houses with more holidays was the road to happiness, (regardless of what is happening in the street outside, which most people now ignore). The truth is that our culture is degenerate, our societies are degenerate, our way of life is utterly selfish, commercialized, reductive, and decadent; and its so pervasive that most people don't seem to realize this any more. That there was a time when the raison detre for everything wasn't simply its "economic benefit", when social policy wasn't set by advertising executives and corportate marketeers, and it was understood that there are some things more important that being rich, famous, good looking, young, or important.

Its not too late to change these things, and these attitudes, while we still have so much to be thankful for, (and yes, we do have a lot to be thankful for, we are free people, living in free societies where we can speak our minds, that is our true and only really valuable birthright, the rest is just window-dressing). Its time for the general public and the body politic across all Western countries to get real, get honest, and reclaim what is central, important and valuable in our lives; and disregard the rest as just the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.

We have a clear choice now: to continue down this path of corporate economic wage-slavery, sacraficing ideals and values for more and more worthless and pointless luxuries or lying idle on State largesse, or to return the concept of being citizens of free societies relearning the value of self-reliance, self-restraint, discipline, and sometimes recognizing that we cannot retreat into little self-made prisons behind gates and trying to shut the world out while we wallow in our private worlds. If we want to have better lives and better societies, essentially, we will have to do something about it.

Vesuvius · Post by **Vesuvius** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:15 am

A brilliant post, Galbally, which I can add nothing to...you have said it all. As has Peter Lake also.

Hallo gmc, I agree with you too, but, it takes years and years to present a case to the Human Rights Committee, and then more years with which to obtain a judgement, this is why very few people actually go down that road.

Post by **Peter Lake** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:57 pm

gmc;1173373 wrote: I would have thought opscar's experience with the police would have brought home to her the need for such things as the human rights act. The only way you can take our government to court is to go to the human rights court in Strasbourg. Do a little research and see what cases have been made successfully-everything from part time workers beingbtrated fairly to standard life and equitable life policy holder taking on the FSA for incompetence.

It's right wing Thatcherite economic policies kept on and carried to extreme with new labour that have made the current financial mess possible. If the BNP actually get anywhere it will tear this country apart. Thier constitutional policies will break up the union. My wifes experience is a typical scenario of how that situation should never have got to the the point it did and has very little to do with human rights.

What the BNP want is more money invested into our police force even using the army here need be. Police would be strripped of these ridiculous government hard text book targets so they are manned enough to actually patrol and work the streets. If this had been in place 8 yrs ago when these yobs began to vandalise that war memorial and terroise the neighbours, we'd not have the Police bleating that they only had 6 units on for the whole county and it was grade C minor crime. Had this have been stamped on 8 years ago when it began and the most peristent made an advantage of, it would have acted as a deterent. It didn't because the kids got away with it time and tme again for 8 years until members of the public stepped in. She wasn't the first. If there was a system of policing based on common sense, you would not have had a plod ignore a 999 call for help, ignore the yobs and arrest the adult because it was an easy tick on her paperwork rather than arrest 25 screaming hoodies, all shouting 'shut up, I aint dun nuffin'.

Only real policing will reverse the ludicrous situation we are in now.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:33 am

Vesuvius;1173499 wrote: A brilliant post, Galbally, which I can add nothing to...you have said it all. As has Peter Lake also.

Hallo gmc, I agree with you too, but, it takes years and years to present a case to the Human Rights Committee, and then more years with which to obtain a judgement, this is why very few people actually go down that road.

Does highlight why we need something like that to curb arbitrary government power and hold them to account when they get things wrong and refuse to accept they have.

posted by peter lake

My wifes experience is a typical scenario of how that situation should never have got to the the point it did and has very little to do with human rights.

It's got everything to do with it and human rights and freedom from arbitrary arrest and justice is something that affects us all. I can't decide whether you are just being disingenuous or simply don't understand the connection.

She was rail-roaded by the police that's why we have an appeal system. That's why we have the jury system-it's intention is to prevent government being able to imprison anyone they like without a fair trial and both sides being heard in a dispassionate environment. It's why we have a system where the state has to prove someone guilty beyond reasonable doubt so that one man's accusation is not enough to get someone locked up. It's why we have a habeas corpus law it's why we do not allow people to be locked up without standing trial in a reasonable time. It was the UK that pioneered much of these things. All our civil liberties we take for granted arose from the need to curb the power of government. Those who want to pull those liberties back are usually the ones that see themselves as having the natural right to decide such things or who are incapable of understanding that one day it could be them. It wasn't the jews or the communist that Hitler imprisoned first it was the liberals in positions of power that could have stopped him. First ignore the law then overturn it. Hitler took to himself the power to imprison without trial. It's the first act of any would be dictator. Tony Blair tried it if you remember and a stopped-ironically by an unelected house of lords. He wouldn't have abused the power perhaps but its a fairly safe bet the BNP would given a chance to do so.

We do have to rethink the way we police- new labour have tended to try and control everything centrally-it doesn't work. setting target and insisting on reports is how a bureaucracy tries to control but new labour make reporting the purpose of policing not a management tool. It's called goal displacement it's a classic feature when organisation leadership has forgotten what their organisation is supposed to do.

posted by peter lake

What the BNP want is more money invested into our police force even using the army here need be.

The last time the army was on the streets in the mainland UK for fear of rioting was in the 1930's. Britain has always maintained a small army at home in peacetime you do NOT allow any government the notion that it should be able to use troops against it's own people. Any political party that can even suggest it has my utter contempt. Our police are unarmed so they would not be perceived as an instrument of repression and could not be used as such. It is a concept that has served us well.

The British rejected fascism before world war two, it is disappointing to see it still around. What the BNP does is pick up, on and play up people's very real fears and disappointment at the failures of the mainstream political parties but their solution is a police state where concerns about human rights are ignored and people get arrested for daring to speak put or bully boys are used to intimidate

Hitler was appealing to begin with-so was Mussolini, people don't vote for police states they wake up one day and realise what they have ended up with.

The irony is it wasn't the wishy washy liberals or the parties of the left that created the present problems with immigration it was those who held on to the citizens of the empire and the motherland notions that did it. Now the same twits want to make Britain great again standing alone with no allies and forgetting we are a trading nation incapable of understanding we trade mostly with europe. They might not need us but we do them. Have you any concept of the unemployment that would result if we pull out of the EU? The notion that we can renegotiate more favourable terms doesn't stand up to more than a few minutes thought.

