What do the Scots want from independence?

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:41 pm

I think we are looking at some form of independent Scotland in the next 10 or 20 years.

What form do the Scots want that independence to take? How do you see your relationship with your southern neighbour in 20 years time?

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:19 pm

Hi Clod

No offence but the whole point of independance is to get as far away from the southern neighbour as possible.

Definition of independance - The state or quality of being independent; freedom from dependence; exemption from reliance on, or control by, others; self-subsistence or maintenance; direction of one's own affairs without interference.

Chookie · Post by **Chookie** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:24 pm

Hopefully a republic with a consience and no armed forces interfering in the affairs of other nations.

England may, by that time have developed a concept of Englishness which embraces all of the inhabitants of that land. Mind you, it may be a bit smaller as the Northen English seem to have more in common with the Scots than they do with Londoners.....

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:25 pm

No offence but the whole point of independance is to get as far away from the southern neighbour as possible.

That's what worries me. You can't get away from us, or we from you. We're attached. If you want independence for negative reasons what are you going to be? It's the "no friends south of the border" lot that worry me. You've got lots of friends south of the border, and if Scottish independence is about being anti-English rather than pro-Scottish, you're doomed to being a failed state in my opinion. I don't think you can build well on a negative. If you see what I mean.

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:30 pm

Chookie;1233942 wrote: no armed forces interfering in the affairs of other nations.

Absolutely.

Chookie · Post by **Chookie** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:33 pm

Clodhopper;1233944 wrote: ....if Scottish independence is about being anti-English rather than pro-Scottish, you're doomed to being a failed state in my opinion. I don't think you can build well on a negative. If you see what I mean.

I don't believe that SNP type nationalism (which is far different than that bullshit which drives the BNP) is anti-English. Oh sure, historically we haven't been very nice to each other, but history is history. I agree with you about building on a negative.

However, we'll see.......

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:34 pm

Clodhopper;1233944 wrote: You can't get away from us,

I think you'll find we can.

Its not about being anti English. Once independance is here you will just be another place like France or Spain. We will not be connected.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:46 pm

Hopefully a republic with a consience and no armed forces interfering in the affairs of other nations.

England may, by that time have developed a concept of Englishness which embraces all of the inhabitants of that land. Mind you, it may be a bit smaller as the Northen English seem to have more in common with the Scots than they do with Londoners.....

No offence but the whole point of independance is to get as far away from the southern neighbour as possible.

Definition of independance - The state or quality of being independent; freedom from dependence; exemption from reliance on, or control by, others; self-subsistence or maintenance; direction of one's own affairs without interference.

You are talking in terms of England. Both of you. Is that really all you want from independence? Not to be associated with England in any way?

Forget it. You ARE associated with England, and England with you. We are physically attached. If you achieve full independence in every way and join the EU you will STILL be allied and associated with England. Much of your trade and transport is involved with England. If your sole reason for wanting independence is to disassociate with England you will simply fail. Whatever you do, you will have to deal with us, and us with you.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:57 pm

England may, by that time have developed a concept of Englishness which embraces all of the inhabitants of that land. Mind you, it may be a bit smaller as the Northen English seem to have more in common with the Scots than they do with Londoners.....

England consists of the Kingdoms of Wessex, Mercia, Northumberland and various Anglian and Saxon kingdoms. We are not and never have been homogenous. Any more than the Pictish, Celtic, Viking and Norman Scots. Why is Scottish Celtic NOT the official language? Because most Scots never spoke it....

As far as I can see the only thing that pulls Scots together is Anti-Englishness. You need more. Tell me what it is.

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:59 pm

Clodhopper;1233959 wrote: You are talking in terms of England. Both of you. Is that really all you want from independence? Not to be associated with England in any way?

Of course not. :rolleyes: (but it is important) :sneaky:

Forget it. You ARE associated with England, and England with you. We are physically attached. If you achieve full independence in every way and join the EU you will STILL be allied and associated with England. Much of your trade and transport is involved with England. If your sole reason for wanting independence is to disassociate with England you will simply fail. Whatever you do, you will have to deal with us, and us with you.

Where did anyone say it was the sole reason? Do you honestly expect a full list of everything that is expected in an independant Scotland in the matter of half an hour from 2 people?

If you had said there was some urgency i may have viewed the thread from another angle.

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:02 pm

Clodhopper;1233970 wrote: England consists of the Kingdoms of Wessex, Mercia, Northumberland and various Anglian and Saxon kingdoms. We are not and never have been homogenous. Any more than the Pictish, Celtic, Viking and Norman Scots. Why is Scottish Celtic NOT the official language? Because most Scots never spoke it....

As far as I can see the only thing that pulls Scots together is Anti-Englishness. You need more. Tell me what it is.

Clod you seem to be getting a bit upset, go get a coffee or glass of wine. Its just a thread, see you in a bit. I'm off to get some wine myself and see what rubbish my husband is watching on t.v

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:12 pm

Beer. Aaaaaah!

I'm upset in the sense that I'm worried. Scotland and England historically did nowt but shyte on eachother. If that's what the Scots want from independence - yes! I don't want to see that again!

I spent 4 years in a wonderful Scottish university. Some of the best times of my life.

