Gun Control vs. Gun Rights

Jason McCarty · Post by **Jason McCarty** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:57 am

What's your stand on this issue?

Rapunzel · Post by **Rapunzel** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:01 pm

Take every gun, bullet and armament and melt them down to make fences or aeroplanes or something.

Guns maim and kill. A gun has never done anything good. And too many innocent people have been killed.

The world would be a better place if guns had never existed!

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:47 pm

Jason McCarty wrote: What's your stand on this issue?

I'm quite happy with the way things are here. I perhaps would make the penalty

for using guns in crimes a lot more severe, though, and maybe allow target

shooting enthusiasts access to hand guns, instead of having the present ban.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:40 pm

Rap, I'm curious to know how a gun ever killed a person. It takes a person to pull the trigger, the gun does not act alone, or of any free will. It's an inanimate object, only useful when a person is on the other end to fire the bullet.

Speaking of Bullet, his life and the lives of 2 other people were saved because of his gun. I thank God every day that he had that gun on him that night, or he'd have been the one dead.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:45 pm

BabyRider wrote:

Speaking of Bullet, his life and the lives of 2 other people were saved because of his gun. I thank God every day that he had that gun on him that night, or he'd have been the one dead.

Why is he imprisoned? Have you links to reports, or court proceedings? Perhaps

this is one for a different thread.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:49 pm

Bill Sikes wrote: Why is he imprisoned? Have you links to reports, or court proceedings? Perhaps

this is one for a different thread.
Actually, Bill I think this is the perfect thread, considering that the Governor here just passed the Castle Doctrine law that could overturn his conviction. I mean, we are talking about gun control and gun rights, aren't we? Had the law been passed 20 days previous, this thing would have never even gotten to court.

He is imprisoned because 12 moronic members of a jury believed the prosecution over our lawyer. I have none of the transcripts or reports yet, and won't have them until the beginning of October.

Crème brÃ»lée · Post by **Crème brÃ»lée** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:22 pm

Bill Sikes wrote: Why is he imprisoned? Have you links to reports, or court proceedings? Perhaps

this is one for a different thread.

yes, I agree, a news story would be nice.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:25 pm

Crème brÃ»lée wrote: yes, I agree, a news story would be nice.
Yeah, it would be, except shooting a crack dealer in Detroit isn't news-worthy. All the details of this whole thing can be found right here in FG. If you have specific questions, zip off a PM. This was a self-defense case, plain and simple.

Crème brÃ»lée · Post by **Crème brÃ»lée** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:29 pm

It can be looked up can't it? I will see what I can find out, my brothers wife father is retired judge in Ohio.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:32 pm

Crème brÃ»lée wrote: It can be looked up can't it? I will see what I can find out, my brothers wife father is retired judge in Ohio.
I'm sure it can be looked up, but I don't know you and I'm not about to give out my husband's personal info over this forum. If someone I know vouches for you, I'd be happy to tell you.

Crème brÃ»lée · Post by **Crème brÃ»lée** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:34 pm

BabyRider wrote: I'm sure it can be looked up, but I don't know you and I'm not about to give out my husband's personal info over this forum. If someone I know vouches for you, I'd be happy to tell you.

I was just going to ask him about this missjustice thing, he may be able to shed some light.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:36 pm

Crème brÃ»lée wrote: I was just going to ask him about this missjustice thing, he may be able to shed some light.
Ah, that would be interesting. A crack dealer shot at my husband who returned fire from his legal, registered gun that he was carrying with a CCW. My husband was a beter shot than the crack dealer. It's really that simple.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:07 pm

BabyRider wrote: Rap, I'm curious to know how a gun ever killed a person. It takes a person to pull the trigger, the gun does not act alone, or of any free will. It's an inanimate object, only useful when a person is on the other end to fire the bullet.

Speaking of Bullet, his life and the lives of 2 other people were saved because of his gun. I thank God every day that he had that gun on him that night, or he'd have been the one dead.

They just do. I dont know how they do it but they do. Its one of lifes mysteries.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:23 pm

I don't like guns and don't use them. However I maintain that theory that if you took them away from honest citizens the only people having them would be the criminals. There will always be accidents and plain misuse but I side with the right to own them.

Adam Zapple · Post by **Adam Zapple** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:15 am

RedGlitter wrote: I don't like guns and don't use them. However I maintain that theory that if you took them away from honest citizens the only people having them would be the criminals. There will always be accidents and plain misuse but I side with the right to own them.

My thoughts exactly. Well, almost. I have no dislike for guns, I just chose not to own one, mainly because of the kids .

