Abrahmic religions discussion.Invitation for a Jew , christian and Muslim to discuss

[Samuel]

Abram Is Muslim;1219476 wrote: U aint a Jew to care


Neither are you a Jew.

[Samuel]

Abram Is Muslim;1219396 wrote: Then still need a proof that they were written by that time, and why they are the only accepted from the Eairly Church writtings , while many Other writtings have the same or more value to be trusted , like the Apostalic teachings , and the Apostalic traditions, already the four chosed Gospels have many mistakes.


See my post #44.

What some see as "mistakes" are usually mistakes on the part of the critic.

[Samuel]

Abram Is Muslim;1219397 wrote: Im not that lazy

But U should start talking a point a point and then say If u wanna know more about -X- click that link **********

Thats what I do at least.

And about the Gospel , the only found translation by Europian is in Spanish and the "" translation "" is modern,not the Gospel it self, and do not forget how many Gospels the Catholic Church burnt.


You seem to be bothered by what you think are mistakes in the NT, but what about the mistakes in the Gospel of Barnabas?

1. In the Gospel of Barnabas (Chapter 1) "Barnabas" is called an Apostle. This is not correct in its implication. Although Barnabas is referred to as an Apostle (Acts 14:4,14), the Gospel of Barnabas concept is quite different. It says in the introduction that Barnabas was one of the twelve original disciples of Jesus and he was not.

The conversion of Barnabas took place after the Day of Pentecost and consequently he does not qualify for apostleship as outlined in Acts 1:21-22. The Day of Pentecost happened after Jesus' resurrection so Barnabas was not one of the twelve.

2. The surprised reader of the Gospel of Barnabas finds Nazareth on the shore of Lake Galilee (Chapter 20), whereas it is a town miles away from the Lake, surrounded by mountains.

3. In the next chapter, we see Jesus going UP to Capernaum, whereas Capernaum is situated right on the shore of the Lake.

4. In Chapter 151 we are told that Jesus embarked on a ship (from Nazareth?) and next we read that he arrived in Jerusalem. We might well ask whether this was also done by boat?

5. In Chapter 6 another interesting common error is found. It speaks here of the three Magi or wise men coming from the East. The New Testament does not specify the number, but gives a list of three gifts that were brought by the Magi, namely gold, myrrh and frankincense. This later led to the assumption that there were three wise men from the East. But this belief certainly does not derive or date from the New Testament.

6. In Chapters 91-92 we are told that Jesus and His disciples kept "the 40 days". The context clearly shows that this refers to the period of Lent before Easter, celebrated by the church, but from a very much later period than the days of the early church. (The church meditates at this time on the suffering of Christ, which was obviously unknown when Christ was still alive). We find that Lent was celebrated only from the fourth century A.D. onwards. Jesus and His disciples are said to have gone for the 40 day fast to Mount Sinai. which is some 450 km away. There is no report in the New Testament to confirm this.

7. We are further informed that a certain dispute would have ended in war, but the Romans assembled three armies each numbering 200,000 men at Mizpeh (Chapter 91). The entire Roman army at that time numbered only 300,000, however. (Encyclopædia Britannica).

8. "Jesus drew near to the Priest (High Priest) with reverence, but he was wishful to bow himself down and worship Jesus, when Jesus cried out: 'Beware of that which thou doest, Priest of the Living God! Sin not against our God!" (Chapter 93).

This statement is so contrary to the New Testament, that it needs no explanation.

9. In Chapter 3 of the Gospel of Barnabas the birth of Christ is described as having been painless. This belief was not current in the Church before Thomas Aquinas (died 1278) but is mentioned in Sura 19:23

10. According to the Gospel of Barnabas Jesus was born when Pilate was governor, but in fact he only became governor between A.D. 26 and 27.

11. Jesus prayed five times a day according to the Gospel of Barnabas and all the Muslim prayer times are mentioned. (Drs. J. Slomp, page 128).

12. Not before the Fourth Century A.D. was the title "Virgin" given to Mary, yet it appears in the Gospel of Barnabas

13. Origen A.D. 184-254 was the first scholar to assume that Mount Tabor was the Mount of Transfiguration. The Bible does not confirm this. The Christian tradition that it was Mount Moriah begins only in the Third Century, and yet the Gospel of Barnabas contains this information.

