Such a selfish, thoughtless society that we live in. 'I, me, my' all the time

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spot
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Such a selfish, thoughtless society that we live in. 'I, me, my' all the time

Post by spot »

G#Gill;1260791 wrote: It is such a selfish, thoughtless society that we live in. 'I, me, my' all the bloody time. Gill, name me a period and a place when you'd not have thought it was such a selfish, thoughtless society that you were living in, without the 'I, me, my' all the bloody time. Or has there never been one?
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Such a selfish, thoughtless society that we live in. 'I, me, my' all the time

Post by Oscar Namechange »

G#Gill;1260791 wrote: It is such a selfish, thoughtless society that we live in. 'I, me, my' all the bloody time. My hubby didn't really believe me when I said there would be more fireworks let off tonight, but I was right. Also I was constantly woken up until about 4 am last night, by pratts sauntering up and down the nearby roads letting off bangers every couple of minutes ffs. I didn't go to bed till 2 am as it was, because there were still bangers going off all over the place. :-5:-5:-5 Your spot on there Gill.

It is not just the firewoks is it? It's a whole breakdown of manners and consideration for anything or anyone else. It's that 'ME' generation. Youngsters can't seem to stand outside your lounge window on a sunday and talk normally, they have to scream and shout. I have seen cars park up in the road to use the cash point machine, fully aware they are stopping every other car getting past. Cars pull up outside my house to turn round in the lane late at night with rap music blaring on all speakers. Of course, It would never enter their heads that folk would be asleep or they may be waking babies up... NO. I was brought up that you never ever phone anyone after 9 pm at night, something I still abide by, yet It's Ok for anyone ( Not my family) to phone me at 11 pm. Oh, I could go on and on.

Like you Gill, we have had bangers going off every night for weeks up to 2 am. There is no point in calling the police If you can not pin point exactly where they coming from.
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Such a selfish, thoughtless society that we live in. 'I, me, my' all the time

Post by spot »

oscar;1260811 wrote: Your spot on there Gill.Go on then, you can play the "name me a period and a place when you'd not have thought it was" game too.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

spot;1260814 wrote: Go on then, you can play the "name me a period and a place when you'd not have thought it was" game too.
Pre 70's.
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Such a selfish, thoughtless society that we live in. 'I, me, my' all the time

Post by G#Gill »

spot;1260808 wrote: Gill, name me a period and a place when you'd not have thought it was such a selfish, thoughtless society that you were living in, without the 'I, me, my' all the bloody time. Or has there never been one?


Certainly was, when I was in my teens. Youngsters were brought up to respect people and property. Not many do that these days. I think the rot set in when the powers that be banned the cane in schools (except private ones). That is all I have to say about it, as this could be tantamount to derailing this thread by steering it off topic.
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Post by spot »

G#Gill;1260821 wrote: Youngsters were brought up to respect people and property. Not many do that these days.


Twaddle, Gill, the majority of children today are brought up just so now. I think it's obvious the pair of you are looking back to halcyon days that never existed and completely oblivious to the reality of life in this country today. It's like watching a pair of scolds stood at the village pump shaking their heads and nervously eyeing the ducking stool.
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Post by G#Gill »

spot;1260841 wrote: Twaddle, Gill, the majority of children today are brought up just so now. I think it's obvious the pair of you are looking back to halcyon days that never existed and completely oblivious to the reality of life in this country today. It's like watching a pair of scolds stood at the village pump shaking their heads and nervously eyeing the ducking stool.


Mr. Spot, would you kindly refrain from trying to wind me up, because I will not play your 'game'. Your stab at sarcasm has crumbled into a pit of darkness.

Fin.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

spot;1260841 wrote: Twaddle, Gill, the majority of children today are brought up just so now. I think it's obvious the pair of you are looking back to halcyon days that never existed and completely oblivious to the reality of life in this country today. It's like watching a pair of scolds stood at the village pump shaking their heads and nervously eyeing the ducking stool.
Then you need a reality check. Get yourself down the city centre at 3 am when the clubs are kicking out. Get yourself a TV and watch 'Street Crime' to see exactly how yobs behave at night.

I have said this on another thread but:

The big big difference between today and say pre 80's was that the teenagers who were violent were in the majority either, Mods, Rockers, Skinheads, hells Angels etc. Most violence was carried out between equally violent gangs and the football terraces. Random violence did happen, of course It did but the difference today is the statistics for random violent crime on people singled out in the street.

Over three days, I have read about a bride beaten up on her wedding day by male yobs meaning she spent the night in hospital, simply because she was wearing a goth wedding dress.