But the sheer, naked, publically applauded bigotry...

...if independence will reduce that, I'm all in favour of it. Go Scotland! Wonderful place!

But while xenophobia rules the roost you are pathetic at best.

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:33 pm

buttercup;1233954 wrote:

Its not about being anti English. Once independance is here you will just be another place like France or Spain.

How do you read bigotry into that? All it means is you will be classed as they are.

You use the word 'pathetic' like some kind of ammunition that i'm supposed to bite at :sneaky: Nice try.

I will very much enjoy interacting in this thread with you if you can drop those type of words.

p.s - my husband is watching poker so looks like i maybe online longer than i thought.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:46 pm

Its not about being anti English. Once independance is here you will just be another place like France or Spain.

How do you read bigotry into that? All it means is you will be classed as they are.

I don't read bigotry into that. I read bigotry into watching Scottish pubs when an England game is on. I read bigotry into female English students at Aberdeen being glassed for being English by Scottish men within the last year. I read bigotry into retired English folk in Scotland taking whole villages to court for racial discrimination (rather longer ago).

If independence will stop the hatred, I'm in favour. I worry about the SNP because they are a nationalist (and in this case it LOOKS like racist) party. Even Macgaskets case for the release of whosit was couched in "Scotland is superior to everyone" terms.

Nasssssssty.

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:54 pm

Oh dear

You really don't want me to provide details of discrimination of the English against the Scots do you? Is that where you want this thread to go? I had hoped for better.

I will just have to convince my husband that i am far more interesting than poker now :sneaky:

Goodnight Clod, perhaps tomorrow being the dawn of a new day may bring some new light to what i feel could still be a good thread :-6

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:07 pm

We can go on about history as long as you want. I don't really see what good it will do. Do you know what the Scots did in their various invasions of England? History isn't one way, and I'm talking current affairs and the future.

Ever seen a Scottish pub during an England game? Of course you have. Think that's fine? Ever heard what a lot of Scots say ("say", not "said") about the English - as though we were a single person with one opinion through all history? Tell me the details of the racist muggings of Scots in England recently - if they happened I'm not currently aware of them and want to know, but I DO know as an English student in Scotland I had to fight because I am English.

I know the history. What I DON'T want is to repeat it.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:28 am

Clodhopper;1233915 wrote: I think we are looking at some form of independent Scotland in the next 10 or 20 years.

What form do the Scots want that independence to take? How do you see your relationship with your southern neighbour in 20 years time?

It's a complex issue. You're right there is lot of ignorant anti-english sentiment curiously hyped up by the murdoch newspapers who are also anti-independence. A lot of scots don't know their own history which is a depressing saga of being let down by our own leaders who generally wanted to bugger off down south to make their fortunes. It wasn't english troops and just english landowners that were forcing highlander off the land, nor was it scotland against england at culloden, but many think it was.

On the other hand we have a very distinct culture, religion and legal and education system which in many ways is superior to the english one (OK I'm biased). Generally speaking we are more egalitarian and left wing then our english counterparts and also more widely educated. (Our education has system has tended to concentrate on breadth of subjects rather than narrow specialisms) The egalitarian bit has it's downside as it often manifests itself as a desire to pull down those who want to do better and get away from your background or who have done netter.

Quick example when I was working in london a manager on the same level as me discovered i was on a higher salary. his response was to congratulate me on getting more out the bastards and I saw him the next day with the area manager demanding a pay rise-which he got. When I moved back up a similar situation arose but the response was more that's not fair you shouldn't have that and they were bitter about it. That's the down side-the upside is we see ourselves s good as the next man(person) no matter who they are.

Robert Burns Country: A Man's A Man For A' That:

The sentiments behind the words echo with a lot of people around the world, however a lot just cannot understand it-clearly not all man are created equal some are more intelligent etc etc. Most scots get it on a visceral level as do most of those with celt/viking/british/saxon heritage. Don't ask me why but there seems to be something different with the anglo- norman portion of our country.

Over the last few year that distinct sense of culture and identity is clashing with that down south. The greed of the thatcher years doesn't go down well. We got stuck with the poll tax which most people saw as grossly unfair-Maggie destroyed the labour tory party in scotland. A lot of the economic decisions are made because they are good for the south east and regardless of the effect on the rest of the country-eddie george famously said a rise unemployment in the north ws a price worth paying to keep inflation down. If you happen to be in the north-of england as well as scotland-that attitude irks. We also have things imposed on us to deal with a peculiarly english problem-the home information pack being the latest stupidity-we don't have housbuying chain that break down if you make n offer for house and it's accepted you can't just change your mind, gazumping is almost unknown.

Most of the development and improvement in Scotland over the lasts few years has come from membership of the EU and the regional development fund. We know left to Westminster none of that would have happened. What swung the vote for devolution was the media trying to tell us we couldn't cope on our own and a front page picture of maggie thatcher with the headline if you want to know why you should vote yes here she is.

Proportional representation makes a hell of a difference. for the first time votes actually count-left to the first past the post system we would still have a labour administration. Look at the situation nationally. labour have 35% of the vote at election and 100% of the power, in the thatcher years the ratios were much the same.

