Is the new Arizona Law Racial Profiling?

[Lon]

This is a much needed law in my opinion and I can't believe how much opposition there has been.



Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill

[hoppy]

Extreme circumstances call for extreme measures. All that's required is to be legal and carry proof. You carry a drivers license to prove you are legal to drive AND that you have a residence, don't you? A SS card and insurance cards. If the people in question don't want to comply with our laws, head on out of here.

[ZAP]

Lon;1305632 wrote: This is a much needed law in my opinion and I can't believe how much opposition there has been.



Ariz. governor signs immigration enforcement bill


This is very much needed! California should listen up.

"Illegal is illegal," said Pearce, a driving force on the issue in Arizona. "We'll have less crime. We'll have lower taxes. We'll have safer neighborhoods. We'll have shorter lines in the emergency rooms. We'll have smaller classrooms."

I live 15 miles from the Mexico border. When I took a stress test at a local hospital 2 years ago they gave me a form letter, explaining that I would be radioactive for a while and I might set off the sensors at the border crossing because of the test & I should show the crossing guard the paper so I could get back into Mexico. I told her I live on this side. The implication was that most of the patients did not live on this side. I had noticed when I took these tests that I was the only one speaking English. Some of these people may have been US citizens. I'm sure most were not. Two were prisoners from the three prisons in our immediate area.

I've heard stories of our citizens attempting to get into classes at the community college, only to find them already filled and a lot of these are non-residents, many of whom will drop out before completing the semester.

[LarsMac]

The law, itself, is not "racial profiling" but I suspect that there will be some law enforcement personnel accused of it, when they tend to apply it to people who "look like" they are from "South of the Border" and don't speak English.

I am sure that if they stop people on the streets, just to check their papers, they will be accused of, and probably rightfully so, racial profiling.

If they request documentation from EVERY person they encounter at a traffic stop, or at any other call they are dispatched to, then it will be much more difficult to play the race card.

[ZAP]

LarsMac;1305745 wrote: The law, itself, is not "racial profiling" but I suspect that there will be some law enforcement personnel accused of it, when they tend to apply it to people who "look like" they are from "South of the Border" and don't speak English.

I am sure that if they stop people on the streets, just to check their papers, they will be accused of, and probably rightfully so, racial profiling.

If they request documentation from EVERY person they encounter at a traffic stop, or at any other call they are dispatched to, then it will be much more difficult to play the race card.


Here's the thing, Lars. I live in Imperial County, very close to the border. Our towns are very similar to the border towns & cities in Arizona & Texas. I double-checked our countywide demographics before posting this. Whites of Hispanic origin is 76.8% while whites, non Hispanic is 16.3%. I was shocked to see it that high because when I go to Walmart, Lowes, Sears, the hospitals, doctors' offices, car repair shops, etc., I am usually the only non hispanic in the place. In other words there aren't very many pedestrians or vehicles with drivers that don't look Hispanic. I don't see how they can be concerned with racial profiling.

[CARLA]

NOT profiling, living in San Diego 15 minutes from the border I can only hope California law makers are listening this is long overdue. :-6

The problem is out of control for all border towns and cities, has been for a very long time. It has to change and unfortunately the people here illegally won't like it.



It's simple we can't go to their country and buy land, get free medical services, food, money, an housing off their goverment systems why should they get it here. Sorry the borders need to be closed to illegals, if you want to come in legally great do it the right way.



Our medi-cal, medical systems serves mostly people here illegally or from other countries, stop buy an office one day, you will be shocked, go to an Emergency Room see who is sitting in them, once again you will be shocked. Try to get your caucasian legal citizen child into any school you will have to wait till all the illegals, and kids from other countries get first choice, your child most likely won't get in no matter how hard you try.

If you can't tell I'm sick and tired of the RACE card being called earn your citizenship, or go back to your home country let them take care of you.

[ZAP]

CARLA;1305756 wrote: NOT profiling, living in San Diego 15 minutes from the border I can only hope California law makers are listening this is long overdue. :-6

The problem is out of control for all border towns and cities, has been for a very long time. It has to change and unfortunately the people here illegally won't like it.



