People of FG...... We need idea's.... please contribute.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:59 pm

This is a serious thread.

First of all, we must say that we welcome American, Canadian, Australian and all nationalities input, so please join in.

We all know here in Britain We are looking at a General Election by next June. We all know that there is serious discord with the present government here and opposition parties offer very little alternative.

Open Mind and myself would like you all to tell us what proposals you would like to see a brand new party propose in a new manifesto.

You don't have to have an insight into politics, your opinions will be most valued.

If you could set a proposal, what would your idea's be on :

1) Health

2) Education

3) The Judicial system

4) Policing

5) The benifit system

6) Immigration

7) The EU

8) Finance

9) Anti-Social- Behaviour and crime rate

Every view point will be valued.

Thankyou

sharedfastlane · Post by **sharedfastlane** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:31 am

Health: to have meetings with those in the front line, i.e nurses, health visitors, to ask how they view the service offered and what they need to achieve the standards they are taught. To give patients and their relatives, visitors a chance to speak up. and not by using a tick box form that is restrictive.

Thank you for the thread.

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:19 am

The EU: Join the EU currency, I hate having to exchange my money to go to the UK when the rest of Europe is on a single currency.

Although not on your list I would look at foreign policy (the others are internal and do not directly affect me so I would not be able to base an opinion on based on any experience). GB seems to sit on a fence with regards to US vs Europe relations and don’t seem clear on foreign policy. The government is part of EU but is very closely link militarily to the US policies. I think there needs to be a better defined stand from GB on their position in the world.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:56 am

9) Anti-Social- Behaviour and crime rate

Stop trying to eliminate crime with gun control. Gun control does not make you safe. It does make the criminal and thug safer though.

qsducks · Post by **qsducks** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:04 am

mikeinie;1219524 wrote: The EU: Join the EU currency, I hate having to exchange my money to go to the UK when the rest of Europe is on a single currency.

Although not on your list I would look at foreign policy (the others are internal and do not directly affect me so I would not be able to base an opinion on based on any experience). GB seems to sit on a fence with regards to US vs Europe relations and don’t seem clear on foreign policy. The government is part of EU but is very closely link militarily to the US policies. I think there needs to be a better defined stand from GB on their position in the world.

Definately join the EU...the one reason we never went to Northern Ireland is because we would have had to exchange our euros for pounds...so we bagged that part of the trip.:-5

el guapo · Post by **el guapo** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:07 am

qsducks;1219595 wrote: Definately join the EU...the one reason we never went to Northern Ireland is because we would have had to exchange our euros for pounds...so we bagged that part of the trip.:-5

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo way please

qsducks · Post by **qsducks** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:09 am

el guapo;1219597 wrote: noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo way please

I thought the euros were a pain at first but got used to them after a day:wah:.

farmer giles · Post by **farmer giles** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:40 am

qsducks;1219598 wrote: I thought the euros were a pain at first but got used to them after a day:wah:.

sue said i joined europe in the bath room

she said jim european everywhere :sneaky::sneaky::o

qsducks · Post by **qsducks** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:43 am

farmer giles;1219605 wrote: sue said i joined europe in the bath room

she said jim european everywhere :sneaky::sneaky::o

:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl...yeah, but I hope your cleaning it up:wah:

farmer giles · Post by **farmer giles** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:44 am

qsducks;1219606 wrote: :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl...yeah, but I hope your cleaning it up:wah:

well i am a **** taker :yh_rotfl

qsducks · Post by **qsducks** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:46 am

farmer giles;1219607 wrote: well i am a **** taker :yh_rotfl

tosser:wah:

minks · Post by **minks** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:53 am

oscar;1219445 wrote: This is a serious thread.

First of all, we must say that we welcome American, Canadian, Australian and all nationalities input, so please join in.

We all know here in Britain We are looking at a General Election by next June. We all know that there is serious discord with the present government here and opposition parties offer very little alternative.

Open Mind and myself would like you all to tell us what proposals you would like to see a brand new party propose in a new manifesto.

You don't have to have an insight into politics, your opinions will be most valued.

If you could set a proposal, what would your idea's be on :

1) Health

2) Education

3) The Judicial system

4) Policing

5) The benifit system

6) Immigration

7) The EU

8) Finance

9) Anti-Social- Behaviour and crime rate

Every view point will be valued.