Yesterday, was the case of Police hunting two female teenage muggers who not only assaulted the woman, they punched her two year baby in the head.

I have been reading today about a mother who was so badly beaten in the street by a male thug that she had to have her eye removed. Her crime was to ask him not to swear infront of her young daughter.

Sophie Lancaster was beaten to death in a park by male teenagers because she was dressed as a Goth.

I could go on and on. That is the difference today. The lack of consideration for other people has reached such depths that they are kicking to death a young girl in a park and punching the eye out of a mother in the street.

Read this article Spot from two days ago. I know It's the Daily Mail but It does tie in with the rise in crime stats of youths. Why do you think even the Labour Government announced very recently that 'Yob Culture' was a pandemic?

In the bumph I have from the 'Restorative Justice Programme', It states that two thirds of violent crime are carried out by under 18's. You need to get In the real world Spot.

Random attack by thugs every 30 seconds as 'stranger assaults' soar in binge Britain | Mail Online
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Post by Skylark »

spot;1260841 wrote: Twaddle, Gill, the majority of children today are brought up just so now. I think it's obvious the pair of you are looking back to halcyon days that never existed and completely oblivious to the reality of life in this country today. It's like watching a pair of scolds stood at the village pump shaking their heads and nervously eyeing the ducking stool.


There is less respect now and there was. No doubt about that. The world is full of disrespect from all ages. It would seem that some parents do not show their children how to respect all people and their belongings!
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Post by K.Snyder »

Could it not be suggested that it's not a matter of never having seen selfishness rather it's more so about how selfishness etc.. is represented more so in relation to population increase in the logarithmic sense? Perhaps it's more so apparent now due to this? A hypothesis?
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Post by chonsigirl »

That is an interesting thought, KS.

I have young teens around me all day long. I do not find them anymore selfish now, than they were when I first started teaching. They are just kids. You set the boundaries, and things usually flow quite well.

Still alot of very good kids, we do not have to always think of the negative aspect of them. I go away from work with a good laugh, a smile at something they did.
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Post by Omni_Skittles »

Sorry, we're just having fun!!!! sorry to burst your bubbles next time i blare my music down a street while screaming cat calls at 2 am i'll maybe stop and think about how my actions are effecting the people around me... maybe :)
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Post by G#Gill »

Omni_Skittles;1260994 wrote: Sorry, we're just having fun!!!! sorry to burst your bubbles next time i blare my music down a street while screaming cat calls at 2 am i'll maybe stop and think about how my actions are effecting the people around me... maybe :)


That would be good OS. If people just put themselves in another person's position, like if you were in bed and just drifting off to a much needed sleep, then suddenly a blast of some rapping track hit you through your bedroom window, or yelling drunks woke you with a jolt, you would not be a happy bunny, particularly if you had to get up early in the morning for work ! It's all a matter of consideration for others' quality of life, innit? :-6 ;)
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

G#Gill;1261004 wrote: That would be good OS. If people just put themselves in another person's position, like if you were in bed and just drifting off to a much needed sleep, then suddenly a blast of some rapping track hit you through your bedroom window, or yelling drunks woke you with a jolt, you would not be a happy bunny, particularly if you had to get up early in the morning for work ! It's all a matter of consideration for others' quality of life, innit? :-6 ;)
I tell you something else that this country has become also over the years and that is a blame culture. It is never their fault is it? They are reckless, smash into your car in your drive, but It's apparently, OUR fault for living next to a school that they need to get to. Even when these yobs are caught red handed, it's 'I ain't dun nuffin' and deny deny deny. Adults are just as bad. It's not my fault I have to spend my Benifit money on alcohol and ciggs, It's the Governments fault..and I'm depressed.

The society needs to take responsibility for their own actions Instead of this blame culture.
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Post by buttercup »

Interesting thread. Its easy to look back and think things were better. When it comes to kids causing trouble its always been done, just in different ways.

An elderly lady up the road from me was telling me some stories of her youth and local kids used to block up people's chimmneys and smoke them out. Hardly blaring rap music but very dangerous.
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Post by Chezzie »

buttercup;1261062 wrote: Interesting thread. Its easy to look back and think things were better. When it comes to kids causing trouble its always been done, just in different ways.

An elderly lady up the road from me was telling me some stories of her youth and local kids used to block up people's chimmneys and smoke them out. Hardly blaring rap music but very dangerous.


Remember knock knock? Seriously that must of been well annoying:sneaky:

Also the finger hole marks in the tinfoil lid of your milk bottle?:lips:
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Post by Bruv »

I have tried but cannot find quotations from Roman times, adults complaining about the youth of that time, they might as well have been made today.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

buttercup;1261062 wrote: Interesting thread. Its easy to look back and think things were better. When it comes to kids causing trouble its always been done, just in different ways.

