Vandals have torn down the cross which has stood at the Mojave Desert Veterans Memorial on Sunrise Rock for 76 years, and under attack by the ACLU for ten years. The Supreme Court on April 28 rejected the ACLU's secular-cleansing arguments and overturned the orders of the lower courts to destroy the memorial because of the cross. Now, the veterans memorial, which should be sacrosanct, has been desecrated.
This is an outrage that must not go unredressed. Has our nation been so transformed that there are now those among us who would desecrate a veterans memorial by tearing down a cross which was established by veterans in 1934 in the remote Mojave Desert to honor the service and sacrifice of veterans who have made our freedom possible, especially those who have given their live.
Has the very soul America been so changed that this could even be contemplated by anyone in America?
The secular-cleansing fanatics of the ACLU have been attempting to destroy the Mojave Desert Veterans Memorial Cross for ten years, and the Mt. Soledad National Veterans Memorial for twenty years.
Now the Mojave Veterans Memorial has been desecrated. It is the logical result of the secular-cleansing fanaticism of the ACLU, the epitome of intolerant totalitarian secular-cleansing so-called "progressives.
Mojave war memorial desecrated
Mojave war memorial desecrated
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Mojave war memorial desecrated
Totally wrong and unacceptable however you look at it.
Mojave war memorial desecrated
Disgusting................. those veterans were prepared to give their lives so that those who have desecrated that war memorial, may live !!! ???
The perpetrators should be made to refurbish the war memorial, and supervised every minute, by armed guards.
The perpetrators should be made to refurbish the war memorial, and supervised every minute, by armed guards.
I'm a Saga-lout, growing old disgracefully
Mojave war memorial desecrated
What? You mean the anti- God people have yet to weigh in on this?
Mojave war memorial desecrated
A lot of soldiers of different faiths fought and died in the war, including atheists. I like how you assume the atheists took it though. Why don't you blame the Jews for everything?
Mojave war memorial desecrated
I looked up ACLU and for those who do not know what it is :- American Civil Liberties Union.
I read what it said in Snopes, and each of you can make up your minds as to who is right and who is wrong.............................
snopes.com: Mojave Cross
I read what it said in Snopes, and each of you can make up your minds as to who is right and who is wrong.............................
snopes.com: Mojave Cross
I'm a Saga-lout, growing old disgracefully
Mojave war memorial desecrated
G#Gill;1309537 wrote: I looked up ACLU and for those who do not know what it is :- American Civil Liberties Union.
I read what it said in Snopes, and each of you can make up your minds as to who is right and who is wrong.............................
snopes.com: Mojave Cross
No question - the cross pre-dates the land becoming Federal by sixty years. It stays.
I read what it said in Snopes, and each of you can make up your minds as to who is right and who is wrong.............................
snopes.com: Mojave Cross
No question - the cross pre-dates the land becoming Federal by sixty years. It stays.
Mojave war memorial desecrated
Bryn Mawr;1309549 wrote: No question - the cross pre-dates the land becoming Federal by sixty years. It stays.
I agree, but the ACLU are on about the cross being a christian symbol when there were veterans who were not christian and they insist that the cross symbol is inappropriate, for that reason - that it suggests that all the veterans were christian. The business of the cross being on federal land, or not being on federal land mystifies me. Why should it make a difference what land it is on, if the landowner agrees for it to be there?
I agree, but the ACLU are on about the cross being a christian symbol when there were veterans who were not christian and they insist that the cross symbol is inappropriate, for that reason - that it suggests that all the veterans were christian. The business of the cross being on federal land, or not being on federal land mystifies me. Why should it make a difference what land it is on, if the landowner agrees for it to be there?
I'm a Saga-lout, growing old disgracefully
Mojave war memorial desecrated
G#Gill;1309553 wrote: I agree, but the ACLU are on about the cross being a christian symbol when there were veterans who were not christian and they insist that the cross symbol is inappropriate, for that reason - that it suggests that all the veterans were christian. The business of the cross being on federal land, or not being on federal land mystifies me. Why should it make a difference what land it is on, if the landowner agrees for it to be there?