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:22 am

Diuretic wrote: Gun owners here are overwhelmingly responsible people. There's always the occasional idiot but thankfully very, very few. I put that down to a history of effective gun control as well as cultural issues. Criminals - as will be pointed out I have no doubt - are able to obtain guns. But they're not able to obtain them easily. That has a lot to do with the fact that Australia is a very big island and that we don't manufacture a lot of the weapons that are here.

Guns kill people because people make them kill people. Guns kill people with a great deal of efficiency, it's what they're designed to do so none of us should be surprised that it happens. I'd suggest though that the rate of guns killing people because people make them kill people is higher in countries that have a lot of guns and little gun control than in countries that have only a few guns and a lot of gun control.

I agree with this post. As a matter of interest, what is the situation (law) in

Australia? Roughly the same, but a bit more permissive, than in the UK, I

should guess.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:44 am

I'm told I'm quite the character. Can I have a gun? Can I? Huh?? :yh_silly

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:23 am

You guys are tops! :-6

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:38 am

I can see the theory about restricting the freedoms people have involving gun rights, but I just can't quite get passed this...

This is quoted from an article written by Joyce Lee Malcolm in response to Great Britain banning almost all private firearm ownership and all handgun ownership since 1997.

"Gun Control in England: The Tarnished Gold Standard,” written by historian Joyce Lee Malcolm and published in the fall 2004 issue of Journal on Firearms & Public Policy:

[Between 1997 and 2003] crimes with [banned firearms] have more than doubled.... In 2002, for the fourth consecutive year, gun crime in England and Wales rose — by 35 percent for all firearms, and by a whopping 46 percent for the banned handguns. Nearly 10,000 firearms offenses were committed....

Clearly since the ban criminals have not found it difficult to get guns and the balance has not shifted in the interest of public safety....

In the four years from 1997 to 2001 the rate of violent crime more than doubled. The UK murder rate for 2002 was the highest for a century....

A recent study of all the countries of western Europe has found that in 2001 Britain had the worst record for killings, violence and burglary, and its citizens had one of the highest risks in the industrialized world of becoming victims of crime....

I personally believe that firearms can act as a deterrent against crime, but to be honest I am for whatever works, and because of this I am forced to look at the evidence.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:56 am

That study seems to prove what I have almost always maintained: that if you remove guns from good people, it will put the people to a disadvantage. If guns never existed period, there would be no problem but the fact is they do and the bad guys will always have access. Always. So keep good strong laws about guns but don't remove them from the hands of the good citizens.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:09 am

RedGlitter;496491 wrote: That study seems to prove what I have almost always maintained: that if you remove guns from good people, it will put the people to a disadvantage. If guns never existed period, there would be no problem but the fact is they do and the bad guys will always have access. Always. So keep good strong laws about guns but don't remove them from the hands of the good citizens.
Post this in the anit-nuke thread as well. :-6

Daniyal · Post by **Daniyal** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:08 pm

Jason McCarty;362893 wrote: What's your stand on this issue?

Only Coward's Need Gun !

panzermk2 · Post by **panzermk2** » Sat May 23, 2009 9:44 pm

Daniyal;1087693 wrote: Only Coward's Need Gun !

Interesting only cowards? Here are some pictures from Yad Vashem. I wonder how the Jews in the camps felt about the cowards with guns that freed them?

FYI

I became a coward when I turned 17 and enlisted in the US Army as a Tanker in the Cavalry to help defend the country that has given me so much. My wife was 82AB paratrooper also. My father could not serve due to health but my uncle was Master Chief of the USS Nimitz. My great uncle was a AA gunner on fuel tankers in the North Atlantic in WWII dodging U-boat Wolf Packs to bring fuel to England. My great grand father served in France three times in WWI in the Field Artillery.

I guess we are all cowards then and the the types like you who hide behind in safe places calling us names are the true Heroes.

This Memorial Day thank a vet or a current soldier and if you didn't on Victory Day last week SHAME on you.

qsducks · Post by **qsducks** » Sat May 23, 2009 9:45 pm

Rapunzel;362896 wrote: Take every gun, bullet and armament and melt them down to make fences or aeroplanes or something.

Guns maim and kill. A gun has never done anything good. And too many innocent people have been killed.

The world would be a better place if guns had never existed!

Yup I agree.

panzermk2 · Post by **panzermk2** » Sat May 23, 2009 9:47 pm

Well at least I know not to invite you over when my Jewish friends are visiting.

qsducks · Post by **qsducks** » Sat May 23, 2009 10:03 pm

panzermk2;1193488 wrote: Well at least I know not to invite you over when my Jewish friends are visiting.

