Obama: Basic Standard Of Decency Allows Illegals To Be Treated

cigar898 · Post by **cigar898** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:03 pm

RealClearPolitics - Video - Obama: "Basic Standard Of Decency" Allows Illegals To Be Treated

President Barack Obama said he would be okay with illegal immigrants being treated in emergency rooms in some situations under his health care plan.

Okay. So who will decide who gets treated? Is it the EMTs? The admitting staff? The Docs? What happens if someone is refused treatment and that person sues (everyone loves to sue in this country, it's the new lotto!), will the gov't pay for damages if awarded?

I really don't want my taxes to pay for someone who hasn't contributed also (taxes). I will need all the money I can get from the soon to be broke(en) Social Security Adminstration and to pay for my lawyer once the 'Death Panel' decides that I'm not worth fixing becasue I'm too old.......

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:15 pm

So what are you suggesting, that they be turfed out the door to die?

Post by **spot** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:27 pm

cigar898;1232695 wrote: I really don't want my taxes to pay for someone who hasn't contributed also (taxes).How very inhumane of you.

There's definitely an error in the USA and that's the refusal to eject every single person within the Homeland borders who doesn't have legal residency rights. Fix that and you fix the entire matter covered by the thread. The problem has arisen by refusing to look the issue in the face and removing the root cause, illegality. It makes no difference at all how it gets fixed so long as it's actually done within a respectable timeframe, and I'm talking months not years. For as long as 14 million people are resident within the Homeland but have no legal right to be there the problem isn't going to be mended by the occasional do-gooder lifesaving intervention in an emergency room.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:32 pm

I see nothing wrong with the "illegal immigrants" being treated. If the health care plan goes into effect, it should cover any person in the US. (I am not for the proposed heath care system, but if it happens, all should be treated)

Are they going to set up a panel, to decide who gets care? That whole concept is alarming to me.

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:46 pm

Glad to hear it. :yh_clap

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:01 pm

abbey;1232705 wrote: So what are you suggesting, that they be turfed out the door to die?

Maybe we could bus them to Canada. I hear they have great health care and IT"S FREE.:yh_rotfl

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:25 pm

No real choice in the matter. Would we have medical care withheld until we can verify legal residency? A legal resident may die.

Would we provide medical services until someone verifies the patient is here illegally, then unplug everything and shove him out the door?

No, emergency services have to be blind.

cars · Post by **cars** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:33 pm

Accountable;1232756 wrote: No real choice in the matter. Would we have medical care withheld until we can verify legal residency? A legal resident may die.

Would we provide medical services until someone verifies the patient is here illegally, then unplug everything and shove him out the door?

No, emergency services have to be blind.
All Legal US citizens have the necessary medical cards required for treatment! I know I have, & bet most likely you may have them as well!

Post by **spot** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:24 am

cars;1232788 wrote: All Legal US citizens have the necessary medical cards required for treatment! I know I have, & bet most likely you may have them as well!

Who issues these, cars? it seems redundant to try introducing backdoor National Identity Cards in the form of federal-standardised drivers' licences if these medical cards are already issued to every legal US citizen.

cars · Post by **cars** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:41 am

spot;1232860 wrote: Who issues these, cars? it seems redundant to try introducing backdoor National Identity Cards in the form of federal-standardised drivers' licences if these medical cards are already issued to every legal US citizen.
The insurance cards are applied for (not issued) by legal citizens, through the govt if retired, & or when employed, company group policies. They are not automatically issued to every citizen.

Post by **spot** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:37 am

cars;1232872 wrote: The insurance cards are applied for (not issued) by legal citizens, through the govt if retired, & or when employed, company group policies. They are not automatically issued to every citizen.

Can the 45 million currently uninsured adult legal US citizens also apply for them if they haven't the resources to pay for the insurance and don't qualify for medical aid? If they can then yes, "all legal US citizens have the necessary medical cards required for treatment" is a possibility.

You're still left with the problem of distinguishing legal from illegal residents in Emergency Rooms unless they're either carried at all times or stored on biometric national database for immediate proof of identity.

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:41 am

spot;1232910 wrote: Can the 45 million currently uninsured legal US citizens also apply for them if they haven't the resources to pay for the insurance and don't qualify for medical aid? If they can then yes, "all legal US citizens have the necessary medical cards required for treatment" is a possibility.

Lots of us question the number 45 million. And most other figures thrown at us by government. Look how they misjudged the "cash for clunkers" joke.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:41 am

You get a medical card from your insurance carrier, the illegals would not have one. That currently causes problems in treatment at ER's where you usually have to hsow something to receive treatment-unless you are completely knocked out and can't reach into your wallet for it.....:rolleyes:

When my husband became ill, they must have went in his wallet, found his name and insurance carrier, and admitted him. All without notifying me.....:rolleyes:

like his name was on their computer, they could have called me at home. But if he wasn't covered, I do not know what they would have done-maybe made him wait for treatment.