The U.S. federal government is supposed to be neutral when it comes to religion. They are not supposed to endorse or prohibit any religion. Though the government has sometimes ignored this part of the law, as it happens, 80% of the people are Christian and officials that make these gestures, often well-meaning, seem to forget that other religions or viewpoints even exist.
The legal problem is that the cross is a symbol of Christianity, therefore can't be placed in a public park. Recently other groups have asked to place symbols for their religions along side this cross, but the park service had refused. So, it boiled over to a lawsuit. The clever loophole (literally!) was to transfer ownership of the land it was sitting on to a private group.
IMO, still it was a poor choice to pick a symbol for a war memorial that ignores the religious beliefs of a good 10 to 20 percent of veterans who fought and gave their lives. Not to mention, Jesus was firmly a pacifist. I'm not sure he would want Rome co-opting the image of the device he was tortured on, and putting this up for their warriors (some of which helped kill him). I could see this being offensive to Christians that actually adopt the socially liberal, pacifist values of Jesus.
It's only by good fortune that Jesus wasn't executed on an electric chair, since then we'd be looking at a giant metal electric chair in the middle of the desert. Coming from a protestant background myself, the choice of the image of the cross had always been puzzling to me. It's a torture device.
I'll tell you what's the most insulting to atheist veterens I've ever heard has come from a George Bush Sr.
"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
Unsurprisingly, his boy didn't see the point of a memorial that respected all faiths, or lack thereof.
The U.S. federal government is supposed to be neutral when it comes to religion. They are not supposed to endorse or prohibit any religion. Though the government has sometimes ignored this part of the law, as it happens, 80% of the people are Christian and officials that make these gestures, often well-meaning, seem to forget that other religions or viewpoints even exist.
The legal problem is that the cross is a symbol of Christianity, therefore can't be placed in a public park. Recently other groups have asked to place symbols for their religions along side this cross, but the park service had refused. So, it boiled over to a lawsuit. The clever loophole (literally!) was to transfer ownership of the land it was sitting on to a private group.
IMO, still it was a poor choice to pick a symbol for a war memorial that ignores the religious beliefs of a good 10 to 20 percent of veterans who fought and gave their lives. Not to mention, Jesus was firmly a pacifist. I'm not sure he would want Rome co-opting the image of the device he was tortured on, and putting this up for their warriors (some of which helped kill him). I could see this being offensive to Christians that actually adopt the socially liberal, pacifist values of Jesus.
It's only by good fortune that Jesus wasn't executed on an electric chair, since then we'd be looking at a giant metal electric chair in the middle of the desert. Coming from a protestant background myself, the choice of the image of the cross had always been puzzling to me. It's a torture device.
I'll tell you what's the most insulting to atheist veterens I've ever heard has come from a George Bush Sr.
"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
Unsurprisingly, his boy didn't see the point of a memorial that respected all faiths, or lack thereof.
Mojave war memorial desecrated
Interesting points, Yaaarrrgg, and as I am not religious I think there is a case for avoiding religious symbols when it comes to war memorials.
Really, I don't think people consider the cross as a symbol of torture as such. I suppose it is because there has been so much time passed since the original event, and people have adopted the cross as a symbol of Jesus' 'sacrifice for mankind'.
Perhaps it would be politic for a neutral memorial plaque to be placed on that site - would save a lot of strife in the end, and who could complain at that?
Really, I don't think people consider the cross as a symbol of torture as such. I suppose it is because there has been so much time passed since the original event, and people have adopted the cross as a symbol of Jesus' 'sacrifice for mankind'.
Perhaps it would be politic for a neutral memorial plaque to be placed on that site - would save a lot of strife in the end, and who could complain at that?
I'm a Saga-lout, growing old disgracefully
Mojave war memorial desecrated
Most of the war memorials we have are stone columns or needles, some have crosses at the top, some don't. The intention is to remember a pointless war. Squabbling over the shape of the monument has a certain irony that probably escapes most of those involved. pagans probably used crosses to mark where people were buried it's the most basic way of doing so there is.