It's simple we can't go to their country and buy land, get free medical services, food, money, an housing off their goverment systems why should they get it here. Sorry the borders need to be closed to illegals, if you want to come in legally great do it the right way.



Our medi-cal, medical systems serves mostly people here illegally or from other countries, stop buy an office one day, you will be shocked, go to an Emergency Room see who is sitting in them, once again you will be shocked. Try to get your caucausian legal citizen child into any school you will have to wait till all the illegals, and kids from other countries get first choice, your child most likely won't get in no matter how hard you try.

If you can't tell I'm sick and tired of the RACE card being called earn your citizenship, or go back to your home country let them take care of you.


I am in complete agreement and SO glad to hear you say it!

[CARLA]

My number one peeve is illegal pregnant woment coming across the border to have their child born in the States so the baby is a citizen, baby gets free everything immediately and the mother gets to stay free everything for her as well, then brings the entire family up and they get free everything on my tax dollars immediately.



Not right and it has to stop.

[ZAP]

Well said, Carla!

When I was a real estate broker here in the 80's & 90's had a horrible problem with that very thing and with unruly, unsupervised kids ruining apartments that I managed for other people. This one kid ran water hoses into the A/C's of other tenants, ran across the roof at midnight, stuff like that. ANNND the mother wasn't paying her rent. I spoke to her welfare worker (which she got on after I'd rented it to her) to try to get her out. The worker said they couldn't tell her how to spend her money, I'd have to go through a lengthy court procedure to get her out. I said, "So my client who helps to pay your salary & her welfare payments must have his property destroyed while she doesn't work and supports that worthless illegal alien she's got living with her & his drug habit?" (Her boyfriend that I'd found out about.) That was the magic word--the loophole. She hadn't put him on her contract for the state aid that she was getting, so the welfare worker could do something about that. The thing is they learn how to work the system and it goes on and on and on.

[CARLA]

Exactly they know the system works, and how it work down to every detail. They tell their friends and family how to come up and and how to work it as well.



I'm a senior so for the hell of it I applied for several of the services available to seniors ie: housing etc. Guess what I'm was put on a waiting list have been on it for 5 years. I just keep my info updated as a test to see how long it will take. If I was an illegal, or from another country I would be give everything immediately.



Our system is broken and it needs fixing.

[LarsMac]

Zapata;1305754 wrote: Here's the thing, Lars. I live in Imperial County, very close to the border. Our towns are very similar to the border towns & cities in Arizona & Texas. I double-checked our countywide demographics before posting this. Whites of Hispanic origin is 76.8% while whites, non Hispanic is 16.3%. I was shocked to see it that high because when I go to Walmart, Lowes, Sears, the hospitals, doctors' offices, car repair shops, etc., I am usually the only non hispanic in the place. In other words there aren't very many pedestrians or vehicles with drivers that don't look Hispanic. I don't see how they can be concerned with racial profiling.


They will still be accused of the deed, so they need to have an established procedure that covers the parameters of enforcing the new law, so the officers can show that they are doing things "by the book"

Otherwise, we will quickly see a whole lot of such charges tying up the courts for the next few decades.

[albertpollard]

If I may stir the pot... What is WRONG with racial profiling? The PC crowd has become the ruling force. If a woman is raped...should we look for suspects among the women, so we don't sexually profile?

If a man says I was robbed by a black teenage male, is it racial profiling to look at teenage black males for the suspect?

9/11 was the result of Arabic men between the ages of 20 and 34. Think how much money would be saved if we looked for Arabic men between the ages of 20 and 34?

Unfortunately the base is spreading beyond those parameters but you get the idea!

[ZAP]

albertpollard;1306028 wrote: If I may stir the pot... What is WRONG with racial profiling? The PC crowd has become the ruling force. If a woman is raped...should we look for suspects among the women, so we don't sexually profile?

If a man says I was robbed by a black teenage male, is it racial profiling to look at teenage black males for the suspect?

