The Future Of Video Games And The Mentally Unstable

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:36 am

This is going to be a touchy subject for many, and for that I have no doubt. But speaking from a purely scientific perspective, could video games one day reach the point where graphics, sounds, and all other aspects of the game could actually be therapeutic for the mentally unstable?

Now I don't pretend to understand what motivates a murderer to murder somebody, or a child molester to molest a child, but one thing I do understand is that the people who commit such horrendous acts are at least in my opinion mentally unstable. And unable to function at least temporarily on the same level that a so called "normal" individual is able to function on.

So what I am curious about is this. What if video games reach the point where one day they are so well designed that the line between reality and playing the game almost becomes totally undistinguishable. In this circumstance, would someone who is itching to commit a murder be able to obtain the same mental stimulation from killing somebody in a video game as they would be able to obtain from doing it in real Life? And likewise would a child molester who is able to molest a child in a video game receive the same mental stimulation from doing it in the game as opposed to real Life (when video games become so real that the mind considers it to be a reality)?

I mean it is something that we should actually consider. One thing that I have learned in Life is that there are some people who's brains just don't seem to operate in the same manner as the majority of Human Beings. For these people, what kind of therapeutic benefits could they receive from getting their crimes out of their system by committing them in a video game that has been so amazingly crafted as to make it as real as eyes are capable of perceiving, ears are capable of hearing, the brain is capable of understanding, and maybe even someday to the point where smells can actually be generated from the video game system/machine that are identical in every way to what the Human nose would smell in a real life setting?

I mean I don't condone such behavior ever, in real Life. But what we already do in video games today (and don't lie for those who find enjoyment in it), would disgust most any "normal" Human being if we were doing them in real Life. So, with that said, I mean what would you rather have happen? Would you rather have someone kill someone in real Life because it was the only way their unstable minds were able to obtain a satisfactional feeling of stimulation, or would you rather have that person completely get it out of their system by murdering someone in a video game that is so advanced that it is capable of stimulating all of the Human senses for that particular individual? The same goes for child molestation. I would never want to see a child be molested in real Life, or even personally see it in a video game, but if I had to choose between the two, I would much rather have someone molest a child in a very technologically advanced video game setting than to ever do something like that to an actual Human Being in real Life. As long as they were able to maintain the same mental stimulation from doing it in the video game and as long as it was clinically proven to help prevent that person from committing those acts for real.

Your thoughts on the subject?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:01 am

You are of course assuming that these people will be identified beforehand and thats the sticky part of the deal. Or maybe you're referring to those already incarcerated for murder or rape?

Rapunzel · Post by **Rapunzel** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:01 am

I see what you're thinking and if I wrote all the things I really thought I could write reams to you on this subject!

However, what you're basically saying is could a video game replace a need in an unstable persons mind. My answer would be no. For two reasons.

Firstly, I think people who have those needs need to be up close to their victims. I think they need to smell their sweat, smell their fear, see the terror in their eyes, feel them squirming or hear them shrieking as they try to get away and know that they have the physical power to hurt their victim in any perverse way they desire. I think the sense of power that must infuse them, from their victims terror, is waaay more than anything they could gain from holding a computer paddle or handset or whatever those things are called.

Secondly, whilst I think most young people (ie 18+) who play war games where you kill the zombies or the bad guys, etc, are perfectly well aware of the difference between killing on a screen and killing in real life, I think that line can blur for younger children or for those whose minds are mentally unstable. In a person with an unstable mind I can only imagine that you would whet his appetite for something more satisfying and more real than anything he is getting from a computer screen.

Thats my opinion anyway.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:14 am

Rapunzel;1267044 wrote: I think people who have those needs need to be up close to their victims. I think they need to smell their sweat, smell their fear, see the terror in their eyes, feel them squirming or hear them shrieking as they try to get away and know that they have the physical power to hurt their victim in any perverse way they desire.

Yes but wouldn't you agree that for at least most if the things you listed, the terror in their eyes, the smell of their sweat, the sense of that person's fear, and even maybe one day the feeling of a squirming body (possibly with some kind of mechanical device that feels like a Human being actually squirming, even going as far as feeling like Human skin to the touch - while the person would have some kind of visual device that would make the object they are feeling actually look like a person moving in the game they are playing, and have it - the device move almost identically to what the person is seeing - although it would be limited to some movements of course - possibly to only slightly shaking or squirming or whatever) but that all of these things would still be possible with a highly advanced video game system in the future?

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:18 am

Robert J;1267043 wrote: You are of course assuming that these people will be identified beforehand and thats the sticky part of the deal. Or maybe you're referring to those already incarcerated for murder or rape?

Well that could be solved in some ways, but some of them are ways that might not bode well for most people.

1. The games and the system with it's accessories could be sold on the open market. Which would disgust most people who were selling them to the buyer.

2. The system and games could be obtained only through a medical professional (possibly a psychologist in this case), and the system as well, where it was strictly confidential and between the medical team and the person who was buying it, and that the person would have to first obviously come forward with a request to obtain it, but would only be given the machine after having first talked with the medical professional.