14. The Gospel of Barnabas mentions four archangels, which is also a tradition of the church that dated from the early Medieval period.

15. The Islamic concept of "the Book" is found in Chapter 10, where we read that the angel Gabriel presented to Jesus as it were a shining mirror, a book, which descended into the heart of Jesus. This corresponds very well with Suras 5:49 and 2:97.

16. In Chapter 54, the Italian text mentions a denarius, which is made up of 60 minuti. These gold coins were used only in Spain under Khalif Abdul Malik (in 685 A.D.).

17. In Chapter 152 we are informed that soldiers were "rolled out of the temple as one rolleth casks of wood when they are washed to refill them with wine." Wooden barrels were invented in Gaul and were not used in the East in New Testament times. Wine and other liquids were stored in skins.

18. In Chapter 97 Mohammed is clearly called the Messiah. The Qur'an, as well as the Bible confers this title on Jesus. It is somehow strange to realize that in the introduction of the Gospel of Barnabas Jesus is called Christ and in Chapters 42 and 82 "Barnabas" denies that Jesus is the Messiah. Only a theologically very ignorant person could have made such statements, because "Christos" is the Greek word for the Hebrew "Messiah".

19. In "the true book of Moses ... (it) is written that Ishmael is the father of Messiah, and Isaac the father of the messenger of the Messiah" (Chapter 191).

20. In Chapter 222, the last chapter of the Gospel of Barnabas, we read: "After Jesus had departed (after having been raised from his hiding place through the window of the house in the Garden of Gethsemane) the disciples scattered through the different parts of Israel and of the world, and the truth, hated of Satan, was persecuted, as it always is, by falsehood. For certain evil men, pretending to be disciples, preached that Jesus died and rose not again. Others preached that he really died, but rose again. Others preached and yet preach that Jesus is the Son of God, among whom is Paul deceived."

The Gospel of Barnabas herewith endeavours to correct preceding Gospels and Paul. We wish to ask the question when and how was the writer aware that the disciples had scattered throughout the different parts of the world? This question is left open, but easily answered by us, for we believe that it is yet another anachronism.

21. The Italian poet Dante lived about the time of the composition of the Gospel of Barnabas (1265-1321) and it is interesting to notice a number of quotations from Dante's works in the Gospel of Barnabas There are many and they can hardly be regarded as coincidences. The Gospel of Barnabas quotes Jesus as saying to Peter: "Know ye therefore, that hell is one, yet hath seven centres one below another. Hence, even as sin is of seven kinds, for as seven gates of hell has Satan generated it: So are seven punishments therein." (Chapter 135a).

This is exactly what Dante says in Cantos V, VI, etc. of his "Inferno". Again "Barnabas" says that God, having created the human senses, condemned them "to hell and to intolerable snow and ice" (Chapter 106, which corresponds with Cantos XXVIII and III of the "Inferno"). The description of human sins and their returning at the end like a river to Satan, who is their source, is another indirect quotation from Dante's description of the rivers of hell. Similarly, the passages about the believers going to hell, not to be tortured, but to see the unbelievers in their torments, recalls to mind Dante's picture of the same. The differentiation between degrees of glory, and the absence of all feuds and jealousies in heaven, are taken entirely from Dante's "Paradise", Canto III. But still stronger evidence that "Barnabas" quotes directly or indirectly from Dante is his description of the "Geography of Heaven". There "Barnabas" agrees with Dante and contradicts even the Qur'an itself. The Qur'an (Sura 2:29) says that the heavens are seven in number, while "Barnabas" gives the number as nine (Chapter 178a) (Gairdner, pages 19-21).

These few indications are sufficient evidence that the writer of the Gospel of Barnabas must have been acquainted with the writings of Dante and consequently must have I lived after Dante, or else been a contemporary of his.

22. In Chapter 145 of the Gospel of Barnabas Pharisees date back as far as the time of Elijah and there were supposed to have been 17,000. In fact, history first knows about Pharisees seven centuries later, in the period between 135-104 B.C.

