Stand up for Jesus?

Frederick · Post by **Frederick** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:06 am

We are supposed to live in a multi-cultural, multi- racial, ethnic society where religious tolerance is promoted, and yet for the second time in less than a week the powers-that-be seem to have brought it upon themselves to go out of the way to remove all Christian literature and a crucifix for fear of "offending those of ethnic minorities" - at the cost of members of the Christian faith. All Christian paraphernalia including Bibles were removed from a hospital chapel and replaced with prayer mats - today's Daily Express. And yet not one single complaint had been received. How long will it be before somebody is asked to remove a gold cross as they enter a pub for fear of causing offence? I am not a bigot, nor am I a zealot, but as a Christian, I wear both a gold cross and, on another item of clothing, a fish as a testimonial to my faith. In my company there are Muslims, Jews, Christians, and atheists, and yet nobody has asked me to remove either of those items for fear of offending people of other faiths, neither would I ask a fellow worker to remove his turban. It is the beaurocratic pen-pushers who are the troublemakers. I would like to hear views from people of ALL faiths.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:16 am

The example you used, a hospital chapel, is much different than a personal possession. The chapel is there for family of ill hospital patients or patients themselves (of all faiths) to seek comfort and pray for recovery. As a place designed to offer comfort to all hospital patients it makes sense that they would try to make it appropriate to people of all faiths. I don't think it was meant to be a strike against Christianity.

If a law was passed that a Christian church must be stripped of all Christian items on display...THAT would be cause for outrage. The hospital owns this chapel and decided that it wanted it to be a place of prayer for all faiths. That is their decision to make. If it was a Christian hospital exclusively for Christian patients I doubt they would have made that decision. If it is owned by a government that declares all religions equal than it makes sense to make the chapel religion nonspecific.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:30 am

koan :-6

I can agree with that. As a Christian Pluralist I must respect all other faiths and do so. As far as Christianity goes when it comes right down to it the symbols of our faith are not that important. Whati is important is that Christians live in a developing transforming relationship with the Risen Lord. Dogma and doctrine are unimportant. It is relationship that is important.

Shalom

Ted :-6

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:31 am

Did they not remove the bibles so as not to spread infection?

Frederick · Post by **Frederick** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:46 am

abbey wrote: Did they not remove the bibles so as not to spread infection?

Excellent point - next time you go into hospital you'd better advise them to close the library, clear every locker of medical paperwork, throw away the magazines in the reception area, and worst of all, ban paper money! How far do you take it?!

Frederick · Post by **Frederick** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:17 pm

koan wrote: The example you used, a hospital chapel, is much different than a personal possession. The chapel is there for family of ill hospital patients or patients themselves (of all faiths) to seek comfort and pray for recovery. As a place designed to offer comfort to all hospital patients it makes sense that they would try to make it appropriate to people of all faiths. I don't think it was meant to be a strike against Christianity.

If a law was passed that a Christian church must be stripped of all Christian items on display...THAT would be cause for outrage. The hospital owns this chapel and decided that it wanted it to be a place of prayer for all faiths. That is their decision to make. If it was a Christian hospital exclusively for Christian patients I doubt they would have made that decision. If it is owned by a government that declares all religions equal than it makes sense to make the chapel religion nonspecific.

I agree with you up to a point, although the Oxford/English dictionary defines a chapel as: A small building or room for Christian worship, typically attached to a large church.... However, I will not split hairs. You are right in respect that in the case of a hospital it should be a place of prayer for all denominations, but in this instance one patient, a devout Catholic, fled the Chapel in tears after not only had they torn down the crucifix, but nobody was able even to find a Bible. OK, so the hospital, Newham General Hospital is run by the Government, but over the years, this Government has become so absurdly politically correst, for fear of causing offence to non-Christians, The British Red Cross actually removed the word Christmas from all its Christmas cards. One particular local Council took things to such an extrere, they actually banned decorations, and called it Wintertide or something equally stupid. I don't know how bad things are over there, but over here we're sick of it!

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:29 pm

It is feasibly a matter of perception. My daughter's school has a holiday concert at school that celebrates all the various forms of Christmas. They sing songs from all over the world and relate the stories that are told in each culture. The kids at the school of many different nationalities all hold hands and wish each other happiness. It's quite beautiful, actually.

john8pies · Post by **john8pies** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:08 am

I may be wrong but I think the problem stems from what different religions stand for, eg, (if I`m not right about this, please correct me, somebody!), Christians are asked to "spread the gospel to `non-believers`" however if they choose not to accept Christianity for themselves, Christians are still asked to love them; Moslems are asked to try and convert people to Islam but if they refuse, the penalty is death! Could this be why administrators and bureaucrats find Christianity a `soft target` but don`t want to upset Islam?!