Most of the labour politicians are self serving crooked bastards. The SNP are the same but not quite as bad. and they've actually done quite well so far and many approve.

Basically we suffer from the same sense of isolation and disappoint with our parliamentarians as most of the English, we just have an alternative option. I think that has a lot to do with it.

If the opposition do manage to force a no confidence vote and we have another election In really don't know what the outcome would be.

Most scots are ambivalent about independence, many work abroad most go abroad regularly and we always have done and have always been outward looking. We want t keep in europe

So to get back to your question. I don't know it's as much cos we're fed up as anything else and that's sentiment shared by many in england. Much of our trade is with europe not just england especially farming produce and the like. We are also seeing increasingly an english based government that ignores our particular concerns and rides roughshod over our opposition to them. The BNP is more an english national party than a british one0just look at what they would do to the regional parliaments. The tory party also want to curb them but they have few supporters here anyway. labour need the Scottish MP's to get and stay in power in |Westminster. If the number of Scottish MP's is reduced it probably means the en of the labour party as viable political force. How do you see England over the next twenty years with predominantly right wing nationalist political parties holding sway? Will you still be in the EU? Our nationalist party tends to be more socialist in outlook rather than isolationist and right wing like UKIP and BNP.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:14 am

Where did anyone say it was the sole reason? Do you honestly expect a full list of everything that is expected in an independant Scotland in the matter of half an hour from 2 people?

If you had said there was some urgency i may have viewed the thread from another angle.

I did hope for something other than xenophobia to be expressed!

It is noticeable that no-one has said anything like, "I am a Scot who lives in Scotland and I want to pay my taxes to Edinburgh, stand for a Scottish Parliament and vote for political parties that reflect my local concerns."

What was said was: No offence but the whole point of independance is to get as far away from the southern neighbour as possible.

Where did anyone say racist bigotry was the main reason for the Scots wanting independence? See above: "...the WHOLE POINT of independence..." (my caps)

How do you see England over the next twenty years with predominantly right wing nationalist political parties holding sway? Will you still be in the EU? Our nationalist party tends to be more socialist in outlook rather than isolationist and right wing like UKIP and BNP.

It's one of the things that worries me. As you say, the loss of the Scottish Left will mess up the balance of power in Westminster. However, the English usually vote against a party as much or more than for another - we'll still see the same swings from left to right - it'll just cause some chaos until the system settles down again.

I believe (well, hope, at least) we are a mature enough polity to make sure no one party retains power for ever: the Tories got the heave-ho when they were morally and intellectually bankrupt and the same will happen to Labour at the next election (as long as the loony right keeps its collective gob shut).

If UKIP or especially the BNP filth get in I will, with great sorrow, be looking at leaving the country I love. In the same way a fair few Germans left Germany when the Nazis got in. I might be able to get into Ireland, NZ or Canada...

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:46 am

Quote Clod - "I am a Scot who lives in Scotland and I want to pay my taxes to Edinburgh, stand for a Scottish Parliament and vote for political parties that reflect my local concerns."

Well thats obvious. Cant really see why you need people to say it.

You then go on to talk about Scottish pubs during England matches like there is no bigotry shown in English pubs during football matches.

You then talk of a girl in Scotland being stabbed for being Scottish as if nobody in England has ever been stabbed for being a different nationality.

It seems to me that you are the one being bigoted here.

Yes the whole point of independance is to get away from you but not because you are English, if we were attatched to Spain i'd want away from them, not because they are Spanish - because i want to be independant. I want to see us run our own affairs, have control over our own reserves and have our own policies that make a difference to our people.

Great Britain means nothing to me, i am not British, i am Scottish.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:05 am

You then go on to talk about Scottish pubs during England matches like there is no bigotry shown in English pubs during football matches.

I have never seen a pub full of English folk watching a Scotland vs "anybody" match and cheering rabidly for "anybody".

You then talk of a girl in Scotland being stabbed for being Scottish as if nobody in England has ever been stabbed for being a different nationality.

We've got our racists. We don't approve of them. Being a racist in England is not socially acceptable, let alone legal. What is the reaction in Scotland when someone expresses dislike of the English? But I am not aware of anyone in England being glassed in the street for being Scottish. There would be an absolute furore. Can you find a case? I'd be interested to know. The girl, btw , is permanently scarred and was in danger of losing an eye (don't know if she did or not).

Quote Clod - "I am a Scot who lives in Scotland and I want to pay my taxes to Edinburgh, stand for a Scottish Parliament and vote for political parties that reflect my local concerns."

Well thats obvious. Cant really see why you need people to say it.

I don't "need" people to say it. But I am interested in the fact that no-one did.

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:37 am

Clodhopper;1234122 wrote: I have never seen a pub full of English folk watching a Scotland vs "anybody" match and cheering rabidly for "anybody".

Ive not been in England in those circumstances so cant comment but i have seen plenty of football violence in both England and Scotland, its football at the root of the problem not which team.

We've got our racists. We don't approve of them. Being a racist in England is not socially acceptable, let alone legal. What is the reaction in Scotland when someone expresses dislike of the English? But I am not aware of anyone in England being glassed in the street for being Scottish. There would be an absolute furore. Can you find a case? I'd be interested to know. The girl, btw , is permanently scarred and was in danger of losing an eye (don't know if she did or not).

