Shocking Arctic Climate Data

[BTS]

The Arctic ocean is warming up, icebergs are growing scarcer and in some places the seals are finding the water too hot, according to a report to the Commerce Department yesterday from Consul Ifft, at Bergen, Norway.



Reports from fishermen, seal hunters and explorers, he declared, all point to a radical change in climate conditions and hitherto unheard-of temperatures in the Arctic zone.



Exploration expeditions report that scarcely any ice has been met with as far north as 81 degrees 29 minutes. Soundings to a depth of 3,100 meters showed the gulf stream still very warm. Great masses of ice have been replaced by moraines of earth and stones, the report continued, while at many points well known glaciers have entirely disappeared.



Very few seals and no white fish are found in the eastern Arctic, while vast shoals of herring and smelts, which have never before ventured so far north, are being encountered in the old seal fishing grounds.













:-2









:-3

I'm sorry, I neglected to mention that this report was from November 2, 1922 as reported by the AP and published in The Washington Post.



Those who read history develop a rich perspective of our changing climate; those who divine tree rings see climate through a narrow prism!

[Ahso!]

Heres some more pretty stupid stuff thats been way off too.



Hebrews, chapter 1



"1": God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

"2": Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

"3": Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

"4": Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

"5": For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

"6": And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

"7": And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

"8": But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

"9": Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

"10": And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

"11": They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

"12": And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

"13": But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

"14": Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

[mikeinie]

Ahso!;1284092 wrote: Heres some more pretty stupid stuff thats been way off too.


And this has got to do with climate change because......????????????:-2

[G#Gill]

BTS

I'm sorry, I neglected to mention that this report was from November 2, 1922 as reported by the AP and published in The Washington Post



Those who read history develop a rich perspective of our changing climate; those who divine tree rings see climate through a narrow prism!




What are you trying to tell people ? That climate change has always been an ongoing activity ? If that is the case, then I agree with you. Over time it can be seen that the earth's climate fluctuates, and it has been happening since creatures crawled from the sea and developed!

[Ahso!]

mikeinie;1284096 wrote: And this has got to do with climate change because......????????????:-2verses 10 and 11. I know it seems weak but I took the thread to be about data accuracy from a historical perspective and not climate change itself.

[Bryn Mawr]

BTS;1284012 wrote: The Arctic ocean is warming up, icebergs are growing scarcer and in some places the seals are finding the water too hot, according to a report to the Commerce Department yesterday from Consul Ifft, at Bergen, Norway.



Reports from fishermen, seal hunters and explorers, he declared, all point to a radical change in climate conditions and hitherto unheard-of temperatures in the Arctic zone.



Exploration expeditions report that scarcely any ice has been met with as far north as 81 degrees 29 minutes. Soundings to a depth of 3,100 meters showed the gulf stream still very warm. Great masses of ice have been replaced by moraines of earth and stones, the report continued, while at many points well known glaciers have entirely disappeared.



Very few seals and no white fish are found in the eastern Arctic, while vast shoals of herring and smelts, which have never before ventured so far north, are being encountered in the old seal fishing grounds.













:-2









:-3

I'm sorry, I neglected to mention that this report was from November 2, 1922 as reported by the AP and published in The Washington Post.



Those who read history develop a rich perspective of our changing climate; those who divine tree rings see climate through a narrow prism!


Thank you so much for finding this and proving the case for climate change so conclusively.

That in 1922 they were so shocked that there was no ice as far north as 81o 29' graphically illustrates how much worse the situation is now when you can go hundreds of miles further north before encountering ice.

81-29 was unprecedented melting then, it would be a cause for celebration today.

[BTS]

Bryn Mawr;1284194 wrote: Thank you so much for finding this and proving the case for climate change so conclusively.



That in 1922 they were so shocked that there was no ice as far north as 81o 29' graphically illustrates how much worse the situation is now when you can go hundreds of miles further north before encountering ice.



81-29 was unprecedented melting then, it would be a cause for celebration today.


Awww Bryn,

Mother nature is a tricky character....



Over the past 20 years, southern sea ice has expanded, in contrast to the Arctic's decline, and researchers want to understand why. Many climate-model experiments show the Arctic responding more rapidly than Antarctica as global warming kicks in. But after looking at the latest projections from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, "Arctic sea ice is well ahead of the models, and Antarctic sea ice is well behind what the models project," says Stephen Ackley, a polar scientist at the University of Texas, San Antonio.

[BTS]

What happened to global warming?



This headline may come as a bit of a surprise, so too might the fact that the warmest year recorded globally was not in 2008 or 2007, but in 1998.

