Eamonn Mcann

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:57 pm

Have been watching the Irish activist Eamonn Mcann.................granted I don't know much about him .

If anyone here would like to fill me in I'd very much appreciate it. Your opinions rather than what is said in the media

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:01 pm

Watching where?

He's not a name that's ever stuck in my memory I'm afraid.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:02 pm

I've been watching his speeches on you tube.

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:03 pm

I suppose I'd better go and find a few then. What on earth made you do that in the first place?

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:05 pm

Never mind my reasons :sneaky::) Nothing too dire. just wanted to know whether he was ever involved in IRA protests.

correction Looks like he was.

It's okay spot just learning about the "troubles" and what really went on back then. tis all

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:10 pm

Blimey. YouTube - Eamonn McCann Speech at Anti War Protest is the chap?

I've no doubt he was an activist at the start of the troubles but that was forty years ago and nobody could now dispute the rightness of those protests.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:19 pm

Hmmm I was thinking that . I'm beginning from scratch to understand all what it was about. I'm just finding it interesting .

Two men have recently visited our shores and did a talk at a union luncheon . I heard about it after the fact (damn it) but they are coming back and I'd like to hear what they have to say about being falsly accused tortured and imprisoned as IRA suspects. I didn't realise so many were.

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:23 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1269254 wrote: Hmmm I was thinking that . I'm beginning from scratch to understand all what it was about. I'm just finding it interesting .

Two men have recently visited our shores and did a talk at a union luncheon . I heard about it after the fact (damn it) but they are coming back and I'd like to hear what they have to say about being falsly accused tortured and imprisoned as IRA suspects. I didn't realise so many were.

And jailed with no right to a jury trial. The torture bit is very well documented and was extreme. Some deliberately starved themselves to death while protesting against the conditions in which they were held and the refusal of the British Government to recognise them as political prisoners. One of those had even been elected to Westminster as a Member of Parliament.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:25 pm

they are somewhat famous for their imprisonment. Hang on I'll see if I can remember one of them.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:27 pm

Paddy Hill ring a bell? birmingham six? and one of the guys from the Guilford four. I just think it would be a very interesting talk . what I was told about the speech they gave is that they didn't think ill of the average bobby .

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:30 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1269265 wrote: Paddy Hill ring a bell?

A total innocent framed by the West Midlands police force, desperate to get a quick arrest after an IRA outrage in Birmingham. Completely vindicated by the appeals court after sixteen years in jail.

Bobby Sands was the chap protesting conditions in the Irish jails.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:35 pm

gerry conlan that's the other one.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:39 pm

Hmmm, know a little of bobby . Hmmm just asked over the phone. things are obviously still raw because I was told not to ask things over the phone. ooops!!!

My ignorance of all these things is astounding.

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:39 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1269273 wrote: gerry conlan that's the other one.

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/crime ... #post84088 gives a hint or two of the background. It's a vile story.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:59 am

Pretty grim stuff. Another example of the age old question: Who keeps an eye on the police?

I have the impression that the late '70s and early '80s were a particularly bad period for British policing. Another reason to be glad we don't have the death penalty.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:24 am

Another reason to remember that human rights legislation isn't to protect criminals it's to protect you from the authorities. you have no defence in this country if the government wants to railroad you.

My son will never survive US trial, warns Scots-born hacker Gary McKinnon's mother - Scotsman.com Heritage & Culture

She called for a review of extradition laws, adding: "The only people who won't get extradited are terrorists who face the death sentence, the very people this act was meant to be about.

They've been given a week to appeal to the european court-everybody else gets three months.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:26 pm

Clodhopper;1269451 wrote: Pretty grim stuff. Another example of the age old question: Who keeps an eye on the police?

I have the impression that the late '70s and early '80s were a particularly bad period for British policing. Another reason to be glad we don't have the death penalty.

Nothing to do with the police Clod. Who watches the police ? The government, and when the government wants to criminalise a political action/ or war. who gets to do the dirty work ?

I'm just overwhelmed that a country can forget that they send their troops to another country and then sit back and say "nah it's just a police action" and those who are in the midst of it are crying out no it's not this is a war! to this very day ....TODAY in the last twenty four hours an irish flag is not allowed to hang from their own town halls. ................what the heck is that all about?

Your government not only rips the irish off but lies to you as well....Damn, you should be angry !!!!!! I am. If thats not injustice still, then I don't know what is. If the english came here and told us to fly the union jack over the Australian flag what do you reckon would happen? .....................God we'd fall over laughing!!!! We couldn't take it seriously but this is different . This is absurd!!!

