Major attack in Kabul.
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Major attack in Kabul.
This endorses my opinion that we should with-draw totally and leave them to It.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Major attack in Kabul.
Richard Holbrook, on the other hand, reckons it will have no long-term effect and called it a sign of desperation by a twelve-man team intent on dying. Myself, I'd take it as a reminder to the current Afghan administration that nobody's going to leave them in place once the Western occupation ends.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Major attack in Kabul.
And it re-enforces my opinion that guerilla wars cannot be won by conventional forces fighting in a conventional way.
There are only two ways to win this war:
1. Begin guerilla operations of our own and that includes strikes on their villages and destruction of the entire infrastructure. (Which we would then have to rebuild.) General Sherman had it right when he said, "War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over." It also includes repression and retaliation against civilian populations. As the Romans well knew, that's not going to make us any friends, but it will subdue a country.
2. Total war. Break out the nukes, turn the country into a slate of glass, and move our own population in after everyone else is dead. Total genocide. Again, that does not make us popular in the world's eyes and will ultimately cost us economically unless we are willing to take on the entire planet.
Since the US is not now, nor will ever be, ready for those alternatives....this war cannot be "won."
There are only two ways to win this war:
1. Begin guerilla operations of our own and that includes strikes on their villages and destruction of the entire infrastructure. (Which we would then have to rebuild.) General Sherman had it right when he said, "War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over." It also includes repression and retaliation against civilian populations. As the Romans well knew, that's not going to make us any friends, but it will subdue a country.
2. Total war. Break out the nukes, turn the country into a slate of glass, and move our own population in after everyone else is dead. Total genocide. Again, that does not make us popular in the world's eyes and will ultimately cost us economically unless we are willing to take on the entire planet.
Since the US is not now, nor will ever be, ready for those alternatives....this war cannot be "won."
Major attack in Kabul.
A free and fair election in Afghanistan, the day one's allowed, will return a Taliban majority. Just as a free and fair election in Iraq, the day one's allowed, will return the anti-Western Ba'athists to power. The current Iraqi election bias is due overwhelmingly to 500 Sunni candidates having just been barred from standing. The more Western troops are in the country the greater the long-term festering hatred of occupiers will grow. Is there anyone here who thinks there's ever been an occasion when an occupation by foreign troops was popular with the majority of the local citizens?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Major attack in Kabul.
spot;1283188 wrote: Is there anyone here who thinks there's ever been an occasion when an occupation by foreign troops was popular with the majority of the local citizens?
Great point, Spot. I once read that there is no way to help people outside of your own country, even if they need it desperately.
If you try to force them to take help, they resent the force. If you try to do it peacefully, they resent the handout and the implication that they can't take care of themselves.
It's a no-win situation.:-5
Great point, Spot. I once read that there is no way to help people outside of your own country, even if they need it desperately.
If you try to force them to take help, they resent the force. If you try to do it peacefully, they resent the handout and the implication that they can't take care of themselves.
It's a no-win situation.:-5
Major attack in Kabul.
Do you recall how the people of Iran had the Shah foisted on them by a Western-financed coup back in the fifties, and exploded like a powder keg twenty five years later as a direct reaction to the corrupt criminal Quislings the West had installed? It's easy to work out how long these national resentments last for, once a gross insult like that has happened. Iraq and Afghanistan are in exactly the same position now as the Iranians were then.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Major attack in Kabul.
Saint_;1283189 wrote: Great point, Spot. I once read that there is no way to help people outside of your own country, even if they need it desperately.
If you try to force them to take help, they resent the force. If you try to do it peacefully, they resent the handout and the implication that they can't take care of themselves.
And, whilst we're at it, I can't believe you've the gall to describe what the West is doing to Iraq and Afghanistan as "help". It's self-serving intervention by an overwhelmingly superior military power. Calling it "help" is propaganda. Regardless of what the people there need, the top thing on their priority list is self-determination. Providing regimes one doesn't like with a genuine external enemy is like handing out expensive birthday presents to their grateful leaderships, it destroys their national opposition for generations to come.