If the BNP get anywhere in England it is the end of the united kingdom as a viable economy or indeed as a united kingdom. Their constitutional policies suck. Scotland would vote wholesale to leave.-we never had a referendum to join it in the first place.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:02 am

My wifes experience is a typical scenario of how that situation should never have got to the the point it did and has very little to do with human rights.

gmc has already said it, but it's so important I'm re-emphasising it on its own:

Oscar's case is at the absolute heart of human rights. Her case is exactly what human rights are about: the police were not in the end able to get away with a miscarriage of justice.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:56 am

Clodhopper;1174467 wrote: gmc has already said it, but it's so important I'm re-emphasising it on its own:

Oscar's case is at the absolute heart of human rights. Her case is exactly what human rights are about: the police were not in the end able to get away with a miscarriage of justice.
gmc talks talks of why we have appeals and Jury's and the fact that we can not be found guilty based on some-one's say so.

In my case, I never denied throwing the yobs bike across the road. In interview under caution, it was established by my lawyer that police had not only failed to photograph the bike or obtain a reciept for the damage the yob claimed but they had even failed to view the bike. All they had was the yobs say so. I was charged with criminal damage. Under cross examination in court, the yob admited they were performing 'star jumps' on the bike when i caught them. The yob admited that he had no reciept for proof of damage and claimed his father had repaired the bike. His father was not there to give any evidence. The yob went on to say that he could not prove that the brake cable had snapped while they were doing the star jumps or weather it occurred when i threw it. So..... there was doubt.

In any case where there is doubt and no proof, 'ie, a repair reciept, the Judge should return a not guilty verdict. My judge found me guilty. However, by then the whole case had become so political, i'm in no doubt as to why he over-ruled my lawyers plea that there was doubt and sloppy police work in failing to view the bike or photograph it.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:24 am

I don't agree so much that people are getting scared, I tend to think more as desperate.

The human rights bill has seen the criminal served and protected more than the victem. We see police getting away with all kinds. We see children now totally un-accountable to any form of authority including parents. We see a nation of scroungers who have never worked in their lives bleeding the country dry. We see the most dire crimes treated lightly by the courts and violent people being released early due to lack of prisons. We see prisoners rewarded with gyms, computers and play-stations. We see immigration at proportions that we will not be able to pay for in years to come.

People are not so much becoming racist, fascist or extreme, they are looking for an alternative. This government just can not trundle along the way it has systematically destroying everything British. Most people of my age know the alternative main parties are no different.

Got a bit distracted with other posts and forgot your original one, Peter!

In general I'd agree with what you are saying. (Though of course I'd nitpick on a good deal of the detail) I think you describe the reasons a party like the BNP, offering easy (too easy...) answers has such appeal at this time. Nick Griffin is a definite link with the National Front/Fascist roots of the BNP.

Most of the people who joined the Nazi party in the 1920's thought that, with perhaps one or two minor exceptions, Hitler offered sensible, clearcut plans that would sort out the mess Germany was in. And look where that led them.

Hitler was a Fascist. Nick Griffin is a Fascist. I do not want him as Prime Minister any more than I would want Hitler. I'm surprised you do.

If people join a Fascist Party and support Fascist policies they are becoming Fascists, whether they know it or not. And that is their tragedy. Next thing they wake up and find they are responsible for a Holocaust and say, "Oh, but I never supported THAT! And in many, perhaps most, cases they didn't.

But by supporting a Fascist Party they helped to cause it to happen. They share the responsibility. You and Julie are joining a Fascist Party, whether you know it or not.

Look at what I'm posting about the article Oscar gave me as an example of the sort of good the BNP were doing. It is turning out to be not at all as they are claiming. Nor is the "Law" one pantoandy posted. No doubt we will find some cases where the BNP has done something good for the community, but it doesn't seem to be these cases.

I believe they are trying to con us, playing on our fears and offering over-simple solutions that will destoy the United Kingdom and cause desperate damage to England.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:31 am

Clodhopper;1174555 wrote: Got a bit distracted with other posts and forgot your original one, Peter!

In general I'd agree with what you are saying. (Though of course I'd nitpick on a good deal of the detail) I think you describe the reasons a party like the BNP, offering easy (too easy...) answers has such appeal at this time. Nick Griffin is a definite link with the National Front/Fascist roots of the BNP.

Most of the people who joined the Nazi party in the 1920's thought that, with perhaps one or two minor exceptions, Hitler offered sensible, clearcut plans that would sort out the mess Germany was in. And look where that led them.

Hitler was a Fascist. Nick Griffin is a Fascist. I do not want him as Prime Minister any more than I would want Hitler. I'm surprised you do.

If people join a Fascist Party and support Fascist policies they are becoming Fascists, whether they know it or not. And that is their tragedy. Next thing they wake up and find they are responsible for a Holocaust and say, "Oh, but I never supported THAT! And in many, perhaps most, cases they didn't.

But by supporting a Fascist Party they helped to cause it to happen. They share the responsibility. You and Julie are joining a Fascist Party, whether you know it or not.

Look at what I'm posting about the article Oscar gave me as an example of the sort of good the BNP were doing. It is turning out to be not at all as they are claiming. Nor is the "Law" one pantoandy posted. No doubt we will find some cases where the BNP has done something good for the community, but it doesn't seem to be these cases.

I believe they are trying to con us, playing on our fears and offering over-simple solutions that will destoy the United Kingdom and cause desperate damage to England. Pete is not here to reply right now so i will jump in on his behalf for the moment.

Whooa...... where did Pete ever say in any post or any thread that HE is joining the BNP or want Nick griffin as PM? He hasn't. he has sinply pointed out that people are looking for an alternative.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:49 am

Whooa...... where did Pete ever say in any post or any thread that HE is joining the BNP or want Nick griffin as PM? He hasn't. he has sinply pointed out that people are looking for an alternative.

Okay. What I said still applies to you though. And I'm certainly concerned that he's getting sucked in.

There's starting to be quite a backlog of questions to keep you occupied!;)

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:53 am

Clodhopper;1174585 wrote: Okay. What I said still applies to you though. And I'm certainly concerned that he's getting sucked in.

There's starting to be quite a backlog of questions to keep you occupied!;) Blimey..... get sucked in????? That's a bit of an insult to Mr O don't you think?

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:06 am

Clods, so tell me what has the government done, that has not reduced most peoples' circumstances, or the other major parties are going to do if they win the next election, that will drag Britain from the midden of government corruption !

Yes people desperately want an alternative, and it aint any of the existing 3 major parties, mainly because all three are now so similar that none of them are different enough for people to notice any change ! All grey suits, both men and women, ums and ers and twiddling thumbs and waffle. Making noises but saying nothing ! Doing nothing except making sure they are all financially secure and to hell with the proletariat !

