A Letter To The Red States

[CVX]

Written By A Woman In New York

Posted on The Daily Show Web site

12-8-4



Sorry, I try not to deluge people with my ramblings. But I had to write this and, having written it, had to send it. Even though I don't know anyone I can send it to (without alienating my Republican in-laws, who are the only "middle country" people I know.)



I am writing this letter to the people in the red states in the middle of the country -- the people who voted for George W. Bush. I am writing this letter because I don't think we know each other.



So I'll make an introduction. I am a New Yorker who voted for John Kerry. I used to live in California, and if I still lived there, I would vote for Kerry. I used to live in Washington, DC, and if I still lived there, I would vote for Kerry. Kerry won in all three of those regions.



Maybe you want to know more about me. Or maybe not; maybe you think you know me already. You think I am some anti-American anarchist because I dislike George W. Bush. You think that I am immoral and anti-family, because I support women's reproductive freedom and gay rights. You think that I am dangerous, and even evil, because I do not abide by your religious beliefs.



Maybe you are content to think that, to write me off as a "liberal" -- the dreaded "L" word -- and rejoice that your candidate has triumphed over evil, immoral, anti-American, anti-family people like me. But maybe you are still curious. So here goes: this is who I am.



I am a New Yorker. I was here, in my apartment downtown, on September 11th. I watched the Towers burn from the roof of my building. I went inside so that I couldn't see them when they fell. I had friends who were inside. I have a friend who still has nightmares about watching people jump and fall from the Towers. He will never be the same. How many people like him do you know? People that can't sit in a restaurant without plotting an escape route, in case it blows up?



I am a worker. I work across the street from the Citigroup Center, which the government told us is a "target" of terrorism. Later, we found out they were relaying on very old information, but it was already too late. They had given me bad dreams again. The subway stop near my office was crowded with bomb-sniffing dogs, policemen in heavy protective gear, soldiers. Now, every time I enter or exit my office, all of my possessions are X-rayed to make sure I don't have any weapons. How often are you stopped by a soldier with a bomb-sniffing dog outside your office?



I am a neighbor. I have a neighbor who is a 9/11 widow. She has two children. My husband does odd jobs for her now, like building bookshelves. Things her husband should do. He uses her husband's tools, and the two little girls tell him, "Those are our daddy's tools." How many 9/11 widows and orphans do you know? How often do you fill in for their dead loved ones?



I am a taxpayer. I worked my butt off to get where I did, and so did my parents. My parents saved and borrowed and sent me to college. I worked my way through graduate school. I won a full tuition scholarship to law school. All for the privilege of working 2,600 hours last year. That works out to a 50 hour week, every week, without any vacation days at all. I get to work by 9 am and rarely leave before 9 pm. I eat dinner at my office much more often than I eat dinner at home. My husband and I paid over $70,000 in federal income tax last year. At some point in the future, we will have to pay much more -- once this country faces its deficit and the impossible burden of Social Security. In fact, the areas of the country that supported Kerry -- New York, California, Illinois, Massachusetts -- they are the financial centers of the nation. They are the tax base of this country. How much did you pay, Kansas? How much did you contribute to this government you support, Alabama? How much of this war in Iraq did you pay for?



I am a liberal. The funny part is, liberals have this reputation for living in Never-Neverland, being idealists, not being sensible. But let me tell you how I see the world: I see America as one nation in a world of nations. Therefore, I think we should try to get along with other nations. I see that gay people exist. Therefore, I think they should be allowed to exist, and be treated the same as other people. I see ways in which women are not allowed to control their own bodies. Therefore, I think we should give women more control over their bodies. I see that people have awful diseases. Therefore, I think we should enable scientists to try to cure them. I see that we have a Constitution. Therefore, I think it should be upheld. I see that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Therefore, I think that Iraq was not an imminent danger to me. It seems so pragmatic to me. How do you see the world? Do you really think voting against gay marriage will keep people from being gay? Would you really prefer that people continue to die from Parkinson's disease? Do you really not care about the Constitutional rights of political detainees? Would you really have supported the war if you knew the truth, or would you have wanted to spend more of our money on health care, job training, terrorism preparedness?



I am an American. I have an American flag flying outside my home. I love my home more than anything. I love that I grew up right outside New York City. I first went to the Statue of Liberty with my 5th grade class, and my mom and dad took me to the Empire State Building when I was 8. I love taking the subway to Yankee Stadium. I loved living in Washington DC and going on dates to the Lincoln Memorial. It is because I love this country so much that I argue with my political opponents as much I do.



I am not safe. I never feel safe. My in-laws live in a small town in Ohio, and that town has received more federal funding, per capita, for terrorism preparedness than New York City has. I take subways and buses every day. I work in a skyscraper across the street from a "target." I have emergency supplies and a spare pair of sneakers in my desk, in case somethng happens while I'm at work. Do you? How many times a month do you worry that your subway is going to blow up? When you hear sirens on the street, do you run to the window to make sure everything is okay? When you hear an airplane, do you flinch? Do you dread beautiful, blue-skied September days? I don't know a single New Yorker who doesn't spend the month of September on tip-toes, superstitiously praying for rain so we don't have to relive that beautiful, blue-skied day.



