A Muslim On board....I'm Muslim...dont be scared

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:30 pm

Abram Is Muslim;1203380 wrote: You Can watch that report by the NBC, as I remember

YouTube - 20000 Americans Convert to Islam Every Year

And even the CNN approved the conversion of 1.5 millions American into Islam till now, in little years.

According to Dr. Sayyid Syeed, secretary-general of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), there are between 6 and 8 million Muslims in the United States today. The New York Times, which has its own agenda, placed the number between 2 and 4 million two years ago. Dr. Diana Eck, who is working on the subject at Harvard University, believes the correct figure is somewhere in between.

How much of the growth is due to immigration also is hard to ascertain. The U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) provides information only on the places of origin of immigrants, and not on their religion. The INS data therefore provides a general picture which can become distorted in detail.

For example, the Arabs who come from various parts of the Middle East are not all Muslims. Similarly, immigrants from the Asian subcontinent can be Muslims, Hindus or Christians. While several organizations and researchers are collecting data on Muslims in America, to date there is no authoritative count. What is acknowledged by all, however, is that their numbers are growing rapidly.

And whats the point sure I dont deny that , people convert to different religions , but still Islam is the fastest growing,And even CNN approved that, even if it used specisific pics, like talking about Christianty spreading and using pictures to refer to them as a naked African in the forest , anyways the report is enough, and by the way there are two islamic counteries in Europe.

CNN - Fast-growing Islam winning converts in Western world - Apr. 14, 1997

First, the UK government has decided that terrorism by Muslims in the name of Islam is actually unrelated to Islam, or is even anti-Islamic.

Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams says that Islamic law in Great Britain "seems unavoidable."

I wish ur lil TV start reporting the Christian terrorism groups,and u can just take a look on the thread talking about "did the Bible cause terrorism" , and you can just take a lil look on my Blog, I wish your TV show you some Baptist hanging (what Christians call Niggers) to get rid of them as the Baptist church believes in south of US. Thankyou for applying the link. It can be interpreted as proganda or the truth..... who really knows?

First of all, i am in total agreement with gmc. ..

I have noticed that a seemingly innocent opening post to introduce yourself has descended into what i see as an attack on America.... ( I think your words to your photographs was 'thankyou America' , a chance to quote passages and now a rather defensive attitude toward Islam. The paragraph i have highlighted shows anger to me. Why are you so angry? Why feel the need to point out how many Americans are converting to Islam? Does it really matter?

As for our 'lil tv' reporting on Christian terrorism groups....... who said anything about Muslims being part of terrorism groups? I don't recall any post where any poster has implied that muslims are terrorists. Yet, your paragraph seems to tie in with your defensive title of your thread.

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:30 pm

Spot , U r really One of the best members , if u werent the best I met here really

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:33 pm

oscar;1203414 wrote: Thankyou for applying the link. It can be interpreted as proganda or the truth..... who really knows?

First of all, i am in total agreement with gmc. ..

I have noticed that a seemingly innocent opening post to introduce yourself has descended into what i see as an attack on America.... ( I think your words to your photographs was 'thankyou America' , a chance to quote passages and now a rather defensive attitude toward Islam. The paragraph i have highlighted shows anger to me. Why are you so angry? Why feel the need to point out how many Americans are converting to Islam? Does it really matter?

As for our 'lil tv' reporting on Christian terrorism groups....... who said anything about Muslims being part of terrorism groups? I don't recall any post where any poster has implied that muslims are terrorists. Yet, your paragraph seems to tie in with your defensive title of your thread.

No need to Comment :yh_neutra

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:36 pm

Abram Is Muslim;1203419 wrote: No need to Comment :yh_neutra
I think your signature sums it up. I shall leave it at that.

Welcome anyway :-6:-6

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:37 pm

oscar;1203420 wrote: I think your signature sums it up. I shall leave it at that.

Welcome anyway :-6:-6

thank you for your welcome

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:39 pm

Abram Is Muslim;1203422 wrote: thank you for your welcome Your welcome...... you should stick around :-6:-6:-6

Chockygirl · Post by **Chockygirl** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:53 pm

gmc;1203397 wrote: I would be extremely hostile to the introduction of sharia law in the UK just as i would be opposed to the introduction of canon law and for the same reason.

It's the 21st century the age of enlightenment has come and gone we should not be allowing the religious of any kind to have any say in the making of our laws. Secular societies are generally tolerant religious ones are not. Millions have died because of religious conflicts we should perhaps stop being so tolerant. Anyone else claiming belief in an invisible friend that talks to them we would regard as insane or just laugh at them but because it is religious belief we are supposed to be careful not to offend their sensibilities.

the only discrimination and bigotry we tolerate is from the religious. the most narrow minded arrogant bigoted people I have ever met have invariably claimed adherence to one or other of the faiths.