An elderly lady up the road from me was telling me some stories of her youth and local kids used to block up people's chimmneys and smoke them out. Hardly blaring rap music but very dangerous.
It's not about kids causing trouble so much BC. As Kids, my brother and I were absolute buggers for practical jokes in our village and we did all the knock knock, putting potatoes up my Fathers car exhaust,everything. The big difference was that it was FUN. It was playing a prank on some-one,NOT being so selfish that you didn't care about anything or anyone else. It was also never malicious.. Another big difference was If we got caught and we got a bollocking, we stood there and took It and then apologised. Today, we live in a walk on by society because youths today will not stand for having their behavior challenged. I have even heard a Police Officer say that. Practical jokes these days seem to have gone from an act of fun to maliciousness. When you do see bad behaviour in the street, these days, most people are in fear of challenging kids simply because you can get your head kicked in.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

spot;1260808 wrote: Gill, name me a period and a place when you'd not have thought it was such a selfish, thoughtless society that you were living in, without the 'I, me, my' all the bloody time. Or has there never been one?
here you go Spot... another typical yob culture Incident. Was this 'Just a prank'?

Thugs leave burnt girl, two, writhing in agony as they attack ambulance sent to help her | Mail Online

You should try getting out in the real world.
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Post by K.Snyder »

oscar;1261284 wrote: here you go Spot... another typical yob culture Incident. Was this 'Just a prank'?

Thugs leave burnt girl, two, writhing in agony as they attack ambulance sent to help her | Mail Online

You should try getting out in the real world.


Sad

Does this happen often?
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

K.Snyder;1261286 wrote: Sad

Does this happen often? Yes, It does but apparently not in Spot's world. Ambulence crews being attacked or ambushed is a regular occurence in this country.

A few weeks ago, I myself saw a yob throw a missile at a police car as it was arriving on the scene. I have myself seen public refuse to move their cars to get out of the way for police or ambulance. As Gill said, a selfish society we now have. Of course, when these morons need an ambulance or police, it's a different story all together.
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Post by Raven »

spot;1260814 wrote: Go on then, you can play the "name me a period and a place when you'd not have thought it was" game too.
Can I play?

I would say at least in the Victorian era, people were more worried about what other people would think!
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Post by mikeinie »

I think it is down to media and marketing.

“Me” sells

The “I” culture is one that comes out of marketing that promotes the individuals to only think about what is good for them, what they need, and what they want. It sells products, and we are bombarded constantly by the media.

However, as much as we think this is generally true, I know many people, including teenagers and early twenties who are actively involved in their communities, charities and have not bought into to this.

In fact, many of them are angry us for the world that we have created for them.

If we do not agree with the ‘me’ society, then why do we continue to give them everything they ask for?
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Post by K.Snyder »

oscar;1261288 wrote: I have myself seen public refuse to move their cars to get out of the way for police or ambulance.


That's horribly nauseating, actually.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

K.Snyder;1261343 wrote: That's horribly nauseating, actually. The worst I ever witnessed was In the close that is next to my lane. Although the close is a dead end, we have to use It as It's the only access by car to our house. Being a dead end, you can not turn round once in It so many come Into our lane and turn round outside our house but we've stopped them now. At 3pm, masses of parents arrive in 4 X 4's and People Carriers to fetch one small child from the school in the close. For years, these selfish Idiots have parked across people's drive-ways, on the kerbs which force children to step into the road to get round them, and even turn their cars around in folks private drive-ways and paths to turn round to exit. Infact we recently had a meeting with the school and residents over the seriousness of this problem. They do this dispite the council laying on a car park at the top of the school for them.

One afternoon, we came out of our house into the close and It was the usual bedlam of cars on kerbs etc in the close. A very old man who had been sick regually had, had a stroke. Parents cars were parked up on kerbs etc and we could not get through anyway. The ambulance had enough problems getting Into the close anyway due to selfish parents not moving their cars. They finally managed to get through and had to park in the middle of the road because they could not park next to the old mans house due to parents cars. They got the old boy on a stretcher and I have never seen anything as bad as those Paramedics trying to sqeeze that stretcher through parked cars and no-body moved out of the way for them. Even when they finally got the old boy in the ambulance, other parents were trying to sqeeze into the close so the ambulance could not reverse out again. I was so appalled that I got out the car and called them all a bunch of selfish bastards and one woman asked me what my problem was!!!! Perhaps Spot would like to come and witness this one day? By the way... the old boy died later in Hospital.
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Post by spot »

oscar;1260854 wrote: In the bumph I have from the 'Restorative Justice Programme', It states that two thirds of violent crime are carried out by under 18's. You need to get In the real world Spot.