Since you seem to be a newbie...how dare you judge me! I don't give a cr*p who's visiting you...I would treat them like I would want to be treated no matter their religion...get off your high horse.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun May 24, 2009 4:40 am

panzermk2;1193486 wrote: FYI

I became a coward when I turned 17 and enlisted in the US Army as a Tanker in the Cavalry to help defend the country that has given me so much. My wife was 82AB paratrooper also. My father could not serve due to health but my uncle was Master Chief of the USS Nimitz. My great uncle was a AA gunner on fuel tankers in the North Atlantic in WWII dodging U-boat Wolf Packs to bring fuel to England. My great grand father served in France three times in WWI in the Field Artillery.

I guess we are all cowards then and the the types like you who hide behind in safe places calling us names are the true Heroes.

This Memorial Day thank a vet or a current soldier and if you didn't on Victory Day last week SHAME on you.
Thanks, coward.

From a retired coward, US Air Force. :yh_flag

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Sun May 24, 2009 5:20 am

Killing is easy. No gun needed. just determination. My brother killed some of Mao's men with a hatchet. He claimed it was better than a knife in hand-to-hand combat. It was compact, easy to carry, quiet and powerful.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun May 24, 2009 5:29 am

K.Snyder;496402 wrote: I can see the theory about restricting the freedoms people have involving gun rights, but I just can't quite get passed this...

This is quoted from an article written by Joyce Lee Malcolm in response to Great Britain banning almost all private firearm ownership and all handgun ownership since 1997.

"Gun Control in England: The Tarnished Gold Standard, written by historian Joyce Lee Malcolm and published in the fall 2004 issue of Journal on Firearms & Public Policy:

[Between 1997 and 2003] crimes with [banned firearms] have more than doubled.... In 2002, for the fourth consecutive year, gun crime in England and Wales rose — by 35 percent for all firearms, and by a whopping 46 percent for the banned handguns. Nearly 10,000 firearms offenses were committed....

Clearly since the ban criminals have not found it difficult to get guns and the balance has not shifted in the interest of public safety....

In the four years from 1997 to 2001 the rate of violent crime more than doubled. The UK murder rate for 2002 was the highest for a century....

A recent study of all the countries of western Europe has found that in 2001 Britain had the worst record for killings, violence and burglary, and its citizens had one of the highest risks in the industrialized world of becoming victims of crime....

I personally believe that firearms can act as a deterrent against crime, but to be honest I am for whatever works, and because of this I am forced to look at the evidence.

Leave the UK out of it. It's a completely different situation from the states and the comparisons go nowhere and are completely pointless. One thing writers like joyce lee malcolm don't seem able to grasp or even understand is that the hand gun ban was bought in in response to overwhelming public demand. They also like to use statistics selectively. Gun crime in the UK is a fraction of what it is in the states and is confined mainly to certain areas in some cities.

panzermk2 · Post by **panzermk2** » Sun May 24, 2009 4:46 pm

Actually when adjusted per capita England as of 2 years ago has passed the USA in gun murders and is well on it's way to pass the USA in total gun murders.

When guns are illegal only criminals will have them.

Also Hitler was elected by over whelming numbers, that alone dose not make for a good basis of whether some thing is good or bad.

Chockygirl · Post by **Chockygirl** » Sun May 24, 2009 5:01 pm

Jason McCarty;362893 wrote: What's your stand on this issue?

I HATE GUNS!!

When I was making plans to travel to the U.S in 2007,that was the main thing that worried me the most that folk have the right to own and carry a gun.

At one stage,I had a heated argument with a racist bloke who objected to the black man getting on the airport train before him,and at the time,I did wonder if he had a gun and would be willing to use it if he became angry enough with me and my views.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon May 25, 2009 12:32 am

panzermk2;1193725 wrote: Actually when adjusted per capita England as of 2 years ago has passed the USA in gun murders and is well on it's way to pass the USA in total gun murders.

When guns are illegal only criminals will have them.

Also Hitler was elected by over whelming numbers, that alone dose not make for a good basis of whether some thing is good or bad.

What possible relevance does that have in a thread about gun ownership in the US? It's a peculiarly American problem why don't you leave everybody else out of it? Your statistics prove nothing and are out of context. It get really annoying when some american insist we live in terror of criminals because we are not allowed to own guns. Quite frankly It's a load of bollocks. People who want to own hand guns are generally regarded as dangerous nutters in the UK. The candidate standing on a pro gun ticket in the stirling by-election post dunblane needed police protection.