I am lonely. I feel that we, as a nation, have alienated all our friends and further provoked our enemies. I feel unprotected. Most of all I feel alienated from my fellow citizens, because I don't understand what you are thinking. You voted for a man who started a war in Iraq for no reason, against the wishes of the entire world. You voted for a man whose lack of foresight and inability to plan has led to massive insurgencies in Iraq, where weapons are disappearing into the hands of terrorists. You voted for a man who let Osama Bin Laden escape into the hills of Afghanistan so that he could start that war in Iraq. You voted for a man who doesn't want to let people love who they want to love; doesn't want to let doctors cure their patients; doesn't want to let women rule their destinies. I don't understand why you voted for this man. For me, it is not enough that he is personable; it is not enough that he seems like one of the guys. Why did you vote for him? Why did you elect a man that lied to us in order to convince us to go to war? (Ten years ago you were incensed when our president lied about his sex life; you thought it was an impeachable offense.) Why did you elect a leader who thinks that strength cannot include diplomacy or international cooperation? Why did you elect a man who did nothing except run away and hide on September 11?



Most of all, I am terrified. I mean daily, I am afraid that I will not survive this. I am afraid that I will lose my husband, that I will never have children, that I will never grow old and watch the sunset in a backyard of my own. I am afraid that my career -- which should end with a triumphant and good-natured roast at a retirement party in 2035 -- will be cut short by an attack on me and my colleagues, as we sit sending emails and making phone calls one ordinary afternoon. Is your life at stake? Are you terrified?



I don't think you are. I don't think you realize what you have done. And if anything happens to me or the people I love, I blame you. I wanted you to know that.

[xlt66]

That was a long piece and it didn't say anything inspiring. It did strengthen my belief that liberals really do consider themselves victims.

I don't think you are. I don't think you realize what you have done. And if anything happens to me or the people I love, I blame you. I wanted you to know that.


Oh please. Give all of us a break. Well, I blame you for anything that happens to me.

[A Karenina]

xlt66, surely you can do better than that? I'd really like to hear you respond to the questions the letter posed with clear and honest answers. Sincerely.

[anastrophe]

i don't get it. The Daily Show is a fake news show. i went to the site but couldn't find the letter.



in any event, the letter is pathetic. blame. that's what it boils down to. you don't agree with how she interprets the world, and you get blamed for her interpretation. great. real 'coming together' attitude.

[weeder]

CVX wrote: Written By A Woman In New York

Posted on The Daily Show Web site

12-8-4



Sorry, I try not to deluge people with my ramblings. But I had to write this and, having written it, had to send it. Even though I don't know anyone I can send it to (without alienating my Republican in-laws, who are the only "middle country" people I know.)



I am writing this letter to the people in the red states in the middle of the country -- the people who voted for George W. Bush. I am writing this letter because I don't think we know each other.



So I'll make an introduction. I am a New Yorker who voted for John Kerry. I used to live in California, and if I still lived there, I would vote for Kerry. I used to live in Washington, DC, and if I still lived there, I would vote for Kerry. Kerry won in all three of those regions.



Maybe you want to know more about me. Or maybe not; maybe you think you know me already. You think I am some anti-American anarchist because I dislike George W. Bush. You think that I am immoral and anti-family, because I support women's reproductive freedom and gay rights. You think that I am dangerous, and even evil, because I do not abide by your religious beliefs.



Maybe you are content to think that, to write me off as a "liberal" -- the dreaded "L" word -- and rejoice that your candidate has triumphed over evil, immoral, anti-American, anti-family people like me. But maybe you are still curious. So here goes: this is who I am.



I am a New Yorker. I was here, in my apartment downtown, on September 11th. I watched the Towers burn from the roof of my building. I went inside so that I couldn't see them when they fell. I had friends who were inside. I have a friend who still has nightmares about watching people jump and fall from the Towers. He will never be the same. How many people like him do you know? People that can't sit in a restaurant without plotting an escape route, in case it blows up?



I am a worker. I work across the street from the Citigroup Center, which the government told us is a "target" of terrorism. Later, we found out they were relaying on very old information, but it was already too late. They had given me bad dreams again. The subway stop near my office was crowded with bomb-sniffing dogs, policemen in heavy protective gear, soldiers. Now, every time I enter or exit my office, all of my possessions are X-rayed to make sure I don't have any weapons. How often are you stopped by a soldier with a bomb-sniffing dog outside your office?



I am a neighbor. I have a neighbor who is a 9/11 widow. She has two children. My husband does odd jobs for her now, like building bookshelves. Things her husband should do. He uses her husband's tools, and the two little girls tell him, "Those are our daddy's tools." How many 9/11 widows and orphans do you know? How often do you fill in for their dead loved ones?



I am a taxpayer. I worked my butt off to get where I did, and so did my parents. My parents saved and borrowed and sent me to college. I worked my way through graduate school. I won a full tuition scholarship to law school. All for the privilege of working 2,600 hours last year. That works out to a 50 hour week, every week, without any vacation days at all. I get to work by 9 am and rarely leave before 9 pm. I eat dinner at my office much more often than I eat dinner at home. My husband and I paid over $70,000 in federal income tax last year. At some point in the future, we will have to pay much more -- once this country faces its deficit and the impossible burden of Social Security. In fact, the areas of the country that supported Kerry -- New York, California, Illinois, Massachusetts -- they are the financial centers of the nation. They are the tax base of this country. How much did you pay, Kansas? How much did you contribute to this government you support, Alabama? How much of this war in Iraq did you pay for?