If you try to force them to take help, they resent the force. If you try to do it peacefully, they resent the handout and the implication that they can't take care of themselves.
And, whilst we're at it, I can't believe you've the gall to describe what the West is doing to Iraq and Afghanistan as "help". It's self-serving intervention by an overwhelmingly superior military power. Calling it "help" is propaganda. Regardless of what the people there need, the top thing on their priority list is self-determination. Providing regimes one doesn't like with a genuine external enemy is like handing out expensive birthday presents to their grateful leaderships, it destroys their national opposition for generations to come.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Major attack in Kabul.
spot;1283196 wrote: And, whilst we're at it, I can't believe you've the gall to describe what the West is doing to Iraq and Afghanistan as "help". It's self-serving intervention by an overwhelmingly superior military power. Calling it "help" is propaganda. Regardless of what the people there need, the top thing on their priority list is self-determination. Providing regimes one doesn't like with a genuine external enemy is like handing out expensive birthday presents to their grateful leaderships, it destroys their national opposition for generations to come.
lol. Ok, ok.... settle down. :wah:You don't think that adultery-stoning, head-chopping, art-destroying, terrorist-harboring barbarians need "help?" But I'll retract that in favor of "aid."
I know you're not going to deny that we've spent billions in their country.:rolleyes:
lol. Ok, ok.... settle down. :wah:You don't think that adultery-stoning, head-chopping, art-destroying, terrorist-harboring barbarians need "help?" But I'll retract that in favor of "aid."
I know you're not going to deny that we've spent billions in their country.:rolleyes:
Major attack in Kabul.
Scrat;1283218 wrote: Avoid the nukes, they are too destructive to the neighboring countries. You would have to set up concentration camps and extermination centers. Even then a lot of them would get away and carry on the fight.
True. It didn't work out for the Nazis, did it?
The only way out of this that I can see is withdrawal then a hunker down behind our defenses. We are much harder to hit that way. It is not as costly and many of our allies would be awakened from their lethargy as they would be reminded they are also targets in short order.
Did I just hear you argue for total isolationism? (See: Pearl Harbor, 9/11, and the Lusitania)
The whole thing people are missing is that this "terrorism" has always been with us, it always will be with us, until there are no humans left.
Terrorism - formerly known as "uprising" and "rebellion." I agree. After all, we used the exact same tactics to get rid of the British. (See: The American Revolutionary War)
All we can hope to do is minimize the threat. I think that hunkering down gives more options also. We can also get rid of this political correctness. One bomb goes off in the US every, and I mean EVERY Muslim leaves the country willingly, or at the point of a gun, or in a box.
HOLY CRAP! That's the most extreme I've ever seen you, Srat!:yh_nailbi
I'll have to call you on that one. Are you saying you'd penalize innocent American Muslims, even those whose families have been here for generations, even centuries, and have bravely fought for our country? What if the IRA bombs us? Are you ready to kick out all the Catholics?
C'mon, Scrat, there are hundreds of thousands of decent Americans who are Muslim, yet love America as much as you do! If you begin to discriminate against them, you become what you most feared... a terrorist.:-2
True. It didn't work out for the Nazis, did it?
The only way out of this that I can see is withdrawal then a hunker down behind our defenses. We are much harder to hit that way. It is not as costly and many of our allies would be awakened from their lethargy as they would be reminded they are also targets in short order.
Did I just hear you argue for total isolationism? (See: Pearl Harbor, 9/11, and the Lusitania)
The whole thing people are missing is that this "terrorism" has always been with us, it always will be with us, until there are no humans left.
Terrorism - formerly known as "uprising" and "rebellion." I agree. After all, we used the exact same tactics to get rid of the British. (See: The American Revolutionary War)
All we can hope to do is minimize the threat. I think that hunkering down gives more options also. We can also get rid of this political correctness. One bomb goes off in the US every, and I mean EVERY Muslim leaves the country willingly, or at the point of a gun, or in a box.