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:32 pm

spot;1269270 wrote: A total innocent framed by the West Midlands police force, desperate to get a quick arrest after an IRA outrage in Birmingham. Completely vindicated by the appeals court after sixteen years in jail.

Bobby Sands was the chap protesting conditions in the Irish jails.

and poor Patrick Mcguire .....what the hell is that all about imprisoning a child at 13? WTF?

Not just the police but the British press and everyone sucked into the "he said she said". routine.

I had no idea how bad it got ................one thing I noticed though more innocent people were killed by non IRA than the IRA ever did.

and I know Iknow I'm over the other side of the world!!! what would I know . Well people are speaking now ......if it heals then that's good, but if it's still going on and certain people are still discrinimated against then that's just not on !!!!!!!

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:35 pm

gmc;1269471 wrote: Another reason to remember that human rights legislation isn't to protect criminals it's to protect you from the authorities. you have no defence in this country if the government wants to railroad you.

My son will never survive US trial, warns Scots-born hacker Gary McKinnon's mother - Scotsman.com Heritage & Culture

They've been given a week to appeal to the european court-everybody else gets three months.

that's disgusting.

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:47 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1271892 wrote: TODAY in the last twenty four hours an irish flag is not allowed to hang from their own town halls. ................what the heck is that all about?You're aware, I take it, that there are two Irelands? The Republican one in the south that's a sovereign country with a flag, and the British one in the north that's a province of the UK. As far as I know it's quite okay to fly the flag of the Republic of Ireland from the Town Halls of the independent country. Why would it be okay to fly it from Town Halls in the United Kingdom?

It's *not* an acceptable answer to say the constitutional arrangement of the six counties ought to be different to what it is, we're discussing the real world.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:43 pm

Northern Ireland doesn't want to be part of you ....you havent noticed yet? And how do lyou explain the discrimination they have had to live with ? Hey I want a british opinion as well as a northern Ireland opinion ........You do indeed realise that northern Ireland being part of the british empire was news to me. I never thought of them as british even as a child. So if the rest of the world assumes this as just common knowledge, albeit wrong ....shouldn't they have their independence? why would such a small province be of such great importance to England?

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:47 pm

Fuzzy, when we ran a charter/trip boat on the River Trent in Nottinghamshire, we gave a cruise to a bunch of Irish children from Belfast. It was all cloak and dagger stuff. The visit of these children to England was organised by a Church of England vicar, in the county. It took a lot of careful and secret planning. The children, both Protestant and Catholic came over to stay with English families in the locality, during the 'troubles', and they were here for two weeks. This became an annual event. Various outings were organised for them all, coach trips, film trips, day trips to the seaside, and of course a cruise on the river on our boat. There were usually a couple of dozen children all aged around 11-12, and it mattered not that they were of different religions, and it was a wonderful break for them to get away from all the violence and day-to-day fear. These children had only known violence, killings, knee-cappings, bombings, soldiers with guns patrolling the streets. To experience two weeks of total peace must have been heaven for them all.

This vicar had told me during the cruise, that if the IRA or the other factions had ever found out about these trips, those children and their families would have been in awful danger! So would the vicar and the others involved with the secret organising.

One little event, during the cruise, that I will never forget :-

Some of the children were up on the upper deck, with some of the adults, and the rest were down in the saloon, also with some of the adults. (I hasten to add that no alcohol was available - only tea, coffe and soft drinks for the children).

A small group of boys had been gathered round one of the tables, playing with the beer mats. One or two of them asked if they could have some of these mats to take home with them, but one of the Irish adults told them no, because of the risk of them being found by the 'wrong' people. The children were disappointed, but understood the importance of not taking 'souvenirs' back to Ireland. These mats were all the same - Marston's Pedigree Bitter. After a few minutes one of the group of boys came to the bar and asked "Could you let us have another load of these beer mats, Mrs, please...................... We'd like to play 'Snap' with them !" He had a mischievious twinkle in his eye and a quirky grin as he asked me! I laughed with him as I handed out a fist full of these beer mats to him, and I secretly marvelled at the ability these children had of retaining a lovely sense of humour despite all the violence that they were living amongst back in Belfast.

The Lord Mayor of Nottingham accompanied the children on the cruise as well. He was the first black Lord Mayor to hold that office, and the children were fascinated with him, and with his chain of office. Oh yes, and the Lord Mayor had a wonderful sense of fun, and mixed very cheerfully with all the children, and they loved it. We made a stop at a country park, during the cruise, and let the children leave the boat to play on a nearby adventure playground, where there was also an aerial runway - very popular! The last we saw of the Lord Mayor, for about half an hour, was him being herded hand-in-hand by some of the children purposefully towards this aerial runway ! I'm still not sure that he actually had a go on it, but it would not surprise me if he did!