I am a liberal. The funny part is, liberals have this reputation for living in Never-Neverland, being idealists, not being sensible. But let me tell you how I see the world: I see America as one nation in a world of nations. Therefore, I think we should try to get along with other nations. I see that gay people exist. Therefore, I think they should be allowed to exist, and be treated the same as other people. I see ways in which women are not allowed to control their own bodies. Therefore, I think we should give women more control over their bodies. I see that people have awful diseases. Therefore, I think we should enable scientists to try to cure them. I see that we have a Constitution. Therefore, I think it should be upheld. I see that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Therefore, I think that Iraq was not an imminent danger to me. It seems so pragmatic to me. How do you see the world? Do you really think voting against gay marriage will keep people from being gay? Would you really prefer that people continue to die from Parkinson's disease? Do you really not care about the Constitutional rights of political detainees? Would you really have supported the war if you knew the truth, or would you have wanted to spend more of our money on health care, job training, terrorism preparedness?



I am an American. I have an American flag flying outside my home. I love my home more than anything. I love that I grew up right outside New York City. I first went to the Statue of Liberty with my 5th grade class, and my mom and dad took me to the Empire State Building when I was 8. I love taking the subway to Yankee Stadium. I loved living in Washington DC and going on dates to the Lincoln Memorial. It is because I love this country so much that I argue with my political opponents as much I do.



I am not safe. I never feel safe. My in-laws live in a small town in Ohio, and that town has received more federal funding, per capita, for terrorism preparedness than New York City has. I take subways and buses every day. I work in a skyscraper across the street from a "target." I have emergency supplies and a spare pair of sneakers in my desk, in case somethng happens while I'm at work. Do you? How many times a month do you worry that your subway is going to blow up? When you hear sirens on the street, do you run to the window to make sure everything is okay? When you hear an airplane, do you flinch? Do you dread beautiful, blue-skied September days? I don't know a single New Yorker who doesn't spend the month of September on tip-toes, superstitiously praying for rain so we don't have to relive that beautiful, blue-skied day.



I am lonely. I feel that we, as a nation, have alienated all our friends and further provoked our enemies. I feel unprotected. Most of all I feel alienated from my fellow citizens, because I don't understand what you are thinking. You voted for a man who started a war in Iraq for no reason, against the wishes of the entire world. You voted for a man whose lack of foresight and inability to plan has led to massive insurgencies in Iraq, where weapons are disappearing into the hands of terrorists. You voted for a man who let Osama Bin Laden escape into the hills of Afghanistan so that he could start that war in Iraq. You voted for a man who doesn't want to let people love who they want to love; doesn't want to let doctors cure their patients; doesn't want to let women rule their destinies. I don't understand why you voted for this man. For me, it is not enough that he is personable; it is not enough that he seems like one of the guys. Why did you vote for him? Why did you elect a man that lied to us in order to convince us to go to war? (Ten years ago you were incensed when our president lied about his sex life; you thought it was an impeachable offense.) Why did you elect a leader who thinks that strength cannot include diplomacy or international cooperation? Why did you elect a man who did nothing except run away and hide on September 11?



Most of all, I am terrified. I mean daily, I am afraid that I will not survive this. I am afraid that I will lose my husband, that I will never have children, that I will never grow old and watch the sunset in a backyard of my own. I am afraid that my career -- which should end with a triumphant and good-natured roast at a retirement party in 2035 -- will be cut short by an attack on me and my colleagues, as we sit sending emails and making phone calls one ordinary afternoon. Is your life at stake? Are you terrified?



I don't think you are. I don't think you realize what you have done. And if anything happens to me or the people I love, I blame you. I wanted you to know that.Cvx Your post gave me goose bumps. I am also a lfelong New Yorker..... very proud of that. I left New York eight years ago,,,, went to live in

the upper south, last year I came down further south. Leaving New York was an

incredible eye opener. New Yorkers who never leave, never experience how different the thinking is in other states in our country. Most choices are based on religious beliefs or on some family tradition of sticking to one party or another.

Repubican, Democratic etc.... I am not great at discussing politics, However. I am

knowledgeable enough to be frightened of any government leader who is a war monger. I also understand that we have put the fate of our future in the hands

of mad men. The problem ( it seems to me) is that many states in the United States are 30 years behind the times. Poor levels of education, poverty, small minded thinking, and fear have kept the population in a position where they are

not equipt to make decisions. Many people in our country are more afraid of

Northerners than they are of terrorists. Because we are the troublemakers who are right under their noses. September 11 is like Raiders of the lost Ark. Some

fantasy horror that happened, some story that was unsettling at the time.. but then fades away. I have always known that people in number have the power to change things. Ive tried to convay that message to groups during the course of my life.Unfortunately they dont believe it, or its too much trouble. The most frightening reality to me is that I believe our government leaders want the bulk of our population to remain crippled. When people get up every day concerned