I swore I would not get involved in politics on FG :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

Post by **pantoandy** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:01 am

hello again happy easter from the grumps

the mainstream parties are running scared from the bnp

the people are turning towards the bnp because they have had enough of the lies enough of the illegal immigrats enough of the crime enough of poverty and the recession enough of the crumbling schools dirty hospitals etc etc need i say more ?

i have always said in the AA grumpy column that the new revolution will come where things change for the better and we go back to england how it used to be

with people at work not signing on wednesday and buying their cans of special brew on friday .

people getting an operation without having to wait 12 months or pay to go private with bupa

criminals behind bars or doing community payback work.

we can be proud to be british once again wether you skin is black or white or your parents are first generation asian or indian whatever .

we need to get back to work back to a country to be proud of .

now we need the revolt of the irish to get eire out of the eu and back on its own feet and tell brussels to get stuffed you see if we dont play thier game and tear up their bit of euro paper that says we must be dictated by brussels the euro monster will simply die.

THE CHICKENS HAVE COME HOME TO ROOST GIVE THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT NOT WHAT THE POLITCIANS WANT AND THE COUNTRY DOESNT .

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:11 am

pantoandy;1174711 wrote: hello again happy easter from the grumps

the mainstream parties are running scared from the bnp

the people are turning towards the bnp because they have had enough of the lies enough of the illegal immigrats enough of the crime enough of poverty and the recession enough of the crumbling schools dirty hospitals etc etc need i say more ?

i have always said in the AA grumpy column that the new revolution will come where things change for the better and we go back to england how it used to be with

people at work not signing on wednesday and buying their cans of special brew on friday .

people getting an operation without having to wait 12 months or pay to go private with bupa

criminals behind bars or doing community payback work.

we can be proud to be british once again wether you skin is black or white or your parents are first generation asian or indian whatever .

we need to get back to work back to a country to be proud of .

THE CHICKENS HAVE COME HOME TO ROOST GIVE THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT NOT WHAT THE POLITCIANS WANT AND THE COUNTRY DOESNT .

They are running scared because alot of BNP policy is what people have been shouting for for years. Did you see the article where they did a poll on BNP policy? They highlighted BNP policy without saying which party it was and most people said they'd vote for them. The minute they found out it was the BNP, they changed their minds, yet agreed with the policies....... how hypocritical?

It is not just about immigration. Bnp want to hand total control back to teachers and school govenors instead of having some twit in a suit decide what's best just so the school get a good report from OFSTED. Did you know that some schools now employ bouncers???????? Because they hjust can not and are not allowed to control children.

The BNP want to hand back hospitals to Matrons who will be in charge of the cleaning etc instead of another twit in a suit deciding what's best for us.

The BNP want yobs to work n chain gangs to repay society for the damage they cause with no privilages.

The BNP want to end the slaughter of animals in the name of 'Halaal' and 'Kosha' meat. We use stun guns in this country. If they want to be barbaric, they can do it in their own country.

I could on. However, it is hypocritical of any-one to oppose a party with these policies when in secret they agree with them.

The main stram parties know that what people say and what they do in the privacy of a polling booth is very different.

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:16 am

pantoandy;1174711 wrote: hello again happy easter from the grumps

the mainstream parties are running scared from the bnp

the people are turning towards the bnp because they have had enough of the lies enough of the illegal immigrats enough of the crime enough of poverty and the recession enough of the crumbling schools dirty hospitals etc etc need i say more ?

i have always said in the AA grumpy column that the new revolution will come where things change for the better and we go back to england how it used to be with

people at work not signing on wednesday and buying their cans of special brew on friday .

people getting an operation without having to wait 12 months or pay to go private with bupa

criminals behind bars or doing community payback work.

we can be proud to be british once again wether you skin is black or white or your parents are first generation asian or indian whatever .

we need to get back to work back to a country to be proud of .

THE CHICKENS HAVE COME HOME TO ROOST GIVE THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT NOT WHAT THE POLITCIANS WANT AND THE COUNTRY DOESNT .

If only there was an ounce of truth in that statement. A quick glance at any BNP member's history and past statements say that's as likely as Nottinham Forrest winning next seasons Champions League. A BNP Government would be the signal for the racists to come out from behind the rocks that they live under, believing its the signal to go back to their old ways of "Paki-bashing" or whatever other pastime that might gladden their hearts.

Of course it will never happen not even nearly. A few marginal seats is all they can hope for, thank goodness

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:19 am

Snowfire;1174733 wrote: If only there was an ounce of truth in that statement. A quick glance at any BNP member's history and past statements say that's as likely as Nottinham Forrest winning next seasons Champions League. A BNP Government would be the signal for the racists to come out from behind the rocks that they live under, believing its the signal to go back to their old ways of "Paki-bashing" or whatever other pastime that might gladden their hearts.

Of course it will never happen not even nearly. A few marginal seats is all they can hope for, thank goodness
Nottingham Forest winning the Champions league??? Now don't get silly here :wah:

Just wait until the Euro elections..... you'll be shocked.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:31 am

oscar;1174544 wrote: gmc talks talks of why we have appeals and Jury's and the fact that we can not be found guilty based on some-one's say so.

In my case, I never denied throwing the yobs bike across the road. In interview under caution, it was established by my lawyer that police had not only failed to photograph the bike or obtain a reciept for the damage the yob claimed but they had even failed to view the bike. All they had was the yobs say so. I was charged with criminal damage. Under cross examination in court, the yob admited they were performing 'star jumps' on the bike when i caught them. The yob admited that he had no reciept for proof of damage and claimed his father had repaired the bike. His father was not there to give any evidence. The yob went on to say that he could not prove that the brake cable had snapped while they were doing the star jumps or weather it occurred when i threw it. So..... there was doubt.

In any case where there is doubt and no proof, 'ie, a repair reciept, the Judge should return a not guilty verdict. My judge found me guilty. However, by then the whole case had become so political, i'm in no doubt as to why he over-ruled my lawyers plea that there was doubt and sloppy police work in failing to view the bike or photograph it.

The police woman that arrested you didn't get away with it. So aren't you glad you live in a country where you do have human rights-the right to a fair trial and to appeal a decision and maybe now you will not be supporting the daft idea that the police should have the powers to arrest anyone they like without evidence of a crime and those who criticise the human rights act and deny the need for such legislation are talking through a hole on their bottoms.

posted by panto andy

i have always said in the AA grumpy column that the new revolution will come where things change for the better and we go back to england how it used to be

So you've noticed they want to break up the united kingdom as well? Just don't try and claim all the oil is yours and we (the scots) will be looking for a refund for supporting you all these years. You can keep gordon brown though.

posted by oscar

They are running scared because alot of BNP policy is what people have been shouting for for years. Did you see the article where they did a poll on BNP policy? They highlighted BNP policy without saying which party it was and most people said they'd vote for them. The minute they found out it was the BNP, they changed their minds, yet agreed with the policies....... how hypocritical?