Mojave war memorial desecrated
G#Gill;1309553 wrote: I agree, but the ACLU are on about the cross being a christian symbol when there were veterans who were not christian and they insist that the cross symbol is inappropriate, for that reason - that it suggests that all the veterans were christian. The business of the cross being on federal land, or not being on federal land mystifies me. Why should it make a difference what land it is on, if the landowner agrees for it to be there?
Their argument appears to be that the constitution expressly blocks the use of federal lands for such purposes.
Their argument appears to be that the constitution expressly blocks the use of federal lands for such purposes.
Mojave war memorial desecrated
gmc;1309630 wrote: pagans probably used crosses to mark where people were buried it's the most basic way of doing so there is.
I recall recently we had a lawsuit where pagans were requesting their veteran's graves to be recognized with a pentacle:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/24/washi ... iccan.html
I recall recently we had a lawsuit where pagans were requesting their veteran's graves to be recognized with a pentacle:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/24/washi ... iccan.html
Mojave war memorial desecrated
yaaarrrgg;1309652 wrote: I recall recently we had a lawsuit where pagans were requesting their veteran's graves to be recognized with a pentacle:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/24/washi ... iccan.html
I find it odd that anyone but the family should have a say in what goes on a gravestone. We don't have separate military cemeteries though in quite the same way as you do. soldiers get interred in local cemeteries. I think the attitude here would be to tell anyone raising that kind of objection to F))K off
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/24/washi ... iccan.html
I find it odd that anyone but the family should have a say in what goes on a gravestone. We don't have separate military cemeteries though in quite the same way as you do. soldiers get interred in local cemeteries. I think the attitude here would be to tell anyone raising that kind of objection to F))K off
Mojave war memorial desecrated
gmc;1309659 wrote: I find it odd that anyone but the family should have a say in what goes on a gravestone. We don't have separate military cemeteries though in quite the same way as you do. soldiers get interred in local cemeteries. I think the attitude here would be to tell anyone raising that kind of objection to F))K off
The families were raising the objection AFAIK, only in relation to the national cemeteries. Should we tell the Jews to f))k off if they request a Star of David on the grave markers of a loved one who died for the country, rather than a cross? If they are not making the markers neutral with respect to all religion, I think it's a legitimate request.
Here are all the currently recognized religions:
United States Department of Veterans Affairs emblems for headstones and markers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In the States, we are sensitive to the encroachment of government into religion because that was one of the main reasons that people left their original lands to come to the U.S. This included pagans as well as Christians. While some Christians might see a move towards either neutrality or plurality as an attack on Christianity, many of the vocal proponents of the separation of Church and State are Christians who remember the history and abuses of the Church of England (for example).
The families were raising the objection AFAIK, only in relation to the national cemeteries. Should we tell the Jews to f))k off if they request a Star of David on the grave markers of a loved one who died for the country, rather than a cross? If they are not making the markers neutral with respect to all religion, I think it's a legitimate request.
Here are all the currently recognized religions:
United States Department of Veterans Affairs emblems for headstones and markers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In the States, we are sensitive to the encroachment of government into religion because that was one of the main reasons that people left their original lands to come to the U.S. This included pagans as well as Christians. While some Christians might see a move towards either neutrality or plurality as an attack on Christianity, many of the vocal proponents of the separation of Church and State are Christians who remember the history and abuses of the Church of England (for example).
Mojave war memorial desecrated
yaaarrrgg;1309708 wrote: The families were raising the objection AFAIK, only in relation to the national cemeteries. Should we tell the Jews to f))k off if they request a Star of David on the grave markers of a loved one who died for the country, rather than a cross? If they are not making the markers neutral with respect to all religion, I think it's a legitimate request.
Here are all the currently recognized religions:
United States Department of Veterans Affairs emblems for headstones and markers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In the States, we are sensitive to the encroachment of government into religion because that was one of the main reasons that people left their original lands to come to the U.S. This included pagans as well as Christians. While some Christians might see a move towards either neutrality or plurality as an attack on Christianity, many of the vocal proponents of the separation of Church and State are Christians who remember the history and abuses of the Church of England (for example).