What I've been doing in my fragmentary free moments is looking back to see how people in the past felt, as far as halcyon days goes. It's one thing to give an understanding, it's another to remember why one understands it.

May I deal firstly with "Mods, Rockers, Skinheads, hells Angels etc. Most violence was carried out between equally violent gangs and the football terraces", though? Turn it upside down and pretend for a moment that today's perception were true of then, and "Mods, Rockers, Skinheads, hells Angels etc" were today's reality. Would you not be bemoaning the good old days for different reasons? Howling at the dreadful gang-based hooligans now making England such a dangerous place? The style of antisocial behaviour changes from generation to generation, the criticism from the older generations are constant and unchanging regardless.

The truth is that, however far back I go, the same complaint about youth culture and the same solutions as you're offering here come out time and again.

Here, this is from an 1837 "Third report from the Commissioners on Criminal Law. Juvenile offenders": "Much advantage also might be gained from giving the police a more distinct authority than they now possess, to disperse or apprehend as vagrants, boys wandering in companies in the streets, or loitering around theatres or other places of public amusement, without any ostensible employment". I could quote reams from the reports between then and now, all focused on coercion and disgust at the state of modern youth.

As for the specific period you and Gill isolated as "a period and a place when you'd not have thought it was such a selfish, thoughtless society", Gill's teens through to your 1970s, here's a graph from a 1960 Home Office Report of the Committee on Children and Young Persons, and the commentary:



The story that these figures tell makes it difficult to believe that most of the problems which have arisen since 1938 have been entirely due to the disruptions of the war: for example, to evacuation, air raids, the break up of family life and the absence of the father; and that once the generation affected had grown up things would improve again. It is true that the generation with the largest rise is still the one likely to have been most affected by the war, but the war alone can hardly account for the sudden large rise at the older age, nor for that in the fourteen to seventeen age group. Fifteen years after the end of the war, far from improving, the situation is more serious than it has ever been. In view of this it is not possible any longer to feel sure that in spite of the temporary set back of the war years our methods of dealing with the problems of children in trouble (whether actually delinquent or not) are generally sound and sufficient and are necessarily developing along the right lines. We have therefore felt it necessary to reconsider our approach to the whole question.

[...] Parents vary in their capacity to live up to this ideal and children also vary in the degree to which they are a problem to their parents. Some families suffer misfortune, or are the victims of difficult circumstances, others are just inadequate. Whatever the cause there are children who seem incapable of behaving properly or of conforming to recognised standards of behaviour, and some parents who appear to give up the difficult task of controlling them. Few parents are wholly selfish and unconcerned, though some adopt a "couldn't care less" attitude in self defence. It is the duty of the community to provide through its social and welfare services the advice and support which such parents and children need ; to build up their capacity for responsibility, and to enable them to fulfil their proper role.What changes, from decade to decade, is who constitutes the Alf Garnetts of the day. They're always there. These days they even have the Internet to moan on.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

spot;1261455 wrote:

What changes, from decade to decade, is who constitutes the Alf Garnetts of the day. They're always there. These days they even have the Internet to moan on.
And that is the exact assinine comment that deters my even attempting to Indulge in Intelligent debate with you.

I'd get a more Positive response from my Goldfish who appears to have a 30 second attention span.
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Post by spot »

oscar;1261457 wrote: And that is the exact assinine comment that deters my even attempting to Indulge in Intelligent debate with you.

I'd get a more Positive response from my Goldfish who appears to have a 30 second attention span.


Would you like me to post some Alf Garnett clips to make my point even more explicitly? I speak as I find.

Here, this is an alternative as a compromise - read from "Each adult generation" down to Box 2.2 at Criminology: a sociological introduction - Google Books
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

spot;1261458 wrote: Would you like me to post some Alf Garnett clips to make my point even more explicitly? I speak as I find.

Here, this is an alternative as a compromise - read from "Each adult generation" down to Box 2.2 at Criminology: a sociological introduction - Google Books
Your over anaylising the thread. Gill and I have posted that our own experiences in today seem to show that the public are more selfish and Inconsiderate to other people that say, pre 1970's. I do not equate that with a Garnett rant who by the way, I am a great fan of.