Post by **spot** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:47 am

hoppy;1232917 wrote: Lots of us question the number 45 million. And most other figures thrown at us by government. Look how they misjudged the "cash for clunkers" joke.

No problem hoppy - you tell me the figure you'd rather I use in future and I'll use that instead. It might be a friendly gesture on your part if you tell me where you got it from too.

Meanwhile my question remains - can these X number of currently uninsured adult legal US citizens also apply for them if they haven't the resources to pay for the insurance and don't qualify for medical aid?

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:55 am

spot;1232923 wrote: No problem hoppy - you tell me the figure you'd rather I use in future and I'll use that instead. It might be a friendly gesture on your part if you tell me where you got it from too.

Meanwhile my question remains - can these X number of currently uninsured adult legal US citizens also apply for them if they haven't the resources to pay for the insurance and don't qualify for medical aid?

Thank you spot. Your so gracious it makes me puke.

Post by **spot** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:04 am

hoppy;1232930 wrote: Thank you spot. Your so gracious it makes me puke.

You left out what figure you'd prefer I use in future. Shall we call it 20+ million currently uninsured adult legal US citizens who haven't the resources to pay for the insurance and don't qualify for medical aid? Is that low enough for you to agree it's accurate? I'm perfectly content to use that if it means we can finally discuss the issues, it's just as unsatisfactory a number as the US government's estimate of 45.

cigar898 · Post by **cigar898** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:15 am

spot;1232910 wrote: Can the 45 million currently uninsured adult legal US citizens also apply for them if they haven't the resources to pay for the insurance and don't qualify for medical aid? If they can then yes, "all legal US citizens have the necessary medical cards required for treatment" is a possibility.

You're still left with the problem of distinguishing legal from illegal residents in Emergency Rooms unless they're either carried at all times or stored on biometric national database for immediate proof of identity.

So now you're saying the uninsured are ignorant on how to fill out paperwork???

This will be a government bureaucracy from the start if it is passed. If the government is in charge of the nations healthcare, don't be foolish and think that some type of ID will be required.

Accountability - Emergency services must be blind? Right back at you.....since the uninsured right now are able to walk into an emergency room and get care because the ER is ALREADY REQUIRED to give treatment.....why then must the taxpayers be required to pay for $1 Trillion in taxes for health care reform?

And I'm sorry to those who don't live here in the US but our health care system is broke, I admit it.......however, if you don't live here and have to apy for this monstosity......your point will be considered but it won't matter much to me. Sorry.

cigar898 · Post by **cigar898** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:17 am

spot;1232923 wrote: No problem hoppy - you tell me the figure you'd rather I use in future and I'll use that instead. It might be a friendly gesture on your part if you tell me where you got it from too.

Meanwhile my question remains - can these X number of currently uninsured adult legal US citizens also apply for them if they haven't the resources to pay for the insurance and don't qualify for medical aid?

You just don't get the Health Care Reform Act do you........?

They will get health care.........they are now.......just walk in to any ER and they are already required by law to treat you........

Post by **spot** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:18 am

cigar898;1232943 wrote: So now you're saying the uninsured are ignorant on how to fill out paperwork???No, I'm asking whether they're allowed to apply for a medical card in such circumstances, in which case "all legal US citizens have the necessary medical cards required for treatment" is a possibility. It's a simple question to which I don't yet know the answer.

The proposed National ID Driving Licence will be available to non-drivers, it will just carry no permission to drive. I'm trying to find out whether the current medical card can be applied for when no treatment is available beyond ER provision.

Post by **spot** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:24 am

cigar898;1232946 wrote: You just don't get the Health Care Reform Act do you........?

They will get health care.........they are now.......just walk in to any ER and they are already required by law to treat you........

Yes, I know that bit about the current legal position that everyone, insured or not, is treated for acute life-threatening conditions if they present themselves on any ER doorstep. The Health Care Reform Act relates more to the treatment of chronic life-threatening conditions and other health problems. "They will get health care" is inaccurate insofar as health care and emergency room treatment aren't synonyms. Health care is far more extensive.

Kindle · Post by **Kindle** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:15 am

How do the Brit's handle the medical needs of non-citizens?

If I'm on vacation in England (without any insurance) and need emergency surgery, will I be properly cared for?

Post by **spot** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:25 am

Kindle;1232969 wrote: How do the Brit's handle the medical needs of non-citizens?

If I'm on vacation in England (without any insurance) and need emergency surgery, will I be properly cared for?

Invariably, though you may well be presented with a bill afterwards.

Kindle · Post by **Kindle** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:27 am

spot;1232970 wrote: Invariably, though you may well be presented with a bill afterwards.

Invariably???

What does this entail?

Post by **spot** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:38 am

Kindle;1232972 wrote: Invariably???

What does this entail?

If you're on vacation in England (without any insurance) and need emergency surgery, you will be properly cared for within the National Health System. I'm not sure what else I can add which would make the answer any more exact. You'd be admitted and treated, whether the condition were pre-existing or new. The key word is "emergency", it's unlikely you'd be treated for a chronic illness that could be dealt with on your return home.