HOLY CRAP! That's the most extreme I've ever seen you, Srat!:yh_nailbi
I'll have to call you on that one. Are you saying you'd penalize innocent American Muslims, even those whose families have been here for generations, even centuries, and have bravely fought for our country? What if the IRA bombs us? Are you ready to kick out all the Catholics?
C'mon, Scrat, there are hundreds of thousands of decent Americans who are Muslim, yet love America as much as you do! If you begin to discriminate against them, you become what you most feared... a terrorist.:-2
Major attack in Kabul.
Saint_;1283226 wrote: lol. Ok, ok.... settle down. :wah:You don't think that adultery-stoning, head-chopping, art-destroying, terrorist-harboring barbarians need "help?" But I'll retract that in favor of "aid."
I know you're not going to deny that we've spent billions in their country.:rolleyes:
Every dollar spent in foreign aid is a dollar that destroys the livelihood of local traders. Emergency relief is a different matter, I'm talking about the subversion of local economies by pumping in materials that would otherwise be a source of income to the country's economy. Oh, and I'm not talking about the billions of dollars a year that prop up the current apartheid regime in Israel either - that's not aid, that's just self-serving politics.
As for the barbarians, as you call them, that's called culture. If you feel people are trapped behind their borders who don't like the system they've grown up in you've a simple solution - open your borders instead of rationing Green Cards. The ones who stay will be those who recognise the value their culture offers. In my opinion you'll find it's the majority. The world needs a multiplicity of distinct cultures, not a multiplicity of global fast food chains. Cultures are valuable.
I know you're not going to deny that we've spent billions in their country.:rolleyes:
Every dollar spent in foreign aid is a dollar that destroys the livelihood of local traders. Emergency relief is a different matter, I'm talking about the subversion of local economies by pumping in materials that would otherwise be a source of income to the country's economy. Oh, and I'm not talking about the billions of dollars a year that prop up the current apartheid regime in Israel either - that's not aid, that's just self-serving politics.
As for the barbarians, as you call them, that's called culture. If you feel people are trapped behind their borders who don't like the system they've grown up in you've a simple solution - open your borders instead of rationing Green Cards. The ones who stay will be those who recognise the value their culture offers. In my opinion you'll find it's the majority. The world needs a multiplicity of distinct cultures, not a multiplicity of global fast food chains. Cultures are valuable.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Major attack in Kabul.
spot;1283235 wrote:
As for the barbarians, as you call them, that's called culture.
Spot, I refuse to accept beheading or death by stoning as a part of my definition of "culture."(An integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for symbolic thought and social learning):p
As for the barbarians, as you call them, that's called culture.
Spot, I refuse to accept beheading or death by stoning as a part of my definition of "culture."(An integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for symbolic thought and social learning):p
Major attack in Kabul.
Saint_;1283237 wrote: Spot, I refuse to accept beheading or death by stoning as a part of my definition of "culture."(An integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for symbolic thought and social learning):p
You know what? I refuse to accept capital punishment as the act of any cultured society too. From where I sit there's not a lot of difference when it comes to technique. The fact of doing it seems a lot more important than the how. You might not see yourself as sat in a glass house throwing stones but I most certainly do.
You know what? I refuse to accept capital punishment as the act of any cultured society too. From where I sit there's not a lot of difference when it comes to technique. The fact of doing it seems a lot more important than the how. You might not see yourself as sat in a glass house throwing stones but I most certainly do.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Major attack in Kabul.
spot;1283245 wrote: You know what? I refuse to accept capital punishment as the act of any cultured society too. From where I sit there's not a lot of difference when it comes to technique. The fact of doing it seems a lot more important than the how. You might not see yourself as sat in a glass house throwing stones but I most certainly do.
Ouch. Well, in my defense, capital punishment is done as humanely as possible and is not nearly as painful as stoning.:-2
Ouch. Well, in my defense, capital punishment is done as humanely as possible and is not nearly as painful as stoning.:-2
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Major attack in Kabul.