3. It could be something that would only be given to those who have already been caught for such acts, and that with regular use might indeed reduce their chances of repeating their crimes once they are released from jail or prison.

In all 3 circumstances though, could it be possible to actually have a positive influence for those individuals? And not a negative one? And a positive effect for society as a whole?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:44 am

"............................but one thing I do understand is that the people who commit such horrendous acts are at least in my opinion mentally unstable. And unable to function at least temporarily on the same level that a so called "normal" individual is able to function on."

Many such people are indistinguishable from you and me.

Many are so 'normal' that when they are discovered family and friends are amazed and disbelieve they could be guilty of such acts.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:47 am

Well here's my take on all this. I'll sum it up as quickly as possible.

If this ever does come to fruition, here's how I see it happening.

The video game systems themselves would be too expensive to reproduce in mass quantities. Same with the systems accessories. Therefore I see the only possible outcome being that the systems themselves would remain in the posession of the medical establishment that uses them to treat these patients. I see there being a room that someone would go into, in complete privacy, and put these machines to use. I see there being two devices that the person would use to fulfill their sense of feeling. I see there being a lifesize replica of a Human Child's body, and a life size replica of an adult Human Beings body, and I see them both able to be utilized by the person using the system.

Now I already mentioned that not only would the devices/accessories that would be used for feeling be able to move/shake/squirm like a real Human body could, but that the devices for hearing the sounds of real Human voices would also be utilized through a listening device, and the visual stimulation of a real looking person moving would be utilized through a visual device.

I think it is quite possible to install some kind of synthetic sexual organs onto the feeling devices as well (you might think that's sick, funny, whatever, but the fact is that synthetic vaginas and penises are being created everyday, and sold on the open market in the form of vibrators, etc.), and so therefore it would not be very hard to incorporate actual mechanical/synthetic organs onto the devices themselves so that the person could actually use them to stimulate their sexual desires as well.

And the person would go into that room and make use of the machines for whatever time was necessary until they came out of that room feeling completely relieved of their urges. And the process would be complete. And no person in real Life would ever have to be harmed from such a process. And I think it is not only likely that something like this will one day indeed come into fruition, but that it could turn out to be one of if not the best solutions for the therapy of these types of individuals.

PS - As far as the murdering process with the systems/accessories, I see there being synthetic weapons being used, such as possibly those fake knives that have the blades that contract in on themselves after having hit an object, and that those types of devices would be used to committ the actual murder so as to not damage the systems/accessories themselves during the process of committing the act. And in this case also no harm would ever come to an actual Human Being.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:58 am

Well, if they ever develop gaming to the point of something like the Holodeck, a la Star Trek, they could get really close.

I would vote for the algorithm that is supposed to prevent injury to the participants be disabled on such scenarios, though, so the real risk of getting caught, and all that entails, can be in play.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:03 am

TruthBringer;1267059 wrote: Well here's my take on all this. I'll sum it up as quickly as possible.

If this ever does come to fruition, here's how I see it happening.

The video game systems themselves would be too expensive to reproduce in mass quantities. Same with the systems accessories. Therefore I see the only possible outcome being that the systems themselves would remain in the posession of the medical establishment that uses them to treat these patients. I see there being a room that someone would go into, in complete privacy, and put these machines to use. I see there being two devices that the person would use to fulfill their sense of feeling. I see there being a lifesize replica of a Human Child's body, and a life size replica of an adult Human Beings body, and I see them both able to be utilized by the person using the system.

Now I already mentioned that not only would the devices/accessories that would be used for feeling be able to move/shake/squirm like a real Human body could, but that the devices for hearing the sounds of real Human voices would also be utilized through a listening device, and the visual stimulation of a real looking person moving would be utilized through a visual device.

I think it is quite possible to install some kind of synthetic sexual organs onto the feeling devices as well (you might think that's sick, funny, whatever, but the fact is that synthetic vaginas and penises are being created everyday, and sold on the open market in the form of vibrators, etc.), and so therefore it would not be very hard to incorporate actual mechanical/synthetic organs onto the devices themselves so that the person could actually use them to stimulate their sexual desires as well.

And the person would go into that room and make use of the machines for whatever time was necessary until they came out of that room feeling completely relieved of their urges. And the process would be complete. And no person in real Life would ever have to be harmed from such a process. And I think it is not only likely that something like this will one day indeed come into fruition, but that it could turn out to be one of if not the best solutions for the therapy of these types of individuals.

PS - As far as the murdering process with the systems/accessories, I see there being synthetic weapons being used, such as possibly those fake knives that have the blades that contract in on themselves after having hit an object, and that those types of devices would be used to committ the actual murder so as to not damage the systems/accessories themselves during the process of committing the act. And in this case also no harm would ever come to an actual Human Being.

I don't quite get how giving them their need and fulfilling their desire is a form of therapy. The funny thing about desire is once it's fulfilled you want more of it, so say child molester no 1 runs out of his allotted time for this week he grabs a child and does it for real, when found out he then says, but my psychologist lets me do it every week at his place what's the difference.

