Stoning Would Have Been Better

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:22 am

This very naughty 13 year old Saudi girl got off too easy in my opinion and stoning or 20 years in solitary would have been more appropriate punishment.

Saudi girl, 13, sentenced to 90 lashes after she took a mobile phone to school | Mail Online

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:38 am

And do floggings, beheadings, crucifixions and mutilations deter crime? Not noticeably. Capital punishment fans please note.

Religious barbarism.

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:40 am

I am sure Mohamed is pleased, at least she has her head covered anyway..

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:04 am

ruthless bunch of ***holes!:mad:

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:09 am

Clodhopper;1283727 wrote: Religious barbarism.Why do you guy's think religious people stand for this type of treatment of their children, even encourage it in many cases?

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:45 am

Ahso!;1283737 wrote: Why do you guy's think religious people stand for this type of treatment of their children, even encourage it in many cases?

They do it in the name of religion. The lashing is endured for the higher cause.

Plus its an effective way to keep the bastards in line.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:49 am

Nomad;1283745 wrote: They do it in the name of religion. The lashing is endured for the higher cause.

Plus its an effective way to keep the bastards in line.Whats the higher cause?

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:52 am

Ahso!;1283748 wrote: Whats the higher cause?

Their religion. And scaring the crap out of people so they can be controlled and not disrupt the system.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:55 am

Nomad;1283749 wrote: Their religion. And scaring the crap out of people so they can be controlled and not disrupt the system.Sounds circular.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:02 am

Sounds antiquated and inhumane. Its a brain wash.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:03 am

Nomad;1283755 wrote: Sounds antiquated and inhumane. Its a brain wash.What isn't?

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:09 am

Ahso!;1283737 wrote: Why do you guy's think religious people stand for this type of treatment of their children, even encourage it in many cases?

Because they are sexually and socially repressed due to their interpretation of religious scripture.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:11 am

Lon;1283760 wrote: Because they are sexually and socially repressed due to their interpretation of religious scripture.Sounds Freudian.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:15 am

Lon;1283760 wrote: Because they are sexually and socially repressed due to their interpretation of religious scripture.

And they live in fear. Fear is a highly effective tool in getting people to conform. So Damn Insane was a master at it.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:33 am

They can leave. Why do you think they decide to stay and live under such harsh conditions?

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:34 am

Why do you guy's think religious people stand for this type of treatment of their children, even encourage it in many cases?

Many reasons. Several of them expressed here already.

Some really believe they are obeying God's law. Some use it to maintain their personal power. For very many it is the only law they have ever known. And of course - almost always - it happens to someone else's child.

I'd be surprised if it happened to the children of the powerful.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:09 am

Ahso!;1283771 wrote: They can leave. Why do you think they decide to stay and live under such harsh conditions?

Leave?--Where to? Thats all they have known and have not been exposed to anything else. Leave family? Can they afford to leave?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:29 am

Lon;1283790 wrote: Leave?--Where to? Thats all they have known and have not been exposed to anything else. Leave family? Can they afford to leave?Are you telling me that if you had been born into that society that you would stay?

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:36 am

Ahso!;1283798 wrote: Are you telling me that if you had been born into that society that you would stay?

No---------what I am saying is that some have no choice but to stay. Some can not afford to just up and leave. You need a passport to leave a country and go to another. You just can't walk across the border (except from Mexico:wah:) Some just can't bear to leave their families. Also, it takes $$$$ to up and leave. Surely you know this.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:44 am

Lon;1283803 wrote: No---------what I am saying is that some have no choice but to stay. Some can not afford to just up and leave. You need a passport to leave a country and go to another. You just can't walk across the border (except from Mexico:wah:) Some just can't bear to leave their families. Also, it takes $$$$ to up and leave. Surely you know this.So any of those things would stop you from leaving? You seem to be making the argument of battered wife syndrome? BTW - I think there are porous boarders everywhere, not just here.

It's easy to leave for those who want to, we see it happen all the time on the news. So why do they stay?