Muslims aren't scary, Christians aren't scary, their belief they have god given right o sgove their faith down everybody's throats and niot be criticised that is scary. this religious revival we seem to be having that is scary. have a look at god TV, if that doesn't depress you it should. Send me money and save your soul and people fall for it.:-5

A very interesting and well written response-I find myself nodding in agreement with all your points.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:55 pm

Chockygirl;1203494 wrote:

A very interesting and well written response-I find myself nodding in agreement with all your points.

gmc is acustomed to folk nodding with him, only they usually nod off in his presence :sneaky:

Chockygirl · Post by **Chockygirl** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:59 pm

oscar;1203496 wrote: gmc is acustomed to folk nodding with him, only they usually nod off in his presence :sneaky:

Really?:wah:

I find his comments to be usually very intelligent and well expressed.

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:07 pm

Im stil offering to answer any Question about Islam , the view of God , woman , love or anything:-6

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:09 pm

Chockygirl;1203499 wrote:

Really?:wah:

I find his comments to be usually very intelligent and well expressed. He's not too bad before he takes his medication..... it's afterwards that we have to worry about. You can always tell when he's had the medication as he slips these words into every one of his posts 'GORDON IS A MORON', It's actually a reverse physcological disorder. It stems from his deep love and admiration for Gordon Brown and his government but due to his disorder, he lapses into an almost Tourettes type of world where the reverse comes out of his mouth.

Chockygirl · Post by **Chockygirl** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:15 pm

oscar;1203507 wrote: He's not too bad before he takes his medication..... it's afterwards that we have to worry about. You can always tell when he's had the medication as he slips these words into every one of his posts 'GORDON IS A MORON', It's actually a reverse physcological disorder. It stems from his deep love and admiration for Gordon Brown and his government but due to his disorder, he lapses into an almost Tourettes type of world where the reverse comes out of his mouth.

:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

Gordon is on the way out,isn't he?

Even his own government have expressed a no confidence vote in him.

What other 'talent' do have for PM over there?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:33 pm

Chockygirl;1203509 wrote: :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

Gordon is on the way out,isn't he?

Even his own government have expressed a no confidence vote in him.

What other 'talent' do have for PM over there?

Without boring the pants off you..... yes, His Lovliness Gordon Brown did appear to be on the way out this week after a revolt...... (most of the country is revolted by him) but he's hung on in there and is now refusing to move until a general election which is estimated in approx 10 months time. The recent Euro elections saw his party thrashed into third place so it's very certain that we will be having a new PM.

Here is a selection of possibilitys for you:

Attached files

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:04 pm

oscar;1203511 wrote: Without boring the pants off you..... yes, His Lovliness Gordon Brown did appear to be on the way out this week after a revolt...... (most of the country is revolted by him) but he's hung on in there and is now refusing to move until a general election which is estimated in approx 10 months time. The recent Euro elections saw his party thrashed into third place so it's very certain that we will be having a new PM.

Here is a selection of possibilitys for you:

And what does the above have to do with the initial post or do you just love to change the subject?:)

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:14 pm

Lon;1203532 wrote: And what does the above have to do with the initial post or do you just love to change the subject?:) On refection.... my pontification on the topic of gmc's medication and subsequent lapse into the implications for the country given the recent trend in the polls, is some-what diversional. I thus refer the Honerable Gentleman back to the initial debate.

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:14 pm

oscar;1203511 wrote: Without boring the pants off you..... yes, His Lovliness Gordon Brown did appear to be on the way out this week after a revolt...... (most of the country is revolted by him) but he's hung on in there and is now refusing to move until a general election which is estimated in approx 10 months time. The recent Euro elections saw his party thrashed into third place so it's very certain that we will be having a new PM.

Here is a selection of possibilitys for you:

That What I wanted to Say Mr.Lon:-6

minks · Post by **minks** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:21 pm

Welcome to the garden. For someone so young, you have handled yourself well among our more "critical" members.

I hope you enjoy your stay here, and hope your faith, and your fiance bring you everything you wish for.

I am very non religious, my faith is quite simply the golden rule. "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Enjoy your stay in the garden.

Cheers

Minks

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:41 pm

Abram Is Muslim;1203505 wrote: Im stil offering to answer any Question about Islam , the view of God , woman , love or anything:-6

Do you think the early American Indians put butter and salt on their pocorn or did they just eat it plain.

Im thinking if they ate it plain they must have been in between buffalo hunts because gross.

Victoria · Post by **Victoria** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:50 pm

gmc;1203397 wrote: I would be extremely hostile to the introduction of sharia law in the UK just as i would be opposed to the introduction of canon law and for the same reason.

