Do You Agree or Disagree ?

[Lon]

These statements by Thomas Jefferson are partially responsible for many Americans thinking on a wide range of issues and it's also what separates us from other countries thinking on the same issues. From early school years, Jefferson, Franklin, Hamilton etc. have influenced our thinking. This way of thinking is changing and only time will tell if it's for the better or worse.

How Did Jefferson Know????



Especially read the last quote from 1802.

When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe,

we shall become as corrupt as Europe .

Thomas Jefferson

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those

who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

Thomas Jefferson

It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes.

A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.

Thomas Jefferson

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the

government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

Thomas Jefferson

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.

Thomas Jefferson

No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.

Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Thomas Jefferson

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

Thomas Jefferson

To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

Thomas Jefferson

'I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.'

Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:

[Ahso!]

Thomas Jefferson was definitely a resident of his time. I doubt he had the foresight to reconcile issues such as overpopulation, pollution, equal rights, world wars and possible annihilation due to nuclear weaponry. But he was a smart person.

[Clodhopper]

Did you miss out the 1802 quotation, or is it the last on your list? If it's the last on the list are you are saying the USA is hopelessly corrupt?

[Lon]

Clodhopper;1277932 wrote: Did you miss out the 1802 quotation, or is it the last on your list? If it's the last on the list are you are saying the USA is hopelessly corrupt?


It's the last quote and I don't recall saying the U.S. was hopelessly corrupt.

[Ahso!]

Lon;1277950 wrote: It's the last quote and I don't recall saying the U.S. was hopelessly corrupt.I think what CH meant is its odd to see the post finish with a colon. Usually a colon suggests that there is more information forthcoming.

Ch's final question is asking if that is what you are implying, not that that is what you had said.:-6

[Lon]

Ahso!;1277962 wrote: I think what CH meant is its odd to see the post finish with a colon. Usually a colon suggests that there is more information forthcoming.

Ch's final question is asking if that is what you are implying, not that that is what you had said.:-6


That was all the info--I did a quick copy and paste.

You are right---I did not mean to imply anything, however there is no doubt that there is corruption in the U.S., just like every other country.

[Clodhopper]

Sorry, have a bug at the moment and managed to get myself thoroughly confused. I'd got it into what currently passes for my head that the quotation about cities, europe and corruption was the last one...

durr (snork, sniffle, cough)

[fuzzywuzzy]

Is there any written reasoning behind the quotes or do we just read into them as we wish?

[LarsMac]

Well, I agree, in principle, with most of those statements.

I can't say for a certainty that they are all from TJ, so have to, for the moment, take your word for that.

He is also credited with the following:

A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.

All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression.

An association of men who will not quarrel with one another is a thing which has never yet existed, from the greatest confederacy of nations down to a town meeting or a vestry.

Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories.

Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.

[Ahso!]

It's funny when you compare Jefferson and Hamilton. They seem so much alike and different simultaneously - Democrat and Republican.

[Lon]

fuzzywuzzy;1278293 wrote: Is there any written reasoning behind the quotes or do we just read into them as we wish?


I thought the post was pretty self explanatory----do you agree or disagree with all, some, or none of Jefferson's quotes?

[Lon]

Ahso!;1277749 wrote: Thomas Jefferson was definitely a resident of his time. I doubt he had the foresight to reconcile issues such as overpopulation, pollution, equal rights, world wars and possible annihilation due to nuclear weaponry.


Probably not, but what does that have to do with his statements?

[Lon]

LarsMac;1278313 wrote: Well, I agree, in principle, with most of those statements.

I can't say for a certainty that they are all from TJ, so have to, for the moment, take your word for that.

He is also credited with the following:

A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.

All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression.

An association of men who will not quarrel with one another is a thing which has never yet existed, from the greatest confederacy of nations down to a town meeting or a vestry.

Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories.

Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.


I searched out the Jefferson quotes and they are apparently authentic.

[Ahso!]

Lon;1278335 wrote: Probably not, but what does that have to do with his statements?Just that they lose much of their relevance in todays world. For what its worth, I fall on the side of Jefferson as opposed to Hamilton more often than not.