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:47 am

Ignorant savages. This is where Spot would say, "It's their culture." I'm not buying that. Brutal torture cannot be a part of any civilized society.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:54 am

Saint_;1283811 wrote: Ignorant savages. This is where Spot would say, "It's their culture." I'm not buying that. Brutal torture cannot be a part of any civilized society.Spot hasn't said a word in this thread, but it is true that the behavior and beliefs are cultural. I think Spot realizes the conversation is beyond the cultural aspect. Anything substantive to add?

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:58 am

Ahso!;1283808 wrote: So any of those things would stop you from leaving? You seem to be making the argument of battered wife syndrome? BTW - I think there are porous boarders everywhere, not just here.

It's easy to leave for those who want to, we see it happen all the time on the news. So why do they stay?

I give up. Is one of us a bit thick?

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:59 am

Yes, Spot has not replied which is strange since this parallels the other recent thread on cultures. Strange, but I'll wait to see what he has to say about it.

He defended the destruction of ancient art treasures by the Taliban as "culture," but I can't see how he could defend this. Say, didn't someone in this thread defend beheading and stoning in that other thread?

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:00 pm

Lon;1283819 wrote: I give up. Is one of us a bit thick?

It's just foggy today...

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:00 pm

Brutal torture has been a part of every ancient civilisation, I think. Not sure about the Greeks, but the Romans certainly. Ancient Chinese definitely. And those societies have generally approved of it. Executions of the most revolting sorts were public entertainment in this country. And the Heads on pikes at the entrance to London said "There is LAW here" to an uneducated population. There seems to be a bloody side to human nature that likes to see justice of the most retributive sort.We didn't start to get over it until roughly the late C18th. A function of the Enlightenment, perhaps, like the end of slavery...

I'm not really reaching any conclusions here. Just thinking out loud.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:03 pm

Lon;1283819 wrote: I give up. Is one of us a bit thick?Dis agreement doesn't have to mean that someone is thick. If one of us I'm sure I'd win the being thick prize hands down as I think a majority agree with you. Both you and Nomad have been stressing the cultural aspect of this and I think theres more to it. Thats all.

Don't give up so easily. Put yourself in the shoes of the parents and ask yourself what you would do in their place and why. Surely they are not stupid and love their child as much as you love yours, no?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:05 pm

Saint_;1283820 wrote: Yes, Spot has not replied which is strange since this parallels the other recent thread on cultures. Strange, but I'll wait to see what he has to say about it.

He defended the destruction of ancient art treasures by the Taliban as "culture," but I can't see how he could defend this. Say, didn't someone in this thread defend beheading and stoning in that other thread?This thread is not about Spot. Leave the man out of it.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:32 pm

Ahso!;1283808 wrote: So any of those things would stop you from leaving? You seem to be making the argument of battered wife syndrome? BTW - I think there are porous boarders everywhere, not just here.

It's easy to leave for those who want to, we see it happen all the time on the news. So why do they stay?

Are you seriously suggesting that a saudi woman has a choice about whether she stays in that country or not and that she must like it if she stays? Where would she go? How about a sixteen year old american-how easy would it be for them to get to another country and settle there without a passport, no skills and no money? You are used to the idea you are free to do as you wish and work where you want-that kind of freedom and belief in it is still a rare thing in many countries.

It's a religious court that lays down the law. Just be glad you live in a secular country because a biblical system of justice would be pretty hard to stomach.

Even so until 2005 the US was the only country in the world that reserved the right to execute children under the age of eighteen. Only seven countries besides the U.S. have executed juvenile offenders since 1990: Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Nigeria, the Democratic Republic of Congo, and China.

OK at least you don't flog people any more but I bet you somewhere someone wants to bring it back.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:36 pm

gmc;1283835 wrote: Are you seriously suggesting that a saudi woman has a choice about whether she stays in that country or not and that she must like it if she stays? How about a sixteen year old american-how easy would it be for them to get to another country and settle there without a passport, no skills and no money?

It's a religious court that lays down the law. Just be glad you live in a secular country because a biblical system of justice would be pretty hard to stomach.

Even so until 2005 the US was the only country in the world that reserved the right to execute children under the age of eighteen. Only seven countries besides the U.S. have executed juvenile offenders since 1990: Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Nigeria, the Democratic Republic of Congo, and China.