Thankyou

I say don't join the EU, retain your status as individuals.

Health, always, lets face it everybody needs medical assistance at some point and time, perhaps a health care system like ours, we like it.

Education for sure, that is your future. Aid for everybody in these tough times to retrain and get into fields where jobs are available. Ya every govt should be pushing for education.... look at all the countries world wide where the govt covers your education costs. (Canada is a poor example as we pay dearly for education out of our pockets)

Judicial... bring back the death penalty.

Policing and benifits I don't know about.... sorry

Immigration, yes bring in tougher laws so you have people coming into your country who can contribute to the nation, that can speak the language and that will work in jobs that they are needed. Make sure immigrants are not coming into the country and stealing jobs from your youth, or lesser educated... ie.... a man works at the local convenient store, next thing he makes manager, he then kicks out everyone who works there and employes his family.... not fair to the locals, the youth, seniors etc.

Finance, ya give everybody loads of money ahahaha

Anti social behavior... you guys naw I am not seeing it hehehehehehe

qsducks · Post by **qsducks** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:56 am

Immagration - yup, we have the same probs here too. As soon as the immigrant makes it to the top they throw out the workers & bring in family.

minks · Post by **minks** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:00 am

qsducks;1219616 wrote: Immagration - yup, we have the same probs here too. As soon as the immigrant makes it to the top they throw out the workers & bring in family.

Us to yet on the other hand, some of our best specialty doctors here in this city come from foreign countries. i call that contributing, they have not foisted out other doctors, they have added to our medical profile hugely. They did not overtake businesses... that is the kind of contribution I like seeing, I welcome anyone from another nation that brings with them good experience.

Secondly on immigration, if you have any gang ties... go back home we don't want ya.

I could go on.

qsducks · Post by **qsducks** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:02 am

minks;1219619 wrote: Us to yet on the other hand, some of our best specialty doctors here in this city come from foreign countries. i call that contributing, they have not foisted out other doctors, they have added to our medical profile hugely. They did not overtake businesses... that is the kind of contribution I like seeing, I welcome anyone from another nation that brings with them good experience.

Secondly on immigration, if you have any gang ties... go back home we don't want ya.

I could go on.

In Pennsylvania...doctors are leaving because of the high cost of insurance...as for the gangs I agree...go back is right.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:43 am

Until we get proportional representation all we're going to get is a continuation of the punch and judy show put on by the mediocrities we have as politicians.

1) Health

We have opur own health service thankfully without some of the daft reforms introduced in england.

2) Education

We have a separate education system hopefully interference from Westminster won't **** it up too much. End separate religious schools, and get back to basics. looking at your spelling you have been badly served.

3) The Judicial system

We have a separate legal system. we need to undo the damage done by things like home income packs-introduced tp deal with problems in the english system that were not extant in the scottish one. We don;t have gazumping-you could do with copying scots law-an offer to buy and sell is binding and the signing of contracts a formaility

4) Policing

Separate policing

5) The benifit system

We are fed up subsidising the south of england

6) Immigration

mmmm

7) The EU

We need to top pissing about and take our membership seriously. The bulk of our trade is with eu countries and those idiots that think we can go it alone are well idiots. most of them are english which probably says a lot about the education system.

8) Finance

About time we st6opped subsidising england and kept all the revenue raised here.

9) Anti-Social- Behaviour and crime rate

Yes we have lots of that.

Think I'm going to vote SNP-if only to help get rid of gordon brown

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:02 am

Thankyou to all of you for your ideas. They are to be discussed.

Please let's hear more idea's from you all as they give us a true reflection of what the electorate is fed up with and wants to see changed.

By the way, i forgot to add Foriegn Policey in my opening post.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:07 pm

hoppy;1219587 wrote: 9) Anti-Social- Behaviour and crime rate

Stop trying to eliminate crime with gun control. Gun control does not make you safe. It does make the criminal and thug safer though.

Rubbish!

Care to throw out some statistics to back up your claim?

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:09 pm

mikeinie;1219524 wrote: The EU: Join the EU currency, I hate having to exchange my money to go to the UK when the rest of Europe is on a single currency.

Apart from anything else, have you seen the projected cost of the conversion? It would kill our economy for years to come.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:11 pm

Bryn Mawr;1219871 wrote: Apart from anything else, have you seen the projected cost of the conversion? It would kill our economy for years to come. That's a good point.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:45 pm

These are the policy areas that we feel need to be addressed.

