National Service?

Rapunzel · Post by **Rapunzel** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:04 am

Moving on from the post below . . . what do you think of the idea of reintroducing National Service for all 16-18 year olds?

Is it a good idea? bad idea?

Should it just be for delinquents in trouble with the law?

Should it be for some or all misdemeanors where people would get the choice of National Service for 2 years or 6 months plus in the clink?

Would it be better than sending them to prison for 6 months or a year?

What do you think?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:22 am

Rapunzel;1241087 wrote: Moving on from the post below . . . what do you think of the idea of reintroducing National Service for all 16-18 year olds?

Is it a good idea? bad idea?

Should it just be for delinquents in trouble with the law?

Should it be for some or all misdemeanors where people would get the choice of National Service for 2 years or 6 months plus in the clink?

Would it be better than sending them to prison for 6 months or a year?

What do you think?

Not National Service, No and Not prison. We need correctional facilities to re-habilitate trouble teens for 6 months before they go on to more serious crime. I'm In favour of bringing back Borstal.

Rapunzel · Post by **Rapunzel** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:41 am

oscar;1241094 wrote: Not National Service, No and Not prison. We need correctional facilities to re-habilitate trouble teens for 6 months before they go on to more serious crime. I'm In favour of bringing back Borstal.

Interesting idea. I think you'd need to give it a new name though. I think the word Borstal has too many negative associations.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:00 am

Rapunzel;1241099 wrote: Interesting idea. I think you'd need to give it a new name though. I think the word Borstal has too many negative associations.
Yes agreed... they could not be as they were in the 50's onwards. I was thinking more of an Institution where they got education as well as rehabilitation along with reward on successfully getting through their 6 months or year with no further problems.

Rapunzel · Post by **Rapunzel** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:07 am

oscar;1241104 wrote: Yes agreed... they could not be as they were in the 50's onwards. I was thinking more of an Institution where they got education as well as rehabilitation along with reward on successfully getting through their 6 months or year with no further problems.

A great idea, but how do you think education would work here if it didn't work for them at school? What would you do differently? (Just curious)

kazalala · Post by **kazalala** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:16 am

i dont like the idea of national service,, but then im a big softy:o but as an alternative to prison,, for young offenders or ones who would be looking at jail for the firt time,, yes i thikn as there is no other alternative at the moment , that might be better.

Rapunzel · Post by **Rapunzel** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:23 am

kazalala;1241111 wrote: i dont like the idea of national service,, me too but then im a big softy:o me too but as an alternative to prison,, for young offenders or ones who would be looking at jail for the firt time,, yes i thikn as there is no other alternative at the moment , i agree that might be better. i agree

:-6

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:42 am

Rapunzel;1241109 wrote: A great idea, but how do you think education would work here if it didn't work for them at school? What would you do differently? (Just curious)

I think many teenagers who get into crime in the first Instance are lacking in some-thing some-where. An Institution where they recieved further education and even to become involved in the community by doing park gardening etc, gives them a sense of respect and contribution to society. At the same time, It should be no picnic so they learn discipline and respect. Rewards need to be earned. Alternative Interests other than tv and sitting on a pc all day. Even controlled work experience on a daily basis whilst under the care of trained people. Some could leave with goals in their lives instead of returning to roaming the streets aimlessly out of boredom. They should be praised, encouraged and taught that in this world, you have to contribute.

Rapunzel · Post by **Rapunzel** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:55 am

oscar;1241117 wrote: I think many teenagers who get into crime in the first Instance are lacking in some-thing some-where. An Institution where they recieved further education and even to become involved in the community by doing park gardening etc, gives them a sense of respect and contribution to society. At the same time, It should be no picnic so they learn discipline and respect. Rewards need to be earned. Alternative Interests other than tv and sitting on a pc all day. Even controlled work experience on a daily basis whilst under the care of trained people. Some could leave with goals in their lives instead of returning to roaming the streets aimlessly out of boredom. They should be praised, encouraged and taught that in this world, you have to contribute.

An excellent answer. I agree with what you have to say. I also think that whilst youngsters have rights, they should also have respect. You cannot have one without the other. So how do you think we could teach discipline and respect in schools and how could you enforce the lessons to be learned?

And what could be done to stop them roaming the streets aimlessly out of boredom? What could we do to encourage them in hobbies that keep them off the street but don't involve tv's or computers?

I think we need a new "Common Sense" Party. A Party to get rid of all this PC rubbish and make plain common sense decisions!

What do you think?

What would you do to make this happen?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:11 am

Rapunzel;1241121 wrote: An excellent answer. I agree with what you have to say. I also think that whilst youngsters have rights, they should also have respect. You cannot have one without the other. So how do you think we could teach discipline and respect in schools and how could you enforce the lessons to be learned?