Of course you also have to bear in mind that the common thing with humans is once one desire is fulfilled they move on to even bigger and possibly even more sickening desires.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:27 am

For arguments sake, even if they could simulate an extravagant game to satisfy blood lust wouldn't that make murder the ultimate lurking challenge further enticing the thrill or desire, or even spark an interest where one didn't seriously exist before?

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:31 am

I should also add that the person would be able to use their bare hands on the synthetic body devices to strangle them to death and beat them to death (virtually dying of course), and would actually exert their own physical energy in the process.

Kind of like working out I guess if you would want to compare it to that. A person who enjoys working out only releases the desire to work out after having actually completed the process. Afterwards they feel tired and relieved of their desire.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:32 am

The synthetic sexual organs/devices would have to be switched out regularly and would obviously have to be disposable. Of course the cheapest and most effective method would be chosen for doing this.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:34 am

The fact is that most people never have to deal with these types of individuals either ever in their lifetime or on a regular basis. But such is not the case with actual psychologists. There are many psychologists who do see these types of people on a daily basis, and who are always looking for new ways to treat them. I personally believe that a psychologist who treats these types of patients would be very open to new and more efficient ways of doing so, and that many of them given the capability to introduce these systems/devices with their various programs (rape programs - murder programs - etc.) to their subjects would be more than happy to give them a try if they thought it might actually produce positive results.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:38 am

Betty Boop;1267064 wrote: I don't quite get how giving them their need and fulfilling their desire is a form of therapy. The funny thing about desire is once it's fulfilled you want more of it, so say child molester no 1 runs out of his allotted time for this week he grabs a child and does it for real, when found out he then says, but my psychologist lets me do it every week at his place what's the difference.

Of course you also have to bear in mind that the common thing with humans is once one desire is fulfilled they move on to even bigger and possibly even more sickening desires.

I don't advocate changing any of the molestation or murder laws that are currently in place, in fact I am in favor of creating even harsher punishments for such actions than do already exist.

But I see nothing wrong with introducing new ways to treat these people's mental illness/instabilities.

Changing none of the laws and only tightening them means that not only would the punishments still be in effect for individuals who dare to take a chance of doing these things in Real Life, but that there would be no difference in the way we deal with these people committing acts now in Real Life (other than the harsher punishments) vs the way we would deal with them committing the acts at that time in Real Life.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:00 am

TruthBringer;1267072 wrote: I don't advocate changing any of the molestation or murder laws that are currently in place, in fact I am in favor of creating even harsher punishments for such actions than do already exist.

But I see nothing wrong with introducing new ways to treat these people's mental illness/instabilities.

Changing none of the laws and only tightening them means that not only would the punishments still be in effect for individuals who dare to take a chance of doing these things in Real Life, but that there would be no difference in the way we deal with these people committing acts now in Real Life (other than the harsher punishments) vs the way we would deal with them committing the acts at that time in Real Life.

How does 'feeding' these peoples desires act as therapy, you believe they will be spent and therefore not commit these crimes for real?

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:02 am

The only arguement I see being raised by certain people would be the decade old arguement of "Whats the difference of teaching people it's ok to kill in a video game vs teaching them it's ok to kill in real Life?"

But I totally disagree with that statement. To use that arguement is to pretend that we Humans are not smart enough to figure out the difference. And if we were capable of creating the video games we have today with the full knowledge that they are not reality, then what would be the difference in this case?

In video games today, you can beat people to a bloody pulp, shoot them, massacre them, cut them, slice them, have sex with them (GTA), run them over, call them names, and just about whatever you can think of.

The majority of people are ok with the fact that a video game is not real Life, and that it isn't equal to real Life, so they are fine with the fact that even little kids do these things in games today. Only a small minority of people think that video games should be eliminated all-together.

So....the situation would be the same. Only enhanced by increased technology.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:04 am

Betty Boop;1267078 wrote: How does 'feeding' these peoples desires act as therapy, you believe they will be spent and therefore not commit these crimes for real?

I believe that the desires will re-emerge from time to time such as happens with a person who smokes, a person who likes to exercise, a person who likes to gamble, etc.

And when the desire re-emerges I believe there MUST be a release in some way shape or form that goes along with that specific desire in order to gratify that particular need that arises for each individual.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:09 am

TruthBringer;1267080 wrote: I believe that the desires will re-emerge from time to time such as happens with a person who smokes, a person who likes to exercise, a person who likes to gamble, etc.

And when the desire re-emerges I believe there MUST be a release in some way shape or form that goes along with that specific desire in order to gratify that particular need that arises for each individual.

However, the good news is, that in the case of murdering somebody, or raping them, etc., I don't think a person with that desire would need to fulfill it quite as much or as often as someone who feels the need to smoke a cigarette, or work out, etc.

I mean even the worst of the worst when it comes to serial killers and rapists and other people with those desires have only killed every so often as opposed to every day, every 10 minutes, etc.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:12 am

TruthBringer;1267080 wrote: I believe that the desires will re-emerge from time to time such as happens with a person who smokes, a person who likes to exercise, a person who likes to gamble, etc.