Obviously the private medical sector would treat anyone for anything at all but they'd charge up front unlike the NHS. Whether the NHS would finally present a bill for acute emergency treatment if you're uninsured depends on the policy of the hospital management, some do and some don't.

cigar898 · Post by **cigar898** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:59 am

spot;1232975 wrote: If you're on vacation in England (without any insurance) and need emergency surgery, you will be properly cared for within the National Health System. I'm not sure what else I can add which would make the answer any more exact. You'd be admitted and treated, whether the condition were pre-existing or new. The key word is "emergency", it's unlikely you'd be treated for a chronic illness that could be dealt with on your return home.

Obviously the private medical sector would treat anyone for anything at all but they'd charge up front unlike the NHS. Whether the NHS would finally present a bill for acute emergency treatment if you're uninsured depends on the policy of the hospital management, some do and some don't.

If the uninsured in the US go to an ER, they will receive a bill but won't be required to pay it........it's just used for medical billing and tracking by the hospital for expenditures........

cigar898 · Post by **cigar898** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:02 am

The 1018 page H.R. 3200 Health Reform Bill

The following list focuses on threats to our liberty found in this bill.

You can verify every threat listed below by going here to download a pdf file of the bill.

http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/ ... 071409.pdf

All Threat List

1) Pg 22 mandates that the Government will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure. So every employer in the United States will be subjected to a health insurance audit just as all taxpayers are subject to audit. Of course, we will have to pay for an entire new bureaucracy to do this–the Internal Health Revenue Service?

2) Pg 30, Sec 123 states that there will be a government committee that decides what treatments you are allowed and what your overall benefits are.

3) Pg 29, lines 4-16 basically mandates the rationing of health care as is being done in Canada.

4) Pg 42 recognizes the power of the Health Choices Commissioner to determine your health benefits. You will have no choice.

5) PG 50, section 152 states that free, taxpayer-paid health care will be given to the 30 million non-citizens in the USA, even illegal aliens.

6) Pg 58 states that government will have possession of all your health care records & history including finances and you will have to have a National ID Healthcard.

7) Pg 59, lines 21-24 gives direct access to your banks accounts to compel you to pay any out-of-pocket or premium costs electronically without your previous consent.

8 ) PG 65, sec 164 provides for a political payoff from the Democrats and Obama: a special subsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions or community groups like ACORN.

9) Pg 72, lines 8-14 creates a Health Care Exchange to bring private health insurance plans under government control. This part of the bill reveals Obama’s lies about being able to keep your plan if you like it. Any health insurance plan which does not completely rework itself to conform to these regulations will be dropped from the exchange and those insured will have to pick one of the plans in the exchange. This is why the Congressional Budget Office determined that over 20 million will lose the coverage they are now enjoying if Obamacare is implemented.

10) PG 85, line 7 provides specifics for benefit levels for all health plans, giving government the right to ration everyone’s health care.

11) PG 91, lines 4-7 mandates that doctor’s offices, clinics and hospitals provide language-appropriate services, basically ordering them to hire translators at the expense of the American taxpayer.

12) Pg 95, lines 8-18 allows the government to hire non-profit community groups like ACORN and Americorps to sign up people for the government health plan.

13) PG 85, line 7 provides for specifics on benefit levels for Medicare recipients, basically rationing the care of every senior citizen I the United States.

14) PG 102, lines 12-18 mandates that all Medicaid eligible will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid based upon income and insurance status. No choice.

15) Pg 124, lines 24-25 states that no private company or individual can have the right to sue the federal government for medical price fixing, basically eliminating your right to seek redress in the courts regarding your medical care.

16) Pg 127, lines 1-16 dictates doctors’ payment and therefore income which will reduce what doctors earn and lead to greater shortages of doctors and more rationing of care.

17) Pg 145, line 15-17 any employer not currently insuring their employees must enroll employees into public plan option, with no choice of private insurance allowed.

18) Pg 126, lines 22-25 mandates that employers must pay for health insurance even for part-time workers and their families, which will certainly lead to massive layoffs.

19) Pg 149, lines 16-24 all employers with an annual payroll bigger than $400k who does not pay to enroll employees in public insurance option will pay an 8% tax on all payroll.

20) Pg 150, lines 9-13 mandates that employers with an annual payroll between $251K & $400K who does not pay to enroll employees in public insurance option will pay a 2-6% tax on all payroll.

21) Pg 167, lines 18-23 any individual who is self-employed and does not have health insurance will be taxed 2.5% of income and forced to accept public health insurance. So paying for health care out of pocket will be banned from the face of the earth.

22) Pg 170, lines 1-3 exempts non-resident aliens from the individual health care taxes, so Americans citizens will pay for these aliens, legal and illegal alike.

23) Pg 195 officers & employees of the new Health Care Administration will have access to all Americans personal financial records and accounts.