And what could be done to stop them roaming the streets aimlessly out of boredom? What could we do to encourage them in hobbies that keep them off the street but don't involve tv's or computers?

I think we need a new "Common Sense" Party. A Party to get rid of all this PC rubbish and make plain common sense decisions!

What do you think?

What would you do to make this happen? All the good put into practice in an institution would be totally wasted if they come out to more of the same pc crap. The police need massive extra funding to put more bobbies back on the beat. Teachers and School governors need to be handed back total control and not directed by the white collars in Whitehall. The penal system needs a major reform so that teenagers coming out know that there are no more chances. If they commit a crime again, no soft police cautions, no soft magistrates.

I have always believed that learning respect for others, manners, social graces and respect for anothers property begins at toddler age with the parents. If the parents have failed to give this when they are young, it's difficult to instill that into a stroppy teenager but it can be done by going back to basics. Once the basics are covered, they need to come out to a country that will offer them some sort of chance. Again, massive Investment is needed into youth activities and facilities. They have to have somewhere to go, something to do, something to want to get up in the morning for, something to look forward to. That is what is so missing here in this country right now. Even coming out to an Apprenticeship in a trade that they are interested in with rewards from government to the Industry's and businesses that take them on.

I remember a few months ago I watched a documentary on 'Hoodies' In an area oup north. It was about the mayhem these gangs created in their community and I remember as it started thinking that I was going to get really annoyed watching them. After a very short time, although their anti-social behaviour was indeed shocking, I actually felt so sorry for them. They had nothing. No jobs to go for because Industry had been closed down long before, no investment in activities for them... nothing. I remember one lad saying 'we just want some-where to go'.

Post by **spot** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:31 am

Rapunzel;1241087 wrote: Moving on from the post below . . . what do you think of the idea of reintroducing National Service for all 16-18 year olds?

You're thinking, presumably, of National Service within the Armed Forces?

For 16-18 year olds?

What are they meant to do on Her Majesty's behalf? The UK has signed international treaties forbidding anyone in that age group from serving in any war zone. If you want the Army to take them on as a national childminder I suspect you'd find the greatest resistance to the idea would come from within the Army itself. They seem, for some reason, to consider themselves a professional body with entry standards.

FUBAR · Post by **FUBAR** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:52 pm

spot;1241174 wrote: You're thinking, presumably, of National Service within the Armed Forces?

For 16-18 year olds?

What are they meant to do on Her Majesty's behalf? The UK has signed international treaties forbidding anyone in that age group from serving in any war zone. If you want the Army to take them on as a national childminder I suspect you'd find the greatest resistance to the idea would come from within the Army itself. They seem, for some reason, to consider themselves a professional body with entry standards.

And what are you going to do with them if they refuse to follow your national service idea...shoot a few to encourage the rest. If they can't be stopped causing mayhem on the street why would they stop anywhere else. All you would do is transport the problem from civilian courts to military courts, you cannot force people to obey orders without their co-operation.

lou lou belle · Post by **lou lou belle** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:14 am

I dont think National service is the answer.

I have dealt with a lot of teenagers in the past. I think that there is a lot of misrepresentation about teenangers. Not all commit crime or are a nuisance to society.

I had a newletter in the post from the local council that stated that more teenagers are remaining in school and continuing their education. I admit that i live in a low crime area (South Gloucestershire) and the teenagers in my area are really nice. There is often a group of them that often congregate by my local shop. But they never cause any problems.

I think there are definately ways of dealing with problem teenagers but it is far more indepth. You have to try and understand why these children have no values in life and why they feel commiting crime is acceptable. Could you blame their family, in some cases i have seen, most definately. Could you say that the legal system does not act as a deterant. Yes in some cases, some of these teenagers know the legal system and to be involved in crime is actually the norm for them and their friends.

Could you say that these teenagers have no direction in their life, most definately.

So who do we blame and what is the solution?

Some say that putting them in the forces is the solution, this is not.

I am ex forces and would hate to serve with a person that has been forced to enlist. How trustworthy would they be? Loyalty, honesty and commitment is an integral part of being in the forces.

bringing back borstal would never work, these are hardened teenagers that come from a society that is hardened to life. They would laugh at anyone trying to get heavy with them.

Education could be the key, ensuring that these teenagers have more to offer in life than to live a life of crime. Perhaps bringing back the YTS scheme, and giving them a sense of purpose.

More importantly is if you have been brought up with moral values then you understand the consequences of what it means to commit an offence.

Most of the teenagers that commit crime have morals, most would never kill someone, some would never rob an elderly person. Most would never rape or harm a child. Some would never use hard drugs. So what we have to understand is if they are certain crimes they would never commit then it does show that there is always an element of knowing what is right from wrong.