But it is true. For the last 11 years we have not observed any increase in global temperatures.

And our climate models did not forecast it, even though man-made carbon dioxide, the gas thought to be responsible for warming our planet, has continued to rise. So what on Earth is going on?

[Ahso!]

BTS;1284227 wrote: What happened to global warming?



This headline may come as a bit of a surprise, so too might the fact that the warmest year recorded globally was not in 2008 or 2007, but in 1998.

But it is true. For the last 11 years we have not observed any increase in global temperatures.

And our climate models did not forecast it, even though man-made carbon dioxide, the gas thought to be responsible for warming our planet, has continued to rise. So what on Earth is going on?Too many conservative blow hards? You tell us, BTS, the floor is yours.

[Clodhopper]

It may be something to do with the collapse of the Antarctic Ice shelfs. Might that not mean the exposed water where the shelf used to be will freeze quickly as winter sets in, being much further south than the previous open water?

That might give figures showing a greater rate of sea ice expansion, because we now have to include in those figures areas of open water that used to be under permanent ice.

The Landsat Program - News

[Odie]

I've know about the seals for years, now read up on our polar bears.:-1



Polar bears starving, drowning and resorting to cannibalism as Artic ice melts

By Chris V. Thangham.

Sep 24, 2008 by ■ Chris V. Thangham

With the Arctic ice receding, polar bears are starving, drowning, and even resorting to cannibalism as a result of the lack of access to their normal food sources.

Researchers say bears and other animals are struggling with the loss of Arctic ice, adding it will impact other parts of the world by affecting storm systems, storm tracks and crops.

Currently, researchers are analyzing the Arctic ice and finding the data very chilling. Walt Meier, a research scientist with the National Snow and Ice Data Center in Boulder, Colorado told CNN:

"It's definitely a bad report. We did pick up little bit from last year, but this is over 30 percent below what used to be normal."

Arctic ice thickens and spreads during autumn and winter seasons, and shrinks in the spring and summer. But this past summer, the Arctic ice dwindled to its second lowest level in 50 years of monitoring. The Arctic is losing its ice cover at a rate of 10 per cent per decade, and experts believe there will eventually be a time where ice will completely melt in the summer.

Problems as a result of this trend are not isolated in the Arctic, either; Arctic ice helps regulate and temper the climate in many other parts of the world. The sheets of ice reflect solar radiation and keep the Earth cool. With the loss of ice, water absorbs heat and will make the planet warmer. It may also affect rain in other parts of the world, including less rain in the Western United States and more rain in Europe.

Meier told CNN:

"That warming is going to spread to the lower latitudes, to the United States, and it's going to affect storm systems and storm tracks, the jet stream; that's going to affect crops and all sorts of things."

About 30 years ago, there were seven million square kilometers (2.5 million miles) of ice at the end of Arctic summer, whereas now the ice cover has dropped 40 per cent.

The polar bears are the biggest sufferers in this ice loss; they live entirely on Arctic ice and are dependent on it. With the loss of ice, bears are left starving, some drown, and some were found to be resorting to cannibalism because of a lack of other natural food sources. Scientists have actually found starving Arctic polar bears attacking and feeding on one another. In one incident in 2004, a male bear broke into a female’s den and killed her.

[FUBAR]

Does it really matter if people are responsible or not? The climate will change and polar bears probably will become extinct. If it happens now or in 10,000 years it is going to happen no matter what we do. We cannot stop the climate changing and we do not have the right to do so, evolution is driven by change and challenge not by any man made false stability. We should be concentrating on our species survival or we will become extinct as well. We cannot protect everything from everything else and life will go on even when the climate does change. So we conquer climate change and the world stays the same forever more, what about meteor strikes,super volcanoes continental drift etc. Things happen, after all 99.9% of all the species that have ever existed are not here any more. it's adapt or die not keep things as they are for ever..........

[Odie]

FUBAR;1284391 wrote: Does it really matter if people are responsible or not? The climate will change and polar bears probably will become extinct. If it happens now or in 10,000 years it is going to happen no matter what we do. We cannot stop the climate changing and we do not have the right to do so, evolution is driven by change and challenge not by any man made false stability. We should be concentrating on our species survival or we will become extinct as well. We cannot protect everything from everything else and life will go on even when the climate does change. So we conquer climate change and the world stays the same forever more, what about meteor strikes,super volcanoes continental drift etc. Things happen, after all 99.9% of all the species that have ever existed are not here any more. it's adapt or die not keep things as they are for ever..........


some climate change has to do with humans.

some just don't care to do what will help.