It's the 21st century the age of enlightenment has come and gone we should not be allowing the religious of any kind to have any say in the making of our laws. Secular societies are generally tolerant religious ones are not. Millions have died because of religious conflicts we should perhaps stop being so tolerant. Anyone else claiming belief in an invisible friend that talks to them we would regard as insane or just laugh at them but because it is religious belief we are supposed to be careful not to offend their sensibilities.

the only discrimination and bigotry we tolerate is from the religious. the most narrow minded arrogant bigoted people I have ever met have invariably claimed adherence to one or other of the faiths.

Muslims aren't scary, Christians aren't scary, their belief they have god given right o sgove their faith down everybody's throats and niot be criticised that is scary. this religious revival we seem to be having that is scary. have a look at god TV, if that doesn't depress you it should. Send me money and save your soul and people fall for it.:-5

I have been reading this thread but tended to stay away from posting on it for the fear of the zelous and pious backlash I was sure would ensue.

I have to say GMC's post pretty much encompasses what I would have said.

Wrap hatered and bigorty in any flimsy religious claptrap and no-one is allowed to say anything but woe betide non believers for saying anything to counter balence it.

Oscar speaks of the BNP being given the right to free speech and how they are pelted with eggs because people dont agree with thier hateful policies ( myself included).. nothing much is done about it yet if you were to pelt a religious fanatic with eggs when they spout off about homos burning in hell or unmarried women being harlots and you would be in prison so fast ..and why? because they have the right to spread whatever hatered they want so long as they can find a single filmsy religious argument to back them up.

Belief is about faith.. a persons own individual faith in whatever god they choose.

You cannot force faith onto another person. That must come from within themselves so to be honest all these threads ranting about one faith being better than another or bitching about 'them picking on us' like a bunch of 5 yr olds in a school playground really does nothing more than turn a lot of us away from Religion in disgust.

Disgust that stems from the fact that the religion is not about a mans personal faith and belief and love of his god but of trying to prove that his belief is right and his is the best and the most holy.

This is not faith and love. This is not God, Jehovah, Allah, or Budda

This is everything that wrong with human beings, it is the faliure to accept others for what they are and trying to re-enforce you own belief by trying to enforce your own belief system onto them..

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:55 am

Victoria;1203621 wrote: I have been reading this thread but tended to stay away from posting on it for the fear of the zelous and pious backlash I was sure would ensue.

I have to say GMC's post pretty much encompasses what I would have said.

Wrap hatered and bigorty in any flimsy religious claptrap and no-one is allowed to say anything but woe betide non believers for saying anything to counter balence it.

Oscar speaks of the BNP being given the right to free speech and how they are pelted with eggs because people dont agree with thier hateful policies ( myself included).. nothing much is done about it yet if you were to pelt a religious fanatic with eggs when they spout off about homos burning in hell or unmarried women being harlots and you would be in prison so fast ..and why? because they have the right to spread whatever hatered they want so long as they can find a single filmsy religious argument to back them up.

Belief is about faith.. a persons own individual faith in whatever god they choose.

You cannot force faith onto another person. That must come from within themselves so to be honest all these threads ranting about one faith being better than another or bitching about 'them picking on us' like a bunch of 5 yr olds in a school playground really does nothing more than turn a lot of us away from Religion in disgust.

Disgust that stems from the fact that the religion is not about a mans personal faith and belief and love of his god but of trying to prove that his belief is right and his is the best and the most holy.

This is not faith and love. This is not God, Jehovah, Allah, or Budda

This is everything that wrong with human beings, it is the faliure to accept others for what they are and trying to re-enforce you own belief by trying to enforce your own belief system onto them.. :yh_clap:yh_clap:yh_clap

Who has been the most vocal of late insisting we shun the BNP?........... The Church !!!!

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:19 am

spot;1203404 wrote: The Sharia law under discussion relates solely to civil law, as best I understand the Archbishop. Other religious communities have a similar legal remit when it comes to enforcing contractual obligations, I don't see why Muslims should be any less catered for.