9/11 was the result of Arabic men between the ages of 20 and 34. Think how much money would be saved if we looked for Arabic men between the ages of 20 and 34?

Unfortunately the base is spreading beyond those parameters but you get the idea!


Very good point. Are illegal aliens from Mexico usually Hispanic? Do those illegals have the proper papers to be in this country? Is it not reasonable to assume that most of those people pulled over or asked to show identification will look Hispanic?

Our border crossing guards still stop and question me, a blonde grandma.

[Lon]

When laws defy common sense and logic they are dead wrong in my opinion----and such is the case with "Profiling"

[Bryn Mawr]

albertpollard;1306028 wrote: If I may stir the pot... What is WRONG with racial profiling? The PC crowd has become the ruling force. If a woman is raped...should we look for suspects among the women, so we don't sexually profile?

If a man says I was robbed by a black teenage male, is it racial profiling to look at teenage black males for the suspect?

9/11 was the result of Arabic men between the ages of 20 and 34. Think how much money would be saved if we looked for Arabic men between the ages of 20 and 34?

Unfortunately the base is spreading beyond those parameters but you get the idea!


Looking for a specific person or group as a result of witness descriptions is not racial profiling. Applying different rules to complete sections of society is totally different to the cases you describe.

If the authorities have evidence that a significant proportion of crimes, acts of violence, hospital attendees and students are illegal immigrants as claimed :-

"Illegal is illegal," said Pearce, a driving force on the issue in Arizona. "We'll have less crime. We'll have lower taxes. We'll have safer neighborhoods. We'll have shorter lines in the emergency rooms. We'll have smaller classrooms."


Then why have the people they know to be illegal immigrants not been deported? If the can say, for example, that 35% of all the students in our classrooms are here illegally then why have those 35% not been arrested?

I suspect that there is much hyperbole in the man's rhetoric!

[albertpollard]

I realize the two examples are distinct and different I used them to highlight the problem. The crime was 9/11, the witnesses was the result of the investigation and they all point to Arabic males between 20 and 34....I know that is stretching it.

Are there problems resulting from illegal immigration? Sure, there are also a lot of problems from those who come in on legal visas and overstay their visit. There are also problems with people from Visa waived countries doing the same thing. Is the problem as great as stated? Probably not, but it could be.

Each state has the right and responsibility to protect it's sovereignty and viability. Arizona is doing that.

[flopstock]

I think that Arizona has put up with too much crap across their borders for those of us who are insulated in the inner states to go all moral outrage on their actions.



If it becomes standard procedure to ask every traffic stop for the same types of proof, I say go for it.



The problem with emergency rooms is a tough one. If they say that anyone over 18 that walks in has to produce the same types of proof, I say go for it. I'm thinking just having an officer stationed at reception will stop some of the illegals.



The real problem is the travel to birth and the auto citizenship that is awarded. That needs to be stopped. Now. If neither parent can produce proof of legal status, child and parent are shipped home.

[Bryn Mawr]

albertpollard;1306162 wrote: I realize the two examples are distinct and different I used them to highlight the problem. The crime was 9/11, the witnesses was the result of the investigation and they all point to Arabic males between 20 and 34....I know that is stretching it.

Are there problems resulting from illegal immigration? Sure, there are also a lot of problems from those who come in on legal visas and overstay their visit. There are also problems with people from Visa waived countries doing the same thing. Is the problem as great as stated? Probably not, but it could be.

Each state has the right and responsibility to protect it's sovereignty and viability. Arizona is doing that.


React to the real conditions, not hysterical exaggerations. If a crime has been committed then go after the criminals, not the easy targets that make you look good.

Each state also has the responsibility of protecting those who are there legally - that is not done by targeting an entire racial group because a proportion of them are there illegally.

[Saint_]

flopstock;1306171 wrote: I think that Arizona has put up with too much crap across their borders for those of us who are insulated in the inner states to go all moral outrage on their actions.


Bingo. As a native New Mexican, the place where the illegals all go after they leave Arizona, I've always said, "If you want to come to American fine, come here and be American.

