Beware The Ides of March !!

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:40 am

In honour, slightly belatedly, of the Ides of March - here's the fantastic Wayne and Shuster piece:

Rinse the Blood of My Toga

YouTube - Rinse the Blood Off My Toga

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:44 am

Wayne and Shuster.. I forgot all about those two, man they were funny.

Thanks

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:51 am

I still fall down at the "martinus" joke. You mean 'martini'. If I want two, I'll ask for two...

Two and two make IV

Big Julie, don't go already. I told him. The Ides of March. - I love Calpurnia!!

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:12 am

This was far too high-brow for me ! :yh_rotfl

ZAP · Post by **ZAP** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:14 am

That is so funny! Thanks Pam.

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:24 pm

So glad you enjoyed that. I think they're totally hilarious!!

Happy Saint Patrick's Day to all... Google today has exKell'd itself!

Post by **spot** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:19 pm

You can tell it's ancient - nobody would dare try that martinus joke these days.

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:23 pm

My street cred will be down the toilet if I agree with you on anything, Spot - but I do regret the passing of not just Latin, but all grammar. It's fine to toss out the rules, but to do that and get away with it, you have to first know the rules. :sneaky:

My current favourite FG linguistic abomination is the misuse of WHOM when it just has to be WHO!!! Several people do it routinely.

Exit stage left

Post by **spot** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:25 pm

Whom do you have... no, I'd better not ask.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:53 pm

AussiePam;1297286 wrote: My street cred will be down the toilet if I agree with you on anything, Spot - but I do regret the passing of not just Latin, but all grammar. It's fine to toss out the rules, but to do that and get away with it, you have to first know the rules. :sneaky:

My current favourite FG linguistic abomination is the misuse of WHOM when it just has to be WHO!!! Several people do it routinely.

Exit stage leftI'm most likely among the guilty. Sorry! Perhaps you can assist me by explaining the difference, Pam.

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:52 pm

Ahso!;1297298 wrote: I'm most likely among the guilty. Sorry! Perhaps you can assist me by explaining the difference, Pam.

Really basically:

Who is a subject word like he

Whom is an object word like him

----

To whom are you speaking? To him.

Who said that? He did.

----

The man whom I saw. The man who saw me.

------

People who need to keep things really simple and cannot see the difference in the two forms might want to ditch the whom form.

It sounds somehow less uneducated to say:

To who were you talking? or, much more commonly, Who were you talking to?

than to say

Whom is your best friend?

(No matter how sloppily you speak, this one is always going to be wrong)

Post by **spot** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:33 pm

I'll swallow every vestige of good form and declare that "who", in today's debased society, is invariably grammatically correct in every context, while "whom" quite often isn't. If you aren't certain of the rule, never ever use "whom" because when you get that wrong it damages your sentence and your street cred horribly.

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:14 am

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:54 am

AussiePam;1297342 wrote: Yes.Thanks to the both of you.

ZAP · Post by **ZAP** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:09 am

AussiePam;1297335 wrote: Really basically:

To who were you talking? or, much more commonly, Who were you talking to?

Yes, but then you have that danged dangling preposition! :-3

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:12 pm

You do indeed, Zappy. Language is continually changing and you can't tie it down with rules.

Theoretically, a preposition is a word you shouldn't end a sentence with. But why the heck not? Dangling can be fun.

"What did you tear the book I read to you out of up for? " - is fine, isn't it, if a bit clumsy?

---

I deliberately split an infinitive in my earlier post. It made more sense than being wussily purist.

I guess language is about feel. Latinists used to argue that the verb to be takes the same case (nominative) after as before, so you had to say

It is I

That grates. I think now, some would argue that English has an emphatic pronoun, like French.

It is me! C'est moi. You don't say c'est je.

Who did this? I did / Me! But not Me did.

---

So where is there a real grammar mistake? If you can do anything, what is really wrong?

This is difficult, and there are grey areas.

In my opinion, using WHOM as the subject of a verb is always going to be wrong. Like using HIM as the subject of a verb.

----

Wrong stuff.

I saw HE.

THEM say me.

They saw him AND I

WHOM likes Madonna?

He ARE happy

THEIR happy

The dog wagged IT'S tail

---

Language is about communication. You can do anything, but some things will give a reader or listener an additional message you may not wish to give.

Use WHOM as a subject and you are saying that you know such a form exists and you feel it will make you look cluey if you use it, so you're trying to look cluey, but you never learnt any grammar and you don't have any feel for language.

OR

You could be using it deliberately for a comic effect.

Using really large words you don't understand does this too.

I used to teach writing skills and the most important point I tried to get across was that simplicity is good. The KISS principle.

If you want to convey information, you need to do it in a way that everyone will understand.

If you want to do more than this - add nuances and levels, load your words for some agenda - you'd better know what you're doing. It's better to be the boss of the language you use, than to let it be the boss of you.

:sneaky:

Pam hoppeth off the soapbox and goeth in search of coffee.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:38 pm

Thanks for that, Pam. Its kind of you to share your knowledge with us.

For me, its not that I'm attempting to sound impressive (at least I hope not) (perhaps I'm in denial?

) as much as I'd like to communicate properly. I admire those of you who do use language effectively and properly. Also, I think its artful. I guess not all of us are artists though, huh!

ZAP · Post by **ZAP** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:38 pm

Applause, kudos, heaps of laurel leaves, bay leaves, fig leaves, etc. to you Lady Pam.

As always I love your informative explanation. Ones that make me grit my teeth are "For John & I" or "Their going to go."

But sometimes the error sounds better than the correct usage.

So AP, to what else have you been up?

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:58 pm

Pam,

You are always hysterical with your stories. You would have made a wonderful actress....Is it too late:-6

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:02 pm

Your the best !!

Now quit it with the mocking!! I did fall off the soapbox and landed on my you no what. And logically speaking its not funny.

:sneaky:

ZAP · Post by **ZAP** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:00 pm

AussiePam;1297603 wrote: Your the best !!

Now quit it with the mocking!! I did fall off the soapbox and landed on my you no what. And logically speaking its not funny.

:sneaky:

:yh_rotfl Well, alors . . .er caramba! I'm sorry for the rotfl little guy. . .but you mean to say you hoppethed offeth yore soapbox and landethed on you're you-knoweth-what?

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:40 pm

Exactement! Arse over elbow!!

Amythest · Post by **Amythest** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:49 pm

How can anyone with such linguistic genius profess to have "street cred"?

Pam. Are you slummin'?!:yh_rotfl

Richard Bell · Post by **Richard Bell** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:43 pm

AussiePam;1297603 wrote: Your the best !!

erm...

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:34 pm

I can only repeat:

Beware the Ides of March

Attached files

Amythest · Post by **Amythest** » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:38 am

So Who's gonna die?:yh_rotfl

Are Brutus's and Cassius's spirits wandering amidst our modern leaders?Have they morphed into a Leprechan and he's looking to take back his pot o' Gold? Is he going to share this time?

Somethin's gotta GIVE!:-5