24) PG 203, line 14-15 actually says that “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax.” Yes, it says that.

25) Pg 239, line 14-24 mandates that available physician services will be reduced for Medicaid recipients. Many poor people including many seniors will be affected.

26) Pg 241, line 6-8 mandates that all doctors receive the same pay, regardless of specialty. This will vastly reduce the number of specialists available in the United States, a common problem where medicine is socialized like Canada.

27) PG 253, line 10-18 allows the federal government to set the value of doctor’s time, professional judgment.

28) PG 265, Sec 1131 mandates and controls the productivity of all health care providers including surgeons!

29) PG 268, Sec 1141 regulates the rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs.

30) PG 272, Sec. 1145 regulates the operation of certain types of cancer hospitals, again rationing the care of cancer patients.

31) Page 280, Sec 1151 allows the government to penalize hospitals for what is deemed to be preventable readmissions. So instead of being sued for malpractice, the government will be the punitive body when mistakes are made.

32) Pg 298, lines 9-11 mandates that if a doctor treats a patient during initial admission and that result in a re-admission, the doctor will be subject to federal penalties. Gee, do you think that’s going to drive up the cost of malpractice?

33) Pg 317, lines 13-20 will create prohibitions on ownership and investment in the health service industry for doctors.

34) Pg 317-318, lines 21-25, and 1-3 will prohibit the expansion of all hospitals.

35) pg 321, lines 2-13 allows hospitals apply for an exception to the expansion rule but they must seek community input first!

36) Pg335, lines 16-25, Pg 336-339 mandates the establishment of outcome based health care and insidious idea that actually limits the treatment choices made by patients with their doctors, based upon the patient’s health and condition. This will result in the oldest, weakest and sickest patients being denied treatments simply because the statistics for success in their demographic category are poor! This is a form of health care rationing that will save money at the expense of seniors to help buy insurance for the uninsured, most of whom are young and healthy!

37) Pg 341, lines 3-9 allows the government to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans and HMO forcing people into the government run public plan.

38) Pg 354, Sec 1177 will arbitrarily restrict the enrollment of special needs children and adults.

39) Pg 379, Sec 1191 mandates the creation of even more bureaucracy in the Telehealth Advisory Committee.

40) PG 425, lines 4-12 mandates “Advance Care Planning Consultation,” another insidious vehicle to save money by encouraging seniors who are in poor health to be more accepting of death rather than fighting to stay alive and healthy and with their loved ones.

41) Pg 425, lines 17-19 mandates that all senior patients will be consulted regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney.

42) PG 425, lines 22-25, 426 lines 1-3 provides an approved list of end of life resources, to help guide seniors about the process of dying!

43) PG 427, line 15 mandates program for orders on the end of life, actually giving the government a say in how your life ends!

44) Pg 429, lines 1-9 dictates the frequency with which an Advance Care Planning Consultant will have to meet with patients as their health deteriorates.

45) PG 429, lines 10-12 give an Advance Care Planning Consultant the power to order end of life plans for a patient.

46) Pg 429, lines 13-25 will only allow certain doctors, not necessarily your own physician, to write an end of life order.

47) PG 430, lines 11-15 allows the government to decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life.

48) Pg 469 mandates “Community Based Home Medical Services” through non profits like ACORN. Happy yet that we elected a community organizer to the White House?

49) PG 489, Sec 1308 force taxpayers to pay for Marriage & Family therapy under the public insurance plan.

50) Pg 494-498 allows government to define mental illnesses and what services will be allowed to treat, again rationing this care.

Threats Broken Down by Category :

For those concerned with the damage this plan will do to business:

Pg 22 mandates that the Government will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure. So every employer in the United States will be subjected to a health insurance audit just as all taxpayers are subject to audit. Of course, we will have to pay for an entire new bureaucracy to do this–the Internal Health Revenue Service?

Pg 42 recognizes the power of the Health Choices Commissioner to determine your health benefits. You will have no choice.

PG 50, section 152 states that free, taxpayer-paid health care will be given to the 30 million non-citizens in the USA, even illegal aliens.

Pg 30, Sec 123 states that there will be a government committee that decides what treatments you are allowed and what your overall benefits are.

Pg 29, lines 4-16 basically mandates the rationing of health care as is being done in Canada.

Pg 42 recognizes the power of the Health Choices Commissioner to determine your health benefits. You will have no choice.

Pg 58 states that government will have possession of all your health care records & history including finances and you will have to have a National ID Healthcard.

Pg 59, lines 21-24 gives direct access to your banks accounts to compel you to pay any out-of-pocket or premium costs electronically without your previous consent.

Pg 72, lines 8-14 creates a Health Care Exchange to bring private health insurance plans under government control. This part of the bill reveals Obama’s lies about being able to keep your plan if you like it. Any health insurance plan which does not completely rework itself to conform to these regulations will be dropped from the exchange and those insured will have to pick one of the plans in the exchange. This is why the Congressional Budget Office determined that over 20 million will lose the coverage they are now enjoying if Obamacare is implemented.