I felt it was a privilege to have been involved with helping to give those children a happy stay in England. I often wonder what happened to them, what they did with their lives, did they have children of their own, and most importantly, were they happy at last.

:-6

Attached files

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:51 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1271911 wrote: Northern Ireland doesn't want to be part of you ....you havent noticed yet?The trouble is that you don't know what you're talking about, sadly. The majority of people in Northern Ireland are bigoted Unionist anti-Republicans who would rather die firing their Lee Enfield Mark 4 at the Papist Hordes than see the six counties leave the UK. If you haven't grasped that, you're really incapable of understanding why there's a problem there at all.

Oh... "why would such a small province be of such great importance to England", you asked. We'd love to be shot of them, seriously. They hold us to ransom by threatening a bloodbath if we try to let go. We've been trying to let go since 1870. We tried very hard to in 1922 but Carson and his threatened uprising prevented us. We really ought to have bitten down hard and just done it back then.

Oh - point of information - it's not part of the British Empire either, it's part of the United Kingdom.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:10 pm

It's nice that you did that for children from a War zone ..that's really my point I guess. If it's all a "criminal act" then how does a treaty, a cease fire, and peace declarations fit into a crinimal act? how can the British government round up over 500 people and put them in internment camps and hold them for years and without trial......yes I know prisons made it look like they weren't interned, but imprisoned like criminals.

G-gill I had somone come out from Ireland back in the mid eighties . didn't realise the significance at the time because we were kept in the dark. He and his father had come home to find their house blown up and his father threatened with kneecapping. Another person I know of was picked up off the street,"detained" by masked men until they figured out who he was .........Just a tourist from australia wearing his local football jumper (red white and blue) OOPS!!! He learnt very quickly not the thing to do.

Well Spot that's your opinion . "British Loyalists" then spot backed as it was by the British government.? Am I confused spot? more than ever actually, because in order to push everything under the carpet now their are soooooo many IRA splinter groups that it doesn't bear thinking about. that's what worries me

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:11 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1271915 wrote: Well Spot that's your opinion . "British Loyalists" then spot backed as it was by the British government.? Am I confused spot? more than ever actually, because in order to push everything under the carpet now their are soooooo many IRA splinter groups that it doesn't bear thinking about. that's what worries me

Here you go, this might help.

In terms of community background, 53.1% of the Northern Irish population came from a Protestant background, 43.8% came from a Catholic background, 0.4% from non-Christian backgrounds and 2.7% non-religious backgrounds.

According to a 2007 opinion poll, 66% express long term preference of the maintenance of Northern Ireland's membership of the United Kingdom (either directly ruled or with devolved government), while 23% express a preference for membership of a united Ireland. This discrepancy can be explained by the overwhelming preference among Protestants to remain a part of the UK (89%), while Catholic preferences are spread across a number of solutions to the constitutional question including remaining a part of the UK (39%), a united Ireland (47%), Northern Ireland becoming an independent state (6%), and those who "don't know" (7%).

Northern Ireland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:15 pm

spot;1271914 wrote: The trouble is that you don't know what you're talking about, sadly. The majority of people in Northern Ireland are bigoted Unionist anti-Republicans who would rather die firing their Lee Enfield Mark 4 at the Papist Hordes than see the six counties leave the UK. If you haven't grasped that, you're really incapable of understanding why there's a problem there at all.

Oh... "why would such a small province be of such great importance to England", you asked. We'd love to be shot of them, seriously. They hold us to ransom by threatening a bloodbath if we try to let go. We've been trying to let go since 1870. We tried very hard to in 1922 but Carson and his threatened uprising prevented us. We really ought to have bitten down hard and just done it back then.

Oh - point of information - it's not part of the British Empire either, it's part of the United Kingdom.

Okay then Spot teach me ...but don't throw statistics because that's what we've always been thrown . Remember when all of America wanted to go to war??????? What were they fed? Statistics . Makes the individual compliant.

Okay how many employees of the town halls are Catholic? do catholics and protestants live literally side by side (over the back fence so to speak ) these days? Are there no political parties that support the seperation from England itself?

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:17 pm

solutions to the constitutional question including remaining a part of the UK (39%), a united Ireland (47%), Northern Ireland becoming an independent state (6%), and those who "don't know" (7%).