Even second and third generation Hispanics in the LA area still can't speak English. Moreover, they have no intention of assimilating into our society and that's VERY bad. If a group doesn't speak the native language, then lives together in enclaves they create a "country within a country."

Here's something that I put up with on a daily basis:

The other day I had a discussion with a young man. What got me started was that he was publicly declaring to anyone who would listen that he was “Mexican.

Me: Did you just say you were Mexican?

Kid: “I’m Mexican!

Me: “Don’t you mean Mexican – American or Hispanic - American?

Kid: “No, I’m Mexican.

Me: “Were you born in Mexico?

Kid: “No, I was born here.

Me: “Then you are an American citizen. Anyone born in America is American.

Kid: (Thinks for a second) “ I’m Mexican!

Me: “Look, why did your parents come here?

Kid: “To have a better life.

Me: “As Americans? Because Americans have a higher standard of living?

Kid: “I’m Mexican.

Me: “Do you have some problem with being American?

Kid: “I’m not American, I’m Mexican.

Me: “Look, be proud of your culture, that’s your heritage, but realize that your parents wanted to be a part of America. They came here to make a dream of a better life come true as Americans. They gave birth to you here and you are also one of us, an American. You are a part of a great Union of different people all working together. Doesn’t that make you proud to be an American?!

Kid: (Looks confused for a second, then smirks) “I’m Mexican.

I have a serious problem with this. If people will not become a part of a society, they will not enjoy its rights such as voting. They other, native-speaking people will pass laws against them and exclude them.

Eventually, since the two groups do not have a common language, distrust, hatred, and fear will set in. It’s called, “Balkanization ...

and it ends in genocide.:-3

(See: Bosnian - Serbian War)

[Saint_]

Bryn Mawr;1306193 wrote:

Each state also has the responsibility of protecting those who are there legally


Why can't they do that by deporting the ones that are here illegally? that's what other countries do. As a matter of fact, Mexico's own immigration laws are FAR harsher than ours.

- that is not done by targeting an entire racial group because a proportion of them are there illegally.


What if that proportion is 90%? When do you stop calling it "illegal immigration" and start calling it "criminal invasion?"

I say one thing more: When we were a young country at the turn of the century, and had wide open spaces to fill, railroads to build and infrastructure to expand, we needed lots of manual laborers and new citizens. We welcomed everyone, tired, sick and poor, with open arms and they willingly assimilated, learned our common language, and became American.

Those days are gone. We have plenty of people right now and we don't need any more at all, especially unskilled, uneducated, untrained people. Most of the jobs in the US now involve some level of education. To add a huge, uneducated component to our population is a recipe for disaster, especially during a recession.

1. Allow only skilled and educated people in, just like Mexico's own laws.

2. Assimilate them. Without a common language, we cannot be a Union.

[Bryn Mawr]

Saint_;1306204 wrote: Why can't they do that by deporting the ones that are here illegally? that's what other countries do. As a matter of fact, Mexico's own immigration laws are FAR harsher than ours.




Certainly, that's exactly what you should be doing - target those who are there illegally.



Saint_;1306204 wrote:

What if that proportion is 90%? When do you stop calling it "illegal immigration" and start calling it "criminal invasion?"




If true it's a poor reflection on your border security but I don't believe it.

Saint_;1306204 wrote:

I say one thing more: When we were a young country at the turn of the century, and had wide open spaces to fill, railroads to build and infrastructure to expand, we needed lots of manual laborers and new citizens. We welcomed everyone, tired, sick and poor, with open arms and they willingly assimilated, learned our common language, and became American.

Those days are gone. We have plenty of people right now and we don't need any more at all, especially unskilled, uneducated, untrained people. Most of the jobs in the US now involve some level of education. To add a huge, uneducated component to our population is a recipe for disaster, especially during a recession.

1. Allow only skilled and educated people in, just like Mexico's own laws.

2. Assimilate them. Without a common language, we cannot be a Union.


Your government sets the policy of those who will be accepted as legal immigrants and hence who can be deported as illegal - your rules sound fine to me.

[Ahso!]

Meghan McCain thinks it will lead to racial profiling. Shes an Arizona resident albeit raised with a silver spoon.