If people want to follow sharia law or canon law then let them so long as all parties are willing to accept it but in a dispute neither should in any way should be able to overrule civil law. It should never in any way be superior to laws agreed by society to govern itself. left to the religious we would have no divorce, property rights for women, children would still be the chattels and at the disposal pf the father. The list goes on and on where the decision has been taken that justice is served by moving away from blindly following religious doctrine. I see no reason at all why religious law should be of concern to anyone except to those who choose to obey it and it should not be imposed on anyone. The catholic church bans the use of contraceptives-fine if you are a catholic don't use them but don't try and impose your doctrine on anyone else. Same with sharia law, keep your doctrine to yourself. No one stops you obeying it if you choose so why do you need to have it recognised and given the force of law in civil society.

posted by abram is muslim

I still dont agree with you , sure after I respect ur opinion , but I believe as an Engineer , that the Engineer who design a machine is the Only One who know the best conditions and rules should be followed to keep that machine doing its best and work with no troubles in its life cycle , and just a lil maintaince daily would keep it working well , and if its faced accidential problems , by maintaining , it will work with the same effeciency as before,that Engineer should leave a manual for that machine , let me say that manual is the Shareea, or the Laws of God , at least im talking about my faith now , and sure God has the highest example , and nothing nor noOne like him.

the problem that the factory may face , will be because of the uneducated supervisors I used , and that problems is the same with the Civil Laws, the Manual made by the desinger him self , is the perfect one , but the workers and supervisors who applay that manual , may not be qualified enough , its the same with Civil Laws....

Sorry Engineering View

I don't agree with you either. You live in a secular society where you can worship as you please and essentially live life as you choose. Why do you feel the need to try and force those who don't share your beliefs to obey laws supposedly compiled by an imaginary being.

The laws of the bible you claim to be the laws of god may be real to you-and you are welcome to kill as many Christians as you like as you argue over who is worshipping the right god just as there are many Christians who seem perfectly willing to kill Muslims for following a false god. All religious warfare is at heart completely irrational. All religion is irrational. Don't expect everyone to respect your beliefs and take you seriously when you claim your actions are justified by the word of god and that excuses all atrocities and the imposition of religious doctrine on people who want nothing to do with it at all.

To be blunt you are talking a load of cobblers. Your religious faith I have no issues with but the truth of it is your opinion and it is not one I share.

Right now in the middle east the west is a distraction without which sunni and shia would be at each others throat with those still alive at the end of it all convinced god was on their side. In fact I think you could put a good case that the west is being used as a foil by the sudis against iran and iraq. I mean saudis carry out a terrorist attack on the US and they invade iraq!!

God is great and I am going to beat you around the head with a club seems to be the favoured means of discourse amongst the godly. it's a toss up which is worse, christian or muslim. The unco guid are a pain in the backside whatever faith they follow. Curiously though the muslims I have met tend to be fairly open minded, it's the wee frees that cause all the trouble round here.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:51 am

Abram Is Muslim;1203578 wrote: That What I wanted to Say Mr.Lon:-6

What you're seeing is deliberate thread destruction by off-topic distraction. ForumGarden as a whole has never found a way to prevent it but you deserve at least an apology for our impotence. Without thread integrity we never manage to have a rational discussion about anything at all. The proportion of posters who think it's clever is very small but they simply refuse to listen to reason.

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:55 am

gmc;1203641 wrote: posted by abram is muslim

I don't agree with you either. You live in a secular society where you can worship as you please and essentially live life as you choose. Why do you feel the need to try and force those who don't share your beliefs to obey laws supposedly compiled by an imaginary being.

The laws of the bible you claim to be the laws of god may be real to you-and you are welcome to kill as many Christians as you like as you argue over who is worshipping the right god just as there are many Christians who seem perfectly willing to kill Muslims for following a false god. All religious warfare is at heart completely irrational. All religion is irrational. Don't expect everyone to respect your beliefs and take you seriously when you claim your actions are justified by the word of god and that excuses all atrocities and the imposition of religious doctrine on people who want nothing to do with it at all.

To be blunt you are talking a load of cobblers. Your religious faith I have no issues with but the truth of it is your opinion and it is not one I share.

Right now in the middle east the west is a distraction without which sunni and shia would be at each others throat with those still alive at the end of it all convinced god was on their side. In fact I think you could put a good case that the west is being used as a foil by the sudis against iran and iraq. I mean saudis carry out a terrorist attack on the US and they invade iraq!!

God is great and I am going to beat you around the head with a club seems to be the favoured means of discourse amongst the godly. it's a toss up which is worse, christian or muslim. The unco guid are a pain in the backside whatever faith they follow. Curiously though the muslims I have met tend to be fairly open minded, it's the wee frees that cause all the trouble round here.

Im still saying the same about the civil war , what make you feel that everybody gonna respect it , or agree about it , so many wanna abuse drugs , then why you dont let them,Dont say it will mess up their life, because the wine mess it already.

Dont allow sexual freedom ,and then leave them with ADS , and say I gave them their freedom , what the freedom means for you ....??

The freedom in Islam means doing anything and everything with giving attention and not messing up the souls, brains ,families,the money and community.

How ...??

Youare free to do anything but things lead for killing you or messing up your bodies , or the other bodies.

You shouldnt smoke , or put your self on things hurt your body and mess it up , and sure the same about the others.