Pg 145, line 15-17 any employer not currently insuring their employees must enroll employees into public plan option, with no choice of private insurance allowed.

Pg 126, lines 22-25 mandates that employers must pay for health insurance even for part-time workers and their families, which will certainly lead to massive layoffs.

Pg 149, lines 16-24 all employers with an annual payroll bigger than $400k who does not pay to enroll employees in public insurance option will pay an 8% tax on all payroll.

Pg 167, lines 18-23 any individual who is self-employed and does not have health insurance will be taxed 2.5% of income and forced to accept public health insurance. So paying for health care out of pocket will be banned from the face of the earth.

For those concerned with the inherent unfairness in this plan

PG 65, sec 164 provides for a political payoff from the Democrats and Obama; a special subsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions community groups like ACORN.

PG 102, lines 12-18 mandates that all Medicaid eligible will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid based upon income and insurance status. No choice.

Pg 124, lines 24-25 states that no private company or individual can have the right to sue the federal government for medical price fixing, basically eliminating your right to seek redress in the courts regarding your medical care.

Pg 469 mandates “Community Based Home Medical Services” through non profits like ACORN. Happy yet that we elected a community organizer to the White House?

For those afraid of healthcare rationing:

PG 85, line 7 provides specifics for benefit levels for all health plans, giving government the right to ration everyone’s healthcare.

Pg 239, line 14-24 mandates that available physician services will be reduced for Medicaid recipients. Many poor people including many seniors will be affected.

PG 272, Sec. 1145 regulates the operation of certain types of cancer hospitals, again rationing the care of cancer patients.

For those concerned with the costs of this plan:

PG 91, lines 4-7 mandates that doctor’s offices, clinics and hospitals provide language-appropriate services, basically ordering them to hire translators at the expense of the American taxpayer.

Pg 95, lines 8-18 allows the government to hire non-profit community groups like ACORN and Americorps to sign up people for the government health plan.

Pg 170, lines 1-3 exempts non-resident aliens from the individual health care taxes, so Americans citizens will pay for these aliens, legal and illegal alike.

PG 489, Sec 1308 force taxpayers to pay for Marriage & Family therapy under the public insurance plan.

For those concerned with the damage this plan will do to the medical profession:

Pg 127, lines 1-16 dictates doctors’ payment and therefore income which will reduce what doctors earn and lead to greater shortages of doctors and more rationing of care.

Pg 150, lines 9-13 mandates that employers with an annual payroll between $251K & $400K who does not pay to enroll employees in public insurance option will pay a 2-6% tax on all payroll.

Pg 241, line 6-8 mandates that all doctors receive the same pay, regardless of specialty. This will vastly reduce the number of specialists available in the United States, a common problem where medicine is socialized like Canada.

PG 253, line 10-18 allows the federal government to set the value of doctor’s time, professional judgment.

PG 265, Sec 1131 mandates and controls the productivity of all health care providers including surgeons!

Page 280, Sec 1151 allows the government to penalize hospitals for what is deemed to be preventable readmissions. So instead of being sued for malpractice, the government will be the punitive body when mistakes are made.

Pg 298, lines 9-11 mandates that if a doctor treats a patient during initial admission and that result in a re-admission, the doctor will be subject to federal penalties. Gee do you think that’s going to drive up the cost of malpractice?

Pg 317, lines 13-20 will create prohibitions on ownership and investment in the health service industry for doctors.

Pg 317-318, lines 21-25, and 1-3 will prohibit the expansion of all hospitals.

pg 321, lines 2-13 allows hospitals apply for an exception to the expansion rule but they must seek community input first!

Pg335, lines 16-25, Pg 336-339 mandates the establishment of outcome based health care and insidious idea that actually limits the treatment choices made by patients with their doctors, based upon the patient’s health and condition. This will result in the oldest, weakest and sickest patients being denied treatments simply because the statistics for success in their demographic category are poor! This is a form of health care rationing that will save money at the expense of seniors to help buy insurance for the uninsured, most of whom are young and healthy!

Pg 341, lines 3-9 allows the government to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans and HMO forcing people into the government run public plan.

For those concerned with violations of individual rights in this plan:

Pg 195 officers & employees of the new Health Care Administration will have access to all Americans personal financial records and accounts.

PG 203, line 14-15 actually says that “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax.” Yes, it says that.

PG 268, Sec 1141 regulates the rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs.

Pg 379, Sec 1191 mandates the creation of even more bureaucracy in the Telehealth Advisory Committee.

PG 425, lines 4-12 mandates “Advance Care Planning Consultation,” another insidious vehicle to save money by encouraging seniors who are in poor health to be more accepting of death rather than fighting to stay alive and healthy and with their loved ones.

Pg 425, lines 17-19 mandates that all senior patients will be consulted regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney.

PG 425, lines 22-25, 426 lines 1-3 provides an approved list of end of life resources, to help guide seniors about the process of dying!