Arizona Immigration Law FALLOUT: New Law Sparks Fiery Debate

[CARLA]

Humm...!! If your crossing the Mexican border illegally most likely your going to be a Mexican, asking you why your hear illegally, as well as everyone else seems appropriate and should have been done decades ago. Why is it wrong to send illegals back to their own country?? I have never understood this, and I never will.



Sure people are going to be up in arms its means they can't have their babies here, and then bring their entire family to live off us for free because they know all the ways to work the systems to gain food, housing, money, clothes, medical care, better schools for their kids then we get.



SorryI don't feel sorry for any of them go home, come into this country legally.

[Saint_]

460,000 illegals in Arizona. Damn. That's close a half-million people.

The majority of which do not speak the language, are uneducated and unskilled, and many of whom are criminals. All of them swamping the hospitals and schools, applying for welfare, driving without licenses or registrations, not voting, and even going after jobs that legal residents need. (And don't give me that "They do jobs real Americans won't crap. That might be true in good times, but not in the Great Recession.)

I don't think Arizona is out of line at all.

[ZAP]

This is one aspect of the problem and its costs that I hadn't thought of. I found this while researching to see how many illegals there are in CA (3 million)

The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR): California County Declares Emergency Under Illegal Alien Burden

It's an old article but magnify the statistics by many times. This is our county, which is a favorite spot for illegals to cross.

Another good link:

California's Illegal Aliens Cost Taxpayers Nearly $9 Billion A Year : Diggers Realm

[yaaarrrgg]

Saint_;1306428 wrote: 460,000 illegals in Arizona. Damn. That's close a half-million people.

The majority of which do not speak the language, are uneducated and unskilled, and many of whom are criminals. All of them swamping the hospitals and schools, applying for welfare, driving without licenses or registrations, not voting, and even going after jobs that legal residents need. (And don't give me that "They do jobs real Americans won't crap. That might be true in good times, but not in the Great Recession.)

I don't think Arizona is out of line at all.


These people are actually contributing billions to the Arizona economy in what I'he seen. I think it's suspicious how the law targets the little guy, and not the businesses paying them under the table.

[CARLA]

I agree and this is why it has to stop on all levels. Its a no win situation that is killing border states and cities we are crumbling under the press of caring for illegals, has been for decades it can't remain the way it is.

Once again I will say this we can't go into any country illegally and get free services of any kind, or buy property just won't happen, yet we give all our hard earned rights as citizens away to those who enter here illegally not right or fair. I don't care that their homeland can't take care of them not my problem and quit telling us it is. Take care of your own, so we can maybe start taking care of ours instead of yours.





[QUOTE]

These people are actually contributing billions to the Arizona economy in what I'he seen. I think it's suspicious how the law targets the little guy, and not the businesses paying them under the table.


[/QUOTE]

[flopstock]

RealClearPolitics - How Mexico Treats Illegal Aliens



I think that if this article is a true reflection of the facts, that it is very interesting reading.

[Saint_]

Look at it this way: Would you, yourself, enter another country illegally? No?

Why not?

Then why on Earth would you condone that behavior in others?

[YZGI]

flopstock;1306635 wrote: RealClearPolitics - How Mexico Treats Illegal Aliens



I think that if this article is a true reflection of the facts, that it is very interesting reading.
Amazing how the same people with harsher laws than us call us racists.

[CARLA]

Exactly they scream because they don't want to take care of their people period, never have.

[Saint_]

-- In Mexico, Illegal entry into the country is equivalent to a felony punishable by two years' imprisonment. Document fraud is subject to fine and imprisonment; so is alien marriage fraud. Evading deportation is a serious crime; illegal re-entry after deportation is punishable by ten years' imprisonment. Foreigners may be kicked out of the country without due process and the endless bites at the litigation apple that illegal aliens are afforded in our country (see, for example, President Obama's illegal alien aunt -- a fugitive from deportation for eight years who is awaiting a second decision on her previously rejected asylum claim).