23. In Chapter 82 mention is made of the "Years of the Jubilee, which now cometh every 100 years." The Year of Jubilee, according to the Old Testament, was every 50th year (after seven times seven years). The origin of this faulty information is as follows: In the year A.D. 1300 Pope Boniface the VIII instituted the Jubilee as a centenary event. Owing to its financial success, however, Pope Clement VI reversed Boniface's decision and celebrated the next Jubilee in 1350. This was thus the only time that the Year of Jubilee was intended as a centenary occasion - it never was in practice. (Gairdner, page 19).

24. Eve is said to have eaten an "apple" in Paradise (Chapters 40 and 41). We are well aware that Eve ate an unspecified fruit, but the belief that this was an apple dates from a very much later date.

25. Another proof of the Gospel of Barnabas being Medieval in origin, is that we have a report (Chapter 99) of a duel between two rival lovers. This type of chivalry was a creation of Medieval society (Gairdner, page 24).

26. In Chapter 80 of the Gospel of Barnabas we find a story about Daniel, which has it that he was taken captive by Nebuchadnezzar while he was yet two years old. This statement, it will be observed, is incompatible with what may be inferred from the Bible narrative. According to the latter, it was in the second year of his reign that Nebuchadnezzar had his famous dream, which Daniel interpreted.

"Then the King gave Daniel high honours and many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief prefect over the all-wise men of Babylon." (Daniel 2:48).

Now if we suppose that Nebuchadnezzar captured Daniel in the first year of his reign (the earliest possible date, which could be assigned to Daniel's captivity) and that, according to "Barnabas", Daniel was then two years old, it would follow then that in the second year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign, Daniel was only three years old (Gairdner, page 26). Daniel was in fact born in 621 B.C. and the captivity began in 605 B.C., so he was 16 years old when taken prisoner.

27. We read that Ishmael was offered on the altar by Abraham (Chapter 44). This is clearly an Islamic concept.

28. God is said to be the God of Abraham, ISHMAEL and Isaac in Chapter 212. It should read, according to the O.T. the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

29. We find it highly suspicious and wrong to read that the Torah was written by an Ismaelite (Chapter 192).

30. Most suspicious of course, is any mentioning of the name of Mohammed. (In Chapters 44, 54, 112, 97 and 163, etc.) It is particularly suspicious, since all the other evidence points to the fact that the whole of the G.o.B is a Medieval forgery. But other Islamic thought is also reflected in the Gospel of Barnabas

31. In Chapter 39 Adam sees bright writing and the content is none other than the Kalimah. There is only one God" and "Mohammed is the Messenger of God."

32. Muslims who accept the Gospel of Barnabas ought to consider the fact that in Chapter 115 it very strongly endorses monogamy.

33. Likewise we refer to Chapter 38, in which the Islamic principle of abrogation is rejected.

The Muslim scholar Cyril Glassé states:

As regards the "Gospel of Barnabas" itself, there is no question that it is a medieval forgery. A complete Italian manuscript exists which appears to be a translation from a Spanish original (which exists in part), written to curry favor with Muslims of the time. It contains anachronisms which can date only from the Middle Ages and not before, and shows a garbled comprehension of Islamic doctrines, calling the Prophet "the Messiah", which Islam does not claim for him. Besides its farcical notion of sacred history, stylistically it is a mediocre parody of the Gospels, as the writings of Baha'Allah are of the Koran.

The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, Harper & Row, 1989, p. 64

[Samuel]

Abram Is Muslim;1219397 wrote:

and do not forget how many Gospels the Catholic Church burnt.


Didn't the Church burn books to keep them out of the Bible?

Email: What do you have to say about all the things I hear about how there were so many books burned by the church because it was in accordance to what they wanted. Is there proof that there are really only 66 books of the bible? Proof that there were books that really weren't burned?

Response: It is easy to make accusations that the church burned books. But the Roman Catholic Church was not in existence until the late 200's early 300's as an organization -- but it did not become as structured and organized until sometime after that.

In addition, we have copies of manuscripts that predate the formation of the Roman Catholic Church. It was the Christian Church, not the Roman Catholic Church, in the early church councils that recognize what was really Scripture. Generally speaking, in order to be New Testament scripture the document had to be written by an apostle or under the direct guiding of an apostle. The so-called missing books were never written by apostles nor were they written by anyone under the guidance of apostles so they were never supposed to be included in the Bible and the first place. The early church recognized that these were false writings. (CARM)



Speaking of burned books. What about all the Qur’ans Uthman burned? What about the 10’s of thousands of sayings of Muhammad that were destroyed?