[Bryn Mawr]

BTS;1284223 wrote: Awww Bryn,

Mother nature is a tricky character....



Over the past 20 years, southern sea ice has expanded, in contrast to the Arctic's decline, and researchers want to understand why. Many climate-model experiments show the Arctic responding more rapidly than Antarctica as global warming kicks in. But after looking at the latest projections from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, "Arctic sea ice is well ahead of the models, and Antarctic sea ice is well behind what the models project," says Stephen Ackley, a polar scientist at the University of Texas, San Antonio.


Then why start up about the state of the arctic - and why not answer the point I raised rather than just changing the subject?

[Bryn Mawr]

BTS;1284227 wrote: What happened to global warming?



This headline may come as a bit of a surprise, so too might the fact that the warmest year recorded globally was not in 2008 or 2007, but in 1998.

But it is true. For the last 11 years we have not observed any increase in global temperatures.

And our climate models did not forecast it, even though man-made carbon dioxide, the gas thought to be responsible for warming our planet, has continued to rise. So what on Earth is going on?


I seem to recall asking you for some reliable evidence of this claim - no evidence forthcoming but you continue to repeat the claim.

I thought that this section from the link you gave made some very good points :-



The UK Met Office's Hadley Centre, responsible for future climate predictions, says it incorporates solar variation and ocean cycles into its climate models, and that they are nothing new.



In fact, the centre says they are just two of the whole host of known factors that influence global temperatures - all of which are accounted for by its models.



In addition, say Met Office scientists, temperatures have never increased in a straight line, and there will always be periods of slower warming, or even temporary cooling.



What is crucial, they say, is the long-term trend in global temperatures. And that, according to the Met office data, is clearly up.

[Bryn Mawr]

FUBAR;1284391 wrote: Does it really matter if people are responsible or not? The climate will change and polar bears probably will become extinct. If it happens now or in 10,000 years it is going to happen no matter what we do. We cannot stop the climate changing and we do not have the right to do so, evolution is driven by change and challenge not by any man made false stability. We should be concentrating on our species survival or we will become extinct as well. We cannot protect everything from everything else and life will go on even when the climate does change. So we conquer climate change and the world stays the same forever more, what about meteor strikes,super volcanoes continental drift etc. Things happen, after all 99.9% of all the species that have ever existed are not here any more. it's adapt or die not keep things as they are for ever..........


Of course it matters whether people are responsible in any substantial way for the warming - it is central to how we respond to it.

And where has anyone suggested that we try to force the climate to be static forever more - it is setting up a bogey so you can knock it down. Can we please stick to real issues rather than play games.

[BTS]

Bryn Mawr;1285010 wrote: Then why start up about the state of the arctic - and why not answer the point I raised rather than just changing the subject?


Your point is moot unless you can explain why on one side of the earth ice is melting (as you point out and I agree with) while on the other side it is expanding.

Splain that? Why on earth aren't both poles shrinking with ALL the toxin we pour into the atmosphere?



I believe it is just "WEATHER" not "Climate Change" or as it use to be called "Global Warming"

(Remember up to a few years ago that was what it was called but when we quit warming it was conveniently changed to "Climate Change")

(See Alinsky's Rules for Radicals)

7. "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag. Man can sustain militant interest in any issue for only a limited time...."

[Saint_]

BTS is a "Climate Change Denier." It's similar to a 'Holocaust Denier" but applies to someone without a grasp of fundamental science and data analysis.:p An analogy would be someone who sits in a burning house and yells through the smoke, "It's just a bad day for smog!!":-3

The problem? The rest of us are in the house too and this dangerous denial might make the less informed people liable to delay any chance we have to save ourselves. Totally irresponsible, if you ask me.

[BTS]

Saint_;1285312 wrote: BTS is a "Climate Change Denier." It's similar to a 'Holocaust Denier" but applies to someone without a grasp of fundamental science and data analysis.:p An analogy would be someone who sits in a burning house and yells through the smoke, "It's just a bad day for smog!!":-3



The problem? The rest of us are in the house too and this dangerous denial might make the less informed people liable to delay any chance we have to save ourselves. Totally irresponsible, if you ask me.


:driving:Ever hear the one about the "little boy" who called "WOLF???":driving:

[BTS]

Bryn Mawr;1285015 wrote: Of course it matters whether people are responsible in any substantial way for the warming - it is central to how we respond to it.



And where has anyone suggested that we try to force the climate to be static forever more - it is setting up a bogey so you can knock it down. Can we please stick to real issues rather than play games.