It is not just about immigration. Bnp want to hand total control back to teachers and school govenors instead of having some twit in a suit decide what's best just so the school get a good report from OFSTED. Did you know that some schools now employ bouncers???????? Because they hjust can not and are not allowed to control children.

The BNP want to hand back hospitals to Matrons who will be in charge of the cleaning etc instead of another twit in a suit deciding what's best for us.

The BNP want yobs to work n chain gangs to repay society for the damage they cause with no privilages.

The BNP want to end the slaughter of animals in the name of 'Halaal' and 'Kosha' meat. We use stun guns in this country. If they want to be barbaric, they can do it in their own country.

I could on. However, it is hypocritical of any-one to oppose a party with these policies when in secret they agree with them.

The main stram parties know that what people say and what they do in the privacy of a polling booth is very different.

So why not change the name to the british fascist party? Nasty and fascist but honest about it-could be your new slogan.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:35 am

gmc;1174744 wrote: So why not change the name to the british fascist party? Nasty and fascist but honest about it-could be your new slogan. I have my own slogan......... 'You spawned it..... you failed to parent it..... now you pay for it.

:D:D

Chezzie · Post by **Chezzie** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:36 am

The BNP is unlikely to be seen as a serious force in British politics, but their rise in popularity must serve as a warning to Westminster that if voters believe their concerns are being ignored by the established parties, they will turn elsewhere.

Most of us here agree that our current government are failing us appallingly. Some of what the BNP says is what most people in the UK want...Less immigrants who leech off the system, better schooling, tougher laws for criminals but the BNP is far too extreme for my liking. Once in power I can see them implementing a supreme white UK, hanging, birch, no EU....List is endless...

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:42 am

Chezzie;1174750 wrote: The BNP is unlikely to be seen as a serious force in British politics, but their rise in popularity must serve as a warning to Westminster that if voters believe their concerns are being ignored by the established parties, they will turn elsewhere.

Most of us here agree that our current government are failing us appallingly. Some of what the BNP says is what most people in the UK want...Less immigrants who leech off the system, better schooling, tougher laws for criminals but the BNP is far too extreme for my liking. Once in power I can see them implementing a supreme white UK, hanging, birch, no EU....List is endless...

I agree entirely. Immigration should be looked at. Especially criminal and illegal immigration. We've been failed. Miserably.

But fascism is not the answer.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:46 am

Snowfire;1174754 wrote: But fascism is not the answer. What is the answer then? Most Labour policies are backed by the Tories. What do we do?....... Sit round for another four years watching our country rot under pc and saria law?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:50 am

Chezzie;1174750 wrote: The BNP is unlikely to be seen as a serious force in British politics, but their rise in popularity must serve as a warning to Westminster that if voters believe their concerns are being ignored by the established parties, they will turn elsewhere.

Most of us here agree that our current government are failing us appallingly. Some of what the BNP says is what most people in the UK want...Less immigrants who leech off the system, better schooling, tougher laws for criminals but the BNP is far too extreme for my liking. Once in power I can see them implementing a supreme white UK, hanging, birch, no EU....List is endless... Very well said your Chezzness but i actually believe that the more council seats they gain and it is only a matter of time before they have an MP in the House of Commons, they may tone down the far right policies to actually stand a chance of gaining more power. The Euro elections will be the one to watch.

How can any one object to a BNP MP when we have the likes of Jerry Adams??

Post by **pantoandy** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:38 pm

pantoandy;1174711 wrote: hello again happy easter from the grumps

the mainstream parties are running scared from the bnp

the people are turning towards the bnp because they have had enough of the lies enough of the illegal immigrats enough of the crime enough of poverty and the recession enough of the crumbling schools dirty hospitals etc etc need i say more ?

i have always said in the AA grumpy column that the new revolution will come where things change for the better and we go back to england how it used to be

with people at work not signing on wednesday and buying their cans of special brew on friday .

people getting an operation without having to wait 12 months or pay to go private with bupa

criminals behind bars or doing community payback work.

we can be proud to be british once again wether you skin is black or white or your parents are first generation asian or indian whatever .

we need to get back to work back to a country to be proud of .

now we need the revolt of the irish to get eire out of the eu and back on its own feet and tell brussels to get stuffed you see if we dont play thier game and tear up their bit of euro paper that says we must be dictated by brussels the euro monster will simply die.

THE CHICKENS HAVE COME HOME TO ROOST GIVE THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT NOT WHAT THE POLITCIANS WANT AND THE COUNTRY DOESNT .

to quote myself g.b whats the irish view on this ??

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:17 am

oscar;1174759 wrote: What is the answer then? Most Labour policies are backed by the Tories. What do we do?....... Sit round for another four years watching our country rot under pc and saria law?

Liberal democracy which is what we have-but with proportional representation so that the current disenfranchisement of most of the electorate stops happening. Perhaps still allow large corporations or individuals to give large contributions to the parties but amounts and from whom fully disclosed. Both the major parties need to rethink how to represent their membership and elect leaders, any political party that is bankrupt should be barred-if they can't manage their own finances they have no chance of running the country.

Did you know proportional representation was imposed on germany and italy because it prevents parties with a minority of votes but a majority of seats getting control? Hitler did not have a majority of the votes in 1933 despite beimng able to ban his major opposition parties from standing. He played on the fears of the establishment and the prejudices of the people used democracy to get power, and then ended it to ensure he wouldn't be voted out.

In the Thatcher years she had about a third of the overall votes, new labour have never had a majority of the overall votes yet thanks to the first past the post system they have the most seats and therefore hold power. Our politicians kid themselves they have a mandate. Neither of the major parties want to change because it suits them-although the tories in scotland now think it wonderful because it is the only way they would ever get any seats. Even roy hattersley has come round to the idea

Roy Hattersley: Maybe I was wrong after all | Politics | The Guardian

Funny how tony blair lost his enthusiasm for the idea.

MP's under 40 should be banned-at least considered to be banned as it means we will get away from having professional politicians like blair, brown, cameron who have never had a real job and live in a fantasy world here they rule the universe.

Anyone stupid enough to vote for a political party that argues that democracy has failed and wants an authoritarian one should be locked up in a mental asylum. But that's probably wishful thinking.

If the BNP get anywhere it will mean the destruction of the united kingdom as we know it and lead most certainly to the break up of the union. Why anyone would vote for a fascist party or even a communist one that want to end democracy and create a police state where individual human rights are at the whim of a jackbooted minority is one of those interminable questions of politics to which there is no answer. Maybe it's the lemming gene in action.