Economy, finance and taxation.

Industry, commerce, employment.

Health.

Education.

Welfare and families.

Transport and highways.

Communications.

Immigration.

Defence.

International relations and foreign policy.

Law, crime and policing.

Local representation.

Discrimination.

Retirement and pensions.

Housing.

Recreation and sport.

Energy.

Agriculture, farming, and fishing.

Any thoughts, contributions, etc. will be seriously considered.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:06 pm

OpenMind;1219890 wrote: These are the policy areas that we feel need to be addressed.

Economy, finance and taxation.

Industry, commerce, employment.

Health.

Education.

Welfare and families.

Transport and highways.

Communications.

Immigration.

Defence.

International relations and foreign policy.

Law, crime and policing.

Local representation.

Discrimination.

Retirement and pensions.

Housing.

Recreation and sport.

Energy.

Agriculture, farming, and fishing.

Any thoughts, contributions, etc. will be seriously considered.
Thankyou Partner.......... you do it so much better than me.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:08 pm

1) Health---Government should promote and subsidise the eating of more vegetables and fruit, and tax heavily chips, pizza, pasta, and most carbs.

2) Education-----Government should discourage education for females beyond basic reading and writing.

3) The Judicial system-----Impose stiff penalties for spitting on the sidewalk and for coveting thy neighbors wife if she is ugly.

4) Policing------Do away with all police and incorporate the Honor System.

5) The benefit system---- Government to make sure that every one benefits.

6) Immigration----Ban immigration of all Romanians and encourage and subsidise immigration of Tibetans and Maldivians

7) The EU-----Egad!!!

8) Finance--------Do away with present currency system and incorporate the use of sea shells and bartering.

9) Anti-Social----Those that demonstrate Anti Social Behavior will be placed into the Judicial and Educational System

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:12 pm

Lon;1219899 wrote: 1) Health---Government should promote and subsidise the eating of more vegetables and fruit, and tax heavily chips, pizza, pasta, and most carbs.

2) Education-----Government should discourage education for females beyond basic reading and writing.

3) The Judicial system-----Impose stiff penalties for spitting on the sidewalk and for coveting thy neighbors wife if she is ugly.

4) Policing------Do away with all police and incorporate the Honor System.

5) The benefit system---- Government to make sure that every one benefits.

6) Immigration----Ban immigration of all Romanians and encourage and subsidise immigration of Tibetans and Maldivians

7) The EU-----Egad!!!

8) Finance--------Do away with present currency system and incorporate the use of sea shells and bartering.

9) Anti-Social----Those that demonstrate Anti Social Behavior will be placed into the Judicial and Educational System
Trust you LON !!!! I'm surprised you haven't put one of your recipee's for ginger shimp stirfry in here as well.

We are trying to be serious.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:16 am

Bryn Mawr;1219871 wrote: Apart from anything else, have you seen the projected cost of the conversion? It would kill our economy for years to come.

Think how much we will save by not having ID cards and all tye other daft things new labour have come up with.

besides have you looked at how much currency fluctuations cost the economy? Despite the recession prices-especially food- are going up because so much we buy is imported and the pound is weak.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:30 am

Now for some controversy.

With the advent of DNA testing to a very high probability of accuracy, the death penalty could be re-introduced for murder and paedophilia providing there is no reasonable doubt. The costs of the tests, where conviction is secured, would be charged to the convicts' estates and/or that of their families.

Any thoughts on this?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:24 am

OpenMind;1220039 wrote: Now for some controversy.

With the advent of DNA testing to a very high probability of accuracy, the death penalty could be re-introduced for murder and paedophilia providing there is no reasonable doubt. The costs of the tests, where conviction is secured, would be charged to the convicts' estates and/or that of their families.

Any thoughts on this?
I'm torn on this one and would need to really thrash this out. It's certainly BNP policey. From stats i've looked at in the past, i have seen no real deterent and reduction in crime in some States of the US for having it. Hmmmm

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:46 am

gmc;1220035 wrote: Think how much we will save by not having ID cards and all tye other daft things new labour have come up with.

besides have you looked at how much currency fluctuations cost the economy? Despite the recession prices-especially food- are going up because so much we buy is imported and the pound is weak. Good points Auld Yin..... No, we've not been started long. We figured that if a blind man and a one eyed man could get elected then anyone could. :rolleyes: You've never been backwards at coming forward so how about you share some of your SNP policies with us to save me the brain numbing task of googling them?