PG 427, lines 15 mandates program for orders on the end of life, actually giving the government a say in how your life ends!

Pg 429, lines 1-9 dictates the frequency with which an Advance Care Planning Consultant will have to meet with patients as their health deteriorates.

PG 429, lines 10-12 give an Advance Care Planning Consultant the power to order end of life plans for a patient.

Pg 354, Sec 1177 will arbitrarily restrict the enrollment of special needs children and adults.

Pg 429, lines 13-25 will only allow certain doctors, not necessarily your own physician, to write an end of life order.

PG 430, lines 11-15 allows the government to decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life.

Pg 494-498 allows government to define mental illnesses and what services will be allowed to treat, again rationing this care.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Post by **spot** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:52 pm

cigar898;1232980 wrote: If the uninsured in the US go to an ER, they will receive a bill but won't be required to pay it........it's just used for medical billing and tracking by the hospital for expenditures........
If the hospital thinks the person treated has the resources to pay the bill if they're chased? Allow me to express my doubt that you're right. They may well not try to chase the indigent but I'm quite sure they'd go after people capable of liquidating assets to cover the cost. You're telling me that if I were holidaying in the US with no travel insurance and presented to ER after a traffic accident I'd not subsequently have to pay the bill? You can't be serious.

cigar898 · Post by **cigar898** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:02 pm

spot;1233123 wrote: If the hospital thinks the person treated has the resources to pay the bill if they're chased? Allow me to express my doubt that you're right. They may well not try to chase the indigent but I'm quite sure they'd go after people capable of liquidating assets to cover the cost. You're telling me that if I were holidaying in the US with no travel insurance and presented to ER after a traffic accident I'd not subsequently have to pay the bill? You can't be serious.

Yes, I am serious. The hospital would try their best to collect but if you were unable to pay......oh well. Two EMTs live nest door to me and we talk about this all the time. They told me of a person who was diabetic and on welfare. Whenever he needed to go to the hospital for his diabetic treament that he couldn't pay for but yet received, he would call for an ambulance because he couldn't afford to pay for the taxi. An average ambulance dispatch costs (median) $500.00 per trip....and that's just to the hospital.

Now when I say they will try to collect, if you have shown the capability to pay (you're on vacation thus can afford it), they will track you as much as they can

and bill you. Keep in mind I'm talking about the uninsured in the US......a traveler on vacation from another country for the most part is different.

Why do you think so many illegal pregnant Mexicans try to make it to the US? So they can give birth in the US in an ER so their child is a US citizen.

Post by **spot** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:09 pm

cigar898;1233128 wrote: Yes, I am serious. The hospital would try their best to collect but if you were unable to pay......oh well.
Which is exactly what I just wrote, as opposed to "If the uninsured in the US go to an ER, they will receive a bill but won't be required to pay it........it's just used for medical billing and tracking by the hospital for expenditures". You write X, I say no it's Y and you come back "yes, Y, like I said"? Come on, be reasonable. Read the three posts again. "If the uninsured in the US go to an ER, they will receive a bill but won't be required to pay it........it's just used for medical billing and tracking by the hospital for expenditures" is a complete denial of where you just ended up.

cigar898 · Post by **cigar898** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:16 pm

spot;1233132 wrote: Which is exactly what I just wrote, as opposed to "If the uninsured in the US go to an ER, they will receive a bill but won't be required to pay it........it's just used for medical billing and tracking by the hospital for expenditures". You write X, I say no it's Y and you come back "yes, Y, like I said"? Come on, be reasonable. Read the three posts again. "If the uninsured in the US go to an ER, they will receive a bill but won't be required to pay it........it's just used for medical billing and tracking by the hospital for expenditures" is a complete denial of where you just ended up.

Where am I screwing up X and Y? I stated that the uninsured are billed but are not forced to pay. I also stated that if you're in an accident and sent to the ER and for some reason (you stated you're on vacation which indicates that you have an income right?) can't pay right then and there, the hospital will do it's best to collect but they won't send the Collection Agency to your home wherever you're from to kick down the door to collect......the only ones who pay are US citizens where the hospital is able to obtain an address from either your drivers license or ID card and are able to send a bill. When the bill get delinquent (sp?),

the Collection Agency comes calling......will NHS (right?) come after me here in the US if I fail to pay for treatment while in the UK?

Post by **spot** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:41 pm

cigar898;1233134 wrote: Where am I screwing up X and Y? I stated that the uninsured are billed but are not forced to pay. [...] the only ones who pay are US citizens where the hospital is able to obtain an address from either your drivers license or ID card and are able to send a bill. When the bill get delinquent (sp?), the Collection Agency comes callingI'm quite content to leave this minor exchange standing in the thread for the record. What you actually wrote was "If the uninsured in the US go to an ER, they will receive a bill but won't be required to pay it........it's just used for medical billing and tracking by the hospital for expenditures". What you say in the quote box above is a complete reversal of that. Repetitively exchanging posts of yes I did no you didn't isn't going to clear the air, all we need do is leave the posts as they stand.