Right, and then, as with sexual desire, once one desire is fulfilled there becomes a need for another desire, generally a step worse than the previous desire, what then?

Do you not hold at all that all these war game video games are actually making us more violent, again a child spends six hours a day killing all on a video game, one day he gets his hands on a real gun and shoots 20 people for the thrill of it. When arrested he then says but I do it all day at home why can I not do it now?

It's all very well stating that we know the difference between a video game and reality but how do you know for sure that the mentally unstable do and whilst we are here, maybe you should define 'mentally unstable' :rolleyes:

Jazzy · Post by **Jazzy** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:34 am

Do you think such games would have ended in a different result for all of these people?

Criminal Psychology from the Crime Library

My answer would have to be no. I think once they have this "desire" no game in the world is going to stop them. If anything, I see these games you mention as stimulating them. You also have to understand that what they do is not a "game" it's the real deal and that's how they aquire their morbid satisfaction.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:36 am

Betty Boop;1267084 wrote: Right, and then, as with sexual desire, once one desire is fulfilled there becomes a need for another desire, generally a step worse than the previous desire, what then?

Do you not hold at all that all these war game video games are actually making us more violent, again a child spends six hours a day killing all on a video game, one day he gets his hands on a real gun and shoots 20 people for the thrill of it. When arrested he then says but I do it all day at home why can I not do it now?

It's all very well stating that we know the difference between a video game and reality but how do you know for sure that the mentally unstable do and whilst we are here, maybe you should define 'mentally unstable' :rolleyes:

I'm not sure I understand the first part of what you stated. One desire leads to another desire? I'm not sure that can be scientifcally proven. It may lead to more of the same desire...that may be true..but I fail to see how it directly leads to another one.

The second part of what you said about video games making us more violent today than perhaps ever before, I disagree with. If you have ever visited a real life dungeon from the medieval ages, kept in tact with all of the torturing devices, etc., than you may form another opinion on the matter. If you think talking about some of the things in this thread makes you uncomfortable, you don't even want to discuss some of the tools that came directly out of that era.

The mentally unstable part is just my term for the way I view these types of people who like to murder in real Life, rape in real Life, and molest in real Life, etc. I am no doctor and I don't pretend to be one, so I could never formally diagnose someone as being mentally unstable. But in my opinion, that's exactly what these people are. I suppose I could be a little more positive and say that they are "different", but I guess it's in the eye of the beholder.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:03 pm

I don't know I just don't see how telling someone to "stop having the urge to rape a little girl" would ever work for someone who for whatever reason gets those urges from time to time even if they don't necessarily want to.

I don't think it's quite so easy. Quite so cut and dry. I mean it's a whole different arena but I am someone who is currently addicted to smoking cigarettes. I plan to one day stop smoking, but I know if someone just came up to me and told me to "stop smoking cigarettes immediately", I would look at them like they were crazy. And I would probably go and smoke one just to relax and think about what they had just told me. lol.

I think, I mean I definately feel for people who have these kinds of urges. I don't, and am very grateful for that, but I can't help but share sympathy with people who get urges to do anything and who know in their hearts that those urges just might never go away. No matter how much they might wish they did.

So for me, at least for the moment, I smoke. And it does quench my urge. And I know if I was a Native American in the old days that I would most certainly be one of those people in the teepee chiefing on a pipe. lol. And that's just me. Maybe for someone who gets those kind of urges to harm another person from time to time, or to molest someone from time to time, I hate to say it but, maybe that's just them. And maybe they just need some kind of an outlet where they can satisfy their urges at the expense of no one else. I mean to me that's just something I can totally understand. And who am I to say that they shouldn't be able to do that?

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:22 pm

TruthBringer;1267183 wrote: I don't know I just don't see how telling someone to "stop having the urge to rape a little girl" would ever work for someone who for whatever reason gets those urges from time to time even if they don't necessarily want to.

I don't think it's quite so easy. Quite so cut and dry. I mean it's a whole different arena but I am someone who is currently addicted to smoking cigarettes. I plan to one day stop smoking, but I know if someone just came up to me and told me to "stop smoking cigarettes immediately", I would look at them like they were crazy. And I would probably go and smoke one just to relax and think about what they had just told me. lol.

I think, I mean I definately feel for people who have these kinds of urges. I don't, and am very grateful for that, but I can't help but share sympathy with people who get urges to do anything and who know in their hearts that those urges just might never go away. No matter how much they might wish they did.

So for me, at least for the moment, I smoke. And it does quench my urge. And I know if I was a Native American in the old days that I would most certainly be one of those people in the teepee chiefing on a pipe. lol. And that's just me. Maybe for someone who gets those kind of urges to harm another person from time to time, or to molest someone from time to time, I hate to say it but, maybe that's just them. And maybe they just need some kind of an outlet where they can satisfy their urges at the expense of no one else. I mean to me that's just something I can totally understand. And who am I to say that they shouldn't be able to do that?