You shouldnt abuse drugs or drink wine that take ur brain away , drunk people, or people on drugs mess up their brains.

You should respect the meaning of the family the smallest unit in the community construction,and respecting the familymeans respecting the meaning of love and unity,respecting your wife , and never cheat , respect your kids , and never leave them alone, and not to cheat on your wife , you shouldnt have sex out of marriage , not even before marriage , sex before marriage make the people compare their wives,and not feel comfortable with them, thats really a big problem face many , many times those men who had sex out of marriage alot ,sometimes will feel unjustified with their wives, respecting the family, means being ready for having the family,and not giving your kids for adoption, because your dont feel like facing the responsabilitiesall of that wont grow in a guy having sex with this and those before marriage , and the girls for him is just a lil fun .

You community , you shouldnt do things mess communiity , and all what I mentioned before will mess up the community , for example , killing ur soul or other soul , messing up ur brain , or others, messing up your family , thats all affect a piece of the whole community, if there wasnt a pnuishment that will increase and the whole community will be messed up.

Lets take a little look on what the civil laws did in US;

13 women got rapped every hour , 3 persons get killed every hour , 55 robbary every hour.

11 million crimes were reported in the year 2007 alone.

Look at that link friend,

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/

You can review the lastest crimes rates in US.

and about killing the other side , first let me talk about my faith , Islam never say kill the non believers ,and I think I mentioned many verses here in one of the threads, but at the same time Im asking you didnt the Athiests messed up the world enough,even if you compared them with the blind believers, did you forget what the Sovit unions did by the believers....??

It was sending people for jail, if they were captured with religiouse books , Muslims or Christians , both face that there.

CanYou imagine the wars happened because of the racism or the nationalities , soooooooooooo much , did you forgot the old troubles between England and France, even before Jesus's birth , thats all were warsover things but religions .

Do you deny the Terrorism groups over the racist.....??

My point here , the violence is related to the personalities ,nor the faithes, Yes some faithes got corrupted , and through the soft discussion people could find the truth , but at the same tome Athiesm made the world suffer enough.......

: Invite (mankind, O Muhammad SAW) to the Way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Inspiration and the Quran) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided. Quran(16:125)

There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower. (Quran 2:256)

Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity. (Quran 60:8)

And about the wars in the Islamic counteries, its political wars all, but least , and we can discuss them in seperate thread.

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:59 am

spot;1203672 wrote: What you're seeing is deliberate thread destruction by off-topic distraction. ForumGarden as a whole has never found a way to prevent it but you deserve at least an apology for our impotence. Without thread integrity we never manage to have a rational discussion about anything at all. The proportion of posters who think it's clever is very small but they simply refuse to listen to reason.

:DIm the sorry Spot , sorry I didnt mean You

Im sorry Spot:D

I ment someone else

whose posts are mean to me enough ...

I'm sorry Spot

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:07 am

oscar;1203267 wrote: One must concur that one's grasp of numerical equations has declined in accuracy since the invention of the calculator.

Start->run->calc, if you need one for this sort of thing.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:15 am

Abram Is Muslim;1203678 wrote: :DIm the sorry Spot , sorry I didnt mean You

Im sorry Spot:D

I ment someone else

whose posts are mean to me enough ...

I'm sorry Spot

If you read what I wrote you'll see that I was criticizing others in this thread for taking it off topic, there's no word of criticism attached there to your behaviour. You started the thread, you've stuck to the topic, you're beyond reproach.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:15 am

oscar wrote:

The British government have already passed 'Sharia Law' for muslims in cases of divorce etc. It does not apply to our criminal justice proceedings.

I'm not sure what you mean by "already passed Sharia Law". What do you mean by it? It is most certainly *not* the case that "Sharia law" or any other takes precedence over any law of the UK.

Abram Is Muslim;1203380 wrote: Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams says that Islamic law in Great Britain "seems unavoidable."

It is not necessarily incompatible, see above.

Regarding the Archbish of C, though, my opinion is that he probably spends more time preening and admiring himself than anything else.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:20 am

Bill Sikes;1203683 wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by "already passed Sharia Law". What do you mean by it? It is most certainly *not* the case that "Sharia law" or any other takes precedence over any law of the UK. I merely meant that some communities use Sharia Law in civil disputes.

It is not necessarily incompatible, see above.

Regarding the Archbish of C, though, my opinion is that he probably spends more time preening and admiring himself than anything else.

Well said and frankly should keep his opinions re: politics and law to himself.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:23 am

oscar;1203685 wrote: Well said and frankly should keep his opinions re: politics and law to himself.