I'm not saying we don't have racists, every country has racists, including England.

There have been a number of racist assaults on Scots by English people in recent years. In 2004 a Scottish war veteran was beaten up by a gang with bricks for having a Scottish accent.[3] In Aspatria, Cumbria, a group of Scottish school girls needed police protection after being attacked at a carnival. [4] In Bolton, in 2008, a Scottish schoolgirl was shot in the face by a youth who objected to her Scottish accent. [5] An English football supporter was banned for life for shouting "Kill all the Jocks" before attacking Scottish football fans. [6]

Additionally, there have been accounts of anti-Scottish hate campaigns in England which have resulted in Scots being forced out of their homes. [7][8].

There have been several recent cases of Scots being victims of racist attacks by English people within Scotland, suggesting that anti-Scottish attitudes are also prevalent among English people who choose to live or holiday in Scotland.

Source - Anti-Scottish sentiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't "need" people to say it. But I am interested in the fact that no-one did.

Only two people answered the thread and to be honest i thought you were going on about what policies we would like to see put in place rather than state the obvious.

Sorry i messed up the quotes, please see my reponses within your post which i have made bold.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:47 am

Thanks for that. Most interesting. Sorry about the old chap who was beaten up for having a Scottish accent by a gang of youths, though on reading the report in the Mirror it seems at least arguable that the gang was going to mug him whand the Scottish accent was a convenient excuse. Either way it is shameful.

I have never seen a pub full of English folk watching a Scotland vs "anybody" match and cheering rabidly for "anybody".

Ive not been in England in those circumstances so cant comment but i have seen plenty of football violence in both England and Scotland, its football at the root of the problem not which team.

Football violence is a bit of a different issue. Not a footie fan so know little about it. But I remember how shocked I was as a naive 19 year old student when I went into a Scottish pub during an England game and found the whole room absolutely HOWLING for whoever it was England were playing, and discovered that this was regarded as perfectly normal. I spent some time after that trying to understand what the heck this was all about and over the course of four years think I developed a pretty good idea. I was helped in this in that I was studying English and History, including a certain Mr R Burns.

It did affect me, though, and I have Rugby to thank for jolting me out of a certain malicious amusement at Scottish sporting discomforture: A friend got hit by a train and was coming out of a coma, slowly. He's Scottish and wasn't sure who he was, where he was or why, but when I described the Scottish hammering of the English in the monsoon at Murrayfield (2007) he knew he was Scottish alright! Grinning all over his evil little ginger bearded face (I can't help it - he really is a cliche Scot). Somehow, it put my petty malice in a proper perspective. The other thing was an article by James (I think) Beattie, the ex-international, being seriously worried at the amount of racism between all the nations of this island.

The upshot of it all is that I think this obsession with England is not good for you or us. If you need to get further away from us to get over it, that's fine. None of us can help our history, but to let it rule the present rather than guide it is not good. We are, quite literally, stuck together like it or not. We can make it hell in these islands or we can get along. I'd rather we got along.

Chookie · Post by **Chookie** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:41 pm

Great post gmc. I think you covered about everything....

Clodhopper;1234096 wrote: It is noticeable that no-one has said anything like, "I am a Scot who lives in Scotland and I want to pay my taxes to Edinburgh, stand for a Scottish Parliament and vote for political parties that reflect my local concerns."

That's a given. It doesn't need to be said...

I think what you're saying Clod is basically "let's forget the past". Unfortunately, forgetting the past allows us to make the same mistakes again and again.

el guapo · Post by **el guapo** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:03 pm

if ya take gordon brown back right now you have my vote

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:41 pm

That's a given. It doesn't need to be said...

I think what you're saying Clod is basically "let's forget the past". Unfortunately, forgetting the past allows us to make the same mistakes again and again.

It needs to be said, because (1) otherwise it looks as your motives are entirely negative and if they are entirely negative we'll have a failed state on our northern border in thirty or forty years. That's an important issue as far as I am concerned. (2) It may be a given North of the border, but it isn't South of it. Sometimes the obvious needs to be stated because it's not as obvious as one thinks.

I'm not saying forget the past. I'm saying let it guide us, not rule us. We have a choice: We can repeat the mistakes of the past (and they existed on both sides, though if it makes you happier, I'll freely admit that as the bigger, usually better organised state, England did most of the bashing. The Scots mostly bashed themselves) or we can move on to better relations between our countries in the future.

To me, it's a no-brainer but I do not underestimate the seductive power of hate.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:25 am

Clodhopper;1234217 wrote: It needs to be said, because (1) otherwise it looks as your motives are entirely negative and if they are entirely negative we'll have a failed state on our northern border in thirty or forty years. That's an important issue as far as I am concerned. (2) It may be a given North of the border, but it isn't South of it. Sometimes the obvious needs to be stated because it's not as obvious as one thinks.

I'm not saying forget the past. I'm saying let it guide us, not rule us. We have a choice: We can repeat the mistakes of the past (and they existed on both sides, though if it makes you happier, I'll freely admit that as the bigger, usually better organised state, England did most of the bashing. The Scots mostly bashed themselves) or we can move on to better relations between our countries in the future.