Actually Hitler wasn't. He had about a third of the votes when he became chancellor he took control in a coup-the first people he locked up were the liberals and left wingers who were his political opponents-imprisoned them without trial. Now which democratic nation recently gave their government the power to do just that? It's also the reason why proportional representation was imposed on germany after ww2-it prevents a party getting control of the most seats despite having a minority of the votes-as often happens with a first past the post system it's a major problem we have.

I gather the democrats now use PR for their presidential primaries-seems to have made a difference there.

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Mon May 25, 2009 2:31 am

Chockygirl;1193729 wrote:

I HATE GUNS!!

When I was making plans to travel to the U.S in 2007,that was the main thing that worried me the most that folk have the right to own and carry a gun.

At one stage,I had a heated argument with a racist bloke who objected to the black man getting on the airport train before him,and at the time,I did wonder if he had a gun and would be willing to use it if he became angry enough with me and my views.

Hi Chocky,

:yh_rotfl We're not living in the wild west anymore in the States and only certain people tote guns.

Yes, many people are racist, but you'll find them all over the world. I wouldn't get into an argument with anyone who is nasty. You never know what they'll do.

I live in the States and don't know anyone who totes a gun. I do know some people who use guns for hunting.

Erik · Post by **Erik** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:55 pm

I have a question for you who support gun control. Why? Can you give me one logical reason? The people who would do harm with a firearm would never hand them over, and they have ways of getting them under the radar regardless of any laws. All it would do is disarm the responsible portion of our population!

Do you feel that simply owning a gun makes a person want to go out and and shoot people? More people are killed every year from heart attacks and car accidents (just to name a few) than from gun violence (accidential and intentional). Should we outlaw fatty foods and cars? according to the line of thinking that most gun control freaks go by then we should.

The simple fact remains that the vast majority of gun owning Americans are lawfull, peacefull, respectfull citizens who have no desire to harm another person. All they desire is the ability to protect themselves and their loved ones if the unthinkable happens.

As for myself, I own a few weapons and carry a .40 cal handgun concealed (lawfully) almost everywhere I go and have done so for over 3 years. Why? its simple, I dont want to be helpless to protect my wife, children or myself. I dont look for trouble, in fact I take even greater care to avoid it because im armed.

And a AK-47 rifle that I take it to the range now and then and practice my sharp shooting.

And in the end, if any government body tries to force the American people to hand over their guns it will be war, it will never happen. (look what happened the last time someone tried to take them).

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:10 am

panzermk2;1193725 wrote: Actually when adjusted per capita England as of 2 years ago has passed the USA in gun murders and is well on it's way to pass the USA in total gun murders

That's great! The UK is beginning to do well at something!!

Erm, just a minute. Where do these figures that you bandy about actually come from?

panzermk2 · Post by **panzermk2** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:19 am

There are a bunch of places on the net that have them listed . Or you can get them from the home office and the FBI yourself.

The NRA website has all the info including the lies Hand gun control inc still spreads around. It was so funny a few years ago an major anti-gun Senator in a sworn state used HCI's info as fact. It was well known through out the net it was BS and he got censured for it when it came out under additional testimony that his HCI info was false and completely made up..

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:16 am

panzermk2;1193725 wrote: Actually when adjusted per capita England as of 2 years ago has passed the USA in gun murders and is well on it's way to pass the USA in total gun murders.

When guns are illegal only criminals will have them.

Also Hitler was elected by over whelming numbers, that alone dose not make for a good basis of whether some thing is good or bad.

panzermk2;1199080 wrote: There are a bunch of places on the net that have them listed . Or you can get them from the home office and the FBI yourself.

The NRA website has all the info including the lies Hand gun control inc still spreads around. It was so funny a few years ago an major anti-gun Senator in a sworn state used HCI's info as fact. It was well known through out the net it was BS and he got censured for it when it came out under additional testimony that his HCI info was false and completely made up..

Talk about made up facts!

According to the Office of National Statistics the total number of fatalities due to gun use during a crime in 2007/8 was 53 (including cases where the gun was used as a blunt instrument) - down from 72 the year the gun ban was introduced (2000/1). The total number of homicides (murder and manslaughter) over the same period was 763 or 14.1 / million of the population so only 7% of homicides involve guns.

After briefly continuing to rise after the introduction of the gun ban, the number of gun crimes has consistently fallen from its peak of 24,094 in 2003/4 to at current level of 17,343 in 2007/8 - a fall of 28%.

Would you care to show that this is greater than the equivalent US figures?