So what did "The British government have already passed 'Sharia Law' for muslims in cases of divorce etc" mean?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:27 am

spot;1203686 wrote: So what did "The British government have already passed 'Sharia Law' for muslims in cases of divorce etc" mean? Oh alright then..... we are allowing Sharia law in civil cases to re-phrase what i said.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:29 am

oscar;1203687 wrote: we are allowing Sharia law in civil cases to re-phrase what i said.

But it is subordinate, is it not.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:29 am

oscar;1203687 wrote: Oh alright then..... we are allowing Sharia law in civil cases to re-phrase what i said.

Show me an instance. I don't believe you're right.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:35 am

spot;1203692 wrote: Show me an instance. I don't believe you're right.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 749183.ece

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:47 am

oscar;1203697 wrote: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 749183.ece

"Sheikh Faiz-ul-Aqtab Siddiqi, whose Muslim Arbitration Tribunal runs the courts, said he had taken advantage of a clause in the Arbitration Act 1996.

Under the act, the sharia courts are classified as arbitration tribunals. The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case."

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:50 am

oscar;1203697 wrote: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 749183.ece

Ah. Arbitration councils.

As the Times article says:Jewish Beth Din courts operate under the same provision in the Arbitration Act and resolve civil cases, ranging from divorce to business disputes. They have existed in Britain for more than 100 years, and previously operated under a precursor to the act. It's scarcely new. You'd stop the one without stopping the other, would you? Either party can elect to go to a court under UK law instead if they choose to.

An Arbitration council applies whatever rules have been voluntarily agreed between the parties beforehand. "The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case". You and I could go to an Arbitration council and agree to be bound by the toss of a coin and it would be legally binding afterwards.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:51 am

Bill Sikes;1203702 wrote: "Sheikh Faiz-ul-Aqtab Siddiqi, whose Muslim Arbitration Tribunal runs the courts, said he had taken advantage of a clause in the Arbitration Act 1996.

Under the act, the sharia courts are classified as arbitration tribunals. The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case." Agree Bill but if both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power, then Sharia law stands in civil cases weather you call it arbitration tribunal or court. If parties are agreed in giving the power then they will abide by it's rulings..... no difference...

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:13 am

spot;1203672 wrote: What you're seeing is deliberate thread destruction by off-topic distraction. ForumGarden as a whole has never found a way to prevent it but you deserve at least an apology for our impotence. Without thread integrity we never manage to have a rational discussion about anything at all. The proportion of posters who think it's clever is very small but they simply refuse to listen to reason.

Im not impotent. You may be but Im not. This is libelous slanderous and an out right lie.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:16 am

Abram Is Muslim;1203675 wrote:

Im still saying the same about the civil war , what make you feel that everybody gonna respect it , or agree about it , so many wanna abuse drugs , then why you dont let them,Dont say it will mess up their life, because the wine mess it already.

Dont allow sexual freedom ,and then leave them with ADS , and say I gave them their freedom , what the freedom means for you ....??

The freedom in Islam means doing anything and everything with giving attention and not messing up the souls, brains ,families,the money and community.

How ...??

Youare free to do anything but things lead for killing you or messing up your bodies , or the other bodies.

You shouldnt smoke , or put your self on things hurt your body and mess it up , and sure the same about the others.

You shouldnt abuse drugs or drink wine that take ur brain away , drunk people, or people on drugs mess up their brains.

You should respect the meaning of the family the smallest unit in the community construction,and respecting the familymeans respecting the meaning of love and unity,respecting your wife , and never cheat , respect your kids , and never leave them alone, and not to cheat on your wife , you shouldnt have sex out of marriage , not even before marriage , sex before marriage make the people compare their wives,and not feel comfortable with them, thats really a big problem face many , many times those men who had sex out of marriage alot ,sometimes will feel unjustified with their wives, respecting the family, means being ready for having the family,and not giving your kids for adoption, because your dont feel like facing the responsabilitiesall of that wont grow in a guy having sex with this and those before marriage , and the girls for him is just a lil fun .

You community , you shouldnt do things mess communiity , and all what I mentioned before will mess up the community , for example , killing ur soul or other soul , messing up ur brain , or others, messing up your family , thats all affect a piece of the whole community, if there wasnt a pnuishment that will increase and the whole community will be messed up.

Lets take a little look on what the civil laws did in US;

13 women got rapped every hour , 3 persons get killed every hour , 55 robbary every hour.

11 million crimes were reported in the year 2007 alone.

Look at that link friend,

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/

You can review the lastest crimes rates in US.

and about killing the other side , first let me talk about my faith , Islam never say kill the non believers ,and I think I mentioned many verses here in one of the threads, but at the same time Im asking you didnt the Athiests messed up the world enough,even if you compared them with the blind believers, did you forget what the Sovit unions did by the believers....??