-- Law enforcement officials at all levels -- by national mandate -- must cooperate to enforce immigration laws, including illegal alien arrests and deportations. The Mexican military is also required to assist in immigration enforcement operations. Native-born Mexicans are empowered to make citizens' arrests of illegal aliens and turn them in to authorities.


This REALLY pisses me off. Damn hypocrites. I'd love to see us just say, "You know, your polices are very good, I think we'll adopt them."

[YZGI]

Saint_;1306645 wrote: This REALLY pisses me off. Damn hypocrites. I'd love to see us just say, "You know, your polices are very good, I think we'll adopt them."
Racist!!!!!:D

[mikeinie]

"Arizona has an estimated 460,000 illegal immigrants"

Given that the number of illegal immigrants in Arizon is the same as the populations of the following cities:



461,818 Gdansk Poland

461,458 Manizales Colombia

461,014 Mangalore India

460,833 São João de Meriti Brazil

460,239 Skopje Macedonia

459,212 Ujjain India

458,125 Ceboksary Russia

i think that the lack of action to deal with this issue has left them with no choice.

[Saint_]

YZGI;1306646 wrote: Racist!!!!!:D


LOL! Ummm... Welllll...EH!

[Saint_]

mikeinie;1306650 wrote:

i think that the lack of action to deal with this issue has left them with no choice.


You know, a couple hundred isn't a problem. Even a thousand would stillbe just a drop in the the bucket. But a HALF MILLION, especially in a mostly unpopulated state...

is an invading army.:-2

[CARLA]

Yes it is and the invasion has been going on for decades in plain sight day in and day out.

[Ahso!]

I'm curious, has anyone participating in this thread actually read the new law?

[Ahso!]

flopstock;1306635 wrote: RealClearPolitics - How Mexico Treats Illegal Aliens



I think that if this article is a true reflection of the facts, that it is very interesting reading.Well, it would be nice if dear Michelle offered some citations or something. Sometimes its better to check out accuracy before feeding the mob.

[YZGI]

Ahso!;1306659 wrote: I'm curious, has anyone participating in this thread actually read the new law?
Have you? If so, are any parts of the law harsher than the Mexican immigration law?

[Ahso!]

YZGI;1306666 wrote: Have you? If so, are any parts of the law harsher than the Mexican immigration law?No I haven't, but thats because it doesn't affect me directly. And what Mexican Immigration Law are you referring to? Is it the one that Michelle Malkin, a conservative blogger, doesn't cite, but rather describes in her own words, or rather has decided is Mexican Immigration Law?

I seriously looked into moving to Canada a number of years ago. While researching information, an official Canadian site encouraged people moving there to be contributors to the economy and every other thing Michell insists the Mexican Government has made law, but it wasn't law. The site made it clear it was very preferable to sucking the national tit, but it was not law.

My guess is if you went to a similar web site from Mexico, we'd see the same tone. And I'll bet thats where Michelle got her information from. But we don't know because she has chosen not to tell us where her information came from. Sounds rather sneaky to me.

[flopstock]

Ahso!;1306662 wrote: Well, it would be nice if dear Michelle offered some citations or something. Sometimes its better to check out accuracy before feeding the mob.




Here ya go dear ahso:D

SB1070 - 492R - Senate Fact Sheet





It's the fact sheet on the bill.



Here's an older artile citing the mexican law by article, if that helps you.



McCain-Kennedy Immigration Reform Bill vs. Mexico's Immigration Law - HUMAN EVENTS

[flopstock]

Ahso!;1306669 wrote: No I haven't, but thats because it doesn't affect me directly. And what Mexican Immigration Law are you referring to? Is it the one that Michelle Malkin, a conservative blogger, doesn't cite, but rather describes in her own words, or rather has decided is Mexican Immigration Law?



I seriously looked into moving to Canada a number of years ago. While researching information, an official Canadian site encouraged people moving there to be contributors to the economy and every other thing Michell insists the Mexican Government has made law, but it wasn't law. The site made it clear it was very preferable to sucking the national tit, but it was not law.