[Samuel]

Abram Is Muslim;1219475 wrote:

Matthew 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Well, lets say there was Gnostic theology in the Eairly Church , but already there was another paganism theology in the Eailry Church, while the paganism theology had the political power,in a panan enviroment , the chance of the pure Christianty was a little.

Let me give u ,examples, the Church Fathers , the Early Church Fathers



Like





The similarities between the Paganism theology's stories and the pagan storys are clear, like the storys of Bacchus, Dionysos,and Osiris .

Oo ,another important point about the Gnostic theology

Gnosticism, which gets its name from the Greek word gnosis ("knowledge") was a religious movement beginning, possibly, before the time of Christ and extending into the first few centuries of the Christian era. Gnostics viewed themselves as "those who know." , it existed before Christianty, it aint a branch of Christianty , its a religiouse movement existed before Christianty , and the Eairly Christian writters were affected by it.

Have u readed the Secret Gospel of Thomas, where Thomas describe Jesus as a human , like a light from God , but we all human have that light and can reach God , and not even through Jesus, thats what we Muslims call "Fetrah" the natural of the human in knowing God,many believe that the Gospel of John was a Gospel written answering the Gospel of Thomas, where only writter of the Gospel of John described Thomas by the weak faith , and that clear in John 20:24-29 , and just Only the writter of the Gospel-so called-John said that about Thomas, and the writter of the Gospel of John insisted on Jesus as the light of the world, and no way to God , but through him.

We know how the Eailry church burnt many Gospels calling it Genostic , or whatever it wanted , but what make us sure of the 27 books they picked, we all know what the Eairly church faced of corruption in its begining , we know what the Catholic church did specially .



God says in Quran,

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. (Quran4:157)

The Christianty was affected clearly by the paganism



Its hard to know the real from the fake in our days about the Eairly church , the Church burnt everything , but What God wanted to save for us to read and know.


The New Testament was not influenced by Paganism.

However, the Qur'an incorporates paganism into the beliefs of Islam.

The Pagan Religious Sources of Islam

As Muhammad developed Islam he borrowed from the other regional religions present in the Mideast. These religions include Judaism, Christianity, Sabeanism, Zoroastrianism, and forms of paganism. Judaism is the largest contributor to Islam, followed by Christianity, then followed by the various pagan religions, and Muhammad’s mind. These pagan borrowings constitute significant facets of Islam and this article details some of these pagan contributions.

Conclusion:

It's not difficult to see how Muhammad heard various sacred religious stories, and incorporated them into Islam. Perhaps he thought that parts of those religions contained truth, so he adopted what he thought to be correct. But nevertheless, part of the foundation of Islam is paganism.

[Samuel]

Samuel;1219055 wrote: You have to understand Gnostic theology and you don't.

The Gospel of Judas was written well after Judas died. He did not write it.

This particular forum of Gnosticism identified with the villains of the Bible. The believed the God of this world is evil, and so anyone that he hates must really be a hero. So they would lionize people such as Judas.

The Gnostic theology in the Apocalypse (Coptic) of Peter regarded Jesus as a human being and Christ as a God who manifested Himself as a spirit. The character of Christ mocks those who are crucifying Jesus. In the Acts of John, which is another docetic writing, the character of spirit-Christ even laughs at Yahweh, the God of the Jews as being the miscreant of the higher goddess, Sophia.

Nevertheless, both of these docetic works insist that Jesus was crucified but not His divine alter-ego, whom they call "Christ."


Abrahm, did you understand what I said, which refuts your post:

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/1219016-post33.html

????

[Abram Is Muslim]

Samuel;1219553 wrote: The New Testament was not influenced by Paganism.

However, the Qur'an incorporates paganism into the beliefs of Islam.

The Pagan Religious Sources of Islam

.


Im sorry for being late ,I have many stuff to finish for my school, its my graduation year gonna start NshAllah,

Well I talked about that again and again and again before,

The Christians and Jews believes that God picked the Jews and made them over whole the huminity,

Exodus 3:10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.

