Health Care's Ten Immediate Benefits

[Ahso!]

Rep. John B. Larson: The Top Ten Immediate Benefits You'll Get When Health Care Reform Passes

As soon as health care passes, the American people will see immediate benefits. The legislation will:

1)Prohibit pre-existing condition exclusions for children in all new plans;

2)Provide immediate access to insurance for uninsured Americans who are uninsured because of a pre-existing condition through a temporary high-risk pool;

3)Prohibit dropping people from coverage when they get sick in all individual plans;

4)Lower seniors prescription drug prices by beginning to close the donut hole;

5)Offer tax credits to small businesses to purchase coverage;

6)Eliminate lifetime limits and restrictive annual limits on benefits in all plans;

7)Require plans to cover an enrollee's dependent children until age 26;

8)Require new plans to cover preventive services and immunizations without cost-sharing;

9)Ensure consumers have access to an effective internal and external appeals process to appeal new insurance plan decisions;

10)Require premium rebates to enrollees from insurers with high administrative expenditures and require public disclosure of the percent of premiums applied to overhead costs.

By enacting these provisions right away, and others over time, we will be able to lower costs for everyone and give all Americans and small businesses more control over their health care choices.

Crossposted on the House Democrat's blog

[Lon]

Do you support the proposed plan Ahso?

[hoppy]

Ahso!;1297299 wrote: Rep. John B. Larson: The Top Ten Immediate Benefits You'll Get When Health Care Reform Passes

As soon as health care passes, the American people will see immediate benefits. The legislation will:

1)Prohibit pre-existing condition exclusions for children in all new plans;

2)Provide immediate access to insurance for uninsured Americans who are uninsured because of a pre-existing condition through a temporary high-risk pool;

3)Prohibit dropping people from coverage when they get sick in all individual plans;

4)Lower seniors prescription drug prices by beginning to close the donut hole;

5)Offer tax credits to small businesses to purchase coverage;

6)Eliminate lifetime limits and restrictive annual limits on benefits in all plans;

7)Require plans to cover an enrollee's dependent children until age 26;

8)Require new plans to cover preventive services and immunizations without cost-sharing;

9)Ensure consumers have access to an effective internal and external appeals process to appeal new insurance plan decisions;

10)Require premium rebates to enrollees from insurers with high administrative expenditures and require public disclosure of the percent of premiums applied to overhead costs.

By enacting these provisions right away, and others over time, we will be able to lower costs for everyone and give all Americans and small businesses more control over their health care choices.

Crossposted on the House Democrat's blog


Good luck with that.

[Ahso!]

Lon;1297304 wrote: Do you support the proposed plan Ahso?I can live with it. Its a nice deal for insurance companies, but we're not about to pass single payer, so we'll have to take what we can get for now. Its a step forward.

[CARLA]

Yes it is a necessary step forward.

[Lon]

I support change, but not the one currently proposed and don't believe it is a step forward. It is a huge step backward in many respects as well as an economic disaster. The ten Immediate Benefits can be offset by the 100 potential disasters and please don't ask me top enumerate them, they are obvious to all thinking people that read between the lines.

[DrLeftover]

Question.

If it is so good, why is Congress itself, and certain other Federal Employees, exempt?

[Ahso!]

Lon;1297337 wrote: I support change, but not the one currently proposed and don't believe it is a step forward. It is a huge step backward in many respects as well as an economic disaster. The ten Immediate Benefits can be offset by the 100 potential disasters and please don't ask me top enumerate them, they are obvious to all thinking people that read between the lines.What would you consider positive change and a step in the right direction regarding health care?

[Ahso!]

DrLeftover;1297345 wrote: Question.

If it is so good, why is Congress itself, and certain other Federal Employees, exempt?
Exempt from what specifically? Provide an example if you would. From what I understand, anyone enrolled in a health plan at any time would be considered exempt. In other words anyone with health insurance would be exempt from the penalty.

[Lon]

When the "Speaker of the House Nanct Pelosi" says----"I'll be glad when the Health Bill passes so we can find out what's in it"-------doesn't that give anyone cause for concern?

[LarsMac]

Lon;1297538 wrote: When the "Speaker of the House Nanct Pelosi" says----"I'll be glad when the Health Bill passes so we can find out what's in it"-------doesn't that give anyone cause for concern?
That isn't what she said, at all.

[Amythest]

In Canada.

There may be a wait, but no-one is turned away. And the waits you hear about are total scare tactics. It's an infrequent occurrence. Everyone is covered.People who have their health needs met are more productive and less likely to be driven to acts of desperation. That means less crime. Less social breakdown.



We pay taxes and that goes toward healthcare. ( well that isn't really true, There is NO money, Only debt, so at least the working citizens get SOME payback and a health safety net for their slave labour)

WE don't get refused treatment. EVER!

In The USA.

People pay private insurance, some get refused insurance if they have some ailment or weakness. Some don't get funding for treatment they already had, then lose their savings and even homes. That is Insurance fraud. Do ya'll enjoy that? Or is it ok as long as it isn't you or someone you love?

The people who have no coverage ( the working poor) suffer more when they don't get treatment for their ailments. The lack of coverage causes more strife on the economy due to illness and family breakdown.

They may lose their jobs when they get sick, then go on Welfare.

Offering medicare for the poor who don't work is counterproductive, totally unfair to the working people, and fosters fraudulent behaviour in those who can't get insurance. More stress on the system.

Are you Americans who are against public health care HUMANE? All you care about is Money? Guess what? Money is worth ZERO, Nothing. It's ALL DEBT!

So you like to see people suffer, loose their homes, loose their livelihood due to illness, you support fraud? ( insurance and individual)

I'm glad i live in Canada. We aren't perfect but we are quite humane, compassionate and believe everyone has a right to a good life. At least most of us do. :-6

So if it is Money , and more debt you worry about watch this.

The Money Masters - How International Bankers Gained Control of America

Bottom line the system is totally broken. Can't we all live with some comfort and peace in the meantime?

[Ahso!]

Lon;1297538 wrote: When the "Speaker of the House Nanct Pelosi" says----"I'll be glad when the Health Bill passes so we can find out what's in it"-------doesn't that give anyone cause for concern?Instead of parroting republican talking points, why not simply tell us what you consider change you can live with and what you think is a positive step forward?

Dr. Leftover - Do you ever carry on a conversation, or is it just hit and run with you? If you wouldn't mind letting me know, so I can decide whether or not to bother answering you in the future.

You asked a question and I answered it. Why don't you either acknowledge that my answer is relevant and if it isn't please clue me in on something more accurate.

[Lon]

LarsMac;1297550 wrote: That isn't what she said, at all.


OK---So what did she say?

[Bill Sikes]

Amythest;1297580 wrote: In The


I'm very glad that here in Great Britian we have the NHS - it would be far better if it was taken back in function and ethos by about 30 years, though. There's a *huge* burden of beaurocracy - 60% of costs are currently on pay, and much of that is on non-clinical manegerial staff, who could be decimated at *least* twice, and some of whom are paid extraordinary amounts anyway.

[hoppy]

LarsMac;1297550 wrote: That isn't what she said, at all.


That's what she said on my TV.

[LarsMac]

Lon;1297647 wrote: OK---So what did she say?


hoppy;1297660 wrote:

That's what she said on my TV.