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:01 am

oscar;1220086 wrote: I'm torn on this one and would need to really thrash this out. It's certainly BNP policey. From stats i've looked at in the past, i have seen no real deterent and reduction in crime in some States of the US for having it. Hmmmm

I think that one of the problems in the US is Death Row. It makes a mockery of the death penalty. As far as I am concerned, if a person is found guilty of murder based on irrefutable evidence and the death penalty has been passed, the sentence should be carried out within 24 hours of the sentence. Time would be allowed for family and religious/spiritual preparation.

This is not a sentence I would advocate as a general rule. It would not be used as a deterrent but as a means of protecting the citizens from certain individuals.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:23 am

OpenMind;1220097 wrote: I think that one of the problems in the US is Death Row. It makes a mockery of the death penalty. As far as I am concerned, if a person is found guilty of murder based on irrefutable evidence and the death penalty has been passed, the sentence should be carried out within 24 hours of the sentence. Time would be allowed for family and religious/spiritual preparation.

This is not a sentence I would advocate as a general rule. It would not be used as a deterrent but as a means of protecting the citizens from certain individuals.
Yes, i go along with that especially in cases of Ian Brady and Charles Manson. The stats on the US and the UK for re-offences once out on parole is a little worrying.

The problem i would have, is the margin of error and corrupt police in securing a conviction. The Birmingham 6 and The Guildford 4 spring to mind.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:48 am

oscar;1220114 wrote: Yes, i go along with that especially in cases of Ian Brady and Charles Manson. The stats on the US and the UK for re-offences once out on parole is a little worrying.

The problem i would have, is the margin of error and corrupt police in securing a conviction. The Birmingham 6 and The Guildford 4 spring to mind.

I believe we can deal with corrupt or false evidence by police officers as a separate issue. But, to the point you raise, the death sentence would only be issued if there is no reasonable doubt in the conviction. This could be established by the judge before the jury retire.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:55 am

OpenMind;1220141 wrote: I believe we can deal with corrupt or false evidence by police officers as a separate issue. But, to the point you raise, the death sentence would only be issued if there is no reasonable doubt in the conviction. This could be established by the judge before the jury retire. Yes, when we go into policing, that would include police corruption in securing convictions. Spot had a damn good idea for policing on another thread. I'll ask him to contribute here.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:12 am

gmc;1220035 wrote: Think how much we will save by not having ID cards and all tye other daft things new labour have come up with.

besides have you looked at how much currency fluctuations cost the economy? Despite the recession prices-especially food- are going up because so much we buy is imported and the pound is weak.

For most of the time since EMU we've been on the receiving end of the currency equation so a short period of readjustment is no reason to jump.

The cost of ID cards et al are part of a different equation entirely.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:31 am

OpenMind;1220141 wrote: I believe we can deal with corrupt or false evidence by police officers as a separate issue. But, to the point you raise, the death sentence would only be issued if there is no reasonable doubt in the conviction. This could be established by the judge before the jury retire.

It is not up to the judge to decide if someone is guilty or not. I think you kind of miss the point in having a jury system in the first place.

There have been enough convictions with "irrefutable" evidence that have been overturned in recent years that should make anyone wary of having the death penalty. Not overturned on a technicality but where the evidence is just flat out wrong, inaccurate or was not complete. The death penalty is not a deterrent, most murders are not premeditated but happen in the heat of the moment. We could do with having deaths caused by drunken or dangerous driving being regarded as murder and stiffer sentences being applied.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:47 am

gmc;1220344 wrote: It is not up to the judge to decide if someone is guilty or not. I think you kind of miss the point in having a jury system in the first place.

There have been enough convictions with "irrefutable" evidence that have been overturned in recent years that should make anyone wary of having the death penalty. Not overturned on a technicality but where the evidence is just flat out wrong, inaccurate or was not complete. The death penalty is not a deterrent, most murders are not premeditated but happen in the heat of the moment. We could do with having deaths caused by drunken or dangerous driving being regarded as murder and stiffer sentences being applied.
The notion now is that with advancement of DNA, it's claimed the evidence is 'Irrefutable'.

