More on Obama's healthscare plan

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:29 am

The man Barack Obama consulted on medical matters for over two decades said on Tuesday that the president's vision for health care reform is bound for failure.

Dr. David Scheiner, a 70-year Chicago-based physician who treated Obama for more than 20 years, said he was disheartened by the health care legislation his former patient is championing, calling it piecemeal and ineffectual.

"I look at his program and I can't see how it's going to work," Scheiner told the Huffington Post. "He has no cost control. There would be no effective cost control in his program. The [Congressional Budget Office] said it's going be incredibly expensive ... and the thing that I really am worried about is, if it is the failure that I think it would be, then health reform will be set back a long, long time."

Scheiner, who prefers a more progressive approach to reform, was hesitant about trying to divine the president's motives, although he said he believed that "in his heart of hearts" Obama "may well like a single-payer program."

"His pragmatism is what is overwhelming him." Scheiner added: "I think he's afraid that he can't get anything through if he doesn't go through this incredibly compromised program."

Admitting that he was not a political practitioner, Scheiner said he felt compelled to speak out because of his unique relationship with the president and this critical moment in the health care debate. A champion of a single-payer health care system, Scheiner noted repeatedly that he came to the debate from the perspective of having dealt with the hassles and pitfalls of the current system. His speaking out is part of a larger effort, launched by Physicians for a National Health Program, to push Congress to consider single-payer as an alternative to current reform proposals.

As Scheiner sees it, all alternatives simply fall short. Keeping private insurers in the market, he warns, would simply maintain burdensome administrative costs. He argued further that the pharmaceutical industry is not being asked to make "any kind of significant sacrifices" in the current round of reform negotiations. As for a public health care option, Scheiner insists that the proposal remains vague and inadequate.

"First of all, they haven't really gone into great detail about the public option," he said. "How much is it going to cost, are they going to really undercut private health insurance by a considerable amount? Will there be any restriction that you can get for public option?"

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:43 pm

Why do you care how much it costs ? Our deficit is and aways has been in the red. Its been in the red for Viet Nam, Iraq, Afghanistan, $750.00 hammers, govt. contracts that were grossly overbid, pet projects of senators and congressman who were being lobbied by special interest groups, Governors that take sex vacations in Brazil, congressional per diem raises that exceed their wages in some cases, 5 mil in security detail for Jacksons funeral paid for by a bankrupt state, junket trips by senators paid for by you.......the list is endless.

I dont think its the money that irks you. Its something else.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:39 pm

And I'm not alone.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:51 pm

hoppy;1223146 wrote: And I'm not alone.

Clearly.

That said heres why people like Hannity irk me so much. He calls himself and the people who think like himself good Americans. The rest of us wont be happy until we destroy America. I hope you understand thats not true. The people that disagree with you and your posse love our country as much as you do.

We want different things, things we think will benefit our nation not destroy it.

Instead of bashing your fellow citizens you could if you so choose while still disagreeing with the other sides politics accept that youre not going to get what you want this time around yet you have the choice open to you to make the best of it and support our nation.

4 years of dissent isnt good for anyone and it amounts to whining and bitchng. Not very productive. We are still one nation.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:04 pm

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."

Hannity is the Jerry Springer of political shows. Please stop bringing him up as if he's serious. You just prolong the hype. There's way more relevant targets to shoot at.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:22 pm

Accountable;1223165 wrote: "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."

Hannity is the Jerry Springer of political shows. Please stop bringing him up as if he's serious. You just prolong the hype. There's way more relevant targets to shoot at.

It is relevant because of his exposure. Hes dedicated his life to bringing down the America that doesnt think the way he does. Theres no shortage of people that think the same way, he feeds the machine.

Dissent is fine but at some point in my opinion you have to think ok this isnt doing any good, how can we bring some positivity into the picture. Wed be less divided if we accepted our present circumstances. Nothing you do or say will change the agenda so the moaning hurts, it doesnt help.

It always comes back to tolerance for the greater good which is unity.

At least until the next election. Thats where the power lies.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:45 pm

Nomad;1223169 wrote: Dissent is fine but at some point in my opinion you have to think ok this isnt doing any good, how can we bring some positivity into the picture. Wed be less divided if we accepted our present circumstances. Okay I'm sure I have a different definition of that phrase. We can never improve our circumstances if we accept them. If you mean be realistic about the situation, I think I am. I see it. I don't like it. I rail against it. Rage against the machine, as it were.

Nomad wrote: Nothing you do or say will change the agenda so the moaning hurts, it doesnt help.

It always comes back to tolerance for the greater good which is unity.

At least until the next election. Thats where the power lies.
That's slave mentality. Don't make too much fuss; you'll just make it worse for us.

Moaning hurts what? The progress of our slide away from liberty? Unity under a tyrant is more important than disunity in freedom??

Seriously.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:54 pm

Back to a statement I previously made. The people have spoken. Surely complaining for the next 4 years is counter productive since the effect only makes you feel better. There are no practicalities in self indulgence.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:55 pm

Nomad;1223196 wrote: Back to a statement I previously made. The people have spoken. Surely complaining for the next 4 years is counter productive since the effect only makes you feel better. There are no practicalities in self indulgence.
Counter to what? Silence is taken as consent. I don't consent.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:29 pm

Accountable;1223197 wrote: Counter to what? Silence is taken as consent. I don't consent.

No not consent just the realization that this is the situation we are in and we would more productive as a unified nation.