What she said was, “But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy...."

Not that this make a lot more sense, as she seems to assume that none of us can actually see the bill before it is passed.

True, it takes a little time and effort to find a reliable copy of the bill while it is before the assembly, and not many seem to wish to spend the time.

I have spoken with a lot of people who are arguing against it, who have never read a single page of the thing.

I cannot help but wonder how many of the legislators have actually read it.



By the way, the House passed the bill tonight.

[Amythest]

I find it ironic that so many of the American people don't raise such a stink about the ammount of $$ that go toward Killing people. Namely the ongoing Wars in the Middle east. AND the private interest that BILLIONS in tax dollars go to for weapons and restructuring projects abroad. Your Corps and Gov officials rob citizens every day. No huge uprising about that. Wall street got it's bailout. Where are the civilians voices who lost so much? Spatterings here and there, but media prefers spin. They gotta keep you scared and at eachothers throats. Supporting the Industrial Military complex right?

The US military has been a presence in the Middle east and Afghanistan for over 20 yrs now, has caused record deficits and near colapse. Then their are the lives snuffed out, shattered and the illness's thereafter.

If you support the military why not Public Health Care for everyone?



Anyone who protests funding the war is a KOOK, and "unpatriotic", yet it is patriotism to leave citizens vulnerable to insurance fraud, leave 32 million without benefits?



There is DIGNITY with a Health Card, given to all, so it is used exclusively without having to submit yourself to the scrutiny of the welfare system and medicaide.

Imagine a soldier, after serving, who has become destitute ( for whatever reason, PTSD, being a low ranking officer with less benefits...) He shouldn't have to feel the shame of applying for medicaide. What of the single Mom? Someone who raises kids with absolutely no help from the "sperm doner". What about that Factory worker who's company moved oversees or to Mexico. The guy who can't find a decent paying job, his benefits have run out, and is working for minimum wage? When a person gets sick that's bad enough, but to have yourself economically labelled when you need treatment?

Let that living human go through the obstacle course of bureaucracy if they need treatment? Throw the dice if they're insurance will cover, drop them, then the dominoes fall with their personal equity. Slow suffering is the norm?:(



Congrats on passing the health care reform bill, and offering all American people a FAIR chance at staying healthy.Keeping their physical, emotional and financial lives in tact. Letting EVERYONE live with dignity. Even if the bottom drops out, and it will, It's not the working people who buggered things up so much.

Aim your disdain toward your Gov and Corps!

Since when is caring for eachother a bad thing?

">>Some of the bill's most popular measures include bans on insurers denying coverage because of pre-existing illnesses, imposing lifetime caps on coverage or dropping people from coverage when they get sick.US health bill set to pass

It's ABOUT TIME!

[Ahso!]

Amythest;1298592 wrote:

Congrats on passing the health care reform bill, and offering all American people a FAIR chance at staying healthy.Keeping their physical, emotional and financial lives in tact. Letting EVERYONE live with dignity. Even if the bottom drops out, and it will, It's not the working people who buggered things up so much.



">>Some of the bill's most popular measures include bans on insurers denying coverage because of pre-existing illnesses, imposing lifetime caps on coverage or dropping people from coverage when they get sick.US health bill set to pass

It's ABOUT TIME!Thank you!

[TruthBringer]

To my understanding, there are a few taxes involved with this new Health Care System as well:



Excise Tax on Uninsured Individuals – Individuals who fail to maintain minimum essential coverage will be subject to a penalty equal to $750. The fee for an uninsured individual under age 18 is one-half of the adult fee.

Excise Tax on High-Cost Employer Plans – The federal government would impose a 40% tax on the value of employer-sponsored health coverage exceeding certain thresholds. Those levels are projected to be $8,500 for self only and $23,000 for any other level by the year 2013. This excise was announced with fanfare by the White House and labor unions in January and remains in the final bill.

Increase in additional tax on distributions from Health Savings Accounts and Archer Medical Savings Accounts not used for qualified medical expenses – An increase from 10% to 20% on taxes of money in a health savings account not used for qualified medical expenses. For Archer medical savings accounts, an increase from 15% to 20%.

Additional Hospital Insurance Tax on High-Income Taxpayers – High income tax payers, making on a joint return over $250,000 and a standard return over $200,000, are required to pay an additional 0.5% of wages. This applies to both self-employed, and regularly employed individuals.

Fees on Health Plans – A fee applied to all health insurance providers based upon net premiums and any third party fees associated with the administration of those programs. The fees will total $6.7 billion annually. This figure begins at $8 billion in the Reconciliation Act and rises to $14.3 billion by 2018.

Tax on Indoor Tanning Services – The act imposes a 10% tax on amounts paid for indoor tanning services. Like a sales tax, the tax will be collected from the person tanning when payment for the tanning services is made.

Business Insider boils down 15 more tax hikes here – highlights include:

Tax on individuals without acceptable health care coverage – A 2.5% income tax on individuals who do not have health care coverage, limited to a cost less than the average national health care premium.

Excise tax on elective cosmetic medical procedures – A tax of 5% is levied upon the am mount paid for any cosmetic surgery. This does not include the need for such surgeries created by trauma or a disfiguring disease. If the tax is not collected by that professional completing the procedure, their business is still liable for the requirement.

The Reconciliation Act also legislates for the following surcharges: 1% surcharge on individuals making more than $350,000, 1.5% surcharge on individuals making more than $500,000, 5.4% surcharge on individuals making more than $1 million.

Taxes On Employers – If you are a large employer (defined as at least 101 employees) and you do not want to provide health insurance to your employee, then you will pay a $750 fine per employee (It could be $2,000 to $3,000 under the reconciliation changes) (Section 1513).

Taxes on Pharmaceutical Companies – The government will extract a fee of $2.3 billion annually from the pharmaceutical industry (Section 9008 (b)).

Taxes on medical device manufacturers – The government will extract a fee of $2 billion annually from medical device makers (Section 1405).



Hikes will undoubtedly be passed on to the general public in the form of higher costs.

[TruthBringer]

The cost of defying Obamacare by withholding compliance on your income tax return will not be for the faint hearted – families will be forced to cough up $2,250 a month while being closely scrutinized by an army of new IRS agents.

“The Internal Revenue Service will function as the government’s chief enforcer for health care reform, should President Obama sign the bill into law as expected, monitoring both businesses and individuals to certify whether they have the insurance coverage the government requires,” writes Matt Cover of CNS News.

The penalties associated with defying mandatory health care are staggering. From 2014 onwards, for every month that individuals or businesses with over 50 employees fail to carry a minimum level of health insurance, they will be hit with fines of up to $750 a month for individuals and $750 per uncovered employee for businesses. For a family of four, this could amount to a whopping $27,000 a year ($2250 a month for each household).

“Because these new mandates and taxes are under the purview of the IRS, taxpayers and businesses could incur additional penalties normally reserved for normal income tax cheats, paying fees over and above those for not complying with Congress’ new mandates,” writes Cover.

The health care bill requires the IRS to monitor individuals and businesses via mandatory reporting on income tax returns. If you don’t pay up, the IRS will let loose one of their estimated 16,500 new agents, armed with shotguns and fresh “combat training,” to convince you otherwise.