To me, it's a no-brainer but I do not underestimate the seductive power of hate.

It's a given up here. essentially we are weighing up whether we we want to make a final break or not. Most scots are ambivalent but the we see things being imposed on us we don't want and are unable to stop. The poll tax was a classic example. the foundation hospitals in the nhs would have been another but that is devolved and the fact you only have them in england because of scottish MP's the west lothian question is a serious issue that needs to be addressed-labour won't because it's the only way they keep power. we have a completely different legal system but yet we have things imposed because of a problem in england-that our scots MP's do nothing to stop. Scots labour MP's are seen as just serving thier own narrow political interests. It's becoming more would the SNP actually be better than the labour mafia and the jury is still out. Up until recently if you were career minded the SNP would not be the logical choice. Even my english wife voted SNP at the last election as a protest against labour as much as anything else.

Yes there is anti-english sentiment but the vast majority of scots don't actually think that way. I really don't know what the outcome would be if the opposition parties manage to win a vote of no confidence. The argument put for compassionate release of megrahi is one that I suspect resonates with a lot of scots. The kicking he is getting might be viewed as cynical opportunism by a group whose only interest is their own advancement. The easy option would actually have been to keep him in prison and the suggestion that it mandelson et al had anything to do with it is hilarious to anyone that understands scottish politics. The SNP would be more likely to stick up two fingers and do the exact opposite just to annoy gordon brown.

I would actually vote SNP at the next election-I voted no at that travesty of a referendum in the 1970's I voted yes for devolution as it was also bringing in proportional representation. we really need PR for the whole of the UK-that's what's really wrong we have government in power that don't feel they need to listen to the voters and it takes a major swing to get them out. I think labour are finished as viable political party, the tories look as if they are lurching to the right again, any move to come out of the EU would be a disaster for UK economy and we have muppets for politicians that just exchange slogans with each other in a form of masturbatory intellectual political debate that is pointless and achieves nothing.

posted by buttercup

Hi Clod

No offence but the whole point of independance is to get as far away from the southern neighbour as possible.

I can't speak for buttercup but I think I know what she means and it's not an anti english sentiment per se. more a we've had enough of this. As it happens being scots we have an alternative being presented to the shambles caused by first the tories an then new labour.

London 'subsidising Scots lifestyle', says Livingstone - The Scotsman

He eventually conceded he was wrong. It's also a myth that the south east subsidises the north of england. We need industry in this country, we need to trade. That's what created all the wealth in the south east in the first place. The delusion that the UK can survive as a service economy just moving money around has really come to home to roost hasn't it?

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:47 am

gmc: Chuckle. One of the reasons I'm happy with the mid-Lothian situation is that I approve of the leftward impetus of the Scots MPs. I also regard it as a sort of check.

Everyone: I find in the end that it's the relations between our people that matters more to me than the relations between our states. I didn't expect to find myself supporting the actions of an SNP minister, and certainly not that since the boycott was UK-wide my support had political significance rather than just being theoretical, but short of rebuilding Hadrian's Wall and bricking up the gates you have to deal with us and we with you and this poison that exists is very damaging. Incidentally, a straw poll amongst friends has revealed total support for the release on compassionate grounds.

One of the things that I've noticed about the responses of the three of you is that you all say things are obvious and a given. Well, they may be to people who have no doubt been discussing this amongst themselves, but to the people south of your border suddenly faced with the prospect of an independent state whose ability to survive is not certain and whose attitude comes across as generally fairly hostile, they aren't. There's also a suspicion that any time something goes wrong, the English will be blamed. I've read enough bad history on the subject...

Before the internet, most English people weren't aware of the hostility. With the internet, increasingly they are and the rise of English nationalism over the last 20 years (and I don't mean the BNP, though they have been a beneficiary) is one result. Anti EU feeling is the major factor, but increasing awareness of Scottish hostility also plays its part. Maybe as you say, gmc, it's only a minority, but it's a sizeable and vocal one and you very rarely see a Scot saying come on now lads, cool it. The result of that awareness is that I think there is now more anti-Scottish feeling in England than there was twenty years ago, and I don't like that trend, either.

The difference is that anti-Scottish feeling in England is regarded as a personal aberration and still not widely shared; in Scotland it's not even worthy of comment and it perpetuates and celebrates itself - by the ritual of supporting anyone against England as one obvious example: Beer, mates, and a damn good hate session. Combined with increasing anti-Scottishness, this has the potential to escalate. Especially under the stresses that the process of independence will cause. It's not a harmless game or just a joke. It has consequences.

And speaking of football violence, seems we had '80s style fighting at a game in London last night...West Ham, I think. With all the financial crisis fallout things are tense down here and violence not far below the surface.

Questions about whether you'll split along Highland and Lowland lines again can wait for another time.. :p

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:03 pm

Hmmmm

Your comments are interesting to me Clod as you seem to have some pretty fixed opinions on how the Scots are and no matter what the Scots say who reply to you. You stick by your opinions based on your university experiences.

I was in Iceland many years ago on a work placement, i did not have many happy experiences of that trip and yet i do not think all Icelandic people are the same based on the many tossers i met whilst there.