My guess is if you went to a similar web site from Mexico, we'd see the same tone. And I'll bet thats where Michelle got her information from. But we don't know because she has chosen not to tell us where her information came from. Sounds rather sneaky to me.


So it's not okay for her to make statesments without citation, but it's fine for you to imply dishonestly on her part without backing your implications up with citations disproving her points? Interesting

[YZGI]

One problem I see in this law is:



18. Specifies that it is unlawful, if a motor vehicle is stopped on a street, roadway or highway and blocks or impedes the normal movement of traffic:

a) for a motor vehicle occupant to attempt to hire or hire and pick up passengers for work at a different location;

b) for a person to enter the motor vehicle in order to be hired by a motor vehicle occupant and to be transported to work at a different location.









This would seem to impede legal citizens without transportation job opportunities.

[flopstock]

YZGI;1306683 wrote: One problem I see in this law is:



18. Specifies that it is unlawful, if a motor vehicle is stopped on a street, roadway or highway and blocks or impedes the normal movement of traffic:

a) for a motor vehicle occupant to attempt to hire or hire and pick up passengers for work at a different location;

b) for a person to enter the motor vehicle in order to be hired by a motor vehicle occupant and to be transported to work at a different location.









This would seem to impede legal citizens without transportation job opportunities.


I read that as day labor. This would eliminate the under the table untaxed payment for work. Folks can still hire folks, just not literally off the street.



The only negative I see with this is that you wouldn't be able to pull over and hire the neighborhood kid to come cut your grass for you.



Folks can still take public transportation to and from work and even employer supplied transportation, IMO. They just need to be on the payroll is the way I read that.



But what do I know?:p

[Ahso!]

flopstock;1306678 wrote: So it's not okay for her to make statesments without citation, but it's fine for you to imply dishonestly on her part without backing your implications up with citations disproving her points? InterestingWhat Michelle mentions is Mexico's Ley General de Población. Here is America's Immigration act of 1990. It seems to me from reading parts of both that although ours is much more refined and complex, I see similarities on restrictions.

I'm searching for the Arizona Law text. Its not easy to find.

[Ahso!]

Enforcement

1. Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S.



2. Requires the person’s immigration status to be verified with the federal government pursuant to federal law.



3. Requires an alien unlawfully present in the U.S. who is convicted of a violation of state or local law to be transferred immediately to the custody of ICE or Customs and Border Protection, on discharge from imprisonment or assessment of any fine that is imposed.There are quite a lot of requirements for officials. I've heard if its proven that dropping the ball by anyone is reason for dismissal from employment. If thats true, I'd expect a lot of people stopped and checked.



4. Allows a law enforcement agency to securely transport an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S. and who is in the agency’s custody to:

a) a federal facility in this state or

b) any other point of transfer into federal custody that is outside the jurisdiction of the law enforcement agency.



5. Allows a law enforcement officer, without a warrant, to arrest a person if the officer has probable cause to believe that the person has committed any public offense that makes the person removable from the U.S.This (5) is pretty ambiguous if you ask me. What exactly does this mean? Does it include me and you, and what public offenses involve removal from the country?



6. Prohibits officials or agencies of the state and political subdivisions from being prevented or restricted from sending, receiving or maintaining an individual’s immigration status information or exchanging that information with any other governmental entity for the following official purposes:

a) determining eligibility for any public benefit, service or license provided by any federal, state, local or other political subdivision of this state;

b) verifying any claim of residence or domicile if that verification is required under state law or a judicial order issued pursuant to a civil or criminal proceeding in the state;

c) confirming a detainee’s identity; and

d) if the person is an alien, determining whether the person is in compliance with federal alien registration laws.Fair enough, but a lot of work which will inevitably cost a lot of money. Wheres the money coming from? Thats further down the list and anything but guaranteed.



7. Disallows officials or agencies of the state or political subdivisions from adopting or implementing policies that limit immigration enforcement to less than the full extent permitted by federal law, and allows a person to bring an action in superior court to challenge an official or agency that does so. This one is scary. This sounds like if anyone neglects to hammer a person big time they are open to prosecution.