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:22 am

koan wrote: The hospital owns this chapel and decided that it wanted it to be a place of prayer for all faiths. I guess I'm lucky then...I can talk to God no matter where I am, or what objects I'm surrounded by.....:yh_think

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:36 pm

koan :-6

Your daughter's school makes a wonderful statement that truly reflects an accepting ecumenical society. Perhaps it will be contageous and other schools will be afflicted with the same condition. That would be wonderful.

Shalom

Ted :-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:40 pm

It wil be absolutely wonderful when we finally realize that we are all ultimately worshipping the same God. Such a situation will not end the differences but will go a long way to ending the stresses that exist. At that point exclusivism will be gone, thank God, and we will learn to respect and get along together in peace as we follow our individual paths to God.

Shalom

Ted :-6

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:58 pm

I actually cried as I watched these kids, from about twelve different nationalities, say "Happy Holidays" in their native language and hug each other. I think it's working! I think our efforts to end racism are changing the next generation. My daughter shows no signs of racism. She doesn't really even know what it is.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:03 pm

john8pies wrote: Moslems are asked to try and convert people to Islam but if they refuse, the penalty is death!Who is "they", in this sentence? I've searched with google. I can find no report within the last fifty years of any moslem killed for refusing to evangelise, and no report of any non-moslem killed for refusing to convert to Islam. Am I not looking hard enough?

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:18 pm

spot wrote: Who is "they", in this sentence? I've searched with google. I can find no report within the last fifty years of any moslem killed for refusing to evangelise, and no report of any non-moslem killed for refusing to convert to Islam. Am I not looking hard enough?

My brother is a Muslim. He hasn't killed me or anyone else since his conversion. Though he has been guilty of being annoying at times. More because he's my brother than because he's a Muslim.

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:27 pm

spot wrote: Who is "they", in this sentence? I've searched with google. I can find no report within the last fifty years of any moslem killed for refusing to evangelise, and no report of any non-moslem killed for refusing to convert to Islam. Am I not looking hard enough?Maybe "they" converted and so avoided it!

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:41 am

BabyRider wrote: I guess I'm lucky then...I can talk to God no matter where I am, or what objects I'm surrounded by.....:yh_think
You go, girl! :-6

1. Jesus didnt wear a nametag telling the world who he was. His actions did.

2. I'm with BR. I can talk to God no matter what. Jesus did that for me too.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:29 am

Whatever happened to 'Jesus Saves' evangelists of the 1970s or are they still popular in the US?

ldsguy · Post by **ldsguy** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:18 pm

john8pies wrote: I may be wrong but I think the problem stems from what different religions stand for, eg, (if I`m not right about this, please correct me, somebody!), Christians are asked to "spread the gospel to `non-believers`" however if they choose not to accept Christianity for themselves, Christians are still asked to love them; Moslems are asked to try and convert people to Islam but if they refuse, the penalty is death! Could this be why administrators and bureaucrats find Christianity a `soft target` but don`t want to upset Islam?!

YES you hit the nail on the head!

Christianity "Love your enemies"

Islam Destroy the infidel

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 3:45 am

Christianity isnt something you wear, or carry on the outside. It's something that comes from within. And you carry that everywhere you go.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Sun Sep 11, 2005 10:36 am

Exactly.

Just like Jesus, our ACTIONS should proclaim to others who we are.

gimli3 · Post by **gimli3** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:52 am

Ted wrote: koan :-6

I can agree with that. As a Christian Pluralist I must respect all other faiths and do so. As far as Christianity goes when it comes right down to it the symbols of our faith are not that important. Whati is important is that Christians live in a developing transforming relationship with the Risen Lord. Dogma and doctrine are unimportant. It is relationship that is important.

Shalom

Ted :-6

:) Here's Richness!

I agree -- relationship: love: someone said that Christianity is outside all religions and although this sounds patronising there is truth in it.

But I talk Christ, not church-going. The two can overlap, but not much.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:22 am

posted by idsguy

YES you hit the nail on the head!

Christianity "Love your enemies"

Islam Destroy the infidel

I don't profess a great knowledge of either, but my understanding is that Islam teaches respect for the people of the book-other religons, doesn't advocate evangelism but allows people to convert if they want to. Islamic extremism is a perversion of the religon. Historically muslim rulers showed more tolerance for christians than christians for moslems.