The increasing transformation of tax collectors into heavily armed SWAT-like goons coincides with the passage of Obamacare, legislation which will rest entirely on its aggressive enforcement by thousands of new IRS agents sent out to harass individuals and small businesses.

Many people raised an eyebrow or two last month when the Drudge Report posted a request for quotes from suppliers for 12 gauge pump action shotguns to be submitted to the IRS. The request also mentioned the fact that IRS agents now receive “combat training”.

It seems that the increasing militarization of IRS agents isn’t simply to prepare for fleecing the many Americans who would undoubtedly stop paying their taxes should draconian austerity measures be imposed to deal with a deepening economic decline, but also to physically enforce the reality behind Obamacare – the fact that if you don’t comply with it then you’ll be treated as a tax cheat and a criminal.

When Obama’s own policy czars, people like Ron Bloom, say things like, “We kinda agree with Mao (Tse Tung) that political power comes largely from a gun,” as the federal government – even the Department of Education – arms itself to the teeth in order to enforce blatantly unconstitutional policies – is it any wonder that American citizens are purchasing firearms at record levels to defend their families from a government gone wild?

Not only will the IRS be tasked with enforcing penalties against Obamacare resistors, but they’ll also be kept busy monitoring over a dozen new taxes that will be created by the bill.

“The bill is littered with tax increases in order to fund the expansion of health coverage for Americans,” points out Business Insider, who identified 15 such increases, things like an excise tax on high cost employer-sponsored health coverage, tax surcharges on people making over $350,000 a year, as well as control freak measures like a 10% tax on payments for indoor tanning treatments.

[Ahso!]

TruthBringer;1298980 wrote: To my understanding, there are a few taxes involved with this new Health Care System as well:



Excise Tax on Uninsured Individuals – Individuals who fail to maintain minimum essential coverage will be subject to a penalty equal to $750. The fee for an uninsured individual under age 18 is one-half of the adult fee.

Excise Tax on High-Cost Employer Plans – The federal government would impose a 40% tax on the value of employer-sponsored health coverage exceeding certain thresholds. Those levels are projected to be $8,500 for self only and $23,000 for any other level by the year 2013. This excise was announced with fanfare by the White House and labor unions in January and remains in the final bill.

Increase in additional tax on distributions from Health Savings Accounts and Archer Medical Savings Accounts not used for qualified medical expenses – An increase from 10% to 20% on taxes of money in a health savings account not used for qualified medical expenses. For Archer medical savings accounts, an increase from 15% to 20%.

Additional Hospital Insurance Tax on High-Income Taxpayers – High income tax payers, making on a joint return over $250,000 and a standard return over $200,000, are required to pay an additional 0.5% of wages. This applies to both self-employed, and regularly employed individuals.

Fees on Health Plans – A fee applied to all health insurance providers based upon net premiums and any third party fees associated with the administration of those programs. The fees will total $6.7 billion annually. This figure begins at $8 billion in the Reconciliation Act and rises to $14.3 billion by 2018.

Tax on Indoor Tanning Services – The act imposes a 10% tax on amounts paid for indoor tanning services. Like a sales tax, the tax will be collected from the person tanning when payment for the tanning services is made.

Business Insider boils down 15 more tax hikes here – highlights include:

Tax on individuals without acceptable health care coverage – A 2.5% income tax on individuals who do not have health care coverage, limited to a cost less than the average national health care premium.

Excise tax on elective cosmetic medical procedures – A tax of 5% is levied upon the am mount paid for any cosmetic surgery. This does not include the need for such surgeries created by trauma or a disfiguring disease. If the tax is not collected by that professional completing the procedure, their business is still liable for the requirement.

The Reconciliation Act also legislates for the following surcharges: 1% surcharge on individuals making more than $350,000, 1.5% surcharge on individuals making more than $500,000, 5.4% surcharge on individuals making more than $1 million.

Taxes On Employers – If you are a large employer (defined as at least 101 employees) and you do not want to provide health insurance to your employee, then you will pay a $750 fine per employee (It could be $2,000 to $3,000 under the reconciliation changes) (Section 1513).

Taxes on Pharmaceutical Companies – The government will extract a fee of $2.3 billion annually from the pharmaceutical industry (Section 9008 (b)).

Taxes on medical device manufacturers – The government will extract a fee of $2 billion annually from medical device makers (Section 1405).



Hikes will undoubtedly be passed on to the general public in the form of higher costs.Which blog did you copy and paste this from, TB?

Excise Tax on Uninsured Individuals ? Individuals who fail to maintain minimum essential coverage will be subject to a penalty equal to $750. The fee for an uninsured individual under age 18 is one-half of the adult fee. - Google Search

Do you ever do any research yourself? How about you pay $100.00 to UNICEF for every one of these I prove wrong? Deal?

And don't ask me to do the same for any which may be correct because it is your responsibility to ensure the accuracy of your posts. Though i will agree to pay a total of $100.00 if they are all 100% correct.

If I have to do the research for you and you've posted in error, then you pay for my time. Do you want to take that bet? Yes or no! Its a simple question.

[TruthBringer]

Ahso!;1298986 wrote: Which blog did you copy and paste this from, TB?

Excise Tax on Uninsured Individuals ? Individuals who fail to maintain minimum essential coverage will be subject to a penalty equal to $750. The fee for an uninsured individual under age 18 is one-half of the adult fee. - Google Search

Do you ever do any research yourself? How about you pay $100.00 to UNICEF for every one of these I prove wrong? Deal?

And don't ask me to do the same for any which may be correct because it is your responsibility to ensure the accuracy of your posts. Though i will agree to pay a total of $100.00 if they are all 100% correct.

If I have to do the research for you and you've posted in error, then you pay for my time. Do you want to take that bet? Yes or no! Its a simple question.


You don't have to prove me wrong you'll have to prove the Infowars website wrong:

Obamacare: Taxing The American People Into Oblivion

The Cost Of Defying Obamacare: $2,250 a Month And IRS Goons Pointing Guns At Your Family

[TruthBringer]

With ObamaCARE now passed, containing the Cornhusker Kickback, Gator-Aid, the Lousiana Purchase, and other shady deals, Investors Business Daily gives up 20 ways that ObamaCARE will take away our freedoms. IBD’s sections described below are taken from HR 3590 as agreed to by the Senate and from the reconciliation bill which takes out the Cornhusker Kickback and Gator-Aid as displayed by the Rules Committee.



1. You are young and don’t want health insurance? You are starting up a small business and need to minimize expenses, and one way to do that is to forego health insurance? Tough. You have to pay $750 annually for the “privilege. (Section 1501)

2. You are young and healthy and want to pay for insurance that reflects that status? Tough. You’ll have to pay for premiums that cover not only you, but also the guy who smokes three packs a day, drink a gallon of whiskey and eats chicken fat off the floor. That’s because insurance companies will no longer be able to underwrite on the basis of a person’s health status. (Section 2701).

3. You would like to pay less in premiums by buying insurance with lifetime or annual limits on coverage? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer such policies, even if that is what customers prefer. (Section 2711).

4. Think you’d like a policy that is cheaper because it doesn’t cover preventive care or requires cost-sharing for such care? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer policies that do not cover preventive services or offer them with cost-sharing, even if that’s what the customer wants. (Section 2712).

5. You are an employer and you would like to offer coverage that doesn’t allow your employers’ slacker children to stay on the policy until age 26? Tough. (Section 2714).