OK..."real issues"

I ask:

Are people responsible in any substantial way for the warming? :-3

[Bryn Mawr]

BTS;1285623 wrote: OK..."real issues"

I ask:

Are people responsible in any substantial way for the warming? :-3


I believe so, yes.

Next.

[Saint_]

BTS;1285622 wrote: :driving:Ever hear the one about the "little boy" who called "WOLF???":driving:


Yeah, as I recall that story... there really WAS a wolf in it.



(And since everyone had been lulled into disbelief, the blasted thing killed them all. Let's pray that Climate Change doesn't follow that story!)

[Saint_]

BTS;1285623 wrote:

Are people responsible in any substantial way for the warming? :-3


(Looks out window) Hmmm... I'm going to say, "Oh Hell Yes.":-2

Attached files

[LarsMac]

Just a thought.

When the ice all melts and the seas rise a few feet, who is gonna redo all the maps to show the new altitudes of all the geographic locations?

[nvalleyvee]

Saint_;1285710 wrote: (Looks out window) Hmmm... I'm going to say, "Oh Hell Yes.":-2


Wow.......If I looked out my window and saw that CRAP I would MOVE!!!!!!!

[BTS]

Saint_;1285709 wrote: Yeah, as I recall that story... there really WAS a wolf in it.





(And since everyone had been lulled into disbelief, the blasted thing killed them all. Let's pray that Climate Change doesn't follow that story!)


So when is he gonna show his mugg......(De Wolf)???

[Elone]

BTS;1284012 wrote:




It is very possible we were in the grips of global warming in 1922. The world population was growing by leaps and bounds and factories were sprouting up all over supplying the general population with the newest time saving gadgets of the time. It was the Age of the train with its massive plumes of smoke, the industrial revolution had been going on for over a hundred years, and coal was the main heat and energy source of the day. I am sure there were massive amounts of greenhouse gasses being spewed into the atmosphere at that time. The Earth may have been able to recover more quickly then because there were still very large tracts of forests across the world in places like the U.S., the Great Plains were still somewhat intact, and most of the worlds rain forests weren’t yet denuded.

. Then in 1929 the Great Depression hits the world economy and sends it into a tailspin for about ten years. And it wasn’t until after WWII that general manufacturing started feeding the needs and desires of the baby boomers. That is about 20 years for the climate to naturally recover before being assaulted again.

[Saint_]

BTS;1288615 wrote: So when is he gonna show his mugg......(De Wolf)???


He's showing it right now in the form of a decades-old-record setting snowfall along the East Coast! Like I said, "Climate Change" means everything from worse winters to more hurricanes, and droughts. The number of extreme Hurricanes (Category 4 and 5) has almost DOUBLED since 1970 from 50 per five year period to 90!

ALL THE KINDS OF WEATHER will get worse and worse. Get it?:-5

[Ahso!]

Saint_;1288794 wrote: He's showing it right now in the form of a decades-old-record setting snowfall along the East Coast! Like I said, "Climate Change" means everything from worse winters to more hurricanes, and droughts. The number of extreme Hurricanes (Category 4 and 5) has almost DOUBLED since 1970 from 50 per five year period to 90!

ALL THE KINDS OF WEATHER will get worse and worse. Get it?:-5perhaps it would help your cause if you backed some of that up with factual data sources.

[theia]

FUBAR;1284391 wrote: Does it really matter if people are responsible or not? The climate will change and polar bears probably will become extinct. If it happens now or in 10,000 years it is going to happen no matter what we do. We cannot stop the climate changing and we do not have the right to do so, evolution is driven by change and challenge not by any man made false stability. We should be concentrating on our species survival or we will become extinct as well. We cannot protect everything from everything else and life will go on even when the climate does change. So we conquer climate change and the world stays the same forever more, what about meteor strikes,super volcanoes continental drift etc. Things happen, after all 99.9% of all the species that have ever existed are not here any more. it's adapt or die not keep things as they are for ever..........


I think I go along with what you're saying

[Saint_]

Ahso!;1288812 wrote: perhaps it would help your cause if you backed some of that up with factual data sources.


Easy enough:

Nation & World | Global warming behind hurricane increase? | Seattle Times Newspaper

http://www.livescience.com/environment/ ... canes.html

[Clodhopper]

Ok, I'm breaking my resolution not to post until March.

But this is not convincing data.

[Ahso!]

Clodhopper;1289018 wrote: Ok, I'm breaking my resolution not to post until March.

But this is not convincing data.I don't have anything relevant to say to the thread, but I wanted to welcome you back, Clod. I hope all is well with you. You've been missed!