You say its the relationships that matter between our people then say our attitude (the Scots) is fairly hostile (sizeable and vocal) toward you. You further suggest Scottish people do not say 'cool it' or diffuse a situation. This to me makes you seem somewhat 'negative or bigoted' towards us as a people.

I can introduce you to many English people who live near me that absolutely adore living in Scotland and would never dream of returning to England to live, further to that vote SNP. They drink in my local pub and not one of them would say they get any harder a time during football season than any Rangers or Celtic supporter does (thats just football and pub culture).

In fact i extend a warm welcome to you to come here and see for yourself that what you imagine my people to be like is very far from what you have been fed in your media.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:17 am

buttercup: My opinions on the bigotry of some Scots were initially formed at Uni, but it's an issue I've kept an eye on over the years and it's never gone away. I do suspect that there are wide regional variations and the fact that you deny there's any issue at all, gmc says there is a small amount of issue, and Chookie shows signs of being part of the issue :sneaky: might support that. I met some wonderful folks at Uni and don't think the Scots are any more homogenous than the English are.

Consider the original question and answer:

Question: What do the Scots want from independence?

Answers: No offence but the whole point of independance is to get as far away from the southern neighbour as possible.

Definition of independance - The state or quality of being independent; freedom from dependence; exemption from reliance on, or control by, others; self-subsistence or maintenance; direction of one's own affairs without interference.

Hopefully a republic with a consience and no armed forces interfering in the affairs of other nations.

England may, by that time have developed a concept of Englishness which embraces all of the inhabitants of that land. Mind you, it may be a bit smaller as the Northen English seem to have more in common with the Scots than they do with Londoners.....

Which is the point I started to go on about negativity and bigotry. Can you see why?

Glad to hear you have a happily integrated locality. Can report the same here.

:wah: We dooccasionally have some alcohol related trouble outside nightclubs of a weekend, but the biggest racial issue round here in the last five years or so was when it was realised that the Korean community, which has been settled quietly in the next "village" since the 1950s at least, had barely noticed some of the law changes since then. Apocryphal but illustrative tale: Old Mr Wu had run his restaurant for twenty or thirty years, spoke hardly a word of English, and every night drove the half-mile home waaaaay over the limit without a seatbelt. Have to say it was handled well. Suddenly there were signs all over the place in Korean saying, "Don't drink and drive", "Remember your seatbelt", "Cannabis farms are illegal" etc etc.

Thanks for the kind invitation, but I won't be able to take you up on it for a while at least - my sister is getting married in NZ in January and I'm saving the dosh for that at present. I do have a vague plan to walk up the Tay at some point, but whether it'll come to anything is a different matter. It won't be before next Spring, that's for sure.

In the end please understand that I want a successful Scotland whether independent or not. Regardless of my personal feelings, it's a matter of self interest. And there is always a place for banter between the soft southern nances and the miserable northern hairies.

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:38 am

Clodhopper;1234720 wrote: buttercup: My opinions on the bigotry of some Scots were initially formed at Uni, but it's an issue I've kept an eye on over the years and it's never gone away.

In your opinion, which to me seems bigoted as you are speaking about a small amount of people. This does not represent the majority of Scottish people.

I do suspect that there are wide regional variations and the fact that you deny there's any issue at all,

I'm not denying there is any issues, i said there are bigots here but there are also bigots in England.

gmc says there is a small amount of issue, and Chookie shows signs of being part of the issue :sneaky: might support that. I met some wonderful folks at Uni and don't think the Scots are any more homogenous than the English are.

If thats true why do you keep bumping your gums about hatred ect?

Consider the original question and answer:

Question: What do the Scots want from independence?

Answers:

Which is the point I started to go on about negativity and bigotry. Can you see why?

No i cant, sorry Clod but you have to be pretty thick if you don't see that we don't hate you we just want to go on our own because being with you just does not work for us, i cant speak for Chookie but think i represent the feelings of most regarding this matter.

Glad to hear you have a happily integrated locality. Can report the same here.

Em hello, look at your own words, the problem is not a big one.

In the end please understand that I want a successful Scotland whether independent or not. Regardless of my personal feelings, it's a matter of self interest. And there is always a place for banter between the soft southern nances and the miserable northern hairies.

In the end for me i'm really not very surprised you got a hard time at uni. Does your wife ever say - You are stubborn or just don't listen?

Again i must apologize for my awful quote's. My answers are in bold type. I do hope you do not find it irritating to follow.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:52 am

I didn't have a hard time at uni. Had a great time, as students generally do.

Good luck in your efforts to saw yourself off at the border.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:23 pm

Id like to see the Scots stop catupulting large rocks and flinging burning spears at eachother. No tourist wants to see bloodied mangled bodies lying all over the country side.

Its icky.

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:25 pm

Clodhopper;1234806 wrote: I didn't have a hard time at uni. Had a great time, as students generally do.

Good luck in your efforts to saw yourself off at the border.

What subject did you study and why did you come to Scotland to study it?

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:26 pm

Nomad;1234840 wrote: Id like to see the Scots stop catupulting large rocks and flinging burning spears at eachother. No tourist wants to see bloodied mangled bodies lying all over the country side.

Its icky.