Is there anyone here who thinks there's ever been an occasion when an occupation by foreign troops was popular with the majority of the local citizens?
Well, the US troops here seemed ok. Air Force mostly. Don't recall demonstrations against them until we got the Greenham Peace Camp (and that was arguably a minority viewpoint) and certainly nothing in my bit of the East Midlands. The Yanks were just part of the scenery.
If you try to force them to take help, they resent the force. If you try to do it peacefully, they resent the handout and the implication that they can't take care of themselves.
Well, it took Churchill and Roosevelt a couple of years and Pearl Harbor to drag you into WW2. And there's considerable suspicion that had Hitler not declared war on the USA you'd have stayed in the Pacific and not got involved in Europe at all. We only finished paying for Lend-Lease a few years ago (2007, I think) and Roosevelt sucked us dry of gold before you entered the War. But what really annoys about all of that is the way the British get written out of the war - a recent film about how the Americans broke the Enigma code is a classic example, or American accounts of the Normandy campaign or Okinawa.
But at the same time, we are well aware that without US intervention in the end we'd almost certainly have gone under or had to make a compromise peace. Either would have been dreadful for us and led to a direct threat to the USA...
Well, the US troops here seemed ok. Air Force mostly. Don't recall demonstrations against them until we got the Greenham Peace Camp (and that was arguably a minority viewpoint) and certainly nothing in my bit of the East Midlands. The Yanks were just part of the scenery.
If you try to force them to take help, they resent the force. If you try to do it peacefully, they resent the handout and the implication that they can't take care of themselves.
Well, it took Churchill and Roosevelt a couple of years and Pearl Harbor to drag you into WW2. And there's considerable suspicion that had Hitler not declared war on the USA you'd have stayed in the Pacific and not got involved in Europe at all. We only finished paying for Lend-Lease a few years ago (2007, I think) and Roosevelt sucked us dry of gold before you entered the War. But what really annoys about all of that is the way the British get written out of the war - a recent film about how the Americans broke the Enigma code is a classic example, or American accounts of the Normandy campaign or Okinawa.
But at the same time, we are well aware that without US intervention in the end we'd almost certainly have gone under or had to make a compromise peace. Either would have been dreadful for us and led to a direct threat to the USA...
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Major attack in Kabul.
Saint_;1283271 wrote: Ouch. Well, in my defense, capital punishment is done as humanely as possible and is not nearly as painful as stoning.:-2
Perhaps the decade or two sitting on Death Row beforehand watching execution dates come and go has a significant element of mental torture to it, as a counterweight. They get these things over with quickly in more considerate societies.
I've no problem with Americans choosing, if they wish, to execute criminals (though I think it's unethical). It's an ingrained part of the culture of some American States. Those citizens who can permanently escape to less dogmatic countries are the fortunate ones, most don't have that option these days. I suspect that if we all adopted open borders there would be more of an outflow.
Perhaps the decade or two sitting on Death Row beforehand watching execution dates come and go has a significant element of mental torture to it, as a counterweight. They get these things over with quickly in more considerate societies.
I've no problem with Americans choosing, if they wish, to execute criminals (though I think it's unethical). It's an ingrained part of the culture of some American States. Those citizens who can permanently escape to less dogmatic countries are the fortunate ones, most don't have that option these days. I suspect that if we all adopted open borders there would be more of an outflow.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Major attack in Kabul.
spot;1283188 wrote: A free and fair election in Afghanistan, the day one's allowed, will return a Taliban majority. Just as a free and fair election in Iraq, the day one's allowed, will return the anti-Western Ba'athists to power. The current Iraqi election bias is due overwhelmingly to 500 Sunni candidates having just been barred from standing. As a footnote, an Iraqi court just lifted the ban in order to reduce tensions but they don't mince words when it comes to consequences..."The appeal court will look at their file after the election," and if they find them to have links to Saddam's outlawed Baath party, "they will be eliminated", she said.
Al Jazeera English - Middle East - Iraq court suspends candidate ban
Al Jazeera English - Middle East - Iraq court suspends candidate ban
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.