8. Requires the court, if there is a judicial finding that an entity has committed a violation, to order any of the following:

a) that the plaintiff recover court costs and attorney fees;

b) that the defendant pay a civil penalty of not less than $1,000 and not more than $5,000 for each day that the policy has remained in effect after the filing of the action.



9. Requires the court to collect and remit the civil penalty to the Department of Public Safety (DPS), which must establish a special subaccount for the monies in the account established for the Gang and Immigration Intelligence Team Enforcement Mission (GIITEM) appropriation.Numbers 8 and 9 seem to be where the money to pay for this thing comes from. The problem is what if the fines can't be collected? There will be a lot more people in the prison population for nonpayment which complicates everything and does nothing but shift the cost onto the prison funding. Aren't some if not all of Az prisons privately run? I see big time tax increases coming to Az.



10. Specifies that law enforcement officers are indemnified by their agencies against reasonable costs and expenses, including attorney fees, incurred by the officer in connection with any action, suit or proceeding brought pursuant to this statute to which the officer may be a party by reason of the officer being or having been a member of the law enforcement agency, except in relation to matters in which the officer is adjudged to have acted in bad faith.

It sounds like "bad faith" mean not fulfilling their "required" duties as stated in the first portion of the law. In other words: immigrants, legal or illegal cannot sue anyone involved in any action, which makes the following quote very interesting.

34. Requires the act to be implemented in a manner consistent with federal laws regulating immigration, protecting the civil rights of all persons and respecting the privileges and immunities of U.S. citizens.


Its obvious from reading just this thread that there is quite a lot of frustration on this issue. I lived in Tucson Az from 1986 - 1990 but i never really saw much of a problem with this - perhaps its that much worse now though.

I doubt this is a fix for you all but maybe it will wake up the Congress to do something about the borders instead of creating more laws. More law is something we don't need IMO.

Good Luck! And sorry for roughing up your girl, dear Flopstock. I meant no harm!:)

[yaaarrrgg]

I don't see how that law is clear enough to even be enforceable. What is a reasonably suspicious behavior of lacking documentation?

A large group of people think Obama is acting suspicious despite having posted his birth certificate online a couple years ago. What percentage of these individuals work in law enforcement? I wouldn't be surprised if it paralleled the general population.

Worse, I don't see how it plugs the big hole of job loss. In my city our problem is that a major manufacturer just announced that they are shipping all the production jobs to Mexico. I see that in Arizona's future as well.

I think a better approach to this whole problem would be for Canada, U.S. and Mexico to work out a larger union, were we send each other a check for the tax differences/damages that the relocation of an estimated number of people would produce. Then the jobs can go to the people, and the people can come to the jobs. That's free trade, just not biased in favor of valuing land property over humans.

[Ahso!]

yaaarrrgg;1306879 wrote: I don't see how that law is clear enough to even be enforceable. What is a reasonably suspicious behavior of lacking documentation?

A large group of people think Obama is acting suspicious despite having posted his birth certificate online a couple years ago. What percentage of these individuals work in law enforcement? I wouldn't be surprised if it paralleled the general population.

Worse, I don't see how it plugs the big hole of job loss. In my city our problem is that a major manufacturer just announced that they are shipping all the production jobs to Mexico. I see that in Arizona's future as well.

I think a better approach to this whole problem would be for Canada, U.S. and Mexico to work out a larger union, were we send each other a check for the tax differences/damages that the relocation of an estimated number of people would produce. Then the jobs can go to the people, and the people can come to the jobs. That's free trade, just not biased in favor of valuing land property over humans.Thats an excellent idea.

Its really amazing how the republicans are trying to make this out to be a 'jobs' bill. More mindless legislation based on party competition and ignoring the fact that they are probably financially sabotaging the state of Arizona. Funny thing is is that if democrats had proposed this monster, republicans would be out in force crying "wheres the money gonna come from, how are the liberals going to pay for this?'

They must know this thing will get shot down in court. I can't imagine them being this reckless. But then again we must remember they reelected Bush for a second term. I guess they are this reckless after all. Its gotta be stupidity.

[ZAP]

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