with keeping their heat bill paid, finding some work that will pay the car payment

to keep them getting to the job, that keeps the heat bill paid....... there isnt room

in their lives to spend time gathering information to make decisions that change anything. Just go with the flow.... Put the fate of yourself and your children into

the hands of someone else. Buy into the crap of all the things you are promised

believe that whoever it is running the show has the best interests of the people at heart. Why is it that we the country " That can do anything??????? cant clean

up the drug problem here? Cant come up with a solution? Because its good for the bulk of the population to remain stymed and doped up. So a Handful of

arrogant, power hungry individuals can make the decisions that risk the lives of

our nation and the world. Give them more graphic television shows like Nip and Tuck.. to keep them distracte and amused. More choices at Mcdonalds so they think they have The Good Life.... while we plot the course of their lives.And of course I have to say... I have always been proud to be an american, have been very greatful to be free. Have told my children how different it is in other countrys

how grateful they should be... But recently we have lost the ball. My heart bleeds for the mothers who have lost their son and daughters in this latest war.

I have always known that I would take my sons to the end of the earth before Id let some suit decide that they were being shipped off to some desert to die.

I was sitting at a counter in a kitchen.. in the beautiful Shenendoah Valley when

those planes hit the World Trade Center. I will never forget it as long as I live.

My baby sister who is also an attorney in New Yor had taken a deposition up there the previous day. So in the days following, of course I did a lot of thinking about fate. In the aftermath beginning to understand how life as we have known it is forever changed.... I realized that my dream of going to see many other countries, was destroyed. Thank God for people like you. Who not only have the ability, but more importantly the courage to speak your mind. Uderstand though

that they do not understand what they have done.

[Clint]

I’m afraid, I’m lonely, I’m not safe, Im terrified, I, me, I, me, I, me... me me liberal.

I don’t have a fall on my face before the president mentality. I’m just glad we have the president we have, given the choices.

Reality is something we have to face. The reality is that we live in a dangerous world that didn’t emerge all of a sudden in the first 8 months of George Bush’s presidency. The fear of getting someone hurt or losing the political edge allowed our enemies to strengthen to the point they could do what they have done. They didn’t have any way of knowing George Bush would react any differently than the previous president.

You will die. I will die. That’s life. Some would prefer to die begging their enemy not to hurt them. Thank you but that’s not acceptable to me.

Oh, a little about me. I've put my life where my mouth is.

[anastrophe]

weeder wrote: Cvx Your post gave me goose bumps. I am also a lfelong New Yorker..... very proud of that. I left New York eight years ago,,,, went to live in

the upper south, last year I came down further south. Leaving New York was an

incredible eye opener. New Yorkers who never leave, never experience how different the thinking is in other states in our country. Most choices are based on religious beliefs or on some family tradition of sticking to one party or another.

Repubican, Democratic etc.... I am not great at discussing politics, However. I am

knowledgeable enough to be frightened of any government leader who is a war monger. I also understand that we have put the fate of our future in the hands

of mad men. The problem ( it seems to me) is that many states in the United States are 30 years behind the times. Poor levels of education, poverty, small minded thinking, and fear have kept the population in a position where they are

not equipt to make decisions.
sigh. there you have it. the only possible way someone could _not_ lean to the liberal left is that they have poor levels of education - they are small minded thinkers. of course. how foolish of me to think that half of this country's population is _not_ mentally retarded for having voted not to put kerry in the white house.





Many people in our country are more afraid of

Northerners than they are of terrorists. Because we are the troublemakers who are right under their noses. September 11 is like Raiders of the lost Ark. Some

fantasy horror that happened, some story that was unsettling at the time.. but then fades away.
contrast the above with:





My heart bleeds for the mothers who have lost their son and daughters in this latest war.
so, 9/11 was a fantasy horror, that quickly faded away for you, apparently. does your heart not bleed for the mothers (and fathers, seems you left that out) who lost their sons and daughters in the actual horror of 9/11?





I have always known that people in number have the power to change things. Ive tried to convay that message to groups during the course of my life.Unfortunately they dont believe it, or its too much trouble. The most frightening reality to me is that I believe our government leaders want the bulk of our population to remain crippled. When people get up every day concerned

with keeping their heat bill paid, finding some work that will pay the car payment

to keep them getting to the job, that keeps the heat bill paid....... there isnt room

in their lives to spend time gathering information to make decisions that change anything. Just go with the flow.... Put the fate of yourself and your children into

the hands of someone else. Buy into the crap of all the things you are promised

believe that whoever it is running the show has the best interests of the people at heart. Why is it that we the country " That can do anything??????? cant clean

up the drug problem here? Cant come up with a solution? Because its good for the bulk of the population to remain stymed and doped up. So a Handful of

arrogant, power hungry individuals can make the decisions that risk the lives of

our nation and the world. Give them more graphic television shows like Nip and Tuck.. to keep them distracte and amused. More choices at Mcdonalds so they think they have The Good Life.... while we plot the course of their lives.And of course I have to say... I have always been proud to be an american, have been very greatful to be free. Have told my children how different it is in other countrys

how grateful they should be... But recently we have lost the ball.
let me ask you this. if bill clinton were president right now, would you still maintain all that you have written above? because nothing you've written above is any different from how things were during mr. clinton's administration. or are you suggesting that there was no drug problem during his administration, and that graphic television and mcdonalds were merely benign, normal parts of life during his time in office?