If you are going to compare it with smoking then ok :-2

So if you make the decision to give up the smoking and off you trot to see a health professional for help. Is that health professional going to put you in a room and hand you a cigarette so you can get your fix?

Why not hey, doesn't really help you give up your desire hey, but it does fix your need for now. Win win situation all round really don't you think.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:26 pm

Betty Boop;1267194 wrote: If you are going to compare it with smoking then ok :-2

So if you make the decision to give up the smoking and off you trot to see a health professional for help. Is that health professional going to put you in a room and hand you a cigarette so you can get your fix?

Why not hey, doesn't really help you give up your desire hey, but it does fix your need for now. Win win situation all round really don't you think.

Maybe not, but I can tell you this much, nothing satisfies the desire to smoke a cigarette better than smoking a cigarette. And that much I believe any smoker will tell you is true.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:34 pm

TruthBringer;1267195 wrote: Maybe not, but I can tell you this much, nothing satisfies the desire to smoke a cigarette better than smoking a cigarette. And that much I believe any smoker will tell you is true.

I just don't get the comparison of the desire for a cigarette and the desire of raping a child, I'm afraid.

You change your thought processes to give something up, so giving up smoking you would be expected to change your routine and habits.

The child abusers need to change their thoughts and desires, which would involve them changing their routine and their habits. Putting them in a room where they can continue that behaviour is not going to help is it!

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:39 pm

Betty Boop;1267198 wrote: I just don't get the comparison of the desire for a cigarette and the desire of raping a child, I'm afraid.

You change your thought processes to give something up, so giving up smoking you would be expected to change your routine and habits.

The child abusers need to change their thoughts and desires, which would involve them changing their routine and their habits. Putting them in a room where they can continue that behaviour is not going to help is it!

Well see they are both desires. And I would imagine that they are both powerful desires although I can only speak for one and not the other.

In keeping in line with this thread though, if you told me tomorrow that all real cigarettes had been eliminated from the World, and that the only thing I was able to smoke was synthetic cigarettes, that weren't made from real tobacco, but they produced the same effect that tobacco has on the body, that they smelled like real cigarettes, tasted like real cigarettes, and smoked like real cigarettes, I'd figure, what the heck, I'll take a pack. And I would smoke um. And in the long run I guess I'd be just as happy.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:42 pm

You know what I'm gonna go ahead and upgrade the desire to smoke cigarettes from powerful to EXTREMELY powerful. I'd say next to the desire to make love to my girlfriend when it creeps up, there is no stronger physical desire I have ever experienced in my life than when I get the desire to have a smoke. I will drive 60 minutes on the highway to go pick up a few cigarettes. They weren't kidding when they said it was more addictive than Heroin. That's not just an old wise tale either.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:48 pm

And then there are those people who can smoke one cigarette every 3 months and never get the urge to smoke anytime in between then. When it comes to those people, my mind is totally boggled.

But then again, there are those people who have murdered once, and never murdered again. And same goes for certain people who have committed other crimes.

Which proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that for some, once they have fulfilled the desire once, they may never need to fulfill it again. Or at least not as often as others feel the need to.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:56 pm

TruthBringer;1267199 wrote: Well see they are both desires. And I would imagine that they are both powerful desires although I can only speak for one and not the other.

In keeping in line with this thread though, if you told me tomorrow that all real cigarettes had been eliminated from the World, and that the only thing I was able to smoke was synthetic cigarettes, that weren't made from real tobacco, but they produced the same effect that tobacco has on the body, that they smelled like real cigarettes, tasted like real cigarettes, and smoked like real cigarettes, I'd figure, what the heck, I'll take a pack. And I would smoke um. And in the long run I guess I'd be just as happy.

Yes, they are both desires, but in the act of smoking a cigarette, done outdoors and away from any other persons (ie by not smoking over other people and putting them at harm of passive smoking) you are ultimately harming yourself only. You cannot passively rape a child, you physically and mentally hurt them. That's where I cannot grasp your concept of a comparison.

You know that if you should come across a real cigarette after six months of the synthetic you'd still crave a real one for old times sake. I'm a smoker too, I know I would. That's why the answer is to completely break the habit and desire.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:05 pm

Betty Boop;1267205 wrote: Yes, they are both desires, but in the act of smoking a cigarette, done outdoors and away from any other persons (ie by not smoking over other people and putting them at harm of passive smoking) you are ultimately harming yourself only. You cannot passively rape a child, you physically and mentally hurt them. That's where I cannot grasp your concept of a comparison.

You know that if you should come across a real cigarette after six months of the synthetic you'd still crave a real one for old times sake. I'm a smoker too, I know I would. That's why the answer is to completely break the habit and desire.

Where did I say that it's ok to rape and harm a child?

I'm talking about raping a virtual child that's in a video game. How is that even a child? I mean if it's virtual, does it even qualify as a real child? And I'm talking about how it could be used for therapy, not how it would harm someone else. Which it wouldn't. Because it's not effecting anyone except for the person playing it. Not at that moment anyways. Not while they are in a private setting with them and the machine.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:12 pm

TruthBringer;1267207 wrote: Where did I say that it's ok to rape and harm a child?