You wont have to worry babe, apparently nobody from America is coming to visit now :sneaky:

Chookie · Post by **Chookie** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:23 pm

Clodhopper;1234720 wrote: .....and Chookie shows signs of being part of the issue :sneaky: might support that. I met some wonderful folks at Uni and don't think the Scots are any more homogenous than the English are.
Now that was unworthy of you Clod.

Unlike you, I was subjected to the horrors of an English Uni (unnamed to protect the guilty), and I got the usual nonsense about accents and attitudes, with the addition of racism from the Dons. Oh, they didn't call it that and me, being a typical student (young, poor (very), usually pissed, and innocent) didn't think about it.

Clodhopper;1234720 wrote: In the end please understand that I want a successful Scotland whether independent or not. Regardless of my personal feelings, it's a matter of self interest. And there is always a place for banter between the soft southern nances and the miserable northern hairies.

An independent Scotland will be successful, more so than a non-independent Scotland which is tied to the Westmonster way of doing things.

While I'm here can you explain how Scotland is apparently playing Australia - at cricket??

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:29 am

posted by clodhopper

buttercup: My opinions on the bigotry of some Scots were initially formed at Uni, but it's an issue I've kept an eye on over the years and it's never gone away. I do suspect that there are wide regional variations and the fact that you deny there's any issue at all, gmc says there is a small amount of issue, and Chookie shows signs of being part of the issue might support that. I met some wonderful folks at Uni and don't think the Scots are any more homogenous than the English are.

My english wife, inspired by the austin powers character fat bastard now thinks itb a suitable sobriquet for me

YouTube - Austin Powers - The Best of Fat Bastard

is she being racist? should my feelings be hurt at the constant portrayal of scots in soaps as thick aggressive drunks when the reality is the world owes a great deal to scots philosophers, scientists, engineers. We don't blow our own trumpet a lot because we are a quiet modest people who like to get along with people but who are increasingly getting fed up with westminster.

I think of the reluctance to contemplate it seriously before was the realisation that we would end up being governed by the loony left-and not the noble self sacrificing individuals of the Scottish socialist party (yes i am being facetious in case you are wondering) but the money grabbing hypocritical self seeking arseholes of the labour party. In political terms a hypocrite is a politician busy shafting you who tells you it is for your own good but knows it isn't and doesn't really care, a noble self sacrificing politician is one that actually believes it is for your own good.

Some of the SNP councillors are proving themselves to be just as corrupt and devious as the labour ones (how do you tell the difference between a dishonest tory councillor and a labour one? answer: The tories are in jail cos they got caught-that was a joke I first heard in Dundee in the days of george galloway being a councillor there) On the other hand some are showing signs of having a little integrity. I can't speak for everybody but generally I think MacasKill's decision to release the lockerbie bomber is seen as one taken for genuine reasons rather than purely political ones-however much people might disagree. having a politician doing what he thinks right rather than what is best for his career is a novelty that might do them some good. The opposition come across as wee boys that want the ball back so they can control the game again.

You really can't put your finger on what scots want from independence, what it might do is get politics back in the hands of ordinary people. Proportional representation is a good thing. Even the tories up here agree-mainly cos it's the only way they get any seats at all. If you had it in england generally speaking I think the protest votes would go to more right wing parties-we tend to vote for more left wing ones.

If the proposed boycott has any effect I don't think people will blame the SNP being bright enough to work out it is the americans and if anything it might crystallise support for the SNP. Opposition to the war in afghanistan is fairly intense anyway not helped by Tony blair doing away with the scottish regiments helped along by gordon the gopher. If they boycott scottish goods then the general reaction is more likely to be F YOU let's pull our troops now.

Thanks for the kind invitation, but I won't be able to take you up on it for a while at least - my sister is getting married in NZ in January and I'm saving the dosh for that at present. I do have a vague plan to walk up the Tay at some point, but whether it'll come to anything is a different matter. It won't be before next Spring, that's for sure.

Typical Englishman-think you can walk on water:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:01 am

Nooo. Had replied to all of you and have just wiped several hours typing.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:05 am

sigh. Start again. It's never as good the second time.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:57 am

What subject did you study and why did you come to Scotland to study it?

I wanted to live in another part of the British Isles, I wanted to get a long way from home and Mediaeval History wasn't a particularly common course. Ended up doing English at Senior Honours because I was enjoying it more. Nowadays read mostly history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodhopper

.....and Chookie shows signs of being part of the issue might support that. I met some wonderful folks at Uni and don't think the Scots are any more homogenous than the English are.

Chookie: Now that was unworthy of you Clod.

Was it? "...shows signs of..." not "...is...". Perhaps what I'm picking up on is explained by the next bit:

Unlike you, I was subjected to the horrors of an English Uni (unnamed to protect the guilty), and I got the usual nonsense about accents and attitudes, with the addition of racism from the Dons. Oh, they didn't call it that and me, being a typical student (young, poor (very), usually pissed, and innocent) didn't think about it.

I'm sorry to hear that. Your resentment is understandable. sigh. And so it goes on.

An independent Scotland will be successful, more so than a non-independent Scotland which is tied to the Westmonster way of doing things.