My heart bleeds for the mothers who have lost their son and daughters in this latest war.

I have always known that I would take my sons to the end of the earth before Id let some suit decide that they were being shipped off to some desert to die.
you are aware that we have a volunteer military, are you not? nobody has been drafted into service in nearly thirty years.



notwithstanding the government's calling-up of aging reserves recently, which is a pretty heinous abuse of the system. but still - so 'suit' decided to ship anyone off to the desert to die. amazingly enough, the *vast* majority of those serving in iraq and afghanistan *want* to be there. i know, incredible, but true. of course, you'll never hear their stories on the news. someone wants to serve their country? nah. they've been hoodwinked. there can be no other explanation, right?





I was sitting at a counter in a kitchen.. in the beautiful Shenendoah Valley when

those planes hit the World Trade Center. I will never forget it as long as I live.

My baby sister who is also an attorney in New Yor had taken a deposition up there the previous day. So in the days following, of course I did a lot of thinking about fate. In the aftermath beginning to understand how life as we have known it is forever changed.... I realized that my dream of going to see many other countries, was destroyed. Thank God for people like you. Who not only have the ability, but more importantly the courage to speak your mind. Uderstand though

that they do not understand what they have done.
i'm sorry, but that's deeply offensive to me. this is as divisive as the original post. lip service to how we are all americans whether we disagree or not - it's more about how those who do not agree with you are deluded, stupid, misguided, or hoodwinked by the vast corporate-military-right wing-neocon-conspiracy.



and my post here, of course, is no better.



i really wonder if it will ever be possible for this country to get back to a time where, except for the lunatic fringe, people could be republican or democrat without there being this great chasm between our world views.

[A Karenina]

Clint wrote: I’m afraid, I’m lonely, I’m not safe, Im terrified, I, me, I, me, I, me... me me liberal.



I don’t have a fall on my face before the president mentality. I’m just glad we have the president we have, given the choices.



Reality is something we have to face. The reality is that we live in a dangerous world that didn’t emerge all of a sudden in the first 8 months of George Bush’s presidency. The fear of getting someone hurt or losing the political edge allowed our enemies to strengthen to the point they could do what they have done. They didn’t have any way of knowing George Bush would react any differently than the previous president.



You will die. I will die. That’s life. Some would prefer to die begging their enemy not to hurt them. Thank you but that’s not acceptable to me.



Oh, a little about me. I've put my life where my mouth is.
Have you put your life where your mouth is? I only ask this biting question because you so often affirm your faith in Christ and yet are very quick to insult and degrade others who disagree with you. It's only something to think about. Please don't answer unless you feel the need and can respond with something more insightful than name-calling.



That being said, and I agree it was a bit nasty, it's true that the only guarantee we have is that we will die. We may not get to choose much about the circumstances of our death, but we do have firm control over the circumstances of our life.



Some people approach this war with a different attitude. It's all well and fine to point out your enemy, but is there any consideration of what has made him your enemy?



Clint, you choose to die rather than "beg" for mercy. That's your right, but it isn't quite the same for everyone...and pride is a sin, isn't it?



Is it begging to deeply consider what has caused the problems we face? Would that somehow make a person weak? Is it spineless or begging to think on something and have a change of heart? I wouldn't think so, considering the bible says that the redeemed sinner is more loved. That would imply it takes a lot to have a change of heart, and that it is a postive thing.



As usual, the support for the war is not based on an open mind with clear thought in its defense, but on name calling, deriding other people's choices, and of course their political affiliation.

While you may be sick of the "me me me liberal" mentality, others are equally sick of the hypocritical hate-filled rhetoric that spews from the other side.



So, if the questions could be answered with reason, logic, and intelligence, I'd really appreciate it.

[A Karenina]

anastrophe wrote: so, 9/11 was a fantasy horror, that quickly faded away for you, apparently. does your heart not bleed for the mothers (and fathers, seems you left that out) who lost their sons and daughters in the actual horror of 9/11?
Jumping in here ~ there are still people, like myself, who are not convinced of the connection between Iraq and 9/11. If you remove this connection, even temporarily, then you can see why anti-Iraq people get so upset...We, ok I, I am feeling that the real killers are getting away with it as we goose-chase elsewhere. We all bleed for 9/11. We do it in different ways.



anastrophe wrote: and my post here, of course, is no better.
Your self-honesty is wonderful. Just thought you should know that.



anastrophe wrote: i really wonder if it will ever be possible for this country to get back to a time where, except for the lunatic fringe, people could be republican or democrat without there being this great chasm between our world views.
I don't think we ever had such a time. Any part of American history has been filled with opposing ideologies fighting for some change or other. All are despised at the time. For instance, the labor movement was heavily Socialist and we still spit on them...yet people today largely accept the notion of workers' rights. (I refer to the really obvious stuff like child labor).



What we do is to label and then condemn according to that label. I personally hope that we can progress enough to at least consider another point of view, even if it does come from an opposing party. Of course, I also hope that we can create a reasonable party that ignores the far left and far right battle.