I'm talking about raping a virtual child that's in a video game. How is that even a child? I mean if it's virtual, does it even qualify as a real child? And I'm talking about how it could be used for therapy, not how it would harm someone else. Which it wouldn't. Because it's not effecting anyone except for the person playing it. Not at that moment anyway. How the person chooses to behave after that moment is up to them. But during the process of playing the game no one else is effected.

My point is that when the game is no longer available the therapy has done nothing to change the behaviour, it's actively encouraged it. That's not treatment that's aiding and abetting.

Rapunzel · Post by **Rapunzel** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:27 pm

TB, you've hit upon an idea which you think is a viable solution and, as an ideal, I can see the point you're trying to make. But you also have to look at the wider picture. I think that society would be disgusted with such a solution were it to be seriously considered. People would be repulsed, there would be an uproar, politicians would jump on the bandwagon and castigate the idea and it would be dropped like a hot potato.

Personally, I agree with everything Betty has said here. The perpetrator would fulfill his need and would want to do something worse to get that same 'high'. Just as drug users move onto stronger and more powerful drugs to get their 'high'. I think you would be creating a monster and, when you captured him, he would blame your system for turning him into the monster he had become.

I think the only way to destroy these cravings is by using chemicals which act on the portion of the brain that creates these cravings. Thus, smokers wear patches to get their nicotine fix but reduce their need for it; drug users do the same with Methodone and likewise sexual perverts need psychological counselling and the right combination of drugs to help their understanding of why doing these things is so wrong and destroy their need to do it. Not all mentally unstable people want to hurt people, many are just like children and take great delight in childish things and in just enjoying their lives.

Rapunzel · Post by **Rapunzel** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:36 pm

Originally Posted by TruthBringer

Where did I say that it's ok to rape and harm a child?

I'm talking about raping a virtual child that's in a video game. How is that even a child? I mean if it's virtual, does it even qualify as a real child? And I'm talking about how it could be used for therapy, not how it would harm someone else. Which it wouldn't. Because it's not effecting anyone except for the person playing it. Not at that moment anyway. How the person chooses to behave after that moment is up to them. But during the process of playing the game no one else is effected.

I'm glad you've changed this, but this says it all! :-5

If you teach someone that its okay to rape and murder a child using a robotic machine that looks and feels like a child to him . . . how on earth do you THINK he is going to CHOOSE TO BEHAVE once he is away from that machine???

Do you HONESTLY THINK that he is going to make a SANE, NORMAL choice after you have taught him that his behaviour is acceptable???

FFS, TB, I think you need your head examined!!!!! :-5:-5:-5:-5:-5

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:44 pm

Yeah it really is a touchy subject, I mean it really is. I just know that technology will increase, and games will one day get to the point where they are more interactive. And it's only a matter of time before the use of video game technology spreads into the mental illness field as well.

I must admit I am a bit disgusted at the thought of someone raping a child in a video game. But I mean I have to look at it in the proper context. I know that it's not really a child being raped, but that it's only happening in the video game world. It's not something I would ever use myself, and I hope most people wouldn't go within 100 yards of a system that offered such programs, but for those people who claim that they enjoy molesting children, and that they will always be that way, and that they never stop having the urge to do such a thing, it might just be a viable solution just as that last poster mentioned.

I mean the act of raping a child is horrible and in my opinion is wrong. It puzzles me how it was a part of the Roman culture to keep children as sex slaves back in history. I can't believe they were actually partaking in those activities for real. Perhaps if they had the technology back then to use a video game system to get the same result, they would have opted for that option instead. I'm not sure, but we'll never be able to ask them I guess.

Right now the technology doesn't exist for such a machine anways, so at the moment I guess this is all just hypothesis. But for some reason I just can't pull myself away from the idea that it will one day be inevitable for these types of games to be created, just because technology is increasing at such a rapid rate, and it is effecting literally every single facet of Human culture. I wouldn't ever be the one to design such a machine, but I just don't see how it will be one day be avoidable. Let's just hope the sexual underground doesn't obtain it first, because already little girls from all around the World are being sold for sex. And it's something that happens for real at the moment every single day. And if those sick people end up being the ones to design such machines first, then I have a feeling that they won't have nearly the same effect as if the medical profession patents them and keeps them under safe observation for use in a controlled environment and as a certified mental illness treatment for the purpose of creating an outlet for these kinds of perverse but factual desires.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:56 pm

Rapunzel;1267215 wrote:

FFS, TB, I think you need your head examined!!!!! :-5:-5:-5:-5:-5

lol. My head is just fine my friend. Next time you play a game where you blow someones head off and the blood splatters onto the screen, and you and your friends laugh and get your kicks from it, then I'll remember that you said that.