It was sending people for jail, if they were captured with religiouse books , Muslims or Christians , both face that there.

CanYou imagine the wars happened because of the racism or the nationalities , soooooooooooo much , did you forgot the old troubles between England and France, even before Jesus's birth , thats all were warsover things but religions .

Do you deny the Terrorism groups over the racist.....??

My point here , the violence is related to the personalities ,nor the faithes, Yes some faithes got corrupted , and through the soft discussion people could find the truth , but at the same tome Athiesm made the world suffer enough.......

: Invite (mankind, O Muhammad SAW) to the Way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Inspiration and the Quran) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided. Quran(16:125)

There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower. (Quran 2:256)

Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity. (Quran 60:8)

And about the wars in the Islamic counteries, its political wars all, but least , and we can discuss them in seperate thread.

I appreciate you are writing in a language that is not your first one-more han i can do. But you're not really making much sense here. If you want to make specific points we can argue about them one by one. Just for the record i am well aware of the great benefit muslim civilisation was to europe in the middle ages just as I am well aware of the impact the celts and vikings the mongols and all the other various tribes have had as they collided and interacted with each other throughout history. We tend to forget the east has influenced us in many ways as well.

I am not religious. Don't bother quoting the koran or the bible because I accept neither of them as being the word of god so it's meaningless as an authority on anything.

Religious societies-especially monotheistic ones-by their very nature are intolerant and undemocratic. Our concepts of freedom and liberty and democracy owe nothing to Christianity-they pre-date it by a long way.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:17 am

Nomad;1203718 wrote: Im not impotent. You may be but Im not. This is libelous slanderous and an out right lie.

You'll be claiming next that you listen to reason.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:51 am

oscar;1203704 wrote: Agree Bill but if both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power, then Sharia law stands in civil cases weather you call it arbitration tribunal or court. If parties are agreed in giving the power then they will abide by it's rulings..... no difference...

This is because it's allowable under UK[1] law, not because it's separate or different. It *is* under UK[1] law. There is nothing remarkable in this.

[1] Not sure whether this is the case in Scotland.

ZAP · Post by **ZAP** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:03 am

Abram, you seem to be very well versed on Islam and have all the right quotes and material and have studied it at great lengths. I applaud you for your fervent belief. Having said that, I might also add that I have applauded others' fervent belief in and devotion to Catholicism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Mormonism, Protestantism, Judaism, Atheism and a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses, all of which I count among my friends and relatives. I am agnostic (still searching for the truth) but I think a religion is good for what it does for that particular individual, if it makes him or her a better person and if it doesn't do harm to others. The Golden Rule, as mentioned before, is a good idea.

Now, to address your quote:

Abram Is Muslim;1203505 wrote: Im stil offering to answer any Question about Islam , the view of God , woman , love or anything:-6

" . . .woman, love or anything" That's a pretty broad statement. "Answer any question" ? Wouldn't "discuss any issue about" be a better choice of words? Are you saying you have the same level of acquired learning and level of understanding about these other topics as you do about Islam or is it only as these topics relate to Islam?

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:10 am

Zapata;1203803 wrote: Abram, you seem to be very well versed on Islam and have all the right quotes and material and have studied it at great lengths. I applaud you for your fervent belief. Having said that, I might also add that I have applauded others' fervent belief in and devotion to Catholicism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Mormonism, Protestantism, Judaism, Atheism and a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses, all of which I count among my friends and relatives. I am agnostic (still searching for the truth) but I think a religion is good for what it does for that particular individual, if it makes him or her a better person and if it doesn't do harm to others. The Golden Rule, as mentioned before, is a good idea.

I agree with you, sure what does the religion does by the persons is tha main point .

A Catholic TV asked Joseph Estes- Why he Converted to Islam

Famous people who converted to islam ..

Those are Christian been touched by the justice,

The Most loves American girl Rachel Corrie 5th Grade Speech I'm here because I care

GEORGE GALLOWAY VIVA PALESTINA GAZA CONVOY, 14 February 2009

Muhammad- Legacy of a Prophet (PBS Full Movie)

And Here Jews moved for Justice, our Orthdox brothers in Judism,

Free Palestine: Zionist Jews killing Orthodox Jews

Orthodox Jewish Rabbi saying that according to Torah, Israel doesn't have the right

Zapata;1203803 wrote: Now, to address your quote:

" . . .woman, love or anything" That's a pretty broad statement. "Answer any question" ? Wouldn't "discuss any issue about" be a better choice of words? Are you saying you have the same level of acquired learning and level of understanding about these other topics as you do about Islam or is it only as these topics relate to Islam?