If you would like to start a new thread comparing violent crime stats pre 1970 to present day, I would be Interested however, here we are talking about the decline in morals, manners and consideration for other people.
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Post by Betty Boop »

oscar;1261466 wrote: Your over anaylising the thread. Gill and I have posted that our own experiences in today seem to show that the public are more selfish and Inconsiderate to other people that say, pre 1970's. I do not equate that with a Garnett rant who by the way, I am a great fan of.

If you would like to start a new thread comparing violent crime stats pre 1970 to present day, I would be Interested however, here we are talking about the decline in morals, manners and consideration for other people.


The decline of those have been talked about for years too, that's our whole point Oscar. Each generation believes they are living through the worst times, if you take a look back in history you will see that that whole opinion has been held for a very very long time.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Betty Boop;1261467 wrote: The decline of those have been talked about for years too, that's our whole point Oscar. Each generation believes they are living through the worst times, if you take a look back in history you will see that that whole opinion has been held for a very very long time.
You say that the decline has been talked about for years so from your writing, you are saying that It has declined and not risen over the years... there-fore, we must be at the Zenith of that decline right now. Do you have any links or stats to prove that moral decline has risen since pre 1970 ? Or Is it just yours and Spots say so?
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Post by spot »

oscar;1261466 wrote: Your over anaylising the thread. Gill and I have posted that our own experiences in today seem to show that the public are more selfish and Inconsiderate to other people that say, pre 1970's.Which is what my link discussed. Perhaps you didn't click it?

Pearson argued that all these [panics] were linked by a recurring and familiar sets of 'respectable fears' - unruly behaviour in public space, lack of respect for traditional values, unwillingness to 'settle down'. Each adult generation experienced these as 'new' and each believed that young people's behaviour was 'worse' than it had been when they were young themselves. He explained this in terms of ongoing inter-generational tensions and the life course. The ageing process means that adults always experience the social worlds of the young as unfamiliar and as posing a threat to 'established' ways of doing things, whatever these might be. This process has been exaggerated in modern times because of the faster pace of socio-economic and technological change.
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Post by spot »

oscar;1261470 wrote: Do you have any links or stats to prove that moral decline has risen since pre 1970 ? Or Is it just yours and Spots say so?
I'm sat here wondering what one might measure in order to chart moral decline. Have you any suggestions?
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

spot;1261474 wrote: I'm sat here wondering what one might measure in order to chart moral decline. Have you any suggestions?
That's my exact point... It is inmeasurable leading BB's post to be unprovable.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

spot;1261473 wrote: Which is what my link discussed. Perhaps you didn't click it?

Pearson argued that all these [panics] were linked by a recurring and familiar sets of 'respectable fears' - unruly behaviour in public space, lack of respect for traditional values, unwillingness to 'settle down'. Each adult generation experienced these as 'new' and each believed that young people's behaviour was 'worse' than it had been when they were young themselves. He explained this in terms of ongoing inter-generational tensions and the life course. The ageing process means that adults always experience the social worlds of the young as unfamiliar and as posing a threat to 'established' ways of doing things, whatever these might be. This process has been exaggerated in modern times because of the faster pace of socio-economic and technological change.
I take your point of article then Spot, however, one must also also take into the equation the type of Inconsideration exhibited in these times. i.e. Ambushing Ambulances and hindering their journey.
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Post by spot »

oscar;1261476 wrote: I take your point of article then Spot, however, one must also also take into the equation the type of Inconsideration exhibited in these times. i.e. Ambushing Ambulances and hindering their journey.


Name me a year in the last sixty years and I'll find you another appalling instance. There's a world of difference between instances and trends.

The "ongoing inter-generational tensions and the life course" bit entirely accounts for the point of view of you and Gill, nothing else is needed.
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Post by K.Snyder »

I couldn't help but feel inclined to ask what those of you from the UK feel about this article relative to my concern of anything moral. From my interpretation it seems in the UK, over the past 80 or so years, the trend for moral values seems to rise and fall a bit.

I will say regarding this post from spot that I think it would be appropriate to see the laws that have changed in relation to these figures considering some(or more) laws may not still exist today as well as some(or more) laws may have been added giving the relation of those figures a misleading impression.

Here is the article(I've taken the innitiative in posting it here as the ads in it are rather annoying).



by Rachelle de Bretagne

Social changes and Urban growth in the UK

Although it would be possible to trace back hundreds of years, the changes that have taken place within my own lifetime in urban growth and social changes are such that they merit explanation in their own article since over the past fifty years of UK history, the social patterns changes affect the lifestyle of all of those living within its shores.