On the other hand christianity calls for it's followers to evangelise, preaches tolerance but is happy to force people to convert-at least historically it was, there was little tolerance for disbelievers such as pagans who were persecuted for their beliefs. being a heretic was downright dangerous in some countries.

As to christian paraphenalia, wars were fought between catholics and protestants over whether statues of saints should be allowed in church. Idolators was a common accusation made against catholics. Personally i don't care but many would find statues of the virgin mary offensive in a hospital chapel. Being brought up in the presbyterian church it was a real culture shock going in to a catholic or even episcopalean church for the first time.

ldsguy · Post by **ldsguy** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:09 am

gmc wrote: posted by idsguy

I don't profess a great knowledge of either, but my understanding is that Islam teaches respect for the people of the book-other religons, doesn't advocate evangelism but allows people to convert if they want to. Islamic extremism is a perversion of the religon. Historically muslim rulers showed more tolerance for christians than christians for moslems.

On the other hand christianity calls for it's followers to evangelise, preaches tolerance but is happy to force people to convert-at least historically it was, there was little tolerance for disbelievers such as pagans who were persecuted for their beliefs. being a heretic was downright dangerous in some countries.

As to christian paraphenalia, wars were fought between catholics and protestants over whether statues of saints should be allowed in church. Idolators was a common accusation made against catholics. Personally i don't care but many would find statues of the virgin mary offensive in a hospital chapel. Being brought up in the presbyterian church it was a real culture shock going in to a catholic or even episcopalean church for the first time.

All that is very true. However so many people who have written on this forum have pointed out all the bad things which have been done in the name of Christianity over the ages. NONE of these however, are the teachings of true Christianity as taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostolic first century Church. Like the perversions of fundamenal Islam, so evident now, they are/were a perversion of Christianity.

randall · Post by **randall** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:07 am

RANDALL MUCKING AROUND AGAIN,

Frederick, I think you are wrong to say there were no protests - as a seaman I would say you away off course man.

Plenty have protested and some of these stupid, thoughtless and offensive actions, just like the selling of school playing fields and the removal of so many council own, childrens'' playgrounds - in case the council is sued for accidents - an unfortunate habit imported from the the good old US of A - is being reversed slowly but surely.

You forgot to mention that some of the most vocal protesters were our Muslim and Jewish brothers because we are all "Children of the Book" and collectively known as "The Abrahamic Faiths" - reputably descended from one man.

"Hold the faith brother; spread it gently."

randall · Post by **randall** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:53 am

randall again apologising for not reading ALL of the posts before jumping in with two feet.

"Islam or the Sword" is, in my opinion more the the whitewashed history books we were forced to read at school. than real history.

Juts like, in more modern times, children who were - perhaps adults to - "kidnapped by the various native American tribes preferred to stay with them than return to the own "civilised" communities, the crusaders were shocked that many of their women refused to return from Islamic culture to the "more enlightened christian" culture they had been taken from.

The fact is that we owe a great debt to Islamic culture who were the really advanced civilisation of their day in the west.

There was practically no corner of knowledge into which they did not enquire - and enquire deeply.

Even the clothes the crusaders women were given to wear was not seen in the west of Europe for another few centuries - it was pure luxury along with their architecture and mathematics not to mention the fact that they actually believed in bathing the human body.

Frederic the Great was reputed to have skin the colour of mahogany when he died as he had never washed in his life.

It has just been revealed in Britain that the Saudi Government has been financing scholars to rewrite the Koran so that it falls more in line with Bind Laden's ideas.

I feel truly sorry for Frederick if as a Presbyterian - whom we Baptist's (Baptist Churches are - in my opinion, fiercely independent and it took a great effort of many people to form "The Baptist Union of Scotland") used to think as being "Popish" and almost "Hypocritical" if not downright heathenish. he was so shocked at entering into a non-Presbyterian community.

I, personally, hated to be told by so many abroad, "Your a Scot. You MUST be a Presbyterian." I just could not see the connection - just as I did not drink whisky.

In foreign ports I was made welcome in every church of whatever kind or religion I entered and was glad of it because it forced me to become more and more, over the years, conciliatory towards all faiths and I thank God for it.

An there is still a lot of whitewashing going on - a Japanese Professor was sacked because he denounced the newer Japanese history books for their schools watering down or obliterating most of the very evil thing that the Japanese military did during the eight year war they fought with the Chinese.

As I grew older I found that the same thing had been down with "A History of Scotland" giving the impression that what a few belted Earls did was joyously accepted by the common man - they hardly heard or knew of what these politician in |Edinburgh were doing behind their backs.