6. You must buy a policy that covers ambulatory patient services, emergency services, hospitalization, maternity and newborn care, mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment; prescription drugs; rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices; laboratory services; preventive and wellness services; chronic disease management; and pediatric services, including oral and vision care.

You’re a single guy without children? Tough, your policy must cover pediatric services. You’re a woman who can’t have children? Tough, your policy must cover maternity services. You’re a teetotaler? Tough, your policy must cover substance abuse treatment. (Add your own violation of personal freedom here.) (Section 1302).

7. Do you want a plan with lots of cost-sharing and low premiums? Well, the best you can do is a “Bronze plan, which has benefits that provide benefits that are actuarially equivalent to 60% of the full actuarial value of the benefits provided under the plan. Anything lower than that, tough. (Section 1302 (d) (1) (A))

8. You are an employer in the small-group insurance market and you’d like to offer policies with deductibles higher than $2,000 for individuals and $4,000 for families? Tough. (Section 1302 (c) (2) (A).

9. If you are a large employer (defined as at least 101 employees) and you do not want to provide health insurance to your employee, then you will pay a $750 fine per employee (It could be $2,000 to $3,000 under the reconciliation changes). Think you know how to better spend that money? Tough. (Section 1513).

10. You are an employer who offers health flexible spending arrangements and your employees want to deduct more than $2,500 from their salaries for it? Sorry, can’t do that. (Section 9005 (i)).

11. If you are a physician and you don’t want the government looking over your shoulder? Tough. The Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to use your claims data to issue you reports that measure the resources you use, provide information on the quality of care you provide, and compare the resources you use to those used by other physicians. Of course, this will all be just for informational purposes. It’s not like the government will ever use it to intervene in your practice and patients’ care. Of course not. (Section 3003 (i))

12. If you are a physician and you want to own your own hospital, you must be an owner and have a “Medicare provider agreement by Feb. 1, 2010. (Dec. 31, 2010 in the reconciliation changes.) If you didn’t have those by then, you are out of luck. (Section 6001 (i) (1) (A))

13. If you are a physician owner and you want to expand your hospital? Well, you can’t (Section 6001 (i) (1) (B). Unless, it is located in a country where, over the last five years, population growth has been 150% of what it has been in the state (Section 6601 (i) (3) ( E)). And then you cannot increase your capacity by more than 200% (Section 6001 (i) (3) (C)).

14. You are a health insurer and you want to raise premiums to meet costs? Well, if that increase is deemed “unreasonable by the Secretary of Health and Human Services it will be subject to review and can be denied. (Section 1003)

15. The government will extract a fee of $2.3 billion annually from the pharmaceutical industry. If you are a pharmaceutical company what you will pay depends on the ratio of the number of brand-name drugs you sell to the total number of brand-name drugs sold in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the brand-name drugs in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2.3 billion, or $230,000,000. (Under reconciliation, it starts at $2.55 billion, jumps to $3 billion in 2012, then to $3.5 billion in 2017 and $4.2 billion in 2018, before settling at $2.8 billion in 2019 (Section 1404)). Think you, as a pharmaceutical executive, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough. (Section 9008 (b)).

16. The government will extract a fee of $2 billion annually from medical device makers. If you are a medical device maker what you will pay depends on your share of medical device sales in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the medical devices in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2 billion, or $200,000,000. Think you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for R&D? Tough. (Section 9009 (b)).

The reconciliation package turns that into a 2.9% excise tax for medical device makers. Think you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough. (Section 1405).

17. The government will extract a fee of $6.7 billion annually from insurance companies. If you are an insurer, what you will pay depends on your share of net premiums plus 200% of your administrative costs. So, if your net premiums and administrative costs are equal to 10% of the total, you will pay 10% of $6.7 billion, or $670,000,000. In the reconciliation bill, the fee will start at $8 billion in 2014, $11.3 billion in 2015, $1.9 billion in 2017, and $14.3 billion in 2018 (Section 1406).Think you, as an insurance executive, know how to better spend that money? Tough.(Section 9010 (b) (1) (A and B).)

18. If an insurance company board or its stockholders think the CEO is worth more than $500,000 in deferred compensation? Tough.(Section 9014).

19. You will have to pay an additional 0.5% payroll tax on any dollar you make over $250,000 if you file a joint return and $200,000 if you file an individual return. What? You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9015).

That amount will rise to a 3.8% tax if reconciliation passes. It will also apply to investment income, estates, and trusts. You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Like you need to ask. (Section 1402).

20. If you go for cosmetic surgery, you will pay an additional 5% tax on the cost of the procedure. Think you know how to spend that money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9017).

http://www.fireandreamitchell.com/2010/ ... -freedoms/

[Ahso!]

TruthBringer;1298983 wrote: The cost of defying Obamacare by withholding compliance on your income tax return will not be for the faint hearted – families will be forced to cough up $2,250 a month while being closely scrutinized by an army of new IRS agents.

“The Internal Revenue Service will function as the government’s chief enforcer for health care reform, should President Obama sign the bill into law as expected, monitoring both businesses and individuals to certify whether they have the insurance coverage the government requires, writes Matt Cover of CNS News.

The penalties associated with defying mandatory health care are staggering. From 2014 onwards, for every month that individuals or businesses with over 50 employees fail to carry a minimum level of health insurance, they will be hit with fines of up to $750 a month for individuals and $750 per uncovered employee for businesses. For a family of four, this could amount to a whopping $27,000 a year ($2250 a month for each household).

“Because these new mandates and taxes are under the purview of the IRS, taxpayers and businesses could incur additional penalties normally reserved for normal income tax cheats, paying fees over and above those for not complying with Congress’ new mandates, writes Cover.

The health care bill requires the IRS to monitor individuals and businesses via mandatory reporting on income tax returns. If you don’t pay up, the IRS will let loose one of their estimated 16,500 new agents, armed with shotguns and fresh “combat training, to convince you otherwise.

The increasing transformation of tax collectors into heavily armed SWAT-like goons coincides with the passage of Obamacare, legislation which will rest entirely on its aggressive enforcement by thousands of new IRS agents sent out to harass individuals and small businesses.

Many people raised an eyebrow or two last month when the Drudge Report posted a request for quotes from suppliers for 12 gauge pump action shotguns to be submitted to the IRS. The request also mentioned the fact that IRS agents now receive “combat training.

It seems that the increasing militarization of IRS agents isn’t simply to prepare for fleecing the many Americans who would undoubtedly stop paying their taxes should draconian austerity measures be imposed to deal with a deepening economic decline, but also to physically enforce the reality behind Obamacare – the fact that if you don’t comply with it then you’ll be treated as a tax cheat and a criminal.

When Obama’s own policy czars, people like Ron Bloom, say things like, “We kinda agree with Mao (Tse Tung) that political power comes largely from a gun, as the federal government – even the Department of Education – arms itself to the teeth in order to enforce blatantly unconstitutional policies – is it any wonder that American citizens are purchasing firearms at record levels to defend their families from a government gone wild?

Not only will the IRS be tasked with enforcing penalties against Obamacare resistors, but they’ll also be kept busy monitoring over a dozen new taxes that will be created by the bill.