After World War 2, people began to rebuild their lives, and large families were a normal aspect of life in the UK. Due to the structure of class within the United Kingdom, many rural areas were off limits for working class families without the transport that took them into areas where work existed in order to sustain their families. The housing in towns was mostly in terraces, and here the lower and middle classes lived side by side, whilst those without ressources depended upon public housing schemes call council houses.

Little by little because of the demand created for housing by having such large families, developers started to build into the suburbs of huge cities where people could live and which were within commuting distance of the cities themselves. Those that could afford to buy houses did, though the stigma of council owned housing was not a huge one like it was to become, as people had not yet been educated in the value of home ownership. What mattered in that society after the war was the importance of the family unit, more than what the family unit possessed.

With wages and cost of living escalating, more people owned cars and the commute from the rural areas around the major cities became easy. Society circled around the importance of marriage, the stability of family values, and certainly the aspects of human behavior that were frowned upon were those of infidelity, pregnancy outside marriage, and any moral decisions that went against the grain.

In the early 60s, government changes set different priorities for working people within the cities, encouraging Unions to form, and for people to demand what they thought was rightfully their entitlement out of life. The new generation of young people were breaking away from tradition, having seen the aspects of it that they disliked. Even the image of marriage til death do us part was a frightening one for young people who wanted to escape the framework that seemingly trapped their parents.

The seventies saw the increase in television coverage of the benefits of ownership, not just of housing but of all the trappings that went with it. It was no longer necessary for women to play the same roles as they had done before. Quicker food was introduced, machines that gave them free time, although the cost of these luxury goods meant that their earnings would need to sustain the lifestyle chosen.

Maggie Thatcher's government praised the idea of home ownership, and encouraged it to the extent of offering council house tenants the right to buy their homes at advantageous prices. Bricks and mortar were the in investment, to such an extent that all and sundry tried to get in on the act, and that those that could not afford to do so were considered failures. Instead of women taking the traditional roles of mothers staying at home, the workforce increased to include them as an essential part of productivity, and what people found was that in order to keep their homes, both parties to a marriage had to work, losing time as a married couple and changing the priorities from family values to seeking out payment to support a new found lifestyle.

What no one anticipated with urban development was that at some time, the housing market would topple. The tradition of buying homes at the top end of what you could afford, and the development of new housing tempting first time buyers, didn't allow for inflation. What happened was that society learned a lesson the hard way, and that in their greed to become part of what was socially acceptable, many invested in houses that dropped in value, and that even if they sold them, they would not gain sufficient funds to pay off the debts incurred.

In the process of all the changes, family values dropped by the wayside. The divorce rate soared because people weren't prepared to follow the route their parents took, demanding that if marriage didn't work out, there was always an alternative that never existed in normal society before. Divorce options were costly, though people would take legal aid to get those divorces, and the family unit over the next twenty years deteriorated to such an extent that in school classrooms, in a class of 30 children, over half were from mixed marriages.

Urban development didn't stop there and is again spiraling. Society has turned to consumerism as a compensation for what is missing within their lives. Ownership of things is paramount. Children demand the latest of equipment and sports gear, and parents bend over backwards to make sure that their children can have what they want. Things matter more than people, to the extent that people steal in order to get those cherished items that make them look good, although not seeing past the superficial nature of their purchases, and looking back at real values.

Over the last ten years, with the rise and fall of house prices, and the number of repossessions within cities, a new race has begun of the home developer. These are not all professionals, but people drawn into making quick money from property. Repossession housing sells cheaper than the market value because mortgage companies want their money quickly, and what is happening now in the United Kingdom is that urban development has taken a strange twist, and people are making livings from buying old and neglected property, turning it into rental or salable commodities, and making money from the misfortunes of others.

Society sadly has lost itself in a consumerism that goes hand in hand with urban development, human greed and the balance to the family has diminished to such an extent that one can only hope that the youth of today can recognize the mistakes of their parents, although many have left the UK for places in the world where the values of morality and family, time and space to live are more prevalent, where violence is less, and where human development is permitted to grow in a more creative backdrop than the urban jungle that the UK offers.

Sometimes the balance seems so far out of reach, and I can only pray that the next generation learn from the mistakes made.
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Post by Raven »

spot;1261474 wrote: I'm sat here wondering what one might measure in order to chart moral decline. Have you any suggestions?
The decay of the Church. If you compare the decline of Rome to current trends, then you will find some similarities. Perhaps we are just in a natural cycle of developement.
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Post by spot »

Raven;1261535 wrote: The decay of the Church. If you compare the decline of Rome to current trends, then you will find some similarities. Perhaps we are just in a natural cycle of developement.