If you don't play such games that's fine. But you are the minority then. Not the majority. Some of the most popular games today are some of the most gruesome. And while some people think running a chainsaw through someone's spine in a game for the pure visual stimulation and enjoyment from it is so much more ethical than raping a child in a video game setting, well....I'd like to ask them exactly how it was that they came to that conclusion.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:10 pm

Another dose of irony for you. I just came into the room after watching two really good boxing matches and my girlfriend was in the middle of playing Grand Theft Auto for the X-box 360. And she tells me to look at the screen and what do I see (She was laughing of course), the guy she is playing - Niko (the main character in the game) - was getting a hand job from one of the hookers she picked up off the street. And you could actually see the girls arm moving up and down while the guy Niko was looking towards the ceiling of the car with a look of pure pleasure on his face.

This is the reality of video games today folks. I'm not talking out of my ass here. We are living in a time where all kinds of things are being explored through the video game World. Now you can't tell me that rape is not that far away. Murder in video games is already a hallmark and has been well established.

We can cover our eyes and pretend like we don't play these kind of games, or we can proudly admit that we do. There is a purpose behind video games, and one of those purposes is to experience things in the game that you wouldn't think of experiencing in real life. The same benefits that we "normal" people get from playing them could very well have a similar effect on a real life sex offender or murderer. It's something that we have to consider, and it doesn't make you a bad person for considering it.

Rapunzel · Post by **Rapunzel** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:12 am

TruthBringer;1267287 wrote: it might just be a viable solution just as that last poster mentioned.

I'm sorry to be pedantic, but I was the last poster and I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT!!! think that your idea is a viable solution!

ABSOLUTELY NOT! No way! No how!

If you're going to quote someone, then please quote them accurately!

What I ACTUALLY said was:

"YOU'VE hit upon an idea which YOU THINK is a viable solution"

PLEASE don't include me in that statement as I think it is totally abhorrent and repulsive and I would NEVER in a billion years consider your idea to be a viable solution! It's beyond disgusting and perverted imo!

Rapunzel · Post by **Rapunzel** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:21 am

TruthBringer;1267288 wrote: lol. My head is just fine my friend. Next time you play a game where you blow someones head off and the blood splatters onto the screen, and you and your friends laugh and get your kicks from it, then I'll remember that you said that.

Now why would you assume I play such games?

I play Tetris, Brain Training and puzzle type games. I teach children. I don't get any enjoyment from the thought of killing anything, even on a computer screen. The only people who seem to play those games are teenage boys and young men. I don't even know of any teenage girls who play games like that. I can only assume there is a little of the hunter-gatherer gene still left in some mens DNA code which makes them want to hunt and kill something to win a prize. Hopefully they'll grow out of it when they grow up a bit.

I'm guessing you like games like that.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:44 am

Rapunzel;1267329 wrote: Now why would you assume I play such games?

I play Tetris, Brain Training and puzzle type games. I teach children. I don't get any enjoyment from the thought of killing anything, even on a computer screen. The only people who seem to play those games are teenage boys and young men. I don't even know of any teenage girls who play games like that. I can only assume there is a little of the hunter-gatherer gene still left in some mens DNA code which makes them want to hunt and kill something to win a prize. Hopefully they'll grow out of it when they grow up a bit.

I'm guessing you like games like that.

I think you need to have YOUR head examined. I know tons of girls who play violent games. How do I even know you are telling me the truth? You probably jut don't want to look bad. Have you ever watched the video game channel? Seen the tournaments on there? Yeah, news flash, girls playing games where they are killing people left and right.

Have you seen the hills have eyes movie? Great movie.....guess what....the girl gets raped in the trailor of that movie. Did I freak out and call the police after watching it? No....it was part of the damn movie.

I think where some of you are getting confused is that perhaps you think I am saying that these therapy video game devices should be next to everyone's tv sets in their homes. With the rape programs, the murder programs, etc. Like after a nice dinner with our families we can all turn on our rape machines for a little fun time as opposed to playing scrabble. lol.

I never said that. I don't want them to be sold on the open market because I know that certain people would use them who they weren't intended for. I think they should be provided at certain mental institutions or whatever or wherever away from the general public and yes I do think they are a good idea. And I stand by that statement because I believe they would be beneficial to people who sometimes have powerful urges to do harm to another Human being in some way - be it sexually or otherwise. It would be a release for them, and that release goes alot farther than you might be giving it credit. It's the buildup of their emotions that can really cause the problem for them. I think once it gets to the point where they haven't found a release for their urges, they will no doubt explode out of that person, and like any bomb that explodes, or anything under pressure that explodes, once it happens, there is no telling what the damage will be.

You just don't want to think about these people. That's your problem. You can't just tuck these people under the rug and pretend they don't exist. They are out there in the World. And in many cases they are not Evil people. They just have very different urges than you and I. But they are none the less your Brothers and your Sisters under God. So why not start acting like it?

The jail system can't catch everybody people. As much as I love the thought of every single child molester, rapist, murderer, thief, and every other criminal behind bars, I know this is not ever going to be a reality. And what about the ones who haven't acted on their urges yet? Perhaps something can be done for them so that they don't have to end up in jail. So if there are different ways to deal with these people - PREVENTATIVE CARE - why the hell wouldn't we do it?