It is a shame that these teenagers have no sense of purpose. But at least these teenagers are a very small minority when you actually look at the stats on how many young adults exsist in the UK that are living perfectly well adjusted lives with a sense of common purpose and moral values.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:15 am

Violent youth crime up a third - Telegraph

Anyone who seems to be under the Illusion that youth crime and gang culture in this country is not the biggest problem government and police have is duluded and living in the past. From stats I have been given myself, the true rise of youth crime last year was 40% dispite the government spin smudging the figures. Even criminal damage has in effect been de-criminalised unless it's over £500 as the courts simply can not cope.

Even with the stats... youths actually being caught, cautioned or appearing in court are no reflection on the true crime figures in Britain simply because many many go un-caught until it becomes a more serious crime. The police simply do not have the man-power to come out to every group of youths causing a section 4 or section 5. Their behaviour gets worse until it becomes serious and then it is too late. Anti- social behaviour is everywhere not just limited to inner city areas. If you haven't seen it, then try midnight at the local shops in your area instead of 3 in the afternoon...

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:05 pm

Hmmm, yeah i like the idea of some sort of national service, taste of reality just not sure if its in the Army. How about they serve time as police cadets, assistants to ambulance drivers or assistant fire crew.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:12 pm

buttercup;1241620 wrote: Hmmm, yeah i like the idea of some sort of national service, taste of reality just not sure if its in the Army. How about they serve time as police cadets, assistants to ambulance drivers or assistant fire crew. Sorry Cupcake... don't agree. The police, ambulance or any other emergency service is not equiped to wet nurse criminal or troubled teenagers. Most of these teenagers have absolutely no respect for the police what-so-ever anyway so why should they feel privaliged to work within them? The Implications and complications would be far beyond the realm of practicality. These services are emergency services and simply do not have the funding, man-power or the means to be taking on troubled teens any more than the army has.

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:15 pm

Oh i was not targeting the trouble makers Oscar, i meant i like the idea for all 16 to 18 year olds to have to do some sort of service if they leave school that early.

Personally i'd rather they stayed in education.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:19 pm

buttercup;1241628 wrote: Oh i was not targeting the trouble makers Oscar, i meant i like the idea for all 16 to 18 year olds to have to do some sort of service if they leave school that early.

Personally i'd rather they stayed in education. In that case... I would think it a good idea for teenagers to do some work experience in that arena. I believe there are all ready schemes in place in England. Don't know about the police... I'll ask at our next meeting.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:33 pm

I think there's a lot to be said for something along the Nat Serv lines perhaps involving public works, but it would be expensive and require a lot of people to run. Also, questions of responsibility should someone die while on National Service are likely to be difficult. And what do you do with the stroppy little so and so who simply refuses to go along with anything? Human Rights start being involved at that point.

It might be an idea the time for which has come, called something like Community Service and providing manpower for useful projects. Serving in the Forces could be one option available. Lots of problems with it but I like the basic idea.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:09 pm

Clodhopper;1241637 wrote: . And what do you do with the stroppy little so and so who simply refuses to go along with anything? Human Rights start being involved at that point.

.
At the weekend, there was cause to have no less than 5 police units out to teenagers. The attitude towards the police officers was nothing short of disgraceful. They tried in vain to break up a large group and move them on. Most just stood there arguing with the officers and refusing point blank to leave. One young WPC who was very proffessional looked at me and said quietly 'I'm sick of it... absolutely sick of it'. Her face was just despair. That is the true reflection of teenagers in this country. Don't you think those 5 units could be doing some-thing far more pressing on a saturday night than that.? What makes anyone think the forces would be able to get over this problem better than the police?

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:18 pm

I suspect the heart of the solution lies in an overhaul of Primary and Secondary Education and something like a doubling of money spent per child, a massive expansion of boarding and effective power devolved to schools. I ain't holding my breath.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:26 pm

Clodhopper;1241686 wrote: I suspect the heart of the solution lies in an overhaul of Primary and Secondary Education and something like a doubling of money spent per child, a massive expansion of boarding and effective power devolved to schools. I ain't holding my breath.
I think your right.

Post by **spot** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:47 pm

buttercup;1241620 wrote: Hmmm, yeah i like the idea of some sort of national service, taste of reality just not sure if its in the Army. How about they serve time as police cadets, assistants to ambulance drivers or assistant fire crew.

On any given day there's two million of them. Are you sure any of these organizations can cope with that volume of trainees?

What's distasteful about this thread is that it's a discussing compulsory activity no more or less onerous than an equivalent period of imprisonment for everyone leaving school in this country. The idea's intolerable.

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:15 am

So are teenagers.

lou lou belle · Post by **lou lou belle** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:26 am

hey! my sons a teenager and is a credit to us.

He is doing well in school, plays football and rugby for school and the local clubs.

He plays the piano and writes his own music.

He has great friends who respect others and the law.

Just because a few teenagers cause problems you should not tar everyone with the same brush.