That rather implies that atheists and agnostics are amoral, and that believers are moral. Neither suggestion stands scrutiny.
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Post by buttercup »

Go find somewhere nicer to live, try this site

House Prices, Property, Crime - Local Neighbourhood | UpMyStreet
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Post by spot »

buttercup;1261605 wrote: Go find somewhere nicer to live, try this siteMoving would change the niceness of the areas, surely.
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Post by Tombstone »

May I suggest that your perception of society is very much associated with where you live?

We (my family, friends, and I) live in a very friendly, caring, and helpful place. Would I feel the same if I lived in Detroit? Probably not.
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Post by farmer giles »

i think things are getting better :thinking:

most right minded normal people are not racist,age-st baldest,tall-ist or small ist

we care about saving the planet .old people ,people dying in other countries and so much more :-6:-6

go back a few decades slavery was the norm ,highwaymen lurked at every highway etc:thinking::thinking:
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Tombstone;1261609 wrote: May I suggest that your perception of society is very much associated with where you live?

We (my family, friends, and I) live in a very friendly, caring, and helpful place. Would I feel the same if I lived in Detroit? Probably not.
I agree totally there TS. I was raised in a very rural area in the Sussex Downs where all around the village was fields and farms. When I 'go home' and spend time with my family who still live there, the selfishness I see is dramatically reduced due to population. There is a real sense of community there and general caring.

Here, where I live now, we have had 4,000 homes built on Greenbelt (Countryside) in the past ten years. Over the past two years, another 1,000 have gone up and more are planned. These are family homes being built but no extra facilities such as Doctors surgeries and activities for the young are being Included. This has resulted in a massive problem of large groups of bored youngsters roaming the streets bored at night with no-where to go. It is a tiny village so to have that kind of increased population in such a few short years, is bound to cause problems. People become more selfish, demanding and Uncaring.
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oscar;1261637 wrote: I agree totally there TS. I was raised in a very rural area in the Sussex Downs where all around the village was fields and farms. When I 'go home' and spend time with my family who still live there, the selfishness I see is dramatically reduced due to population. There is a real sense of community there and general caring.

Here, where I live now, we have had 4,000 homes built on Greenbelt (Countryside) in the past ten years. Over the past two years, another 1,000 have gone up and more are planned. These are family homes being built but no extra facilities such as Doctors surgeries and activities for the young are being Included. This has resulted in a massive problem of large groups of bored youngsters roaming the streets bored at night with no-where to go. It is a tiny village so to have that kind of increased population in such a few short years, is bound to cause problems. People become more selfish, demanding and Uncaring.


I can definitely see that. Why aren't the kids involved in sports or hobbies? After school activities? (Maybe it's a cultural thing?)
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Tombstone;1261652 wrote: I can definitely see that. Why aren't the kids involved in sports or hobbies? After school activities? (Maybe it's a cultural thing?)
I am actively Involved with the area and my experience shows that there are sport facilities in the area for them, however, not every kid is into sport. There seems very little else around for them other than sport related. It seems we cater for the sporty minded kid but not too much for kids who have no Inerest. When we talk to these kids, the one thing they all say is 'We just want some-where to go'. Then you are relying on local councils to make descisions into funding. I really do believe that the Government needs to generousley reward the Companies and Business's who take on kids for work related apprenticeships and schemes to give them back a sense of direction.
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oscar;1261654 wrote: I am actively Involved with the area and my experience shows that there are sport facilities in the area for them, however, not every kid is into sport. There seems very little else around for them other than sport related. It seems we cater for the sporty minded kid but not too much for kids who have no Inerest. When we talk to these kids, the one thing they all say is 'We just want some-where to go'. Then you are relying on local councils to make descisions into funding. I really do believe that the Government needs to generousley reward the Companies and Business's who take on kids for work related apprenticeships and schemes to give them back a sense of direction.


OK. That makes sense.

Of course, I'm a big believer that it's Mom and Dad who are ultimately responsible for their kids. (shudder! :wah: ) My kids and their friends don't roam because:

1. They aren't allowed to. 2. They have homework. 3. They have house chores. 4. They have part-time jobs. 5. They don't have time to be "bored."

Addendum: Does this always keep them out of trouble? Heck no! :-)
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Post by spot »

oscar;1261637 wrote: Here, where I live now, we have had 4,000 homes built on Greenbelt (Countryside) in the past ten years. Over the past two years, another 1,000 have gone up and more are planned. These are family homes being built but no extra facilities such as Doctors surgeries and activities for the young are being Included. This has resulted in a massive problem of large groups of bored youngsters roaming the streets bored at night with no-where to go. It is a tiny village so to have that kind of increased population in such a few short years, is bound to cause problems. People become more selfish, demanding and Uncaring.