I was googling today on the subjects of death penalty and trials, and found this;

Witness Intimidation

I think i remember being told about it being a criminal offence to intimidate a witness after a trial.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:01 pm

gmc;1220344 wrote: It is not up to the judge to decide if someone is guilty or not. I think you kind of miss the point in having a jury system in the first place.

There have been enough convictions with "irrefutable" evidence that have been overturned in recent years that should make anyone wary of having the death penalty. Not overturned on a technicality but where the evidence is just flat out wrong, inaccurate or was not complete. The death penalty is not a deterrent, most murders are not premeditated but happen in the heat of the moment. We could do with having deaths caused by drunken or dangerous driving being regarded as murder and stiffer sentences being applied.

It used to be the case that the judge could direct the jury in cases where the evidence irrefutably indicated guilt or innocence. The point here is that the evidence is utterly beyond reasonable doubt as I have already said and repeated. I have also already stated that the death penalty should only be used in certain cases to protect the citizens. It is not intended as a deterrent. I hate having to repeat myself because people don't read my posts properly.

Causing a death accidentally is called manslaughter and your point has been noted.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:35 pm

Bryn Mawr;1219871 wrote: Apart from anything else, have you seen the projected cost of the conversion? It would kill our economy for years to come. An estimated 1.2 to 1.7 % of the GDP or an estimated cost of £31.2 billion according to The Trade and Industry Commitee.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:37 pm

Test Post

Fyrenza · Post by **Fyrenza** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:56 pm

oscar;1220086 wrote: I'm torn on this one and would need to really thrash this out. It's certainly BNP policey. From stats i've looked at in the past, i have seen no real deterent and reduction in crime in some States of the US for having it. Hmmmm

Neither the death penalty, nor ANY of the "punishments," act as a deterrent for one overriding reason:

The criminals do not, for one second, believe that they will be caught, tried and/or convicted.

For me, the death penalty is an humane way of completely removing dangerous threats to the general population, much like "putting down" a rabid dog.

(Although that might sound horrible, i've had about 35 years to think about it:

My family owned a pet monkey that had been taken from it's mother, way too young, and so had no grasp of acceptable behaviour. Even though he wanted to do "right," he had nothing to base his judgements upon.

i watched him live out his life, 35+ years, and could see that the loneliness and confinement drove him crazy. He existed; he didn't live.

i could go on for hours ~ his bosom buddies, a chicken, a kitten/cat; funny things he did; how much i loved him; ...

)

Okay, so what were we monkeying around with, again? :yh_rotfl

(pathetically enough, i DO use that phrase :rolleyes: )

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:50 am

OpenMind;1220372 wrote: It used to be the case that the judge could direct the jury in cases where the evidence irrefutably indicated guilt or innocence. The point here is that the evidence is utterly beyond reasonable doubt as I have already said and repeated. I have also already stated that the death penalty should only be used in certain cases to protect the citizens. It is not intended as a deterrent. I hate having to repeat myself because people don't read my posts properly.

Causing a death accidentally is called manslaughter and your point has been noted.

There are very good reasons why we do not allow judges to do that just as there are very good reasons why it is very hard to fire a judge once appointed. A right to a fair trial in front of your peers is one of the mainstays of our liberties. It is a check agaimst the arbitrary use of power by those in authority. Those who argue that judges should be given the power to just lock up those they think guilty when presented with irrefutable evidence are living in a cloud cuckoo land where there is no corruption or stupidity amongst judges. Bit of history for you.

Trial of William Penn

However flawed it is still the best way of all the others we have tried. We let ourselves be persuaded it is an expensive necessity at our peril.

There are also plenty of cases where the irrefutable evidence has subsequently been proven to be anything but. Had there been the death penalty the Birmingham six would have all been dead.Locking people up for the rest of their lives also serves to protect the public just as effectively as killing them.

Independent Live!: Democracy under threat? The people have their say - UK Politics, UK - The Independent

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:53 am

gmc;1220692 wrote: There are very good reasons why we do not allow judges to do that just as there are very good reasons why it is very hard to fire a judge once appointed. A right to a fair trial in front of your peers is one of the mainstays of our liberties. It is a check agaimst the arbitrary use of power by those in authority. Those who argue that judges should be given the power to just lock up those they think guilty when presented with irrefutable evidence are living in a cloud cuckoo land where there is no corruption or stupidity amongst judges. Bit of history for you.