“The bill is littered with tax increases in order to fund the expansion of health coverage for Americans, points out Business Insider, who identified 15 such increases, things like an excise tax on high cost employer-sponsored health coverage, tax surcharges on people making over $350,000 a year, as well as control freak measures like a 10% tax on payments for indoor tanning treatments.I'll offer you the same deal on this one, TB. Want to deal?

If you agree we each transfer $200.00 into the paypal account of a third party member of this forum we both trust and the winner gets back their money. However, you may have to pay more in at the end, but my total commitment is $200.00. Its time to put something behind our words.

[Ahso!]

You're nothing more than a conspiracy spammer that copies and pastes. You have no credibility whatsoever.

[TruthBringer]

Ahso!;1298995 wrote: I'll offer you the same deal on this one, TB. Want to deal?

If you agree we each transfer $200.00 into the paypal account of a third party member of this forum we both trust and the winner gets back their money. However, you may have to pay more in at the end, but my total commitment is $200.00. Its time to put something behind our words.


Read the above post I just posted before you even begin to get into the other ones. It's not from the same source, but it is just as informative.

Also, don't tell me you thought that the government was going to pay for all of this with their own money? No....no my friend. That's not how it works. You pay for it. I pay for it. In the end we all end up paying for it. Even if we can't afford to. And I shiver to think of what happens if we don't. And then I shiver to think of what happens after that if we continue not to. And then I wonder just what we may have all gotten ourselves into (not me of course because I didn't vote for the ****in thing). Though it will effect me either way.

[Ahso!]

TruthBringer;1298999 wrote: Read the above post I just posted before you even begin to get into the other ones. It's not from the same source, but it is just as informative.

Also, don't tell me you thought that the government was going to pay for all of this with their own money? No....no my friend. That's not how it works. You pay for it. I pay for it. In the end we all end up paying for it. Even if we can't afford to.You and I pay for it either way in either higher taxes or higher premiums. The difference now is that there are some restrictions on the insurance companies, and theres a mandate that we all contribute in order to bring down costs.

You haven't got a clue what you're talking about. All you are doing is being fed right wing propaganda and you're swallowing it all one gulp at a time. You're a sucker.

[TruthBringer]

Ahso!;1299002 wrote: You and I pay for it either way in either higher taxes or higher premiums. The difference now is that there are some restrictions on the insurance companies, and theres a mandate that we all contribute in order to bring down costs.

You haven't got a clue what you're talking about. All you are doing is being fed right wing propaganda and you're swallowing it all one gulp at a time. You're a sucker.


And you sir/man are very angry, judgemental, and condescending. And you tend to express yourself through name calling, which is the lowest form possible.

I say we're all going to find out one way or the other if this was a good idea or a bad idea. I think it was incredibly flawed from the beginning. And I think it was shoved down the American people's throats, with the promise of a better tomorrow. Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. Often times when the government promises a better tomorrow what we actually get is no such thing. And why should I ever believe that this case would be any different? Given the track record of the

past 8 years?

[Ahso!]

TruthBringer;1299017 wrote: And you sir/man are very angry, judgemental, and condescending. And you tend to express yourself through name calling, which is the lowest form possible.

I say we're all going to find out one way or the other if this was a good idea or a bad idea. I think it was incredibly flawed from the beginning. And I think it was shoved down the American people's throats, with the promise of a better tomorrow. Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. Often times when the government promises a better tomorrow what we actually get is no such thing. And why should I ever believe that this case would be any different? Given the track record of the

past 8 years?I'm just telling you to check your facts before doing your copy and paste. I've offered to do it for you. Take me up on it if you're sure of your sources.

DON'T SPAM MY THREAD!

[K.Snyder]

Well aside from this little episode of extrapolated friendliness is anyone willing to take a step back here and realize what a huge precedent we've finally set here?

I know Walmart employees have to be ecstatic!!!!!! :yh_rotfl And good for them...:yh_wink

[mikeinie]

Well done to Obama for moving forward with this controversial bill.

A country that does not care and invest in the health of its people does not care about its people. Health care is a basic human right, and most developed nations have it as it is an investment in its people.

Yesterday I was reading responses to the article on Yahoo about this, and it is amazing the anger and seething comments from people on this who are against it. How can people justify bailing out banks and Wall Street and pay out billions to save corporations from falling, yet not want to invest in the wellbeing of their nation. It baffles me.

Then there were loads of comments about ‘being socialists like Europe’.. what a crock of sht. Canada, Australia, and many other countries have universal health care and this does not make them/us socialists.

Anyway, why is socialism such a bad word in the USA anyway? All it means is that the country cares about the conditions and health of the people living in the country, is that so wrong?

[hoppy]

In the past and even now people like Kitty Werthmann have tried to warn the USA, only to be met with laughter, jokes and a "it can't happen here" attitude. Now, it's all happening here, or about to happen. The incredible thing is how many are STILL in denial. For the sake of your children and grandchildren, try to see beyond the present. Try to see the country the 'crats are trying to force upon us. You're probably thinking, "we'll just become more europe-like". You think europe will remain as it is now, once the USA is taken down?:(

[Tan]

IM WITH AMYTHEST

Well said

:yh_clap

[mikeinie]

hoppy;1299197 wrote: In the past and even now people like Kitty Werthmann have tried to warn the USA, only to be met with laughter, jokes and a "it can't happen here" attitude. Now, it's all happening here, or about to happen. The incredible thing is how many are STILL in denial. For the sake of your children and grandchildren, try to see beyond the present. Try to see the country the 'crats are trying to force upon us. You're probably thinking, "we'll just become more europe-like". You think europe will remain as it is now, once the USA is taken down?:(


When did Americans become so afraid of everything? Now you're even afraid of each other.

What happened to ‘New frontiers’?

‘Land of the Brave’?

“When the USA gets taken down??? What does that mean?

[hoppy]

mikeinie;1299211 wrote: When did Americans become so afraid of everything? Now you're even afraid of each other.

What happened to ‘New frontiers’?

‘Land of the Brave’?

“When the USA gets taken down??? What does that mean?


take your place in the ranks of those in denial.

[TruthBringer]

mikeinie;1299190 wrote: Well done to Obama for moving forward with this controversial bill.

A country that does not care and invest in the health of its people does not care about its people. Health care is a basic human right, and most developed nations have it as it is an investment in its people.

Yesterday I was reading responses to the article on Yahoo about this, and it is amazing the anger and seething comments from people on this who are against it. How can people justify bailing out banks and Wall Street and pay out billions to save corporations from falling, yet not want to invest in the wellbeing of their nation. It baffles me.

Then there were loads of comments about ‘being socialists like Europe’.. what a crock of sht. Canada, Australia, and many other countries have universal health care and this does not make them/us socialists.

Anyway, why is socialism such a bad word in the USA anyway? All it means is that the country cares about the conditions and health of the people living in the country, is that so wrong?


1. This is not Universal free healthcare.

2. This is not Canada's, or Australia's health care plan. This was designed by the United States Government, and is in no way connected to those two countries.

3. This was not the right plan nor the right time to introduce this plan with everything going on in our country at the moment. It will result in many more businesses having to close down. It's only a matter of time.

[K.Snyder]

mikeinie;1299190 wrote: Well done to Obama for moving forward with this controversial bill.

A country that does not care and invest in the health of its people does not care about its people. Health care is a basic human right, and most developed nations have it as it is an investment in its people.