As the to word chapel a Welsh minister brought it home to me that it refers not to sticks stone or mortar - ie the building itself - it may have come to mean that with general misuse.

The real meaning of chapel is the actual congregation which puts the Welsh saying "Is he Chapel" in a more sensible light.

God bless all

randall

Valerie100 · Post by **Valerie100** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:01 pm

Frederick wrote: We are supposed to live in a multi-cultural, multi- racial, ethnic society where religious tolerance is promoted, and yet for the second time in less than a week the powers-that-be seem to have brought it upon themselves to go out of the way to remove all Christian literature and a crucifix for fear of "offending those of ethnic minorities" - at the cost of members of the Christian faith. All Christian paraphernalia including Bibles were removed from a hospital chapel and replaced with prayer mats - today's Daily Express. And yet not one single complaint had been received. How long will it be before somebody is asked to remove a gold cross as they enter a pub for fear of causing offence? I am not a bigot, nor am I a zealot, but as a Christian, I wear both a gold cross and, on another item of clothing, a fish as a testimonial to my faith. In my company there are Muslims, Jews, Christians, and atheists, and yet nobody has asked me to remove either of those items for fear of offending people of other faiths, neither would I ask a fellow worker to remove his turban. It is the beaurocratic pen-pushers who are the troublemakers. I would like to hear views from people of ALL faiths.

I don't understand why they can't just teach the value of respect, as in being respectful of everyone's religious beliefs -- even if it means viewing the 10 Commandments outside of a courthouse, Bibles in courtrooms and hearing the words "God" and "Amen" in schools. The same thing applies to all religions and for that matter, the Pledge of Allegiance. This is America. It takes all kinds with all different belief systems. Just teach respect and in accepting our differences -- that doesn't mean accepting others' beliefs, by the way -- just being respectful about the differences that exist, then the problem is solved. The way things are now, though, we are seriously gearing up to the end times. Religion is slowly being pushed out of public view. I'm waiting for the day when Bibles will be illegal. Do you know where or how you will hide yours?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:17 pm

Val:-6

It does become a little bit absurd doesn't it.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Valerie100 · Post by **Valerie100** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:40 pm

So true. I agree, Ted.

ldsguy · Post by **ldsguy** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:05 am

Valerie100 wrote: I don't understand why they can't just teach the value of respect, as in being respectful of everyone's religious beliefs -- even if it means viewing the 10 Commandments outside of a courthouse, Bibles in courtrooms and hearing the words "God" and "Amen" in schools. The same thing applies to all religions and for that matter, the Pledge of Allegiance. This is America. It takes all kinds with all different belief systems. Just teach respect and in accepting our differences -- that doesn't mean accepting others' beliefs, by the way -- just being respectful about the differences that exist, then the problem is solved. The way things are now, though, we are seriously gearing up to the end times. Religion is slowly being pushed out of public view. I'm waiting for the day when Bibles will be illegal. Do you know where or how you will hide yours?

How true! We are indeed living in the end times and the time is coming when christianity will be ilegal! The western world is indeed deteriating fast. Values are being done away with. Gross imorality is no longer hiden but becoming the DONE thing. Disrespect for law, parents, teachers and elderly is growing fast. In short civilisation is begining to collapse. Don,t be fooled by people who tell you that more people are contributing to the poor and underdeveloped in the world etc., they are indeed but the trend is to more selfishness and greed and pleasure seeking regardless to the feelings of the majority.

all this is prophesized in the scriptures and will come to pass and end eventualy when the world is in such a state that unless the time is shortended no one would survive. We are now seeing the begining of sorrows.

We can stand up for Jesus - and be individualy saved. Or we can join the flow and be damned along with the rest. We have free agency.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:15 am

Valerie100 wrote: I don't understand why they can't just teach the value of respect, as in being respectful of everyone's religious beliefs -- even if it means viewing the 10 Commandments outside of a courthouse, Bibles in courtrooms and hearing the words "God" and "Amen" in schools. The same thing applies to all religions and for that matter, the Pledge of Allegiance. This is America. It takes all kinds with all different belief systems. Just teach respect and in accepting our differences -- that doesn't mean accepting others' beliefs, by the way -- just being respectful about the differences that exist, then the problem is solved. The way things are now, though, we are seriously gearing up to the end times. Religion is slowly being pushed out of public view. I'm waiting for the day when Bibles will be illegal. Do you know where or how you will hide yours?
It's not up to them. What they don't do is up to you, as one of my elementary school teachers used to say.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:44 pm

Unfortunately Accountable is correct. More and more is falling on the teacher. Sometimes they even get to teach a regular lesson. Then society wonders why the education system "seems" to be failing.