[Clodhopper]

(wry smile) Thanks Ahso. This is my bad time of the year and I'm not feeling that great. Too little light for too long. Don't know how the Scots cope with it. But I think the worst is over. England beat Wales in the Six Nations so I'm not biting so much. :wah:

[Bored_Wombat]

BTS;1285303 wrote: Your point is moot unless you can explain why on one side of the earth ice is melting (as you point out and I agree with) while on the other side it is expanding.

Splain that? Why on earth aren't both poles shrinking with ALL the toxin we pour into the atmosphere?


The ice at both poles is melting. Antarctica is losing about 250 gigatonnes of ice per year. (A gigatonne is a little bit more than a cubic kilometre). And the melt, is, as expected, accelerating.

(see perhaps Increasing rates of ice mass loss from the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets revealed by GRACE)

Talking, as you do, about the sea ice, (which has seen some small increase in the Antarctic), but ignoring the huge losses to the ice sheet is fine if what you want to do is deceive people. But, rest assured, the ice mass in both hemispheres is dropping fast.

[Bored_Wombat]

FUBAR;1284391 wrote: Does it really matter if people are responsible or not?
Not in itself. But because this climate change is caused by human activity it is very fast and so very dangerous to biodiversity. Especially in conjunction with habitat loss, over exploitation and pollution.

FUBAR;1284391 wrote: The climate will change and polar bears probably will become extinct.
And that would be a pity, but talking about a single species devalues the extent of the disaster that is currently occurring. We've seen a drop in population biodiversity of about 30% in the last 35 years. That rate of species loss isn't safe for our own species. We can't live alone on the planet.

FUBAR;1284391 wrote: If it happens now or in 10,000 years it is going to happen no matter what we do. We cannot stop the climate changing and we do not have the right to do so, evolution is driven by change and challenge not by any man made false stability.


We can stop anthropogenic global warming, and we should do what we can to slow it. Because many unique ecological communities are being wiped out every year.

I'm not sure if it is known what drives evolution exactly. Certainly genetic diversity plays a role. And while warm periods are periods of high extinction and high speciation, just changing the climate is causing extinctions, but to cause speciation it needs to be much slower, and there to be a broad genetic diversity.

Since populations and habitat have collapsed, I think it is an optimism that we can't afford to assume that we will see a burst of speciation. There's certainly no sign of it yet. (And rapid speciation would drop a new species or two every year. We're wiping them out at one every ten minutes to couple of hours, depending on how you estimate total biodiversity.)

FUBAR;1284391 wrote: We should be concentrating on our species survival or we will become extinct as well.


The argument for preserving biodiversity does reduce to that. There will be starvation if we lose the honey bee because of how much of our crops rely on them for fertilisation. But we don't know what plants,animals or bacteria that honey bees in turn might depend on ... and what they depend on. At some random time one of the species that goes extinct could be one that we depend on to sustain a population of anything near six billion. (If that's sustainable ... and its probably not without some changes in agricultural technologies or processes).

So in order to not go extinct. (Or at least suffer a catastrophic drop in population), we need to preserve biodiversity.

FUBAR;1284391 wrote: We cannot protect everything from everything else and life will go on even when the climate does change.
The climate has changed and is changing. And 30% of the range of life isn't going on anymore.

FUBAR;1284391 wrote: So we conquer climate change and the world stays the same forever more, what about meteor strikes,super volcanoes continental drift etc. Things happen, after all 99.9% of all the species that have ever existed are not here any more. it's adapt or die not keep things as they are for ever..........


There's a difference in timescale here. The end of a glaciation takes 5000 years. That's climate change. We've put the same amount of CO2 in the air in 150 years. There's no reason to expect that life will keep up.

Meteor strikes such as the one on the K/T boundary 65 million years ago and supervolcanoes are rare and utterly disastrous for biodiversity. If just supporting humans must be compared to events like those for the planet, we will never make another 200 with our civilisation intact.

[Ahso!]

Thanks for the informative and thoughtful posts, BW.

[Amythest]

It isn't just burning fossil fuels that speading up a global shift/warming, but deforesting the Equitorial Rain forests.

Logging the worlds "lungs" at the rate we are is causing the weather fluctuations and shifts.

Confirmed: Deforestation Plays Critical Climate Change Role

Volcanic activity is similar to burning fossil fuels yet having the Rain Forests in tact offsets the negative effects.

[Bored_Wombat]

And the collapse of baleen whale populations in the Southern Ocean seems to be contributing too.

Apparently baleen whales fertilise the oceans with iron. And the southern ocean has an iron deficiency that is limiting photoplankton production.

The Whale Story (Nature Reports: Climate Change)