If you want to read the reality of the cost of treatment for the uninsured in the US you might like to read these posts - "they will receive a bill but won't be required to pay it" is an insulting travesty.

Health care

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/gener ... post662400

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/gener ... post695527

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/healt ... post715709

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/gener ... ost1127528

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:54 pm

Give me a break.

Illegals have always been treated in ER's everywhere.

This isnt O's brainchild.

Talk about bending the truth.,

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:34 pm

Nomad;1233185 wrote: Give me a break.

Illegals have always been treated in ER's everywhere.

This isnt O's brainchild.

Talk about bending the truth.,
Who said it was? :-2

Oh. I think the anger is in that it will continue even after the overhaul. That must be the mixup.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:09 am

Obama: "Basic Standard Of Decency" Allows Illegals To Be Treated

Its implied.

If someone didnt know theyre already being treated the above sounds as if its a new initiative therefore its deceptive.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:35 am

Nomad;1233262 wrote: Obama: "Basic Standard Of Decency" Allows Illegals To Be Treated

Its implied.

If someone didnt know theyre already being treated the above sounds as if its a new initiative therefore its deceptive.
That's true, but I doubt there's many left that fits that category.

ZAP · Post by **ZAP** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:05 pm

I have a question about Line 7-Out of Pocket expenses. What would that entail? And the government will have access to our bank accounts to electronically deduct these expenses?!?! What else might they decide to deduct for?

A comment about Lines 40-47, ABSOLUTELY APPALLING!! Does that mean that my mother, who died at 90 and was sharp as a tack and in basically good health until the last week of her life, when she had a minor heart attack and developed pneumonia, would have been analyzed by a panel of nit-wits and found to be not worthy of further life, because of demographics, when she was 75 or 80?

A comment on health care for non resident aliens. I live in a community very close to the Mexican border where most of the patients in the doctor's offices I go to are Mexican-some legal residents, some not. My daughter works in a private dialysis clinic where the patients are: some US citizens, some not. When I went to a local hospital for a stress test last year, there were a lot of non-English speaking patients receiving the same tests. When I finished, the nurse gave me a letter. She said that I might set off the sensors if I was going to cross the border back into Mexico, because I was radioactive and that I should give the letter to the border-crossing guard. I told her I didn't go into Mexico and she said "So many of our patients do and that's just so you won't have a problem crossing." I'm pretty sure none of those patients pay Insurance premiums or taxes. But this isn't a new thing. Thirty years ago our hospitals and public health services were treating citizens of Mexicali for, among other things, some of the first reported cases of AIDS.

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:27 pm

I can see that the OP and thread title deal with the coming together of two issues. The American health system present and proposed is the first. The second is in two parts - a) the number of illegal aliens currently residing in the United States, and b) the number of Mexicans crossing the border just for health treatment.

I make no comment on the first.

The second though puzzles me very much. How can so very many illegals be making a living in America unless ordinary Americans are employing them presumably illegally, aiding and abetting them not to pay taxes etc???? If this vast apparently dirt-cheap workforce is being exploited by Americans within America, it seems harsh and even hypocritical to deny the poor bastards some basic care if they fall ill in the course of earning a crust.

I can't seen any reason why visitors who legally cross the border in search of free medical treatment should not be sent back immediately. If they are bleeding copiously at the time of the border crossing, surely the border guards would have something to say???

ZAP · Post by **ZAP** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:21 pm

Pam, I checked with my daughter who is a dialysis nurse, to make sure that she knows for a fact that they treat illegal aliens in their clinic. She said she knows of 1 patient, possibly 2, that are currently getting treatment, who are citizens of Mexico. Apparently they can dummy up their addresses and use a friend's or relative's to get MediCal. The one has never worked nor lived here. Just as there are numbers of Mexican citizens who have phony addresses and post office boxes and collect Social Security checks, without ever having lived or worked here in the US. I don't know how they do it but I do know that they do! My daughter said that one of the other patients turned some of the offenders in. She's wondering what will happen to the woman if she's denied treatment, because she will die. My daughter said that they do have the option of paying for their treatment.

Edited to change the 'Medical' to 'Medicare'

Post by **spot** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:34 pm

Zapata;1233410 wrote: A comment about Lines 40-47, ABSOLUTELY APPALLING!! Does that mean that my mother, who died at 90 and was sharp as a tack and in basically good health until the last week of her life, when she had a minor heart attack and developed pneumonia, would have been analyzed by a panel of nit-wits and found to be not worthy of further life, because of demographics, when she was 75 or 80?Something which has puzzled me from start to end of this thread is the inaccurate assumption that the new provisions will take the place of existing private medical insurance cover. A person covered by private medical insurance would still be covered by it once the new system is in place under just the same terms as in the past. Just as in the UK any US citizen would have the option of buying their own medical insurance or of treatment under the national medical insurance scheme.