[Clint]

A Karenina wrote: Have you put your life where your mouth is? I only ask this biting question because you so often affirm your faith in Christ and yet are very quick to insult and degrade others who disagree with you. It's only something to think about. Please don't answer unless you feel the need and can respond with something more insightful than name-calling.



That being said, and I agree it was a bit nasty, it's true that the only guarantee we have is that we will die. We may not get to choose much about the circumstances of our death, but we do have firm control over the circumstances of our life.



Some people approach this war with a different attitude. It's all well and fine to point out your enemy, but is there any consideration of what has made him your enemy?



Clint, you choose to die rather than "beg" for mercy. That's your right, but it isn't quite the same for everyone...and pride is a sin, isn't it?



Is it begging to deeply consider what has caused the problems we face? Would that somehow make a person weak? Is it spineless or begging to think on something and have a change of heart? I wouldn't think so, considering the bible says that the redeemed sinner is more loved. That would imply it takes a lot to have a change of heart, and that it is a postive thing.



As usual, the support for the war is not based on an open mind with clear thought in its defense, but on name calling, deriding other people's choices, and of course their political affiliation.

While you may be sick of the "me me me liberal" mentality, others are equally sick of the hypocritical hate-filled rhetoric that spews from the other side.



So, if the questions could be answered with reason, logic, and intelligence, I'd really appreciate it.


One of the things that irks me the most about the “me” people is that they think everyone else is motivated and responds the same way they are/do. I said I had put my life where my mouth was and you assume that because you don’t subscribe to the same definition of truth that I do, I must be lying. Even though your question doesn’t deserve an answer, the answer is “yes”. If you wish to insult me, call me a name but don’t call into question my honesty.

Just because what I say hits a nerve with you it’s “name calling”. If you are ashamed of the word “liberal” then you have a lot of recanting to do.

If you think that because I talk about my faith in Christ I’m supposed to be mushy, you don’t understand the faith you have so many opinions about. The thing I admire most about Christ is that he didn’t back down. He stood for what he said and what his mission was all the way to the cross. He didn’t beg his enemies and he didn’t compromise. What he did was totally selfless. His actions were not prideful.

I’m honored to be conversing with the “clear minded” people on this forum. I’m so tired of being in this fog of reality.

It isn’t hypocritical to support something you are willing to put your life on the line for. But then, how would you know.

[A Karenina]

Clint wrote: One of the things that irks me the most about the “me” people is that they think everyone else is motivated and responds the same way they are/do. I said I had put my life where my mouth was and you assume that because you don’t subscribe to the same definition of truth that I do, I must be lying. Even though your question doesn’t deserve an answer, the answer is “yes”. If you wish to insult me, call me a name but don’t call into question my honesty.
I am not so brutal as that. I didn't think you were lying. I felt that there is some contradiction in what you're saying. You adhere to a faith that calls people to love one another, to turn the other cheek. You're correct - my definition of loving one another is not name calling or war.



Clint wrote: Just because what I say hits a nerve with you it’s “name calling”. If you are ashamed of the word “liberal” then you have a lot of recanting to do.
"Me me me liberal" and all that came after it caused me to write about name-calling. Completely ignoring the reasons for why you believe as you do and instead attacking the person for how they feel is what bothers me.



If you look, you will see that I neither agreed nor disagreed with the original letter. I merely asked for clarification on why those who support the war feel as they do. Instead, we bicker back and forth on labels.



Frankly, I'm ashamed of both liberals and conservatives. I can't subscribe to either of them - too extreme these days.

Some call me liberal (as an epithet) because I am:

anti-death penalty,

pro-choice,

and I am concerned about the environment.



Others call me conservative (with the same rage as the liberal label) because: I resent my taxes being used to pay for other people's choices (drug clinics, alcoholics, people who don't want to work for a living),

I think people in prisons should work for their daily bread, too,

I'm not into handouts and the "gimme" attitude that is so prevalent,

I am perfectly fine with people owning guns.



And so on...In this case, I am called liberal because I am against the Iraq war. Liberals call me conservative because I am supportive of chasing down terrorists and letting justice do its job.



It doesn't really matter where I stand politically. The only reason to address it is to demonstrate how those labels shut down listening skills. Some people even go so far as to see eprsonal attacks where there are none. I don't know you. You're probably a very nice person. I have no reason to attack you - but ideas are another thing altogether.





Clint wrote: If you think that because I talk about my faith in Christ I’m supposed to be mushy, you don’t understand the faith you have so many opinions about. The thing I admire most about Christ is that he didn’t back down. He stood for what he said and what his mission was all the way to the cross. He didn’t beg his enemies and he didn’t compromise. What he did was totally selfless. His actions were not prideful.
Yes he did. I completely agree with that. He was put to a test I would never want. It wasn't about pride - it was about conviction.



But...let's look at that. In another thread you posted that people were dying in Iraq for what they believed in and you support that. In theory, so do I. Then later you posted that men would wage war over anything - including water rights.