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:10 pm

panzermk2;1193725 wrote: Actually when adjusted per capita England as of 2 years ago has passed the USA in gun murders and is well on it's way to pass the USA in total gun murders

panzermk2;1199080 wrote: There are a bunch of places on the net that have (the figures) listed

I don't believe it. Where?

panzermk2 · Post by **panzermk2** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:29 pm

Your wrong and I will be happy to prove it. I do not have the links currently But I will post them later. Murder is England's fastest growing segment.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:30 pm

panzermk2;1199182 wrote: Your wrong and I will be happy to prove it. I do not have the links currently But I will post them later.

I look forward to it - we can match sources and see whose are the most credible.

panzermk2 · Post by **panzermk2** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:32 pm

Here is one. This was written in 2002 but is still very relevent.

England Murder Rates vs USA

panzermk2 · Post by **panzermk2** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:35 pm

Before you say this guy is stupid bla bla bla here is a link for information about him.

Thomas Sowell | Home

Thomas Sowell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:38 pm

panzermk2;1199187 wrote: Here is one. This was written in 2002 but is still very relevent.

But it says "While England has not yet reached the American level of murders".

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:47 pm

Long in opinion and *very* short in facts and figures.

For example, when he says :-

Moreover, in recent years the murder rate in England has been going up under still more severe gun control laws,

What years is he talking about, by how much.

Mostly he appears to be saying that, whilst we don't have that many murders we have lots of robberies.

To be honest, I would discount anything from an NRA site as biassed to a point where it is unreliable :-

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panzermk2 · Post by **panzermk2** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:57 pm

Handgun Bans: The British Experience The crime rate in London is now higher than the crime rate in New York. Crimes with firearms have risen dramatically since the ban on handgun ownership was passed by Parliament. ("Gun law stalks Britain`s," The Express, May 14, 2001)

Accidental Deaths And Firearms Accidental firearm deaths are at an all-time low, among the entire U.S. population and among children in particular. In 2006, there were 642 accidental firearm-related deaths, including 54 among children. (National Center for Health Statistics)

Concealed Handgun Laws States that adopted nondiscretionary concealed-handgun laws saw murders decreased by at least 8%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robberies by 3%. The murder rates of women permit-holders fell by as much as five times the drop of their male counterparts. (More Guns, Less Crime, John R. Lott, Jr., University of Chicago Press, 1998)

Violent Crime Three out of four violent crimes committed in the U.S. do not involve firearms. Since 1991, the number of privately owned firearms in the U.S. has increased by 70-75 million, and the nation's murder rate has decreased 43%. (BATFE and FBI)

Commentaries On The Laws Of England In his Commentaries on the Laws of England (1765-1769), the foundation of all legal education in England and the U.S. for a century, the great English jurist, Sir William Blackstone, discussed "the principle absolute rights which appertain to every Englishman" under the English Bill of Rights of 1689, and observed, "[T]o vindicate these rights, when actually violated or attacked, the subjects of England are entitled . . . lastly, to the right of having and using arms for self-preservation and defense.

Brady Campaign Flunks Math Again! Friday, February 06, 2009

On January 12, the FBI released preliminary crime date for calendar year 2008, indicating that the nation's murder rate has fallen to a 43-year low, and the nation's total violent crime rate has fallen to a 35-year low. The data suggest that since violent crime peaked in 1991, the nation's murder rate has fallen 46 percent, and the nation's total violent crime rate has fallen 41 percent. The FBI will publish final data for 2008 later this year.

In the same time frame, federal, state and local gun control laws have been eliminated or made less restrictive, Americans have been buying over 4 million new guns every year, and the number of guns (including semi-automatic and other firearms that use standard magazines that hold more than 10 rounds) is at an all-time high. Less gun control has coincided with less crime. Pretty simple stuff.

For most people, that is.

On February 4, the anti-gun Brady Campaign looked at the historically low crime rates and concluded otherwise. "Most states have weak or non-existent gun laws that help feed the illegal gun market, allow the sale of guns without Brady background checks and put families and children at risk," the group claimed.

Brady made the claim in conjunction with the release of its annual "state scorecard" gimmick, in which the anti-gun group "scores" each state from zero to 100, giving more points for more gun control laws, without regard to whether the laws have any positive effect. Brady used to give out school-like letter grades, but abandoned that concept when people noticed that the group was giving most states Ds and Fs when violent crime was low and declining.

Scores of 0-59 points are still worth an "F," and scores of 60-69 points are still worth a "D," however. And with that in mind, Brady gave 48 states an "F," one state a "D," and California got a "C." The average score for the 50 states was 17.7. As Brady put it, "Once again, the scores for most states are abysmal. No states got a better score for 2008 than for 2007. Five states saw their scores drop."

Since Brady gives the states worse scores every time crime rates go down, all we can add is "Amen."