So why do you put up with a regime like that?You do have to weigh the differences in the laws themselves and decide whether or not you're willing to live with them.

Lets take the focus off the mother and put it on the father then. Why does he subject his family to such brutal legal consequences?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:27 pm

Ahso!;1283837 wrote: You do have to weigh the differences in the laws themselves and decide whether or not you're willing to live with them.

Lets take the focus off the mother and put it on the father then. Why does he subject his family to such brutal legal consequences?

What choice does he have? Can you choose not to be subject to the law where you were born and live? Besides maybe he believes the court is just and the verdict guided by god. When it comes to religion why would you expect reason to come in to it?

You might protest and in your and my country we would have a right of appeal and take for granted our right to do so but the road to that liberty is washed with an awful lot of bloodshed. There are plenty Christians of a similar disposition who if given half a chance would be as bad and you can easily find plenty of examples when they have been.

YouTube - Saudi Woman Sentenced To Lashing

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:31 pm

gmc;1283860 wrote: What choice does he have? Can you choose not to be subject to the law where you were born and live? Besides maybe he believes the court is just and the verdict guided by god. When it comes to religion why would you expect reason to come in to it?

You might protest and in your and my country we would have a right of appeal and take for granted our right to do so but the road to that liberty is washed with an awful lot of bloodshed. There are plenty Christians of a similar disposition who if given half a chance would be as bad and you can easily find plenty of examples when they have been.

YouTube - Saudi Woman Sentenced To LashingPerhaps you missed the first part of my post. I'd weigh all the options and make a decision.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:58 pm

Ahso!;1283864 wrote: Perhaps you missed the first part of my post. I'd weigh all the options and make a decision.

I didn't. My question still applies-what choice do you think he actually had in the matter-assuming he disagreed with the verdict in the first place. Can you as an american choose not to accept punishment meted out by one of your courts even if you think it unjust? What would happen to you if you refuse or decide top try and escape justice? Who does he appeal to? what can he do to change it in a country where democracy is a peculiar western concept and religious law is supreme?

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:58 pm

I think the bit that's missing here is that for the people in the countries involved, this sort of justice is normal, unremarkable and barely worth commenting on. It is what they are used to. Why would they flee it? Also, what percentage of people in these countries receive these sorts of sentence? My guess would be much less than 1% (but that is a guess).

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:01 pm

gmc;1283923 wrote: I didn't. My question still applies-what choice do you think he actually had in the matter-assuming he disagreed with the verdict in the first place. Can you as an american choose not to accept punishment meted out by one of your courts even if you think it unjust? What would happen to you if you refuse or decide top try and escape justice? Who does he appeal to? what can he do to change it in a country where democracy is a peculiar western concept and religious law is supreme?I'm not talking post verdict, at that point you're screwed. My question is why live there to begin with.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:47 pm

Clodhopper;1283727 wrote: And do floggings, beheadings, crucifixions and mutilations deter crime? Not noticeably. Capital punishment fans please note.

Religious barbarism.

Oh yes crime is detured when the criminal is 6 feet under.....

So yes I would call that a deterent of some sort.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:01 pm

BTS: Can you show me that crime rates are lower in states with capital punishment?

Ahso: Just thought of a comparison that might be relevant to the question of why people stay in countries with this sort of Law, knowing what might happen to them and their family: California and the certainty of The Big One. Californians KNOW they face this peril, but it doesn't make them move away from the certainty of disaster. So why would people in Saudi flee the remote possibility of a flogging? Human nature always knows it won't happen to them.:rolleyes:

It's also why capital punishment does not deter.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:44 pm

Ahso!;1283808 wrote: So any of those things would stop you from leaving? You seem to be making the argument of battered wife syndrome? BTW - I think there are porous boarders everywhere, not just here.

It's easy to leave for those who want to, we see it happen all the time on the news. So why do they stay?

There is no argument----I stated a very valid fact why SOME choose to stay. Because some have left does not change the reason why some stay.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:26 pm

Do you think it could be said: the more strict the rules the more disciplined the people of that culture? Could an argument of higher integrity be made?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:35 pm

Thanks for this great thread, Lon.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:45 pm

Ahso!;1283990 wrote: Do you think it could be said: the more strict the rules the more disciplined the people of that culture? Could an argument of higher integrity be made?