Maybe people believe that strongly in water rights, I don't know. But I doubt Jesus would kill other people for water. I think he would've used his love for humanity, his keen intelligence, and his gifted leadership skills to find a peaceful resolution. I don't think he would've backed down on any principle he held - but I also think he was very clear about what his principles were.



I don't think you should be "mushy" because of your beliefs. I'm saying there are other types of strength besides crude warfare. I think Jesus was the living manifestation of that.



Clint wrote: It isn’t hypocritical to support something you are willing to put your life on the line for. But then, how would you know.
Your barbs are about as cute as my own, but they don't hit the mark quite the way you might like.

1) You've no idea if I've ever had my life on the line or not.

2) You've no real idea of what I believe in or if I've been tested in that area.

3) You imply that you have put your life on the line. I have no way of knowing if that's true or not.

4) You still haven't addressed the question of why you believe in Iraq so much that you would die for it.

5) Dying seems to be your measure of hypocrisy. I measure it in living, which is really much harder than dying.



Well, I think we've shown that we will never be able to converse civilly. I think you are seeing personal attacks where there isn't one, and counter-attacking rather than addressing any point I try to make. Your personal dislike of me is greater than your ability to think impartially. To each his own.

[Clint]

A Karenina wrote: Your barbs are about as cute as my own, but they don't hit the mark quite the way you might like.


I don’t know if I like you or not. I do know that I don’t like many of the positions you take and I don’t like the tone you use. You say you don’t like spending tax dollars on other people’s choices but my guess is you don’t mind spending tax dollars on abortion. We could argue on and on.

I’m a combat veteran but you can still choose not to believe me. That makes this even more futile.

As far as my barbs are concerned... I think they got the job done.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

[A Karenina]

Clint wrote: I don’t know if I like you or not. I do know that I don’t like many of the positions you take and I don’t like the tone you use. You say you don’t like spending tax dollars on other people’s choices but my guess is you don’t mind spending tax dollars on abortion. We could argue on and on.
Actually, I supported the decision to quit using tax dollars to fund abortions. If people are morally against something as important as abortion, why should they be forced to pay for it?

I think I posted that under the abortion thread at this site, but I could be wrong.



My "tone". People have read my posts in the past and then ended up talking to me on the phone. They are usually very surprised by my 'tone' and by my voice itself. I've never had those people get mad about my posts afterwards, although we would still disagree very passionately from time to time.

When I get passionate about something, the sentences come faster. But I don't raise my voice, nor is it mean. It's pretty level and even for these discussions. I use emotional inflection when I'm joking around.



Anyway, there does seem to be a fair amount of people who read "tone" into a post that I never see - since I know how I sound, and how I mean the words.

I'll give this point to you, but would hope you could begin to try reading my other posts without any emotional inflection, just to see if you still pick up tone.



Clint wrote: I’m a combat veteran but you can still choose not to believe me. That makes this even more futile.
Let's call it medium futile. LOL. There is no reason for me to think you'd lie about it.



Here's my biggest problem with it all, Jesus lived in a country occupied by Romans. I have never come across anything he said or did that would encourage people to take up arms, even for their own freedom. In fact, when confronted by an angry mob, he told the crowd to "rend unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" in reference to the high taxes.



I don't understand what law or what precedent is being used by Christians in order to support a war when the bible is full of exactly the opposite advice, rules, guidelines, whatever.



I used to think I was a pacifist, but now I know I'm not. I would support any war that was a direct attack on us. I can't support it when we attacked them, I can't find the connection to 9/11, and still terrorists run around collecting even more volunteer killers.



I realize you disagree...I'm asking why that is.



Clint wrote: As far as my barbs are concerned... I think they got the job done.
Welllll...if you're happy, then good news. All I did was a bunch of rambling about myself, and how interesting can that be? Even in this post, you're making assumptions about me, so it really hasn't done any good that I can see.



Clint wrote: Enjoy the rest of your weekend.Thanks, and you as well.

[anastrophe]

A Karenina wrote: My "tone". People have read my posts in the past and then ended up talking to me on the phone. They are usually very surprised by my 'tone' and by my voice itself. I've never had those people get mad about my posts afterwards, although we would still disagree very passionately from time to time.

When I get passionate about something, the sentences come faster. But I don't raise my voice, nor is it mean. It's pretty level and even for these discussions. I use emotional inflection when I'm joking around.

try being me sometime. people read my stuff and - those who don't know my rather greek name - expect that they'll be meeting some teutonic succubus with an ak47.

[A Karenina]

anastrophe wrote: try being me sometime. people read my stuff and - those who don't know my rather greek name - expect that they'll be meeting some teutonic succubus with an ak47.
:wah: :wah: You're hilarious! But I feel ya on that one!

[Clint]

A Karenina wrote: Actually, I supported the decision to quit using tax dollars to fund abortions. If people are morally against something as important as abortion, why should they be forced to pay for it?

I think I posted that under the abortion thread at this site, but I could be wrong.



My "tone". People have read my posts in the past and then ended up talking to me on the phone. They are usually very surprised by my 'tone' and by my voice itself. I've never had those people get mad about my posts afterwards, although we would still disagree very passionately from time to time.

When I get passionate about something, the sentences come faster. But I don't raise my voice, nor is it mean. It's pretty level and even for these discussions. I use emotional inflection when I'm joking around.