Answer , discussion or anything

it wont be different as long as we want to know the truth , and Im ready to discuss any topic NshAllah "If God will that"

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:40 am

Abram Is Muslim;1203836 wrote: Answer , discussion or anything

it wont be different as long as we want to know the truth , and Im ready to discuss any topic NshAllah "If God will that"Perhaps you'd like to read http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/islam ... ality.html and tell us whether men having sex with young boys is culturally or legally acceptable in Egypt. I know it's a suggestion which might rightly outrage you but it's been raised and an answer from someone local would be helpful.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:53 am

Abram Is Muslim;1203836 wrote:

I agree with you, sure what does the religion does by the persons is tha main point .

A Catholic TV asked Joseph Estes- Why he Converted to Islam

Famous people who converted to islam ..

Those are Christian been touched by the justice,

The Most loves American girl Rachel Corrie 5th Grade Speech I'm here because I care

GEORGE GALLOWAY VIVA PALESTINA GAZA CONVOY, 14 February 2009

Muhammad- Legacy of a Prophet (PBS Full Movie)

And Here Jews moved for Justice, our Orthdox brothers in Judism,

Free Palestine: Zionist Jews killing Orthodox Jews

Orthodox Jewish Rabbi saying that according to Torah, Israel doesn't have the right

Answer , discussion or anything

it wont be different as long as we want to know the truth , and Im ready to discuss any topic NshAllah "If God will that"

Is there only your truth ?

Because of where you live you were taught to believe the way you do.

If you had been born in Alabama theres a strong possibility you would be touting Southern Baptism as your faith.

India...Hindu, Italy...Catholisicm etc.

Is there a possibility "God" has a much larger plan than you can possibly understand for all the peoples of the world ?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:34 am

Bill Sikes;1203796 wrote: This is because it's allowable under UK[1] law, not because it's separate or different. It *is* under UK[1] law. There is nothing remarkable in this.

[1] Not sure whether this is the case in Scotland.

Sharia courts set to bring Muslim law to bear in Scottish cities - Scotsman.com News

Why should we accept that religious groups have a right to their own courts? I don't care if it's Christian or muslim If people want to accept arbitration that's fine but in no way should it ever be able to overrule the normal courts or have it's judgement accepted as legally enforceable. "God's law" is a fiction that we would be best to not lend credence to. I would suggest they are doing this by the back door as no rational thinking person would tolerate such nonsense and the public response if done openly would be quite hostile to the idea. The day any church court of any type claims superiority over secular law I'll be out on the streets myself. We have enough problems with bigotry as it is.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:16 pm

gmc;1203941 wrote: (snip)religious groups have a right to their own courts? I don't care if it's Christian or muslim If people want to accept arbitration that's fine but in no way should it ever be able to overrule the normal courts or have it's judgement accepted as legally enforceable.

a) Any "law" from such is subordinate to UK law.

b) Correct, it's fine.

c) It cannot (see (a)) and doesn't.

d) Under UK law (see (a) and (b)) it can and does.

So what's the big deal?

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:25 pm

spot;1203846 wrote: Perhaps you'd like to read http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/islam ... ality.html and tell us whether men having sex with young boys is culturally or legally acceptable in Egypt. I know it's a suggestion which might rightly outrage you but it's been raised and an answer from someone local would be helpful.

read my answer in my thread Homosexuality and the religions

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:32 pm

gmc;1203941 wrote: Sharia courts set to bring Muslim law to bear in Scottish cities - Scotsman.com News

Why should we accept that religious groups have a right to their own courts? I don't care if it's Christian or muslim If people want to accept arbitration that's fine but in no way should it ever be able to overrule the normal courts or have it's judgement accepted as legally enforceable. "God's law" is a fiction that we would be best to not lend credence to. I would suggest they are doing this by the back door as no rational thinking person would tolerate such nonsense and the public response if done openly would be quite hostile to the idea. The day any church court of any type claims superiority over secular law I'll be out on the streets myself. We have enough problems with bigotry as it is.

Again Im saying With respect to your opinion

I disagree at all , first the Civil Laws failed in protecting the community , I dont know , may be it help or encourage the crime, because those Civil laws are affected by the Politicans and the Media pressure,and even the money pushed in the elections affect indirctly in making those laws..

Check that Link for Crimes in US from 1960 till 2007

It never saved the community , it even increase the crimes rates..

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:12 pm

Hmmm quite an entrance. Interesting.

Hello Abram.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:28 pm

Oh oh I have a question.

why if a person leaves Islam they have to be killed? Is that a cultural thing or is it Islam? Oh and if Islam is the truth then which sect is the real truth ? I see a lot of diversity in Islam from country to country.

And is there still a price on the head of Ayaan Hirsi Ali for writing the book "Caged Virgin" and "Infidel" and the film "Submission"?