Shalom

Ted:-6

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:47 pm

Amen to that, Ted. Between reading/math/writing inserted into lessons at the middle and high school level, regular subjects can hardly be taught, state scores are the emphasis of alot of education now.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:47 pm

chonsigirl:-6

When state scores or as here in Canada the "Canadian Test of Basic Skills" are the basis on which we deal with children, education automatically goes by the way side. They are basically useless crap that really serves no educational purpose but makes administrators happy. To hell with the kids get those score up. Sad.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:19 am

Ted wrote: Unfortunately Accountable is correct. More and more is falling on the teacher. Sometimes they even get to teach a regular lesson. Then society wonders why the education system "seems" to be failing.

Shalom

Ted:-6
Sorry about the misunderstanding. My teacher taught us: "What they don't do is up to you." Meaning if you see a void nobody is taking responsibility for, maybe you should take responsibility and do it yourself.

randall · Post by **randall** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 12:11 pm

:-6

'evening all. randall here,

My forty odd year old nephew who has not had the nicest of starts in life quaintly refers to the "manny up above" as always looking down on him and helping him. "Ah keep spicking ti Him ah the time." he often says. And he is an oil rig man.

I do not believe in the term "Born Again Christian" and wish the media woud stop using it. You are either Christian or you are not.

Baptism is by choice and does not in itself make you a better person and some of the "Best Christians" I have met have made no claim to be of any faith and others were of other faiths.

Your example to others is the main thing and not what you say but what you do with your life, to others , etc.

An Irish comedian on the Jack Dee show the other night gave a hilarious description of the marriage of two people of different christian sects. I fully enjoyed it because in my experience it was very accurate.

His jokes about the Roman Catholic church would have many bishops and priests killing themselves with laughter because having been friends with some of them - one even visited me in hospital - they all had a great sense of humour.

The hospital room door opened and the Priest Father Angelo came in and looked at me and all my visitors with a beaming smile, "What is all the hilarity I heard from outside the door.?

My own minister was one of the visitors and it was obvious that this Church of Scotland man - seconded to the Union Church of Kowloon in Hong Kong - was already a friend of the Father's.

"It is indeed a lovely sight," he said with a slight Italian accent, "To see a padre in a hospital ward surrounded by his flock and having such a great time."

I have never been the same Baptist since my time in the far east.

My faith has a much wider base and is stronger for it.

God bless.

randall

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:40 am

Accountable wrote: Sorry about the misunderstanding. My teacher taught us: "What they don't do is up to you." Meaning if you see a void nobody is taking responsibility for, maybe you should take responsibility and do it yourself.

I would take it a step further. If you see an opportunity to do good and dont, then the sin is yours.

Adam Zapple · Post by **Adam Zapple** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:18 pm

a government that declares all religions equal

Isn't the alleged "separation clause" meant to prohibit the government from making any determinations about religion? If any government "declares all religions equal" then they have violated the religious freedoms of all.

venus · Post by **venus** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:52 am

Living in London gives me the pleasure of being surrounded by many cultures and faiths. I have friends , associates from almost all religions and cultures and not one of them is offended by anothers faith. I have always been curious and have never just accepted one side of a story. So being the curious child l was, brought up Protestant and then sent to a Catholic high school l asked questions. I was often not the most liked by the sister teaching religious education, but l was often the most vocal. In my school there were girls of various faiths and l would also question then. I have continued this practice into adulthood, l still ask questions and not blindly accept what someone tells me, no matter who they are.

I have since realised that we are all believers , we all have faith. Even if it is just faith in ourselves. I do believe there is a God so to speak and that we all call him different names. It is not religion that performs acts of evil it is man. Don't blame the religion. We all have our own brains and self will, that is the inner voice you should always listen too.

I respect all religions, even if l may not agree with their teachings. I detest all who have taken a religion and twisted and altered it to suit their own purpose.

Unfortunately there are cultures where this is more evident than most, often it is the culture and not the religion that is shocking..

The evil on this planet has two legs..

It is us, and the sooner we realise that we are all human, the better it will be.

We are so busy arguing, killing each other, the planet and its wonderful animals that we have so little time to sit back and feast our eyes on what is around us.

It is wonderful, the many coulours and differences in plant , animal and human.

That is the true wonder of the world, and if God gave it too us, then who are we to destroy it.

this is of course just my humble opinion.

as a good man l know says (peace , respect and humility) venus