What puzzles me is that you and Gill seem determined to lay the blame for this at the foot of the children, as though children as a whole change from one generation to another. What changes is society. The extent to which politicians influence that change is, I'd have thought, rather limited. They're the other group you enjoy hammering. I don't think it's a reasonable way to approach the issue.

This is another quote from the 1959 report, I add it to the thread because I think it could as well be written today as in the fifties:It is important to remember that only a very small proportion, probably less than two per cent, of the children at risk have to be dealt with by the court as offenders in any one year. No complete explanation can be given why this two per cent get into trouble while the remaining ninety-eight per cent do not, but it seems a reasonable possibility that one of the factors leading to the failure of this two per cent has been the lack of a satisfactory family life.

It is true that the rise in the incidence of delinquency and crime is greatest in the older age groups, in the fourteen to seventeen and seventeen to twenty-one groups respectively, and that young people, as they grow older, become progressively less affected by the family and more by other environmental and cultural influences. It can be argued that these wider influences must be at least as important and therefore that they must be largely to blame for the increase in crime. This may well be so. Very little is known about what causes a rise in crime. It is not our business to enquire into causes, but there are clearly many possibilities.

During the past fifty years there has been a tremendous material, social and moral revolution in addition to the upheaval of two wars. While life has in many ways become easier and more secure, the whole future of mankind may seem frighteningly uncertain. Everyday life may be less of a struggle, boredom and lack of challenge more of a danger, but the fundamental insecurity remains with little the individual can do about it. The material revolution is plain to see. At one and the same time it has provided more desirable objects, greater opportunities for acquiring them illegally, and considerable chances of immunity from the undesirable consequences of so doing.

It is not always so clearly recognised what a complete change there has been in social and personal relationships (between classes, between the sexes and between individuals) and also in the basic assumptions which regulate behaviour. These major changes in the cultural background may well have replaced the disturbances of war as factors which contribute in themselves to instability within the family. In such a climate it is no wonder that many young people are bewildered or that some parents become uncertain what standards they should insist on or what ideals they should put before their children. It is more a matter for surprise that so few young people get into real trouble and that there are, on the whole, so few families which break down or otherwise fail their children. It seems probable, however, that those families which have themselves failed to achieve a stable and satisfactory family life will be the most vulnerable, and that the children brought up in them will be these most likely to succumb to whatever adverse influences there may be in the outside world.

If this be accepted, it becomes the duty of the State to discover such families and to help them in every possible way. This is not to deny that the primary responsibility for their children belongs to the parents. It is rather to emphasise the importance of the family in the best upbringing of the child. The mainspring for providing the proper care of children must come from the desire of 'parents to bring up their children well and there can never be a complete substitute for the good parent. The State is right to insist on this responsibility and in doing so it may well have to lay down certain legal obligations, but the State's principal duty is to assist the family in carrying out its proper functions. This should be done in the first instance by the provision of facilities such as housing, health services and education. Some families will need greater and more specialised help through the welfare services, but such help should always be directed towards building up the responsibility of the parents whenever this is at all possible.

We do not suggest that an element of compulsion can or should be eliminated. There are circumstances in which legal proceedings should be taken against parents, and however successful preventive methods may become, there will continue to be children who should come before juvenile courts. Nor do we suggest that court proceedings should never be taken until everything else has failed, for there are cases where such proceedings are taken too late.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

[QUOTE=spot;1261727]What puzzles me is that you and Gill seem determined to lay the blame for this at the foot of the children,

Then you are puzzling in the wrong Direction and you are making Inaccurate assumptions about Gill and Myself.

Gill's opening Post was the selfishness of society in General. I do not believe that she or I have directed the thread at the blame of children. Infact my posts have blamed Parents, mass building, over population small area's, lack of facilities for youths and the supply of only sports facilities available.

You seem to try to give some mis-Imformed Idea that Gill and I blame children for everything and you are way off mark. I suggest for one, you begin to read posts accurately instead of the selective perusal of your choice.

Society and Government is to blame for the drop in standards. I heard one Politician refer to our country very recently as 'Bog Standard Britain' which just about sums us up. We have produced a middle generation who have no parenting skills whatsoever and those who do are considered Old Fashioned. You may be happy with Bog Standard Britain but luckilly there are people like Gill and myself whop still aspire for a little more respect and decency.

For example... a youth involved with police turns out that his parents were currently being Investigated by police for Intimidation and threatening behaviour to their tenant. How on earth is the youth supposed to know right from wrong when we have that dragging them up?
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