[LarsMac]

Lon;1278336 wrote: I searched out the Jefferson quotes and they are apparently authentic.


agreed.

I also tend towards the Jefferson's view over Hamilton's.

And then there is the other Thomas (Paine) from whom comes my favorite quote:

Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries BY A GOVERNMENT, which we might expect in a country WITHOUT GOVERNMENT, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer.

[Ahso!]

LarsMac;1278344 wrote: agreed.

I also tend towards the Jefferson's view over Hamilton's.

And then there is the other Thomas (Paine) from whom comes my favorite quote:That trouble maker!:wah: Paine could have pissed Jesus off.

[LarsMac]

Ahso!;1278338 wrote: Just that they lose much of their relevance in todays world. For what its worth, I fall on the side of Jefferson as opposed to Hamilton more often than not.


I am not sure how much relevance TJ has lost. much of what he wrote has been proven over the last century or so.

[Clodhopper]

Ok, I don't know much about Jefferson except he's a hero to Americans. To an outsider, his cleverness and long sight show. But so do a few other things

I don't think there's much doubt he was a wise man. But isn't there a sense that his demands for small government rather contradict the quotation below (copied from Larsmac)?

Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.


If not government, what is going to stop the rich preying on the poor like predator on prey? It seems to me the following (from Lon's bit) might apply:

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the

government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

Thomas Jefferson

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.

Thomas Jefferson

No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.

Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Thomas Jefferson

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

Thomas Jefferson




Now the way I take that is to suggest that free men should bear arms in order to shoot the oppressive rich, whether the rich are "government" or not - especially since "government" in the c18th was by the rich. Curiosity: Has there ever been a poor president? Curiosity: Did early US governments involve the poor, because it modern ones don't seem to. Or is this a false impression I've gained through the media?

On guns for all, which seems to mean so much to so many Americans:

In his "commonplace book," he copied a passage from Cesare, Marquis of Beccaria related to the issue of gun control. The quote reads, "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes ... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."[83][84][85]


(A Wiki quotation, so please tell me if it's wrong or out of context).

This might be true before the advent of a police force. After the advent of the police, it means more gun battles and innocent bystanders caught in the crossfire. If it were just plain true, the UK should have a much higher murder rate than the USA. We don't.

It also seems to me as an ignorant Brit, that there's no point having a gun to protect yourself with if it's not somewhere you can get at it instantly at all times. Otherwise you can guarantee that the time you really need it, you're in the bath and the gun is in your "pants" in the bedroom. No doubt I'm wrong about this, but I'll need someone to show me where.

Isn't there also a certain uneasiness about a man who advocates the abolition of slavery but keeps slaves all his life (though I understand he treated them very well)?

[Clodhopper]

Oh - general point - please understand that I'm probing his ideas, not attacking the USA.

[Raven]

Lon;1277741 wrote: These statements by Thomas Jefferson are partially responsible for many Americans thinking on a wide range of issues and it's also what separates us from other countries thinking on the same issues. From early school years, Jefferson, Franklin, Hamilton etc. have influenced our thinking. This way of thinking is changing and only time will tell if it's for the better or worse.



How Did Jefferson Know????







Especially read the last quote from 1802.

When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe,

we shall become as corrupt as Europe .

Thomas Jefferson

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those

who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

Thomas Jefferson

It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes.

A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.

Thomas Jefferson

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the

government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

Thomas Jefferson

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.

Thomas Jefferson

No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.

Thomas Jefferson

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Thomas Jefferson

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

Thomas Jefferson

To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

Thomas Jefferson

'I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.'

Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:
I think there is no way to escape the evil that all governments become, no matter how well meaning they start. America is the perfect example. It is following the same path as Rome.

[LarsMac]

Clodhopper;1278442 wrote: Oh - general point - please understand that I'm probing his ideas, not attacking the USA.


Well I know what you mean. Good questions.

Answers will take some thought and time.

[Saint_]

Lon, aren't you forgetting that Jefferson thought the two-party system would be the death of this country?:rolleyes:

[Lon]

Saint_;1278584 wrote: Lon, aren't you forgetting that Jefferson thought the two-party system would be the death of this country?:rolleyes:


No---not forgetting, but does that discredit his statements?