I hope so, but I continue to feel that the vein of ill feeling that exists reduces the chances of that success. The situation is a bit chicken-and-egg, but to pretend it doesn't exist helps no one. The stresses imposed by the processes of independence will be bad enough as it is.

While I'm here can you explain how Scotland is apparently playing Australia - at cricket??

You've started to have a cricket team at World 20/20 competitions and the Aussies are doing their bit to help raise the profile of the game in Scotland. Until recently, Scots who wanted to play top flight international cricket had to play for England-and-Wales, who are in fact the Marylebone Cricket Club. You've been around in the second tier for a long time. Strange but mostly true.

gmc:

is she being racist?

Nope. Married. Don't look to me for sympathy. It was you chose to marry an Englishwoman.

should my feelings be hurt at the constant portrayal of scots in soaps as thick aggressive drunks

We should all be offended by soaps. But that's a personal hobbyhorse. Or failing. Or both.

I think of the reluctance to contemplate it seriously before was the realisation that we would end up being governed by the loony left-and not the noble self sacrificing individuals of the Scottish socialist party (yes i am being facetious in case you are wondering) but the money grabbing hypocritical self seeking arseholes of the labour party. In political terms a hypocrite is a politician busy shafting you who tells you it is for your own good but knows it isn't and doesn't really care, a noble self sacrificing politician is one that actually believes it is for your own good.

Some of the SNP councillors are proving themselves to be just as corrupt and devious as the labour ones (how do you tell the difference between a dishonest tory councillor and a labour one? answer: The tories are in jail cos they got caught-that was a joke I first heard in Dundee in the days of george galloway being a councillor there) On the other hand some are showing signs of having a little integrity. I can't speak for everybody but generally I think MacasKill's decision to release the lockerbie bomber is seen as one taken for genuine reasons rather than purely political ones-however much people might disagree. having a politician doing what he thinks right rather than what is best for his career is a novelty that might do them some good. The opposition come across as wee boys that want the ball back so they can control the game again.

You really can't put your finger on what scots want from independence, what it might do is get politics back in the hands of ordinary people. Proportional representation is a good thing. Even the tories up here agree-mainly cos it's the only way they get any seats at all. If you had it in england generally speaking I think the protest votes would go to more right wing parties-we tend to vote for more left wing ones.

If the proposed boycott has any effect I don't think people will blame the SNP being bright enough to work out it is the americans and if anything it might crystallise support for the SNP. Opposition to the war in afghanistan is fairly intense anyway not helped by Tony blair doing away with the scottish regiments helped along by gordon the gopher. If they boycott scottish goods then the general reaction is more likely to be F YOU let's pull our troops now.

I wonder how much of what Macaskill did was simple naivete. Once the novelty has worn off it's same old same old.

The removal of the Scottish influence will, as you say, cause a lurch to the right at Westminster that will last longer and possibly be deeper than would be the case if Scottish votes were included. As a Lib Dem, I'm a PR supporter for obvious reasons, but have no illusions it's going to happen just like that. Scottish independence will also cause a public opinion backlash in England fuelled by the Press. You can imagine what the Mail will say. The process of disentanglement will be an effin nightmare, but that's a different thread.

Without any doubt the Americans have shot themselves in the foot over this one. Ironic applause from this piece of collateral damage, who has found his support for release on compassionate grounds makes him an Islamic fundamentalist terrorist. :-5

Typical Englishman-think you can walk on water

Clearly you have never heard of the Patented Clodhopper Lib Dem PR Hippie Commie Jesus Sandals, which inflate on contact with H2O and, powered by the indignation of the American Religious Right, should carry me over most obstacles. Except possibly Nationalist Socialist waterfalls.

Chookie · Post by **Chookie** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:29 pm

Good post Clod. But I wouldn't call it resentment per se, more like an extended feeling of pissed-offness.

Clodhopper;1235068 wrote: Except possibly Nationalist Socialist waterfalls.

Sorry, we don't have any, will Scottish Nationalist waterfalls suffice?

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:08 am

I wouldn't call it resentment per se, more like an extended feeling of pissed-offness

:wah: I know the feeling. Not a bad description of about 1500 years history!

It's worth remembering that if you compare us with other long term quarrelling neighbours we haven't done so badly - think Serb/Croat, Teuton/Slav...

will Scottish Nationalist waterfalls suffice?

I do have the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that the SNP are quite Left wing. So we're talking Socialist, Nationalist waterfalls...? :p

I like waterfalls, and the Falls of Dochart are on my list. Though I have the impression they are more rapid-ey. Big and tea-coloured coming down over rocks. If I get there, I'll spend hours just watching the water.

Chookie · Post by **Chookie** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:57 pm

Clodhopper;1235585 wrote: I do have the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that the SNP are quite Left wing. So we're talking Socialist, Nationalist waterfalls...?
Definitely left-wing compared to the Labour Party (not that that's difficult!).

Clodhopper;1235585 wrote: I like waterfalls, and the Falls of Dochart are on my list. Though I have the impression they are more rapid-ey. Big and tea-coloured coming down over rocks. If I get there, I'll spend hours just watching the water.
Rapid-ey they are and beautiful too. Take yourself a wee dram, and collect some of the water. Mix and drink. Heavenly.