Trial of William Penn

However flawed it is still the best way of all the others we have tried. We let ourselves be persuaded it is an expensive necessity at our peril.

There are also plenty of cases where the irrefutable evidence has subsequently been proven to be anything but. Had there been the death penalty the Birmingham six would have all been dead.Locking people up for the rest of their lives also serves to protect the public just as effectively as killing them.

Independent Live!: Democracy under threat? The people have their say - UK Politics, UK - The Independent

OK. So the necessity for the independence of the jury is highlighted in the case of William Penn. I'll accept that.

I do not agree with prison for life. Even the very term 'prison' is derogatory. We should not have prisons rather than rehabilitation centres and if a person cannot be rehabilitated, they cannot contribute to society. It is not right to impose the miscreant's upkeep onto the public if they cannot be rehabilitated. Perhaps, then, the death penalty should be reserved for those inmates who cannot be rehabilitated. But in the case of a murderer, we would have to make sure that the system has not been 'played' to obtain release only for the ex-inmate to take another life.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:37 pm

Fyrenza;1220647 wrote: Neither the death penalty, nor ANY of the "punishments," act as a deterrent for one overriding reason:

The criminals do not, for one second, believe that they will be caught, tried and/or convicted.

For me, the death penalty is an humane way of completely removing dangerous threats to the general population, much like "putting down" a rabid dog.

(Although that might sound horrible, i've had about 35 years to think about it:

My family owned a pet monkey that had been taken from it's mother, way too young, and so had no grasp of acceptable behaviour. Even though he wanted to do "right," he had nothing to base his judgements upon.

i watched him live out his life, 35+ years, and could see that the loneliness and confinement drove him crazy. He existed; he didn't live.

i could go on for hours ~ his bosom buddies, a chicken, a kitten/cat; funny things he did; how much i loved him; ...

)

Okay, so what were we monkeying around with, again? :yh_rotfl

(pathetically enough, i DO use that phrase :rolleyes: ) Without me googling stats, have you any idea of figures for dangerous inmates escaping from your prisons and re-offending? I'm looking at British stats but i'd be very interested in American one's as well.

Thanks

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:41 pm

oscar;1220642 wrote: An estimated 1.2 to 1.7 % of the GDP or an estimated cost of £31.2 billion according to The Trade and Industry Commitee.

And who would be paying that cost?

There has been no suggestion that the government would pay it and it would bankrupt many companies in the current economic climate.

The other problem is timescales - we would have been physically incapable of changing our systems within the proposed schedule had they chosen to join in 2003 and a hell of a lot of other companies would have been in the same boat.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:54 pm

Bryn Mawr;1221935 wrote: And who would be paying that cost?

There has been no suggestion that the government would pay it and it would bankrupt many companies in the current economic climate.

The other problem is timescales - we would have been physically incapable of changing our systems within the proposed schedule had they chosen to join in 2003 and a hell of a lot of other companies would have been in the same boat. The only way of paying for it would be to pass the cost on to the public sector. Ultimately, we would see price increases in all services. Certainly the government could not and would not stand the cost without at least burdening the tax payer further,

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:58 pm

oscar;1221944 wrote: The only way of paying for it would be to pass the cost on to the public sector. Ultimately, we would see price increases in all services. Certainly the government could not and would not stand the cost without at least burdening the tax payer further,

Then, as I suggested, it would kill the economy for years to come - companies cannot afford to absorb that level of overhead for an intangable payback that might be decades in the making.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:02 pm

Bryn Mawr;1221947 wrote: Then, as I suggested, it would kill the economy for years to come - companies cannot afford to absorb that level of overhead for an intangable payback that might be decades in the making.
Yes, i'm in agreement with you. The Trade and industry dept suggest it would take this country anything up to 30 years to repay. the argument in the UKIP manifesto also.

Fyrenza · Post by **Fyrenza** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:50 pm

oscar;1221070 wrote: Without me googling stats, have you any idea of figures for dangerous inmates escaping from your prisons and re-offending? I'm looking at British stats but i'd be very interested in American one's as well.

Thanks

Sorry ~ i haven't been back to see this until just now ~

i know that we regularly have escapes of criminals, but they're usually recaptured fairly quickly.

Let me check for the US, however, since i'm referring to here in south Texas.

HERE: http://tpj.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/85/3/270

is exactly what you're looking for, but there's a subscription charge, and i just can't afford it, right now...