Ban everybody who does not have blue eyes from voting-at least that way we can be sure no one of mixed tribal ancestry and is properly british or at least is descended from some of the earlier conquerors gets a say in things and keeps the riffraff out of it.

posted by oscar

How can any one object to a BNP MP when we have the likes of Jerry Adams??

Or Ian Paisley-bigots united in a democratic union. hooray for finally talking to each other rather than just hitting with clubs all the time. Left to the morons in the BNP the troubles would still be going on.

Anyone with half a grain of common sense can object to the BNP. Fascism is not the answer never has been and never will be.

they may tone down the far right policies to actually stand a chance of gaining more power.

Even you know that.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:19 am

pantoandy;1174829 wrote: to quote myself g.b whats the irish view on this ?? I don't think they have one mate. Ireland has just had to slash benifits, health care and raise taxes. They seem to be in a pickle to put it mildly. No disrespect to Ireland of course.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:29 am

gmc;1174958 wrote: Liberal democracy which is what we have-but with proportional representation so that the current disenfranchisement of most of the electorate stops happening. Perhaps still allow large corporations or individuals to give large contributions to the parties but amounts and from whom fully disclosed. Both the major parties need to rethink how to represent their membership and elect leaders, any political party that is bankrupt should be barred-if they can't manage their own finances they have no chance of running the country.

Did you know proportional representation was imposed on germany and italy because it prevents parties with a minority of votes but a majority of seats getting control? Hitler did not have a majority of the votes in 1933 despite beimng able to ban his major opposition parties from standing. He played on the fears of the establishment and the prejudices of the people used democracy to get power, and then ended it to ensure he wouldn't be voted out.

In the Thatcher years she had about a third of the overall votes, new labour have never had a majority of the overall votes yet thanks to the first past the post system they have the most seats and therefore hold power. Our politicians kid themselves they have a mandate. Neither of the major parties want to change because it suits them-although the tories in scotland now think it wonderful because it is the only way they would ever get any seats. Even roy hattersley has come round to the idea

Roy Hattersley: Maybe I was wrong after all | Politics | The Guardian

Funny how tony blair lost his enthusiasm for the idea.

MP's under 40 should be banned-at least considered to be banned as it means we will get away from having professional politicians like blair, brown, cameron who have never had a real job and live in a fantasy world here they rule the universe.

Anyone stupid enough to vote for a political party that argues that democracy has failed and wants an authoritarian one should be locked up in a mental asylum. But that's probably wishful thinking.

If the BNP get anywhere it will mean the destruction of the united kingdom as we know it and lead most certainly to the break up of the union. Why anyone would vote for a fascist party or even a communist one that want to end democracy and create a police state where individual human rights are at the whim of a jackbooted minority is one of those interminable questions of politics to which there is no answer. Maybe it's the lemming gene in action.

Ban everybody who does not have blue eyes from voting-at least that way we can be sure no one of mixed tribal ancestry and is properly british or at least is descended from some of the earlier conquerors gets a say in things and keeps the riffraff out of it.

posted by oscar

Or Ian Paisley-bigots united in a democratic union. hooray for finally talking to each other rather than just hitting with clubs all the time. Left to the morons in the BNP the troubles would still be going on.

Anyone with half a grain of common sense can object to the BNP. Fascism is not the answer never has been and never will be.

Even you know that. Trouble is.... I don't see a hung Parliment. By the time we get to a general election i think one of two things will happen. One is that Gordon Brown's recue package will pay off and he will get the credit, winning the election or he will balls it up so much, the Tories will win by a Landslide. The Lib Dems have no chance nor has UKIP.

I still find it odd that i have posted the hammer attack on the BNP on these threads by thugs supported by Labour and Tory MP's under the name of UAF, yet no-one seems to want to comment on them.

I will say it again.......weather anyone agrees with the BNP or not, they are a bono fide registered Party. The UAF wants them dis-banded. Now to me, that's telling people how to vote. That to me is fascism but this does not seem to be recognised. I could cheerfully post the list of idiot MP's that support and fund the UAF, one of which is my own local Labour MP. What these tossers don't realise, is the more they try to tell people how they should vote, the more support the BNP will get. How can any-one say the BNP should be dis-banded yet allow the UAF to bully and threaten members? Believe me, the BNP are not rising to them, they are patiently keeping their heads down until the Euro elections.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:56 am

Rise in state handouts for credit crunch Poles pushed out of jobs and into UK benefits system | Mail Online

This country is groaning under the strain of benifit hand out's. We are now seeing a serious problem where due to the credit crunch, more and more are signing on for benifit yet we are still opening the gates to immigration. People who arrive here with absolutely nothing and expect us to keep them for the rest of their days without giving this country anything back. If and when the money finally runs out and we see cuts in benifits, it will be our pensioners and young that will suffer. This country just can not sustain this kind of numbers.

It is very much like the situation where i live. There has been 3,000 houses built in the last ten years and another 12,000 are going up on greenbelt by 2012. No extra Doctors surgery's, dentists or schools are proposed yet we are supposed to cope. This is happening all over the country.

We also need a major change in benifits paid to our own scroungers as well. I'm sick of seeing the likes of my neighbour buying her cheap booze and fags the moment her giro arrives and we have worked for everything we have.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:36 am

How can any one object to a BNP MP when we have the likes of Jerry Adams??

Because Gerry Adams renounced the armed struggle, as did McGuinness. They still oppose the Union, but have resolved to do so by peaceful means and they have every right to do so. The BNP has not renounced racism, has not renounced fascism. It is the NF in a suit.

Let us for a start remember who we are.

We are the people who stood alone against Fascist Germany when it had raped Poland and smashed France and it seemed nothing could stop them. We stood, a small island off the NW coast of Europe isolated from the few left who would help us and said, "Rather Death than Fascism" and with the Commonwealth (Thank you Canada, thank you South Africa, thank you you Aussies bastards and Kiwis) and Empire, and joined by the United States, fought that war until we won, although it left us broke and out of manpower and dependent on American charity to feed ourselves. It cost us the Empire.

Proud to be British? You bet I am!

Against the Japanese the British were a minority compared to the Indian Army (remember that India at that time included what are now Pakistan and Bangladesh) but the forces of the British Empire (including those from Africa) under Bill Slim and Mountbatten defended India from the Japanese and then fought their way back into Burma through some of the most inhospitable terrain on earth, fought and won. Indians, Gurkhas, Africans and British together.

The Poles and Czechs were among the most effective squadrons in the Battle of Britain. The "top scoring" squadron was Polish. Without them we might have lost that Battle and the war.

