qu'ils mangent de la brioche. North Korea

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:58 am

Marie Antoinette is known (incorrectly) as the women who made the grave mistake of uttering “let them eat cake or as the French say "qu'ils mangent de la brioche." I am not sure if those were the exact words, but the concept is indisputable. Put enough pressure on the people, ignore their basic needs and bad things are going to happen, like a revolution and overthrowing of the government.

Now let’s apply that to North Korea, a dictatorship of the worst kind, a country accused of exporting weapons used by terrorists, of violating basic human rights of intentionally starving its people while spending great sums on large military and nuclear ambitions. The most recent sanctions by the UN intended to accomplish exactly what I don’t know exempt providing humanitarian aid, in other words food to the people of North Korea. Do we have this right? While the government spends perhaps billions on military related items, the rest of the world is expected to feed its people.

I recall a television special a few years back, I think hosted by Diane Sawyer, based in North Korea. They took pictures in the streets when they we allowed to, they interviewed people closely scrutinized by handlers and they went into a classroom and spoke to children. I was struck by the degree of adoration of the “leader. It was a surreal environment with the people appearing to be brainwashed and with no concept of the outside world. In this environment where the government is focused only on remaining in power how can diplomacy succeed? What is the motivation for the North Korean leaders to change anything? They have a captive population that knows no better.

Now for that humanitarian aid, as harsh as it may sound, providing food to North Korea is probably the worst thing to do. Such aid takes the pressure off the regime and mollifies the people. The only way things have a chance of changing is change brought about by the people and the army and the best way to do that is to expose the regime for what it is and that means that other countries cannot provide a means for it to escape its responsibilities to the people. Certainly no one wants to see people starve or to be governed by a megalomaniac for that matter, but bringing such existence to an end is not easy among generations of people brainwashed into compliance. Conditions that are intolerable bring about change, mitigating those conditions artificially prolongs the abuse. :-1

What are your views on this subject?

Post by **spot** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:03 pm

A nationful of American students reciting the Pledge of Allegiance every morning while saluting the Stars and Stripes seems indistinguishable from where I'm stood. Living on arms exports, massive military expenditure, insane levels of patriotic fervor? Clean your own house before criticizing.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:06 pm

spot;1203378 wrote: A nationful of American students reciting the Pledge of Allegiance every morning while saluting the Stars and Stripes seems indistinguishable from where I'm stood. Living on arms exports, massive military expenditure, insane levels of patriotic fervor? Clean your own house before criticizing.

You must be standing in a very strange place if you are unable to distinguish between the United States and North Korea. Your comments don't deserve any more of my time. Now I remember why I lost interest in this forum.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:01 pm

The tension between the two Korea's continues, with families still divided by an invisible line marking their boundaries.

Does the UN supervise the food distribution if given to North Korea, so it is given to those who need it?

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:44 am

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1203577 wrote: You must be standing in a very strange place if you are unable to distinguish between the United States and North Korea. Your comments don't deserve any more of my time. Now I remember why I lost interest in this forum.

I can distinguish perfectly well thank you, I gave an example where the behaviour was indistinguishable.

You want some litmus tests? The US turns blue and North Korea red? North Korea isn't fueled by pornography or endemic racism.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:54 am

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1203374 wrote: The most recent sanctions by the UN intended to accomplish exactly what I don’t know exempt providing humanitarian aid, in other words food to the people of North Korea. Do we have this right? While the government spends perhaps billions on military related items, the rest of the world is expected to feed its people.

What are your views on this subject?

The rest of the world is not *expected* fo feed[1] the populace of North Korea, but it can if it wants. Do we have the right to not interfere, and let people starve just because we don't like the politics of the regieme? Of course, although I would disagree with this course of action.

[1] Humanitarian aid is not just food.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:57 am

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1203577 wrote: You must be standing in a very strange place if you are unable to distinguish between the United States and North Korea.

There are certain similarities in the respect mentioned, though, aren't there? Non-conformists being sanctioned, all that sort of thing?

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:57 am

spot;1203671 wrote:

You want some litmus tests? The US turns blue and North Korea red? North Korea isn't fueled by pornography or endemic racism.

I do not think the United States is fueled by pornography and racism. It is just your opinion, spot.

There is certain bias among the Koreans themselves, about specific geographic locations and place of birth. It existed prior to the war, and continues afterwards.

And I know this is true from personal experience-I have a brother and sister who are Korean. It made a big difference during their years growing up here, when introduced to the Korean communities living here, when their birthplaces were mentioned it made a difference in how they were treated in that group.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:04 am

chonsigirl;1203585 wrote: Does the UN supervise the food distribution if given to North Korea, so it is given to those who need it?

Yes. An interesting point for consideration is the the thoughts of the North Koreans in receipt of food aid from the UN. Does it make them hold the rest of the world in higher, or less, regard?

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:18 am

chonsigirl;1203677 wrote: I do not think the United States is fueled by pornography and racism. It is just your opinion, spot.I realize you'd need to register in order to read it but I'll link to Sunday's http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/opini ... n4.html?em "Editorial Observer: Even Now, There’s Risk in ‘Driving While Black’ By BRENT STAPLES June 14, 2009" and quote from it:People who believed that racism was on the wane were mightily shocked by the research into the effect of race on hiring policies that appeared in the 2007 book “Marked: Race, Crime and Finding Work in an Era of Mass Incarceration,” by the Princeton sociologist Devah Pager. After sending carefully selected test applicants to apply for low-level jobs with hundreds of employers, Ms. Pager found that criminal convictions for black men seeking employment were, in many contexts, “virtually impossible to overcome,” partly because those convictions reinforced powerful, longstanding stereotypes.