Yesterday I was reading responses to the article on Yahoo about this, and it is amazing the anger and seething comments from people on this who are against it. How can people justify bailing out banks and Wall Street and pay out billions to save corporations from falling, yet not want to invest in the wellbeing of their nation. It baffles me.

Then there were loads of comments about ‘being socialists like Europe’.. what a crock of sht. Canada, Australia, and many other countries have universal health care and this does not make them/us socialists.

Anyway, why is socialism such a bad word in the USA anyway? All it means is that the country cares about the conditions and health of the people living in the country, is that so wrong?


Firstly those comments are riddled with people that can't get a word in otherwise which explains their preference to do so on "Yahoo":yh_eyerol and those for the bill quite simply don't feel like wasting their time with this horss because we've put up with it for the past :yh_tired...:wah:

Secondly, "socialism" is feared here because those of the indications having been set by previous countries on their way to a government that even myself condemns let alone disapprove of and I want a World wide spectrum of pure 100% Socialism. This country was built on capitalism and a mere healthcare bill such as this is only a dent on the country's way to becoming commendable entirely. I wouldn't expect the time frame we've observed to be millimeters close to one that can refrain from being brainwashed by big business.

[mikeinie]

K.Snyder;1299408 wrote: Firstly those comments are riddled with people that can't get a word in otherwise which explains their preference to do so on "Yahoo":yh_eyerol and those for the bill quite simply don't feel like wasting their time with this horss because we've put up with it for the past :yh_tired...:wah:

Secondly, "socialism" is feared here because those of the indications having been set by previous countries on their way to a government that even myself condemns let alone disapprove of and I want a World wide spectrum of pure 100% Socialism. This country was built on capitalism and a mere healthcare bill such as this is only a dent on the country's way to becoming commendable entirely. I wouldn't expect the time frame we've observed to be millimeters close to one that can refrain from being brainwashed by big business.


I don’t entirely agree with you on this. The belief that your country was built on Capitalism is not true, it was built on democracy not capitalism. The whole ‘capitalism’ decree has only come about in the past 25 years after the view that the fall of the Berlin Wall and the Soviet Union was like a military victory of Capitalism over Communism. In fact it is was during the times of uncontrolled capitalism that the country nearly fell apart as it is doing now.

Nowhere in the constitution of the United States of America is the financial structure of the country stated. In fact if anything the Constitution is based on a Socialistic view of society.

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

There is nothing overtly capitalistic about that.

The opening statement says specifically: ‘promote the general welfare’ which means, promote the health and wellbeing of the people.

In section 8 it says: To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes .

Regulate commerce? Regulation of commerce in actually anti-capitalism, yet it is stated in the constitution.

In the early 1900, corporate America boomed with the Rockefellers and so forth, during this time the corruption in government between big business and politicians was unbelievable. The group called the ‘Muckrakers’ were journalists which brought all this corruption to the limelight. Due to their investigations a number of processes came into play which included the Pure Food and Drug Act, the breakup of Standard Oil, the direct election of senators, and investigations into the insurance and finance industries. That is more socialistic than it is capitalistic.

The muckrakers were shut down after big business and politicians set out against them. ( now that’s capitalistic).

The market ran wild which eventually lead to the stock market crash of 1929. To prevent this from happening again FDR brought in all sorts of regulations to protect the economy. These regulations have been chipped away at since the Reagan years and eventually leading to the crash we have today.

And what is happening today? The same thing as way back then.

Corruption

Uncontrolled capitalism

Big business running Capitol Hill.

I do not know the details of the controversial health plan, but what I do know is that without the FDR 5 year plan, America would not have survived the depression. Having a health plan does not make your country suddenly anti-capitalist, or socialist. It only means that you are living up to the promise made in the constitution.

I consider myself a Capitalist. I work for a large US multi-national, I believe in working for welfare payments, I believe in being rewarded for my efforts and hard work, I like business. Does the fact that I also agree that a country should provide a good medical system for all the citizens of the country to have access to suddenly make me a socialist?

When people are healthy they are happier, when they are happier they are more active, when they are more active they are more productive, so in fact you could argue that a health care system is actually beneficial to capitalism.



Anyway, good luck with it all and I hope that it works out for everyone.

[Ahso!]

mikeinie;1299448 wrote: I consider myself a Capitalist. I work for a large US multi-national, I believe in working for welfare payments, I believe in being rewarded for my efforts and hard work, I like business. Does the fact that I also agree that a country should provide a good medical system for all the citizens of the country to have access to suddenly make me a socialist?



When people are healthy they are happier, when they are happier they are more active, when they are more active they are more productive, so in fact you could argue that a health care system is actually beneficial to capitalism.



Anyway, good luck with it all and I hope that it works out for everyone. I completely agree!

I'm a capitalist as well. not by choice but because thats the behavior one must adopt to at least some degree in order to be successful in America. I understand capitalism quite well also having been a manager and sales instructor for a large American corporation for 11 years and (with the exception of a few side jobs here and there) being self employed for most of the remainder of the time both before and after my corporate years.

Corporations and smaller business owners are fully aware that one of the best ways to boost productivity and ensure employee contentment in the workforce is to provide health care for everyone they employ, but they've been priced out of the market, so they've turned to the federal government (state government lacks the necessary power to control the insurance industry's behavior) to help somehow, and the federal government has responded to the business owners of the country. Somehow, now its a sin though. Ah, the chirping of ignorance.

Funny how those who have never had jobs that require understanding the working of a business, or have never been in business themselves are authorities on the subject of whats best for business owners.

That said, there are some business owners that would prefer not to cover their employees with health care. The problem is with the way the health and insurance industries have priced everyone out, those industries have forced the choice onto them.

As i see it, there are basically two types of business minds: philosophical and tactical. In America, business people must wear both hats - most of the time, simultaneously. However, there are times when they should be worn one at a time, and the business person must focus on that aspect of business if they would like to remain fair-minded AND successful.

Tactics (strategy) is how business owners make money, philosophy is how they remain human. The problem today with too many American business people is they've misplaced their philosophical side and have become one dimensional.

There is an excellent book out titled The Big Short, authored by Micheal Lewis which kind of explains this through the eyes of those people who brought us this financial collapse we're now dealing with. I recommend this book.

Thanks for the well wishes, Mike.

[mikeinie]

Ahso!;1299454 wrote: I completely agree!

Funny how those who have never had jobs that require understanding the working of a business, or have never been in business themselves are authorities on the subject of whats best for business owners.




How true is that? And those who want 'redistribution of wealth' are those who do nothing but sit around and complain.

[Amythest]

mikeinie;1299211 wrote: When did Americans become so afraid of everything? Now you're even afraid of each other.

What happened to ‘New frontiers’?

‘Land of the Brave’?

“When the USA gets taken down??? What does that mean?


No kidding! Fear and loathing in the USA! It's all misdirected tho.

WE are ALL governed by the the UCC ( Uniform Commercial Code_ rules for commercial/contract law - the only law in operation today) more than the Constitution, or a Bill of Rights.

Money has become the basis for all decisions now and many have totally lost their humanity because of that. Why all the fear and hate aimed at your fellow citizens and certain foreign entities?



Here is where our troubles began for the last few generations.