And who do the BNP hate? Africans, Indians, Poles, Czechs and Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Sikhs. The very people who laid down their lives to fight Fascism and militarism! The very people who defended our shores, our people and our Empire!

Ashamed of the BNP? You bet I am!

Just one little example of the sort of thing I'm talking about: There have been a lot of Poles over here - WORKING! In the building trade in particular. I know one who has bought a house here, with money he earned by the sweat of his brow, and now lives here with his wife and daughter. He tells me that since the crash the work has been drying up and the Poles have not been signing on, they've gone back to Poland. They aren't sitting here like fat white Brits, moaning that their dole isn't enough and having kids by the dozen to get a council house. That's British and NOT something you see the Indians doing: If their business fails they get a job shifting luggage at Heathrow, or cleaning toilets - but they get out there and work!

Respect that? You bet I do!

After the Second World War these people showed they admired and respected Britain so much that when we asked them to come over here, to shattered, bankrupt Britain, and help us rebuild, they did and forced us to confront our own racism. Anyone here old enough to remember the signs in the windows of boarding houses: "No Irish or blacks"?

But we did learn, and are still learning, and will continue to learn in the future. And certainly one of the things we are learning now is that those who come here DO need to sign up to British values such as equal rights for all. We need to keep an eye on white fascist racism (it's as ugly and evil as any other sort) but we need also to look at what I might call brown/black racism, and to educate people that freedom of expression does not mean banning the freedom of expression of others, and if we don't like the Pope, or Jesus, or Mohammed, we have every right to say so! AND WE DO NOT NEED THE BNP TO DO THIS! They peddle hate and are part of the problem.

So how do we move forward?

GET INVOLVED! We can no longer afford the luxury of sitting back and criticising our politicians for their failings but doing nothing. How many here even voted in the last election? How many have ever commented on a consultation paper that is there for us the public to comment on? How many have joined a political party and said we need to change policy? (Please note that I regard myself as guilty of all these charges and am not just blaming others)

I believe in the people of this country, black, white, brown yellow or any shade between or beyond! We are a democracy and if enough of us get involved, we can create change. We can go to the Labour Party Conference (or the Tory one, or the Lib Dems) and say ENOUGH! We want the fat cats controlled. We want better schools and hospitals and accept that we have to pay for it and the BNP policy of withdrawing from our biggest trading partner (Europe) will guarantee we don't have the money. We want our Press to be free, not controlled by the political bias of its owner and we can get it put in the manifesto that no individual or organisation can own more than a 25% share in any newspaper, tv station or internet company worth more than x amount.

It isn't easy but it can be done if enough of us decide to do it - and that starts with ME and it starts with YOU, because if we don't get off our arses and take that first step you can be sure no-one else will.

This is a democracy. WE are responsible. If the situation is bad we have to start by admitting that it is our own apathy that has got us here - political parties are only what we the electorate allow them to be and if we don't like them we have only ourselves to blame. It is up to us to change them.

But it doesn't happen overnight. There are no quick fixes for a country of 60,000,000 or so and anyone who says there is is probably lying.

So STAND UP! Get out in your local community and see what you can do. Join your local Party (of whatever flavour as long as it isn't the very Fascism our fathers and grandfathers fought against) and be a force for change but remember that it takes time, it takes work, it takes patience, it takes discussion.

We are the British. We are the Unconquered. Are we going to let all that we stand for be trodden underfoot by the snivelling lying racists of the BNP or the self seeking and amoral of any Party?

NO.

But it is the responsibility of me, and it is the responsibility of you. There is no-one there to do it for us. We are grown up now, and it is time we started behaving like adults.

Now MOVE!

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:49 am

Clodhopper;1174994 wrote:

!

.

But it is the responsibility of me, and it is the responsibility of you. There is no-one there to do it for us. We are grown up now, and it is time we started behaving like adults.

Now MOVE!

I can't answer your post in full for a while as i have to go out but frankly, i find your whole post patronising.

Don't preach to me about the war. My father was a Spitfire Pilot, my grandfather was blown up on the Somme and alot of my time is with the RBL and helping surviving war vets raise funds.

Also, do not preach to me about getting involved in my community when i sat on local council for years and still chair residents meetings.

I'll get back to you later.

You've just made Oscar Wilde.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:56 am

I was talking to everyone, not just you.

My Dad was a boffin in WW2, my uncle served in India and my granddad fought at the Front all through WW1 and I have as much right to express my opinions on these matters as you do. I would still have as much right even if they hadn't been involved.

It is called Freedom of Speech and is something that Fascists hate.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:58 am

Clodhopper;1174999 wrote: I was talking to everyone, not just you.

. Then my apologies but you quoted me.

Must dash.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:04 am

Then my apologies but you quoted me.

Yeah, that's where it started. Then I suddenly found I had quite a lot I wanted to say!

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:53 am

Clodhopper;1175002 wrote: Yeah, that's where it started. Then I suddenly found I had quite a lot I wanted to say!

And very well said.

posted by oscar

My father was a Spitfire Pilot, my grandfather was blown up on the Somme and alot of my time is with the RBL and helping surviving war vets raise funds.

Oscar it would be very hard to find a briton of your age that did NOT have a relatives involved in ww2 and ww1. It's hardly exceptional and your keeping mentioning it as if it gave you extra right to comment is not only patronising it's irritating and shows a great deal of ignorance. I''ll see your brylcreem boy and raise you a father and an uncle in the british eighth army and relatives in bomber command, the royal navy the merchant navy the paratroops not to mention the odd one or two that had their houses destroyed by german bombers. Ask anyone the same age as you and they can probably reel off the names of people in their family that went to war. Even without that as clodhopper points out we all have a right to comment.

kazalala · Post by **kazalala** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:33 am

Clodhopper;1174994 wrote: Because Gerry Adams renounced the armed struggle, as did McGuinness. They still oppose the Union, but have resolved to do so by peaceful means and they have every right to do so. The BNP has not renounced racism, has not renounced fascism. It is the NF in a suit.

Let us for a start remember who we are.

We are the people who stood alone against Fascist Germany when it had raped Poland and smashed France and it seemed nothing could stop them. We stood, a small island off the NW coast of Europe isolated from the few left who would help us and said, "Rather Death than Fascism" and with the Commonwealth (Thank you Canada, thank you South Africa, thank you you Aussies bastards and Kiwis) and Empire, and joined by the United States, fought that war until we won, although it left us broke and out of manpower and dependent on American charity to feed ourselves. It cost us the Empire.

Proud to be British? You bet I am!