More cowed than disciplined and a cowed individual is not likely to have a higher degree of integrity.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:12 pm

Lon;1283994 wrote: More cowed than disciplined and a cowed individual is not likely to have a higher degree of integrity.Thats what you and I might say, but whats important to them is what they say and think.

Here in America we hold similar values in our culture. We cause our doctors to do ridiculous shifts to prove their something or other. Our schools, sports and especially our military forces those who volunteer to participate to live very strict regiments.

In the end, whats gained? I think its recognition for the sacrifice people are willing to make to be a part of the group. If a family is willing to submit themselves and especially their children to such strict rules they must be deserving of the praise of their peers. I wonder if the parent of a disciplined child such as this can actually view the scares she will wear for the rest of her life as a badge of honor like fighters or football players do here. Many of the people of these societies are willing to strap bombs to themselves in numbers, while we give out the "medal of honor" to the occasional guy who throws himself on a grenade. Not even close in my view.

I think they stay because they want to be counted worthy like any participant of any tough discipline. In America its shameful to be out of work and accept help. We've gone so far as to completely destroy the word "welfare". Even to a liberal person such as myself it sounds demeaning.

There are some similarities between the cultures but I personally don't think we're as tough as them. That could be a good thing or a bad thing.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:46 pm

Clodhopper;1283970 wrote: BTS: Can you show me that crime rates are lower in states with capital punishment?

Ahso: Just thought of a comparison that might be relevant to the question of why people stay in countries with this sort of Law, knowing what might happen to them and their family: California and the certainty of The Big One. Californians KNOW they face this peril, but it doesn't make them move away from the certainty of disaster. So why would people in Saudi flee the remote possibility of a flogging? Human nature always knows it won't happen to them.:rolleyes:

It's also why capital punishment does not deter.

You know this is about the same as the gun control debate. Everybody has their graphs etc... to show how just "RIGHT" they are. We quote that study and they quote that study.

I think it comes down to morals. If you have a morally bankrupt society it does not matter what the laws are....

So I'll show you mine from the WSJ and you show me yours:

Capital Punishment Works - WSJ.com

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:03 am

Ahso!;1283927 wrote: I'm not talking post verdict, at that point you're screwed. My question is why live there to begin with.

If you're born and brought up there steeped in that culture and have family just leaving is not that simple, especially if you happen to be a female saudi. It's not a free society. Where would you go what would you do for a living?

You have been brought up with the belief that you are free to live your life as you choose and you live in a liberal democracy where such things are enshrined in your constitution and liberal values taken for granted yet even so it's hard for someone brought up as, for example, say a fundamentalist christian, to walk away from their family and reject their values. Imagine of you hadn't been brought up to take freedom for granted.

posted by ahso

Here in America we hold similar values in our culture. We cause our doctors to do ridiculous shifts to prove their something or other. Our schools, sports and especially our military forces those who volunteer to participate to live very strict regiments.

The difference is you have a choice-it's unlikely you would accept such a regime unless you see a purpose in it and I would have thought you are even less likely to accept that someone has the right to flog your child and how likely are you to accept the judgement of a religious court? Most people around you probably feel the same way but there are those who want religion and religious doctrine enshrined in law and imposed on even those who don't share that belief system-it so happens in the states they have lost the argument as they did in europe except you escaped much of the blood-letting in the states . In the middle east they are just getting round to having it

There are some similarities between the cultures but I personally don't think we're as tough as them. That could be a good thing or a bad thing.

That's a mistake-many people seem to assume that those who believe you should be free and tolerant of others who are different (be they different race, religion or sexual orientation) from them are weak and have no moral values. The reality is very different they are the most aggressive people on the planet when the need arises and they never ever give up. As a cultural group we are phenomenally warlike forged in the fires of war, just take a cursory look at our history-or even your own. Well that's what I think anyway. peace loving is not the same as pushover.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:29 am

So I'll show you mine from the WSJ and you show me yours:

The deterrent effect of the death penalty - Statistical Modeling, Causal Inference, and Social Science

Pretty heavy stuff, but covers a few at least of the recent studies.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:05 am

Ahso!Thats what you and I might say, but whats important to them is what they say and think.