On November 22, 1910, Aldrich and the rest of the Monetary Commission met

at a private hunting club of J.P. Morgan on Jekyll Island, Georgia, to draft

a bill that would put the economic future of the United States into the

hands of a few private Money Powers. The original bill was the highly

unpopular Owen-Glass Bill. The name of the bill was later changed to the

Federal Reserve Act. The timing of the vote for the Federal Reserve Act was

engineered by its promoters. It was passed hastily in effort to break for

Christmas on December 23, 1913, while the majority of opposing Congressmen

were on Christmas vacation. Then, when elected, the banker financed

Woodrow Wilson immediately signed the Federal Reserve Act.

Within months of starting the privately owned Federal Reserve, individual

Income Taxes were created to pay for this new bankers' interest expense.

The taxes of American Citizens pay the interest on all new "debt

certificate" currency and credit issued by the privately owned Federal

Reserve. Where does the privately owned Federal Reserve spend the mass

profits it extorts from the labor of our People? Dr. Antony Sutton, author

of "Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution" (Arlington House Publishers,

Rochelle, N.Y., 1974), provides some insight. He conducted exhaustive

research through American, Canadian and German government archives and

discovered solid evidence, which he painstakingly documented, proving that

many American Capitalists, primarily the JP Morgan (US Steel) interests

provided financial support for the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia.

Also, William B. Thompson, Director of the US Federal Reserve Bank of New

York, provided the Bolsheviks significant monetary support. Dr. Sutton

stated "If Thompson had not been in Russia in 1917, subsequent history might

have followed quite a different course. Without the financial, diplomatic

and propaganda assistance given by Thompson and his associates to Trotsky

and Lenin, The Bolsheviks may well have quickly withered away.



The Sad Story Of The Privately Owned Federal Reserve Bank



Rep. Aldrich campaigned for the foreign owned federal reserve , Dem. Woodrow signed the bill in 1913.

Read this whole article if you want to learn the REAL state of our financial affairs.

Seems we place a lot of importance on something that is worth nothing.

To me LIFE is worth SOMETHING and EVERYTHING! So take care of it no? Yes. Give people comfort and good health at least! Everyone regardless of their economic or social standing. It does make for better productivity and fosters peace.

Seems all the arguing is futile. It's a waste of time.

Yes we are ALL in a financial conundrum but do we, as citizens, keep tightening OUR belts? Deny ourselves the comforts and benefits WE deserve for our labours? OR borrow more? Use the ole plastic? Do people keep parroting the messages set loose upon us by the media, which aims to deflect the attention from this financial fiasco?

[K.Snyder]

mikeinie;1299448 wrote: I don’t entirely agree with you on this. The belief that your country was built on Capitalism is not true, it was built on democracy not capitalism. The whole ‘capitalism’ decree has only come about in the past 25 years after the view that the fall of the Berlin Wall and the Soviet Union was like a military victory of Capitalism over Communism. In fact it is was during the times of uncontrolled capitalism that the country nearly fell apart as it is doing now.

Nowhere in the constitution of the United States of America is the financial structure of the country stated. In fact if anything the Constitution is based on a Socialistic view of society.

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

There is nothing overtly capitalistic about that.

The opening statement says specifically: ‘promote the general welfare’ which means, promote the health and wellbeing of the people.

In section 8 it says: To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes .

Regulate commerce? Regulation of commerce in actually anti-capitalism, yet it is stated in the constitution.

In the early 1900, corporate America boomed with the Rockefellers and so forth, during this time the corruption in government between big business and politicians was unbelievable. The group called the ‘Muckrakers’ were journalists which brought all this corruption to the limelight. Due to their investigations a number of processes came into play which included the Pure Food and Drug Act, the breakup of Standard Oil, the direct election of senators, and investigations into the insurance and finance industries. That is more socialistic than it is capitalistic.

The muckrakers were shut down after big business and politicians set out against them. ( now that’s capitalistic).

The market ran wild which eventually lead to the stock market crash of 1929. To prevent this from happening again FDR brought in all sorts of regulations to protect the economy. These regulations have been chipped away at since the Reagan years and eventually leading to the crash we have today.

And what is happening today? The same thing as way back then.

Corruption

Uncontrolled capitalism

Big business running Capitol Hill.

I do not know the details of the controversial health plan, but what I do know is that without the FDR 5 year plan, America would not have survived the depression. Having a health plan does not make your country suddenly anti-capitalist, or socialist. It only means that you are living up to the promise made in the constitution.

I consider myself a Capitalist. I work for a large US multi-national, I believe in working for welfare payments, I believe in being rewarded for my efforts and hard work, I like business. Does the fact that I also agree that a country should provide a good medical system for all the citizens of the country to have access to suddenly make me a socialist?

When people are healthy they are happier, when they are happier they are more active, when they are more active they are more productive, so in fact you could argue that a health care system is actually beneficial to capitalism.



Anyway, good luck with it all and I hope that it works out for everyone.


"Does the fact that I also agree that a country should provide a good medical system for all the citizens of the country to have access to suddenly make me a socialist?" Yes :wah: Just that "socialist" happens to be very caring people.

The US Constitution was written before the US had time to become capitalistic. The mere opportunity has created a capitalist agenda.

"US founded on capitalism" is a bit overstated I'll admit. How's "The US has been capitalistic from very early in it's existence" how's that? :yh_wink

I myself find capitalism to define a lack of compassion for the less fortunate defined by it's conservative mentality. There's absolutely nothing wrong with keeping money one doesn't need so long as others aren't in need during the event. Anything else is pure evil

[TruthBringer]

All I can tell you is to listen to the words of Phylos. Phylos knew exactly what was America's fate if we kept heading down the same road we have been heading down:

If you have ever read the book, "A Dweller on Two Planets", than you may have heard of Phylos.

After stating that "Man is his own judge and executioner," Phylos then proceeds to describe the end of our age:

"Soon millions of trained soldiers will turn upon the visible representatives, the wealthy and the worldly prosperous, who in reality are not more responsible than will be their assailants, of that Relentless Force (selfish action) behind all human enterprise. Later they will break up into lawless bands bent on satisfying Ishmaelitish tendencies, each self-server's hand weaponed against their fellow creatures. Then will the pent-up hate, the savagery and selfishness begotten by ages of selfishness ruled by unbridled animalism break in a storm such as the world hath never yet seen..."

In what appears to be a singularly prescient statement he continues:



"Friends, know ye the meaning of the name Jerusalem? That it meanth "Vision of Peace"? Verily, so it doth. One by one during the years all the signs of the end of the Age but one were fulfilled; but these were "only the beginning of sorrows," for still the Spirit of Liberty abode here and there in the breasts of lovers of their fellowmen. The Spirit wrapped itself in the glorious folds of the Stars and Stripes and proclaimed the imperishable declaration of human equality, granting unto all that freedom which Americans themselves demanded. But now the "Vision of Peace" is finally encompassed by armies, the last gap being filled with blue-coated soldiers forcing Mammon's commercial shackles upon alien peoples in tropical lands..."Then shall the end come." A Son hath continually called from on High: "Stand from under! Get into the shelter of that Cross."

[K.Snyder]

TruthBringer;1299760 wrote: All I can tell you is to listen to the words of Phylos. Phylos knew exactly what was America's fate if we kept heading down the same road we have been heading down:

If you have ever read the book, "A Dweller on Two Planets", than you may have heard of Phylos.