Against the Japanese the British were a minority compared to the Indian Army (remember that India at that time included what are now Pakistan and Bangladesh) but the forces of the British Empire (including those from Africa) under Bill Slim and Mountbatten defended India from the Japanese and then fought their way back into Burma through some of the most inhospitable terrain on earth, fought and won. Indians, Gurkhas, Africans and British together.

The Poles and Czechs were among the most effective squadrons in the Battle of Britain. The "top scoring" squadron was Polish. Without them we might have lost that Battle and the war.

And who do the BNP hate? Africans, Indians, Poles, Czechs and Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Sikhs. The very people who laid down their lives to fight Fascism and militarism! The very people who defended our shores, our people and our Empire!

Ashamed of the BNP? You bet I am!

Just one little example of the sort of thing I'm talking about: There have been a lot of Poles over here - WORKING! In the building trade in particular. I know one who has bought a house here, with money he earned by the sweat of his brow, and now lives here with his wife and daughter. He tells me that since the crash the work has been drying up and the Poles have not been signing on, they've gone back to Poland. They aren't sitting here like fat white Brits, moaning that their dole isn't enough and having kids by the dozen to get a council house. That's British and NOT something you see the Indians doing: If their business fails they get a job shifting luggage at Heathrow, or cleaning toilets - but they get out there and work!

Respect that? You bet I do!

After the Second World War these people showed they admired and respected Britain so much that when we asked them to come over here, to shattered, bankrupt Britain, and help us rebuild, they did and forced us to confront our own racism. Anyone here old enough to remember the signs in the windows of boarding houses: "No Irish or blacks"?

But we did learn, and are still learning, and will continue to learn in the future. And certainly one of the things we are learning now is that those who come here DO need to sign up to British values such as equal rights for all. We need to keep an eye on white fascist racism (it's as ugly and evil as any other sort) but we need also to look at what I might call brown/black racism, and to educate people that freedom of expression does not mean banning the freedom of expression of others, and if we don't like the Pope, or Jesus, or Mohammed, we have every right to say so! AND WE DO NOT NEED THE BNP TO DO THIS! They peddle hate and are part of the problem.

So how do we move forward?

GET INVOLVED! We can no longer afford the luxury of sitting back and criticising our politicians for their failings but doing nothing. How many here even voted in the last election? How many have ever commented on a consultation paper that is there for us the public to comment on? How many have joined a political party and said we need to change policy? (Please note that I regard myself as guilty of all these charges and am not just blaming others)

I believe in the people of this country, black, white, brown yellow or any shade between or beyond! We are a democracy and if enough of us get involved, we can create change. We can go to the Labour Party Conference (or the Tory one, or the Lib Dems) and say ENOUGH! We want the fat cats controlled. We want better schools and hospitals and accept that we have to pay for it and the BNP policy of withdrawing from our biggest trading partner (Europe) will guarantee we don't have the money. We want our Press to be free, not controlled by the political bias of its owner and we can get it put in the manifesto that no individual or organisation can own more than a 25% share in any newspaper, tv station or internet company worth more than x amount.

It isn't easy but it can be done if enough of us decide to do it - and that starts with ME and it starts with YOU, because if we don't get off our arses and take that first step you can be sure no-one else will.

This is a democracy. WE are responsible. If the situation is bad we have to start by admitting that it is our own apathy that has got us here - political parties are only what we the electorate allow them to be and if we don't like them we have only ourselves to blame. It is up to us to change them.

But it doesn't happen overnight. There are no quick fixes for a country of 60,000,000 or so and anyone who says there is is probably lying.

So STAND UP! Get out in your local community and see what you can do. Join your local Party (of whatever flavour as long as it isn't the very Fascism our fathers and grandfathers fought against) and be a force for change but remember that it takes time, it takes work, it takes patience, it takes discussion.

We are the British. We are the Unconquered. Are we going to let all that we stand for be trodden underfoot by the snivelling lying racists of the BNP or the self seeking and amoral of any Party?

NO.

But it is the responsibility of me, and it is the responsibility of you. There is no-one there to do it for us. We are grown up now, and it is time we started behaving like adults.

Now MOVE!

:yh_clap:yh_clap:yh_clap

gmc;1175026 wrote: And very well said.

posted by oscar

Oscar it would be very hard to find a briton of your age that did NOT have a relatives involved in ww2 and ww1. It's hardly exceptional and your keeping mentioning it as if it gave you extra right to comment is not only patronising it's irritating and shows a great deal of ignorance. I''ll see your brylcreem boy and raise you a father and an uncle in the british eighth army and relatives in bomber command, the royal navy the merchant navy the paratroops not to mention the odd one or two that had their houses destroyed by german bombers. Ask anyone the same age as you and they can probably reel off the names of people in their family that went to war. Even without that as clodhopper points out we all have a right to comment.
:yh_clap:yh_clap:yh_clap

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:42 am

gmc;1175026 wrote: And very well said.

posted by oscar

Oscar it would be very hard to find a briton of your age that did NOT have a relatives involved in ww2 and ww1. It's hardly exceptional and your keeping mentioning it as if it gave you extra right to comment is not only patronising it's irritating and shows a great deal of ignorance. I''ll see your brylcreem boy and raise you a father and an uncle in the british eighth army and relatives in bomber command, the royal navy the merchant navy the paratroops not to mention the odd one or two that had their houses destroyed by german bombers. Ask anyone the same age as you and they can probably reel off the names of people in their family that went to war. Even without that as clodhopper points out we all have a right to comment. Exactly.....you've hit the nail on the head. Most people our age have relatives with a war history and it's why myself and probably others do not need the WW2 history lesson.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:20 am

Clodhopper;1174994 wrote: Because Gerry Adams renounced the armed struggle, as did McGuinness. They still oppose the Union, but have resolved to do so by peaceful means and they have every right to do so. The BNP has not renounced racism, has not renounced fascism. It is the NF in a suit.

Let us for a start remember who we are.

We are the people who stood alone against Fascist Germany when it had raped Poland and smashed France and it seemed nothing could stop them. We stood, a small island off the NW coast of Europe isolated from the few left who would help us and said, "Rather Death than Fascism" and with the Commonwealth (Thank you Canada, thank you South Africa, thank you you Aussies bastards and Kiwis) and Empire, and joined by the United States, fought that war until we won, although it left us broke and out of manpower and dependent on American charity to feed ourselves. It cost us the Empire.

Proud to be British? You bet I am!

Against the Japanese the British were a minority compared to the Indian Army (remember that India at that time included what are now Pakistan and Bangladesh) but the forces of the British Empire (including those from Africa) under Bill Slim and Mountbatten defended India from the Japanese and then fought their way back into Burma through some of the most inhospitable terrain on earth, fought and won. Indians, Gurkhas, Africans and British together.