The stigma of conviction turned out to be less damaging for whites. Indeed, white men who claimed to be fresh out of prison were just as likely to be called back for second interviews as black men with no history of criminal involvement. The young black men were best-case applicants — bright, well-spoken college students posing as high school graduates. But racial stereotypes prevented employers from seeing their virtues.

“Being black in America today,” Ms. Pager writes, “is just about the same as having a felony conviction in terms of one’s chances of finding a job.”

So. It's not just my opinion. I've no reason to think that sort of embedded effect exists in North Korea. It might, for all I know, happen in South Korea but that's a different ball-game, the South Koreans live in a US client satrapy.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:20 am

Ah spot, the Korea's had their viewpoints long before US intervention. Although I am not sure when it started, since I never researched it, it probably was after the Japanese time period.

Racism in America-(I see you quoted from an editorial, not hard news, IMO) it exists, mostly in the form of reverse prejudice and gender prejudice. All I can say is that is my personal experience, as I went from school to school interviewing. No one wanted a white female, and they definitely were hesitant to take anyone with a higher degree level than them.

I do not think there is any place on Earth, sad to say, that does not have some form of bias, one way or another.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:29 am

chonsigirl;1203727 wrote: I see you quoted from an editorial, not hard news, IMOI'd count “Marked: Race, Crime and Finding Work in an Era of Mass Incarceration,” by the Princeton sociologist Devah Pager from 2007 as hard news, personally. It's a controlled experiment by a qualified researcher.

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/644839.html provides excerpts and a brief peer comment. http://www.ccja-acjp.ca/en/cjcr300/cjcr301.html gives an academic review. I can't see how her evidence can be considered at fault in a thread like this.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:38 am

I shall read that one on my return, I'm marking the link now spot.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:35 am

That is an accurate synopsis of the prison system, the imbalance of racial numbers in proportion to the population. I think if you looked at individual states you would see the disproportion even more.

there is a strong link between race and crime, both real and perceived, and yet the implications of this relationship remain poorly understood.

It is a good start at an examination of the issue, and as the author states, a way to suggest a resolution to disparities that remain.

To enlarge the perspective, here is a graph on numbers including other ethnic groups.

Project America: Crime: Prison Population: Prison Population by Race

A link to a look of other countries besides the United States.

Race and crime: a biosocial analysis - Google Books

The disproportions look similar. I do not know this author, he has the same name as a Nascar driver as I am looking at sources.

Attached files

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:59 pm

spot;1203684 wrote: I realize you'd need to register in order to read it but I'll link to Sunday's http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/opini ... n4.html?em "Editorial Observer: Even Now, There’s Risk in ‘Driving While Black’ By BRENT STAPLES June 14, 2009" and quote from it:People who believed that racism was on the wane were mightily shocked by the research into the effect of race on hiring policies that appeared in the 2007 book “Marked: Race, Crime and Finding Work in an Era of Mass Incarceration, by the Princeton sociologist Devah Pager. After sending carefully selected test applicants to apply for low-level jobs with hundreds of employers, Ms. Pager found that criminal convictions for black men seeking employment were, in many contexts, “virtually impossible to overcome, partly because those convictions reinforced powerful, longstanding stereotypes.

The stigma of conviction turned out to be less damaging for whites. Indeed, white men who claimed to be fresh out of prison were just as likely to be called back for second interviews as black men with no history of criminal involvement. The young black men were best-case applicants — bright, well-spoken college students posing as high school graduates. But racial stereotypes prevented employers from seeing their virtues.

“Being black in America today, Ms. Pager writes, “is just about the same as having a felony conviction in terms of one’s chances of finding a job.

So. It's not just my opinion. I've no reason to think that sort of embedded effect exists in North Korea. It might, for all I know, happen in South Korea but that's a different ball-game, the South Koreans live in a US client satrapy.

Does racism exist, sure it does in every country in the world and in every society within every country. It has for all time and will continue so unfortunately. It is part of human nature. What is not tolerable is transfer of that into violence and outright discrimination that prevents one from living a full life.

There are some employers who no doubt discriminate, but most do not in terms of job opportunities if for not other reason than they do not want to end up in court. I am sitting in a large office where at least 40% of the employees are minority and no they do not have all the lower paying jobs. There is a large African American middle class you hear little about and does not get the headlines while the 70% failure to graduate high school in the inner cities and the incredibly high out of wedlock births do.

Employers who hire based on race and not skills or qualification do so at their own peril while someone else will pick up that talent. If you ask me if I would hire a black person (or any person) with a criminal record I would say likely no. But if you aksed me if I would hire a black person with a good education, good skills and a track record I would and have several times.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:09 pm

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1205199 wrote: Does racism exist, sure it does in every country in the world and in every society within every country. It has for all time and will continue so unfortunately. It is part of human nature. What is not tolerable is transfer of that into violence and outright discrimination that prevents one from living a full life.

There are some employers who no doubt discriminate, but most do not in terms of job opportunities if for not other reason than they do not want to end up in court. I am sitting in a large office where at least 40% of the employees are minority and no they do not have all the lower paying jobs. There is a large African American middle class you hear little about and does not get the headlines while the 70% failure to graduate high school in the inner cities and the incredibly high out of wedlock births do.

Employers who hire based on race and not skills or qualification do so at their own peril while someone else will pick up that talent. If you ask me if I would hire a black person (or any person) with a criminal record I would say likely no. But if you aksed me if I would hire a black person with a good education, good skills and a track record I would and have several times.
I refer you back to the evidence in the report quoted from in the weekend's New York Times. It disagrees with your opinion vehemently. Perhaps you know of equivalent academic studies that show your opinion has been upheld?