After stating that "Man is his own judge and executioner," Phylos then proceeds to describe the end of our age:

"Soon millions of trained soldiers will turn upon the visible representatives, the wealthy and the worldly prosperous, who in reality are not more responsible than will be their assailants, of that Relentless Force (selfish action) behind all human enterprise. Later they will break up into lawless bands bent on satisfying Ishmaelitish tendencies, each self-server's hand weaponed against their fellow creatures. Then will the pent-up hate, the savagery and selfishness begotten by ages of selfishness ruled by unbridled animalism break in a storm such as the world hath never yet seen..."

In what appears to be a singularly prescient statement he continues:



"Friends, know ye the meaning of the name Jerusalem? That it meanth "Vision of Peace"? Verily, so it doth. One by one during the years all the signs of the end of the Age but one were fulfilled; but these were "only the beginning of sorrows," for still the Spirit of Liberty abode here and there in the breasts of lovers of their fellowmen. The Spirit wrapped itself in the glorious folds of the Stars and Stripes and proclaimed the imperishable declaration of human equality, granting unto all that freedom which Americans themselves demanded. But now the "Vision of Peace" is finally encompassed by armies, the last gap being filled with blue-coated soldiers forcing Mammon's commercial shackles upon alien peoples in tropical lands..."Then shall the end come." A Son hath continually called from on High: "Stand from under! Get into the shelter of that Cross."


People can spout off about how all "great" nations eventually crumble but if you don't give a time frame the prediction is worth about as much as the remnant having been left over from the excretion of a dung beetle

[TruthBringer]

K.Snyder;1299778 wrote: People can spout off about how all "great" nations eventually crumble but if you don't give a time frame the prediction is worth about as much as the remnant having been left over from the excretion of a dung beetle


Well, I should add that Phylos said that the United States would suffer a worse woe than Atlantis did, but I'll go over that in my thread in the Warfare and Military section of this board.

I should also add that Phylos made it clear that these "trained soldiers" would soon attack people in high places all over the World (meaning the politicians, the wealthy, the more privileged - those who have been living the "good life") and they will probably do so out of greed/jealousy.

But what I find interesting, is that he used the term "trained" soldiers. This to me means that they will either be a militia type group or.....soldiers from a nation's or multiple nation's armies. He also adds that these "trained soldiers" will have lots of pent up aggression, and that this aggression will cause a storm of anger to break out all over the world that will be like nothing the World has ever seen.

If I had to put a time frame on when this was going to happen, I would say, as soon as the World economy collapses. Meaning the economies of every major nation in the World (because they are all tied into each other in one way or another). So I would say, very very soon.

When the American economy completely collapses, which will happen, which is destined to happen, that will cause many other economies to crumble as well. This could be triggered by many different causes, but most likely it will be triggered by multiple causes happening at the same time. The economies of the European nations will completely collapse as well, not too far from now. War breaking out is an extreme possibility, especially in the Middle East. And I'm talking all out war, not one country invading another country.

When the economies of the World collapse, there will be much anger spread out Worldwide. It is quite possible that soldiers will turn against their own leaders in this scenario, be they militia type soldiers, privately/corporately owned soldiers, military soldiers, veteran soldiers, you name it. People will be upset and will turn on their governments. They will have nowhere else to turn their anger. When things get so bad that food and water become hard to obtain, you watch what happens. I promise you that the worst in people who don't have much of a conscience to begin with will show it's ugly head, and those people will join together for their own survival, through greed and selfishness, and will do whatever it takes to get what they want. Hurricane Katrina is a small example of the lawlessness that hardship creates. The wicked will show their true colors when the opportunity presents itself. They will steal/rape/kill/plunder/whatever it takes to achieve satisfaction for their own personal desires.

Is it any wonder that hatred towards government is at an all time high? When things get really bad, people will turn against their governments. Armies will turn against their own governments/other governments/other countries to fill their minds with their own self delusional happiness. When certain people become unhappy, they make sure that other people around them feel the same way. This is the mark of a true low level vibrational being. Someone who causes the suffering of others in order to try and eliminate their own suffering from within. And it never works of course, but throughout history it has caused tyrants and armies to rise up and shake the World. And it will happen again, very soon, because the conditions for such activities are already ripened. I'm talking a bloodbath like the World has never seen. The only thing that would stop such acts from happening would be if the Pole-Shift happened sooner than later (which is my hope), but that's completely up to the Forces that manifest, and so all we can do is wait and see what happens. But if things keep going the way they are going, you can bet that it won't be long now before all out chaos breaks out across the planet. There will be nothing else that will be able to stop it from happening. Not when each country is bankrupt and their governments are holding on by a thread. Not while wars are breaking out across the globe and people are being killed everywhere.

The one thing people need to understand about our planet, is that here, the dark ALWAYS comes before the dawn. And although the dawn is near, we must first go through the extreme hardships that are on the horizon before we are allowed to experience it. And these hardships will be enough to make the weaker emotional/vibrational beings literally lose their minds. To literally go crazy over what they will experience. And that will be many, many people. Only the strong willed/emotionally stronger people will be able to hold themselves together through what the World is about to experience. It will be the hardest thing Humanity has ever had to experience. Since the beginning of our time. And it won't be a localized problem. It will be global in scale. And everyone will feel the pressure of it, whether you live in a mansion or whether you are sleeping on the street, you will not be left out of the troubles that the World MUST endure before we transition into the new Age. No one will escape the tribulation. Everyone must endure it until the end.

Matthew 24:13

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

[TruthBringer]

As a little side note....when the World economy collapses, some of the Western nations will come together and will announce their plans for and will push hard for a One World Currency. However, the problem is that many of the Eastern/Middle Eastern nations will refuse to accept it. Nations like China, Iran, Syria, some of the African nations, etc. They will all refuse it. This could/will cause World War 3 if the problem is not solved in time. An East vs West situation. And it's just the way it will have worked out.

Edgar Cayce had his own words to give on this subject in the following reading:

Question: "Would it be feasible to work out an international currency, or...stabilization of exchange values"?

Answer: "This, too, will be worked toward. It will be a long, long time before established. There may indeed be another war (World War 3) over just such conditions....and when the present conditions (World War 2) have subsided...there will be more and more upsetting in the monetary units in the land."

Edgar Cayce

3976-28

June 20th, 1943

[TruthBringer]

By the way if anyone is hoping that all of the nations of the World will adopt a Universal Health Care System that works for everyone if countries like America were to (Which America hasn't done yet) than I wouldn't get your hopes up because just about the only Universal system that the World has adopted so far has been Coke and Pepsi. And that's pretty much all the World has been able to agree on so far.

[TruthBringer]

"Love And Peace Or Else" video:

YouTube - U2 Love And Peace Or Else live from Chicago2005 Vertigo Tour

[TruthBringer]

I've been saying for a long time now that every single person should be storing up food and water. Even in countries like America. In fact, Edgar Cayce stated this in one of his readings when he said:

"Anyone who can should buy a farm, and buy it if you don't want to grow hungry in some days to come, for the hardships for America have not yet begun, so far as the supply and demand for foods are concerned."

Edgar Cayce

3620-1/257-254

Ruth Montgomery stated that if a person is not prepared when these changes come about then it will be their own fault for not preparing when they had the opportunity to do so, and that they will suffer the consequences thereof.