You misunderstand me. I'm on the side of the relatives who want the wiccan symbol. I don't see why they can't put on any religion or symbol they like on their own son's grave. What is the government doing deciding what goes on a gravestone? O.K. I appreciate it is a military cemetery. we don't have the same kind of military cemeteries, soldiers get buried by their relatives. I think the attitude here would be to tell the authorities to get lost and put what they want.
If you worry about the encroachment of government in to religion maybe you should also worry about the encroachment of religion on to others. why are religious groups being allowed to get away with that kind of discrimination? It's like something out the dark ages, fear the pagan and keep them away.
Here are all the currently recognized religions:
United States Department of Veterans Affairs emblems for headstones and markers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In the States, we are sensitive to the encroachment of government into religion because that was one of the main reasons that people left their original lands to come to the U.S. This included pagans as well as Christians. While some Christians might see a move towards either neutrality or plurality as an attack on Christianity, many of the vocal proponents of the separation of Church and State are Christians who remember the history and abuses of the Church of England (for example).
You misunderstand me. I'm on the side of the relatives who want the wiccan symbol. I don't see why they can't put on any religion or symbol they like on their own son's grave. What is the government doing deciding what goes on a gravestone? O.K. I appreciate it is a military cemetery. we don't have the same kind of military cemeteries, soldiers get buried by their relatives. I think the attitude here would be to tell the authorities to get lost and put what they want.
If you worry about the encroachment of government in to religion maybe you should also worry about the encroachment of religion on to others. why are religious groups being allowed to get away with that kind of discrimination? It's like something out the dark ages, fear the pagan and keep them away.
Mojave war memorial desecrated
gmc;1309722 wrote: You misunderstand me. I'm on the side of the relatives who want the wiccan symbol. I don't see why they can't put on any religion or symbol they like on their own son's grave. What is the government doing deciding what goes on a gravestone? O.K. I appreciate it is a military cemetery. we don't have the same kind of military cemeteries, soldiers get buried by their relatives. I think the attitude here would be to tell the authorities to get lost and put what they want.
If you worry about the encroachment of government in to religion maybe you should also worry about the encroachment of religion on to others. why are religious groups being allowed to get away with that kind of discrimination? It's like something out the dark ages, fear the pagan and keep them away.
Ah, I see your point now. Yes, I agree... if the soldier gave his/her life, the least the government could do is allow them the choice of image and text on a marker. Otherwise, it almost feels like the government is trying to control a propaganda message.
If you worry about the encroachment of government in to religion maybe you should also worry about the encroachment of religion on to others. why are religious groups being allowed to get away with that kind of discrimination? It's like something out the dark ages, fear the pagan and keep them away.
Ah, I see your point now. Yes, I agree... if the soldier gave his/her life, the least the government could do is allow them the choice of image and text on a marker. Otherwise, it almost feels like the government is trying to control a propaganda message.
Mojave war memorial desecrated
yaaarrrgg;1309733 wrote: Ah, I see your point now. Yes, I agree... if the soldier gave his/her life, the least the government could do is allow them the choice of image and text on a marker. Otherwise, it almost feels like the government is trying to control a propaganda message.
More to the point, perhaps, they are saying of you do not conform and follow the accepted religions you are a non person and your beliefs don't matter or deserve respect. They're dead for goodness sake let them lie in peace.
More to the point, perhaps, they are saying of you do not conform and follow the accepted religions you are a non person and your beliefs don't matter or deserve respect. They're dead for goodness sake let them lie in peace.
Mojave war memorial desecrated
G#Gill;1309553 wrote: I agree, but the ACLU are on about the cross being a christian symbol when there were veterans who were not christian and they insist that the cross symbol is inappropriate, for that reason - that it suggests that all the veterans were christian. The business of the cross being on federal land, or not being on federal land mystifies me. Why should it make a difference what land it is on, if the landowner agrees for it to be there?
The ACLU is ALL about tearing down the REAL America............CUT and DRY!!!!
The ACLU is ALL about tearing down the REAL America............CUT and DRY!!!!