The Poles and Czechs were among the most effective squadrons in the Battle of Britain. The "top scoring" squadron was Polish. Without them we might have lost that Battle and the war.

And who do the BNP hate? Africans, Indians, Poles, Czechs and Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Sikhs. The very people who laid down their lives to fight Fascism and militarism! The very people who defended our shores, our people and our Empire!

Ashamed of the BNP? You bet I am!

Just one little example of the sort of thing I'm talking about: There have been a lot of Poles over here - WORKING! In the building trade in particular. I know one who has bought a house here, with money he earned by the sweat of his brow, and now lives here with his wife and daughter. He tells me that since the crash the work has been drying up and the Poles have not been signing on, they've gone back to Poland. They aren't sitting here like fat white Brits, moaning that their dole isn't enough and having kids by the dozen to get a council house. That's British and NOT something you see the Indians doing: If their business fails they get a job shifting luggage at Heathrow, or cleaning toilets - but they get out there and work!

Respect that? You bet I do!

After the Second World War these people showed they admired and respected Britain so much that when we asked them to come over here, to shattered, bankrupt Britain, and help us rebuild, they did and forced us to confront our own racism. Anyone here old enough to remember the signs in the windows of boarding houses: "No Irish or blacks"?

But we did learn, and are still learning, and will continue to learn in the future. And certainly one of the things we are learning now is that those who come here DO need to sign up to British values such as equal rights for all. We need to keep an eye on white fascist racism (it's as ugly and evil as any other sort) but we need also to look at what I might call brown/black racism, and to educate people that freedom of expression does not mean banning the freedom of expression of others, and if we don't like the Pope, or Jesus, or Mohammed, we have every right to say so! AND WE DO NOT NEED THE BNP TO DO THIS! They peddle hate and are part of the problem.

So how do we move forward?

GET INVOLVED! We can no longer afford the luxury of sitting back and criticising our politicians for their failings but doing nothing. How many here even voted in the last election? How many have ever commented on a consultation paper that is there for us the public to comment on? How many have joined a political party and said we need to change policy? (Please note that I regard myself as guilty of all these charges and am not just blaming others)

I believe in the people of this country, black, white, brown yellow or any shade between or beyond! We are a democracy and if enough of us get involved, we can create change. We can go to the Labour Party Conference (or the Tory one, or the Lib Dems) and say ENOUGH! We want the fat cats controlled. We want better schools and hospitals and accept that we have to pay for it and the BNP policy of withdrawing from our biggest trading partner (Europe) will guarantee we don't have the money. We want our Press to be free, not controlled by the political bias of its owner and we can get it put in the manifesto that no individual or organisation can own more than a 25% share in any newspaper, tv station or internet company worth more than x amount.

It isn't easy but it can be done if enough of us decide to do it - and that starts with ME and it starts with YOU, because if we don't get off our arses and take that first step you can be sure no-one else will.

This is a democracy. WE are responsible. If the situation is bad we have to start by admitting that it is our own apathy that has got us here - political parties are only what we the electorate allow them to be and if we don't like them we have only ourselves to blame. It is up to us to change them.

But it doesn't happen overnight. There are no quick fixes for a country of 60,000,000 or so and anyone who says there is is probably lying.

So STAND UP! Get out in your local community and see what you can do. Join your local Party (of whatever flavour as long as it isn't the very Fascism our fathers and grandfathers fought against) and be a force for change but remember that it takes time, it takes work, it takes patience, it takes discussion.

We are the British. We are the Unconquered. Are we going to let all that we stand for be trodden underfoot by the snivelling lying racists of the BNP or the self seeking and amoral of any Party?

NO.

But it is the responsibility of me, and it is the responsibility of you. There is no-one there to do it for us. We are grown up now, and it is time we started behaving like adults.

Now MOVE!

The title of this thread is about Harriot Harman coming out publicy to say the BNP are a threat. Why are they a threat? Are they going around beating people up? No, they are competing in bono fide elections and winning. So who are all these people voting for them because some-one is for them to win council seats? Are they skinheads wearing union Jack tee-shirts and Doc Martins?

They are ordinary people that you pass in the street. Nurses, bank managers, builders etc who are sick of the way this country has gone.

This Labour government proposed to give £3,000 to any immigrant to go back to their own country. Are Labour racist or Fascist?

If your going to bring the war into it, do you really think any of our relatives fought for this pile of shyte we now call England?

A country where we let physcotic dangerous criminals out on the streets early because of prison over-crowding.

A country where the yobs rule the sink estates and stick two fingers up to the establishment due to soft sentencing.

A country where some-one can be cautioned 5 times by the police before appearing before the courts even for carrying a weapon.

A country where education has been systematically stripped of any authority and bouncers are being hired in schools because the teachers can not do anything.

A country where people die in filthy dirty hospitals and have to wait a year and a half for surgery.

A country who now wants to moniter your e mails and google search.

A country where you are spied on to the extent that they can even see when your putting your bins out.

A country where children are singing 'Baa Baa non-white sheep, have you any wool' for fear of upsetting some-one.

A country almost brought to it's knee's in a financial capitalistic money grabbing ideal.

A country that pays out more benifit than any other country pro rata.

A country where the police are dangerousely under-funded and manned to the extent that if you now see Grade C crime taking place, you have to text your beat bobby instead of calling the police.

A country full of ethnic sink estates due to bad management of councils and housing.

A country where children die from abuse due to the neglegence of social services.

A country where ambulences and paramedics are attacked on a call out.

A country where we have the highest amount of teenage pregnancies in Europe.

A country where the government is offering mothers cash to walk their children to school because kids are so obese and lazy.

A country where city centres are no-gone zones when night clubs kick out due to street violence from binge drinking.

A country who what ever government is in has corrupt lying bastards who are only there to feather their own nest.

A country where in ten years time, kids won't even know what our relatives fought for because the curiculem is dropping the war history in favour of teaching kids 'twitter'.

A country where the scroungers have more money for booze than our pensioners have to pay their heating bills.

A country where the elderly are forced to sell their homes to pay for care in their last years after working all their lives.

You may be proud..... I certainly am not and i'm sure that this is not what any of our families fought a war for.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:47 am

oscar;1175037 wrote: Exactly.....you've hit the nail on the head. Most people our age have relatives with a war history and it's why myself and probably others do not need the WW2 history lesson.

Exactly which is why you don't need to keep mentioning your father was a spitfire pilot at every opportunity. On the other hand you do seem to have forgotten what brought on the war and want to stand as an MP for a party that is the inheritors of the british union of fascists.

Do you know anything about the rise of fascism and the nazis? If they were worth fighting the the 1940's they are still worth fighting today.