Anyway, there does seem to be a fair amount of people who read "tone" into a post that I never see - since I know how I sound, and how I mean the words.

I'll give this point to you, but would hope you could begin to try reading my other posts without any emotional inflection, just to see if you still pick up tone.





Let's call it medium futile. LOL. There is no reason for me to think you'd lie about it.



Here's my biggest problem with it all, Jesus lived in a country occupied by Romans. I have never come across anything he said or did that would encourage people to take up arms, even for their own freedom. In fact, when confronted by an angry mob, he told the crowd to "rend unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" in reference to the high taxes.



I don't understand what law or what precedent is being used by Christians in order to support a war when the bible is full of exactly the opposite advice, rules, guidelines, whatever.



I used to think I was a pacifist, but now I know I'm not. I would support any war that was a direct attack on us. I can't support it when we attacked them, I can't find the connection to 9/11, and still terrorists run around collecting even more volunteer killers.



I realize you disagree...I'm asking why that is.





Welllll...if you're happy, then good news. All I did was a bunch of rambling about myself, and how interesting can that be? Even in this post, you're making assumptions about me, so it really hasn't done any good that I can see.



Thanks, and you as well.


Well I must say (reluctantly) that you are more balanced than I had thought. It a appears that you do thinking and decision making outside the mould I had placed you in. I’ve been violating my own strong belief that people shouldn’t be labeled. I presumed too much.

As far as what the Bible (spelled with an uppercase B as with any book title) says about war, I am only able to give my own understanding. I don’t know of any instance where self defense that results in death is spoken against. There are also many references to God sending people into war. King David was lauded as a great warrior. There seems to be a clear distinction between taking a life for selfish purposes or out of anger and war, that is entered into by one nation to nobly protect its people against the treats or aggressions of another nation.

I think the connections between 9/11 and Iraq are becoming more and more evident. One of the clear connections is that Iraq’s head of state was paying the families of suicide bombers to encourage them. What were the men who flew the jets into the towers on 9/11 if not suicide bombers? But I would set all that aside and say there is more to our being in Iraq than retaliation for 9/11. I don’t think we are there to get even.

There are hundreds of thousands of Islamic extremists in that part of the world that are committed to seeing us dead. They want us dead because of our way of life for sure but more than that, they want us dead because we are not their brand of Muslim (Atheists, Pantheists and Agnostics included). If they murder all of us they will turn on their own who don't share their extreme views. Not all Muslims want to kill off all other beliefs or non beliefs. There are just so many of them in that part of the world that do, that they can no longer be ignored.

Iraq is strategically important. I think it’s a beachhead we must hold. It will be a strategic launching point to face down others who may try their hand against us. We have already seen some in that region become more reasonable (Libya) because of our presence there.

The extremists interpret Mohammad’s teachings to be that we are their greatest enemy but that they must deal with the nearest enemy first. In Iraq we are their nearest enemy and their greatest enemy. By following their theology they will be more likely to fight us in Iraq than here.

I can’t remember the Yale professor’s name who said that Iraq has become like flypaper, drawing in and capturing the terrorists. Look at what has happened. Iraq, The ancient Babylon and spawning ground for trouble in the world is once again a battleground. The murderers are going after their second worst enemy who is now also their closest enemy.

Those who want to murder us don’t care if we are kind to them or not. They don’t care if we give them gifts, feed their children or pave their streets. They simply want us dead or converted to their brand of Islam. They will either try to do murder our equipped and ready soldiers in Iraq or they will murder innocent people on the streets of home.

There are innocent Iraqi people caught in the middle. I ache when I think of them. Sadly there has never been a war when innocent people didn’t have to pay an unfair price. That’s not to say it is a good thing. It also occurs to me that if they really opposed the radicals within, they would have done somethig to get rid of them.

I don’t have any specific information to prove it but I think our leaders have reasoned that war, if for noble purposes, is to protect the people they are responsible for. I seems to me there is no better place to do it than on a battlefield that only exposes those on our side, who have volunteered for duty in harms way.

[A Karenina]

Clint, wow!! I am touched and impressed by your thoughtful reply. :-6



I am also dead tired with a mushy brain, so I won't be writing much in the way of a response. Plus, I want to show you some respect for answering so honestly - and that might be best expressed by simply thinking about your post. I wanted greater understanding. Thank you for helping me get there.



I am happy that I'm no longer labeled, and that perhaps we can have some good discussions about things in the future. I will admit (again) that I tend to confuse a lot people because I don't seem to fit into any of the existing theories. I'm just a weird, odd woman. LOL



Ok, one brief thought on the post because it's the strongest one I have right now. Maybe the move by Bush was clever - to centralize terrorists into one place. I have felt that this war only increases the numbers of people willing to die fighting us, and haven't been able to see much else so far. Your post has given me some food for thought.



One thing is certain. We both agree whole heartedly on aching for the innocent people. We also, perhaps coldly, agree that sometimes hardship is a requirement to immense positive change.



Have an awesome night, and thanks again.

[jahamaa]

What got me about the letter to the red states was the writer bemoaning others drawing conclusions about her yet look at the conclusions she drew about the thinking of those living in the red states.