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Mojave war memorial desecrated
BTS;1309949 wrote: The ACLU is ALL about tearing down the REAL America............CUT and DRY!!!!
What's the real america? The bigotry and hatred of the KKK or the civil rights movement, freedom and liberty for all or manifest destiny and the deliberate suppression and removal and subjugation of the indigenous people and anyone else that gets in the way. I suspect anyone that claims to know the answer is missing something. I'm not an american so please excuse my presumption.
What's the real america? The bigotry and hatred of the KKK or the civil rights movement, freedom and liberty for all or manifest destiny and the deliberate suppression and removal and subjugation of the indigenous people and anyone else that gets in the way. I suspect anyone that claims to know the answer is missing something. I'm not an american so please excuse my presumption.
Mojave war memorial desecrated
gmc;1309968 wrote: What's the real america? The bigotry and hatred of the KKK or the civil rights movement, freedom and liberty for all or manifest destiny and the deliberate suppression and removal and subjugation of the indigenous people and anyone else that gets in the way. I suspect anyone that claims to know the answer is missing something. I'm not an american so please excuse my presumption.
The real America? It's a place you can go to and work your way up as far as you are capable of. But, it won't be a cakewalk, so don't come here if you are the need-to-be-pampered type. The real America is a place that's always ready to help, even if it hurts, like two world wars. The real America makes mistakes, just like real people do. We fight amongst ourselves. We have good leaders, and lousy leaders. And, forgive us for hating those who sit in their pizzant countries and sneer down their noses at us.
The real America? It's a place you can go to and work your way up as far as you are capable of. But, it won't be a cakewalk, so don't come here if you are the need-to-be-pampered type. The real America is a place that's always ready to help, even if it hurts, like two world wars. The real America makes mistakes, just like real people do. We fight amongst ourselves. We have good leaders, and lousy leaders. And, forgive us for hating those who sit in their pizzant countries and sneer down their noses at us.
Mojave war memorial desecrated
hoppy;1309998 wrote: The real America? It's a place you can go to and work your way up as far as you are capable of. But, it won't be a cakewalk, so don't come here if you are the need-to-be-pampered type. The real America is a place that's always ready to help, even if it hurts, like two world wars. The real America makes mistakes, just like real people do. We fight amongst ourselves. We have good leaders, and lousy leaders. And, forgive us for hating those who sit in their pizzant countries and sneer down their noses at us.
Why do you think everybody sneers down their noses at you? When did America become so unsure of itself and paranoid. It's sad to see. You should try and be more like us - we don't give a **** what foreigners think.
Why do you think everybody sneers down their noses at you? When did America become so unsure of itself and paranoid. It's sad to see. You should try and be more like us - we don't give a **** what foreigners think.
Mojave war memorial desecrated
There's no doubt that in the future, the 20th century will be referred to as the "American Century.":D
I mean, we did it all then, the invention of the airplane, the invention of mass production, the invention of blue jeans, the creation of Hollywood and good TV, winning WWII, the invention of atomic power and nuclear weapons, landing on the Moon, defeating Communism...
You name it!
America is the new "Rome." The greatest civilization in mankind's history. :rolleyes:
I mean, we did it all then, the invention of the airplane, the invention of mass production, the invention of blue jeans, the creation of Hollywood and good TV, winning WWII, the invention of atomic power and nuclear weapons, landing on the Moon, defeating Communism...
You name it!
America is the new "Rome." The greatest civilization in mankind's history. :rolleyes:
Mojave war memorial desecrated
hoppy;1309998 wrote: The real America?
"Real America" is just a label that politicians came up with. Kinda like Nixon's "silent majority", although more like "imaginary majority" now. For example, they just deny the existence or legitimacy of the majority of Americans who voted for Obama. I guess when you don't like minorities, it's hard to come to terms with being one.
"Real America" is just a label that politicians came up with. Kinda like Nixon's "silent majority", although more like "imaginary majority" now. For example, they just deny the existence or legitimacy of the majority of Americans who voted for Obama. I guess when you don't like minorities, it's hard to come to terms with being one.