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:26 am

By the way, the girl in that movie The Hills Have Eyes was an underage teenage girl. And yes she was getting raped. And yes, millions of people have seen that movie either in the movie theatres or at home on their direct tv sets. It earned $15,500,000 in its opening weekend in the U.S. And that was just it's opening weekend.

And then you have to ask yourself, what made that girl choose that role and choose to do that scene? Does that make her crazy for choosing to do it? Is she sick and disgusting for choosing to act out that scene in the movie? Should the director of that movie be put in jail for producing it?

No. And why? Because it's just a movie. We know it wasn't real Life. And video games are no different in that sense.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:17 am

I'd say that, unless you have played one of the recent hyper-realistic persistant-world games like "Oblivion," or "Fallout 3," then you may not understand that videogames have already crossed the threshold of psychological significance.

Take "Oblivion," for example, in that game, the choices you make result in being treated completely differently by the characters in the game. (Characters who are so real in their dialogues and personalities as to actually blur reality.) I love this game, and played it making only the best choices (fits my username) so that everyone in the game came to respect and like me, but I know another gamer, with a dark personality, that made the exact opposite choices.

He was very pleased that everyone in the game hated and feared him.

My wife, who also eventually was drawn into the game by seeing the wonderful vistas, incredible detail, amazing people, and huge sight distances, played completely differently, avoiding quests and instead focusing on buying houses in each town and decorating them!

You can see that the game appealed to and filled a need for each person's psychology. Will that affect their behavior as a person in the real world? Well.... of course it does! My wife, who loves to travel and can't get enough of it, it much more at ease after her 'travels" in game. The other gamer, with a need to be mean to people, but without the courage or ability to do that in actuality with getting his butt kicked, gets his wish fulfilled.

And me? After a whole day of drama upon drama, locked in a room with teenagers for 13 hours, I feel much refreshed to walk through a town that is filled with people that are calm, adjusted, and happy to see their benefactor!;)

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:27 am

Saint_;1267421 wrote: I'd say that, unless you have played one of the recent hyper-realistic persistant-world games like "Oblivion," or "Fallout 3," then you may not understand that videogames have already crossed the threshold of psychological significance.

Take "Oblivion," for example, in that game, the choices you make result in being treated completely differently by the characters in the game. (Characters who are so real in their dialogues and personalities as to actually blur reality.) I love this game, and played it making only the best choices (fits my username) so that everyone in the game came to respect and like me, but I know another gamer, with a dark personality, that made the exact opposite choices.

He was very pleased that everyone in the game hated and feared him.

My wife, who also eventually was drawn into the game by seeing the wonderful vistas, incredible detail, amazing people, and huge sight distances, played completely differently, avoiding quests and instead focusing on buying houses in each town and decorating them!

You can see that the game appealed to and filled a need for each person's psychology. Will that affect their behavior as a person in the real world? Well.... of course it does! My wife, who loves to travel and can't get enough of it, it much more at ease after her 'travels" in game. The other gamer, with a need to be mean to people, but without the courage or ability to do that in actuality with getting his butt kicked, gets his wish fulfilled.

And me? After a whole day of drama upon drama, locked in a room with teenagers for 13 hours, I feel much refreshed to walk through a town that is filled with people that are calm, adjusted, and happy to see their benefactor!;)

Yes my friend but I have a feeling that the games are going to get much deeper into the psychological realm than that. Although that is a good start. And I love Oblivion. It's one of my favorite games.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:14 am

When I was playing Oblivion....I ran into this house and it was all dark...and this guy comes out of the shadows and he says I am under arrest and bla bla bla, and he told me I either pay him money or I go to jail. So I refused...and so we fought and I killed him. Then....I had to take his stuff he had on him and I stole his armor and stuff, lol. But then...his wife comes around the corner with a knife and starts charging at me. Now I didn't want to harm the lady, but she wouldn't stop trying to attack me, so I was forced to kill her. And then I robbed the house, (I collected some of the silver goblets and things that they had on their shelf, and I took them to sell them on the black market).

Pretty cool game indeed. It's amazing really how the graphics are so crisp.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:19 am

TruthBringer;1267472 wrote: When I was playing Oblivion....I ran into this house and it was all dark...and this guy comes out of the shadows and he says I am under arrest and bla bla bla, and he told me I either pay him money or I go to jail. So I refused...and so we fought and I killed him. Then....I had to take his stuff he had on him and I stole his armor and stuff, lol. But then...his wife comes around the corner with a knife and starts charging at me. Now I didn't want to harm the lady, but she wouldn't stop trying to attack me, so I was forced to kill her. And then I robbed the house, (I collected some of the silver goblets and things that they had on their shelf, and I took them to sell them on the black market).

Pretty cool game indeed. It's amazing really how the graphics are so crisp.

Yeah, heh. The first time I got in a house, I did the same thing without realizing that, unless it's YOUR house or a guild that you belong to, the game considers it "stealing" and there are the same consequences for that as in the real world!

I had to load and be VERY careful not to do that again.