They have a say? Youre implying they have a voice. How?

Fair elections?

Council meetings open to the public?

My thought is they comply because they must comply.

Many of the people of these societies are willing to strap bombs to themselves in numbers, while we give out the "medal of honor" to the occasional guy who throws himself on a grenade. Not even close in my view.

Wow!

What was it, 90 lashes? You are suggesting that she will grow into the notion that the scars can be worn as a badge of courage. I suggest otherwise. Her scars will instill an awesome fear and mistrust. No human much less a young girl should endure such an abhorrent, repugnant and utterly brutal punishment for such a minor infraction of the rules. Given this were your own daughter would you encourage her to consider her torture as a so called badge of courage?

I think they stay because....

People stay and endure because their home is all they know. Where would they go? Theyve been taught all their lives the West is evil. Few do come but 9/11 changed everything. Some may have had a dream but were mis-trustful of them now. Their own people destroyed any chance they may have had of making a successful exit.

There are some similarities between the cultures but I personally don't think we're as tough as them. That could be a good thing or a bad thing.

Honestly I dont even understand what youre saying here. Are you suggesting it might be beneficial to introduce lashings in our schools?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:10 am

Nomad;1284166 wrote: They have a say? Youre implying they have a voice. How?

Fair elections?

Council meetings open to the public?

My thought is they comply because they must comply.

Wow!

What was it, 90 lashes? You are suggesting that she will grow into the notion that the scars can be worn as a badge of courage. I suggest otherwise. Her scars will instill an awesome fear and mistrust. No human much less a young girl should endure such an abhorrent, repugnant and utterly brutal punishment for such a minor infraction of the rules. Given this were your own daughter would you encourage her to consider her torture as a so called badge of courage?

People stay and endure because their home is all they know. Where would they go? Theyve been taught all their lives the West is evil. Few do come but 9/11 changed everything. Some may have had a dream but were mis-trustful of them now. Their own people destroyed any chance they may have had of making a successful exit.

Honestly I dont even understand what youre saying here. Are you suggesting it might be beneficial to introduce lashings in our schools?I realize you don't understand. So be it.

You seem to be making a case for justification of invading the country in order to save the innocent. Are you?

What in the world makes you think that people in that part of the world don't have the same abilities as you do. They are not stupid and they love their children as much as we love ours.

Beginning to become circular.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:18 am

Ahso!;1284168 wrote: I realize you don't understand. So be it.

You seem to be making a case for justification of invading the country in order to save the innocent. Are you?

What in the world makes you think that people in that part of the world don't have the same abilities as you do. They are not stupid and they love their children as much as we love ours.

Beginning to become circular.

Im not suggesting they dont love their children or dont have a sense of family.

Theres a bigger picture at hand than the family unit.

The family is constrained by societal influences.

They are not free as human beings should be to create the family environment as they see fit.

They are mandated by by governing properties.

The father that loves his daughter but must behead her because she came home pregnant is doing so out of shame. The love he feels for her is shadowed by influences by his peers.

Now tell me is that how love is defined?

And please dont put words in my mouth.

Ive never advocated invading anyones country.

You think you know something about the way I think and feel but youre way off base.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:25 am

Nomad;1284173 wrote: Im not suggesting they dont love their children or dont have a sense of family.

Theres a bigger picture at hand than the family unit.

The family is constrained by societal influences.

They are not free as human beings should be to create the family environment as they see fit.

They are mandated by by governing properties.

The father that loves his daughter but must behead her because she came home pregnant is doing so out of shame. The love he feels for her is shadowed by influences by his peers.

Now tell me is that how love is defined?

And please dont put words in my mouth.

Ive never advocated invading anyones country.

You think you know something about the way I think and feel but youre way off base.I don't know and cannot vouch for what you assert regarding laws in those countries, perhaps someone else can. But obviously, the father you mention as an individual, must believe he loves his children or he is deranged. I can't make that call from here, but I do understand the power of myth and group selection.

Not my country and not my culture, but they have the freedom to choose otherwise and don't for some reason. In some cases you're probably correct, but not all, or even the majority, in my view.