Then why hasn't it been done?

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:28 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1271918 wrote: [quote=spot]solutions to the constitutional question including remaining a part of the UK (39%), a united Ireland (47%), Northern Ireland becoming an independent state (6%), and those who "don't know" (7%).Then why hasn't it been done?

Good lord... because what you quoted is the minority Roman Catholic preference!!

Are you completely set against the majority democratic preference being the deciding factor? Because - if you check those figures - the majority democratic preference of the population of Northern Ireland is to remain a province of the United Kingdom and has been for centuries.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:31 pm

Idi Amin had a majority democratic preference.:sneaky:

I just don't believe those figures are correct ..as I said earlier about statistics.

Anyway I'm off I've got visitors

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:34 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1271917 wrote: Okay then Spot teach me ...but don't throw statistics because that's what we've always been thrown . Remember when all of America wanted to go to war??????? What were they fed? Statistics . Makes the individual compliant.What part of "majority" do you not understand?

fuzzywuzzy wrote: Okay how many employees of the town halls are Catholic? do catholics and protestants live literally side by side (over the back fence so to speak ) these days? Are there no political parties that support the seperation from England itself?

It depends on which enclave you live in. In Londonderry, for example, it might now be Catholics in the Town Hall. In most places, by far the majority, it would be Unionists.

They each live predominantly in enclaves though there are a few exception areas, not many.

Sinn Fein supports the separation from the United Kingdom itself. Bear in mind that where you use "England" the reality is England, Wales and Scotland.

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:38 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1271922 wrote: I just don't believe those figures are correct ..as I said earlier about statistics.

When it comes to "stand to the rear if you're Catholic, forward if you're Protestant" it's a simple enough count and the figures have been pretty much constant for the best part of the last century. By all means refuse to recognise the truth but the truth is there's more people in Northern Ireland who have a Protestant background, which is why there's a problem in the first place. If it weren't so there'd be no Northern Ireland.

fuzzywuzzy wrote: Idi Amin had a majority democratic preference.No, Idi Amin took power in a coup and never held a national election from the time he took office as President in 1971 to the time he fled in 1979. You'd do a lot better if you faced up to a few essential facts rather than talking wildly. Either we're discussing reality or we're discussing your prejudices which is odd because we both actually want the same thing. The difference is that I'd rather see a meaningful picture rather than a self-induced fantasy.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:32 am

fuzzywuzzy;1271922 wrote: Idi Amin had a majority democratic preference.:sneaky:

I just don't believe those figures are correct ..as I said earlier about statistics.

Anyway I'm off I've got visitors

What's the point in asking someone to teach you and then accuse him of giving you false information? You can check the validity of the statistics if you want. If you are not going to listen then why bother?

The simple fact is that the majority in northern ireland are protestant and have no wish to be united with a mainly catholic Southern Ireland. More to the point they are ready to fight to defend their religion. Post independence in 1922 there was a civil war in Ireland between two factions of the IRA-those who wanted to unite the whole of Ireland and those who accepted partition. The more moderate faction won. The Protestants in the northern six counties were more than ready to go to war over the issue because they didn't want to be part of a catholic country there would have been full scale warfare. Bottom line is if you are a protestant would you want to, live in a country where the state religion is catholic? That means no access to contraceptives no abortions etc etc

It makes no sense unless you know a bit about the background-this might help.

BBC - History - The Road to Northern Ireland, 1167 to 1921

Even then it might make no sense that events over three hundred years ago have such an impact now but if the protestants hadn't won the UK-and Australia would have been very different. The english civil war was about who ruled-a king by divine right or parliament of the people. The king lost though cromwell in some ways gets a bad press but imagine a dictatorship of christian fundamentalists and you begin to understand why. I have seen it suggested that the memory remains as a visceral instinct in the british that means we can't stand extremists. If you are not religious it's hard to understand the passions but there was no choice in the matter you had to choose a side-rule by divinely appointed kings and the pope in rome or a protestant king and relative religious freedom. Protestant and catholic used to take turn about setting fire to each other all in the name if religion.

The seminal event was the battle of the boyne when the catholics lost. the victory is still commemorated.

YouTube - orange walk belfast

the no surrender signs you see in belfast hark back to the refusal of londonderry to surrender to the jacobites. It's not distant history to a lot of people in northern ireland.

The 1715 and 1745 rebellions in scotland were the last fling of catholic kings to take back the throne of britain. despite the way they are often-times portrayed it was not the scots against the English fighting for their freedom but part of a greater conflict.