I didnt like Bushs policies but ranting endlessly would not produce alternative results. His administration had its agenda and that was that. I was stuck with it and I accepted it. Thats the system we live in. We get our say in the polling booth. Im not suggesting you dont have the right to voice your opinion but you could also choose to work with the reality of the present by being wiling to not detioriate what is our future for the next 4 years.

Example: I hate my job. Im surrounded by others that hate theirs too. They smother eachother every day with all the details of what they hate.

I choose to make the best of the situation for the time being because Ill get sucked into the same black hole they live in if I dont walk in there every morning thinking at least some positive thought. Its better for everyone if I do my best every day.

Maybe thats lame but its at the core of what Im trying to get across here.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:01 am

Nomad;1223206 wrote: No not consent just the realization that this is the situation we are in and we would more productive as a unified nation.Productive?

Nomad wrote: I didnt like Bushs policies but ranting endlessly would not produce alternative results. His administration had its agenda and that was that. I was stuck with it and I accepted it. Thats the system we live in. We get our say in the polling booth. Im not suggesting you dont have the right to voice your opinion but you could also choose to work with the reality of the present by being wiling to not detioriate what is our future for the next 4 years.Not fighting against Congress' agenda WILL deteriorate our future. We are going the wrong way!

Nomad wrote: Example: I hate my job. Im surrounded by others that hate theirs too. They smother eachother every day with all the details of what they hate.

I choose to make the best of the situation for the time being because Ill get sucked into the same black hole they live in if I dont walk in there every morning thinking at least some positive thought. Its better for everyone if I do my best every day.

Maybe thats lame but its at the core of what Im trying to get across here.Your job does not harm others. That's the difference.

Obama promised fundamental change, and people were all for that. We were in a war many didn't believe in, we were keeping prisoners without trial. Our president wasn't telling us everything; there were too many secrets. Businesses were exporting jobs. Nobody can trust the criminal politicians owned by big business and their lobbyists. We wanted change. Everybody assumed everybody agreed on what that change was.

Well, the illegal war was already on an exit course; it's being allowed to run that. Obama has handed Afghanistan reins to the military. That's cool so far.

Initial appearances are that Obama wants to distance himself from Europe, or at least the UK, and get closer to the Middle East, China, and the left wing dictators. He even tag teams with Sec State to go on a global apology tour. I doubt the majority of us agree we need to apologize to everybody. I certainly don't.

But wait, domestically congress is pushing through an energy bill designed to distance ourselves from the Middle East and punish American business practices that built the richest and strongest nation in the history of the world. Those same business practices that China and Inda are courting. Won't that cause us to lose jobs, exporting them to Asia?? And how exactly are we to improve Middle East relations? I guess they will appreciate that we're helping to increase demand for their oil in China.

Domestically, nothing's changed. The guy that promised to squash the lobbyists hired a lobbyist on his very first appointment. The guy that promised honesty appointed a tax cheat to run the IRS. The guy that promised transparency is teaming with his party to push through huge complicated legislation too quickly for anyone to read, without allowing debate. What's in those bills? Why the hurry? What's the real ultimate goal? What fundamental changes did Obama mean?

Bri, this isn't disgruntled people bitching about a job their too damn lazy to get out of. This is a concerted effort to fundamentally change our society.

That's progress I don't want.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:36 am

Not fighting against Congress' agenda WILL deteriorate our future. We are going the wrong way!

Unfortunately you happen to be in the minority this time around.

The tides will shift again. Its all about balance.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:49 am

Nomad;1223344 wrote: Unfortunately you happen to be in the minority this time around.

The tides will shift again. Its all about balance.
One man's lone voice in the wilderness doesn't make it wrong. A crowd moving in the wrong direction doesn't make it right.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:22 am

Because you think youre right does that mean others are wrong or are other peoples opinions invalid because theyre not the same as yours ?

I cant say youre wrong because your thoughts are what they are.

I cant say Im right because my thoughts are what they are.

Im not right because my opinions trump yours or because I have divine insight that you dont posess.

Your not wrong because you lack reasoning.

We each dont own the correct answer. What we own is our own thoughts.

Thats where balance and tolerance play an integral part in being productive as neighbors and nations.

Theres a bigger picture at hand than what you think is right. We are a collective community born from different ideals.

In my opinion our biggest problems arise from the inability to bend.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:07 am

Nomad;1223371 wrote: Because you think youre right does that mean others are wrong or are other peoples opinions invalid because theyre not the same as yours ?

I cant say youre wrong because your thoughts are what they are.

I cant say Im right because my thoughts are what they are.

Im not right because my opinions trump yours or because I have divine insight that you dont posess.

Your not wrong because you lack reasoning.

We each dont own the correct answer. What we own is our own thoughts.

Thats where balance and tolerance play an integral part in being productive as neighbors and nations.

Theres a bigger picture at hand than what you think is right. We are a collective community born from different ideals.

In my opinion our biggest problems arise from the inability to bend.
My ideals allow for other individuals' ideals to grow and flourish. the direction our society's been going the past couple of decades imposes on individuals regardless of their ideals and wishes. It has become tyranny of the majority. Does your idea of balance and tolerance include tolerating tyranny? In my opinion one of our biggest problems are that so many of us have become so flexible we are unable to see when we're being run over and taken advantage of.

In other words, I see my position as being assertive - being respectful of others while standing up for myself - and yours as being passive - being overly respectful of others at the expense of yourself.

That sentence really bugs me. "Theres a bigger picture at hand than what you think is right." If I see evil I'm supposed to say, well, if that's what everybody wants, I'll swallow it? What's right IS the bigger picture, Bri. We need to agree on what's right and allow ONLY THAT to be stressed across the society. The rest should only be allowed individually and not imposed on others.