The new provisions are for those with no private medical plan. Presumably the current medicare/medicaid already has "panels of nit-wits" deciding the level of care available under the state provision for otherwise uninsured children and pensioners, I don't see how it could be operating without them. In the UK such decisions are left at a patient level to clinicians with budgets consulting the patient's family, the "panels of nit-wits" as you call them are more involved in preselecting cost-effective medication at a national level and deciding which procedures to include or exclude among those offered within the system (such as excluding cosmetic procedures with no health benefit, for example).

Kindle · Post by **Kindle** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:43 pm

spot;1233423 wrote: Something which has puzzled me from start to end of this thread is the inaccurate assumption that the new provisions will take the place of existing private medical insurance cover. A person covered by private medical insurance would still be covered by it once the new system is in place under just the same terms as in the past. Just as in the UK any US citizen would have the option of buying their own medical insurance or of treatment under the national medical insurance scheme.

The new provisions are for those with no private medical plan. Presumably the current medicare/medicaid already has "panels of nit-wits" deciding the level of care available under the state provision for otherwise uninsured children and pensioners, I don't see how it could be operating without them. In the UK such decisions are left at a patient level to clinicians with budgets consulting the patient's family, the "panels of nit-wits" as you call them are more involved in preselecting cost-effective medication at a national level and deciding which procedures to include or exclude among those offered within the system (such as excluding cosmetic procedures with no health benefit, for example).

scheme being the operative word here... scheme meaning an underhanded plot

Post by **spot** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:52 pm

Kindle;1233425 wrote: scheme being the operative word here... scheme meaning an underhanded plot

Collectively you get what you're prepared to vote for Kindle. I have no personal interest whatever in whether the health of the American population improves or plummets, it's an internal matter. I don't care whether you're overrun with illegal immigrants or decide to have none at all. I don't care whether your economy collapses or whether you all manage pull it round. What bothers me is that your government, regardless of its political affiliation, continually deploys your armed forces beyond your borders. Until that's remedied all the rest is just so much hot air. It's catastrophic that the Democrats won last year, you deserved a Republican third term to dig the pit deeper.

Kindle · Post by **Kindle** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:48 pm

spot;1233427 wrote: Collectively you get what you're prepared to vote for Kindle. I have no personal interest whatever in whether the health of the American population improves or plummets, it's an internal matter. I don't care whether you're overrun with illegal immigrants or decide to have none at all. I don't care whether your economy collapses or whether you all manage pull it round. What bothers me is that your government, regardless of its political affiliation, continually deploys your armed forces beyond your borders. Until that's remedied all the rest is just so much hot air. It's catastrophic that the Democrats won last year, you deserved a Republican third term to dig the pit deeper.

I love you too.

ZAP · Post by **ZAP** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:08 am

spot;1233423 wrote: Something which has puzzled me from start to end of this thread is the inaccurate assumption that the new provisions will take the place of existing private medical insurance cover. A person covered by private medical insurance would still be covered by it once the new system is in place under just the same terms as in the past. Just as in the UK any US citizen would have the option of buying their own medical insurance or of treatment under the national medical insurance scheme.

The new provisions are for those with no private medical plan. Presumably the current medicare/medicaid already has "panels of nit-wits" deciding the level of care available under the state provision for otherwise uninsured children and pensioners, I don't see how it could be operating without them. In the UK such decisions are left at a patient level to clinicians with budgets consulting the patient's family, the "panels of nit-wits" as you call them are more involved in preselecting cost-effective medication at a national level and deciding which procedures to include or exclude among those offered within the system (such as excluding cosmetic procedures with no health benefit, for example).

Am I not reading this right or is it contradictory?

Pg 72, lines 8-14 creates a Health Care Exchange to bring private health insurance plans under government control. This part of the bill reveals Obama’s lies about being able to keep your plan if you like it. Any health insurance plan which does not completely rework itself to conform to these regulations will be dropped from the exchange and those insured will have to pick one of the plans in the exchange. This is why the Congressional Budget Office determined that over 20 million will lose the coverage they are now enjoying if Obamacare is implemented.

Post by **spot** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:39 am

Zapata;1233807 wrote: Am I not reading this right or is it contradictory?

Pg 72, lines 8-14 creates a Health Care Exchange to bring private health insurance plans under government control. This part of the bill reveals Obama’s lies about being able to keep your plan if you like it. Any health insurance plan which does not completely rework itself to conform to these regulations will be dropped from the exchange and those insured will have to pick one of the plans in the exchange. This is why the Congressional Budget Office determined that over 20 million will lose the coverage they are now enjoying if Obamacare is implemented.

So it's an accurate statement for the other hundred million policies but the 20 million deemed inadequate will be absorbed? It's just bringing around 15%-20% of private health insurance plans under government control, all the others already conforming? I think your wording's deliberately over the top, you nowhere carry any "some" and your "any" applies only to a small minority.

Would it not be more interesting to discuss the core reality rather than blacken the target?