Look , he call their as his people , in the OT , and NT , Go look racist , so bad racist,

Exodus 7:16 And thou shalt say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath sent me unto thee, saying, Let my people go, that they may serve me in the wilderness: and, behold, hitherto thou wouldest not hear.

The LORD , the God of (Hebrews) , he was clearly racist,

He even asked his people, the Hebrews to kill the kids and women,

Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

And even the NetTestament show that racism,

Mark7:25 For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet: 26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. 27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. 28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs. 29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.

While Quran says:

And never did thy Lord destroy the townships, till He had raised up in their mother(-town) a messenger reciting unto them Our revelations. And never did We destroy the townships unless the folk thereof were evil-doers. (Quran 28:59)

We believe that Abram , taught all the huminity the Monotheism and believing in One God , and built the Kabah, some will say , hey that aint real , well I think an Independant source will be great, right...??



Muhammad (pbuh) prophesised in Bhavishya Purana





According to Bhavishya Purana in the Prati Sarag Parv III Khand 3 Adhay 3 Shloka 5 to 8.

"A malecha (belonging to a foreign country and speaking a foreign language) spiritual teacher will appear with his companions. His name will be Mohammad. Raja (Bhoj) after giving this Maha Dev Arab (of angelic disposition) a bath in the Panchgavya and the Ganga water (i.e. purifying him of all sins) offered him the present of his sincere devotion and showing him all reverence said, "I make obeisance to thee. O ye! The pride of mankind, the dweller in Arabia, Ye have collected a great force to kill the Devil and you yourself have been protected from the malecha opponents."

The Prophecy clearly states:




The name of the Prophet as Mohammad.



He will belong to Arabia. The Sanskrit word Marusthal means a sandy track of land or a desert.



Special mention is made of the companions of the Prophet, i.e. the Sahabas. No other Prophet had as many companions as Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).



He is referred as the pride of mankind (Parbatis nath). The Glorious Qur’an reconfirms this

"And thou (standest) on an exalted standard of character"

[Al-Qur'an 68:4]|

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah, a beautiful pattern (of conduct)".

[Al-Qur'an 33:21]

He will kill the devil, i.e. abolish idol worship and all sorts of vices.

The Prophet will be given protection against his enemy.


Some people may argue that ‘Raja’ Bhoj mentioned in the prophecy lived in the 11th century C.E. 500 years after the advent of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and was the descendant in the 10th generation of Raja Shalivahan. These people fail to realise that there was not only one Raja of the name Bhoj. The Egyptian Monarchs were called as Pharaoh and the Roman Kings were known as Caesar, similarly the Indian Rajas were given the title of Bhoj. There were several Raja Bhoj who came before the one in 11th Century C.E.

The Prophet did not physically take a bath in the Panchgavya and the water of Ganges. Since the water of Ganges is considered holy, taking bath in the Ganges is an idiom, which means washing away sins or immunity from all sorts of sins. Here the prophecy implies that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was sinless, i.e. Maasoom.



To learn more goes here,

And in the same criptures in part 3 , it talks about God asked Abram to build a house for him ..

Last thing, its known that Arabs before Islam were believing in God , but worshipping him through Idols , like the Jews did , when Moses was on the mountain, last thing , Do u know when that Hindu scripture was written ....??

Thousands years before Muhamed (PBUH) comming.

Can u as a Christian tell me , how the Hindu scriptures are written before the Bible , and tells the story of the prophets all.....???

wich prophet was sent to them....??

And by the way many prophets of Bible , came to Meccah and did pilgrame to Mecca,

Paran in the Bible is Mecca today:

The sections of this article are:

1- Paran in the Bible is Mecca today.

2- Abraham peace be upon him sent Hagar and Ishmael to Paran.

3- Mecca, Bacca and Paran.

4- More Verses on Paran.

5- Kaabah (the cube black building in Mecca) and Mecca.

6- Paul in the book of Galatians and the most recent Archeological Discoveries

suggest that Mount Sinai is in Saudi Arabia and NOT in Egypt's Sinai desert.

7- Christian Archeologists prove from the Bible that Mount Sinai is in "Saudi Arabia" today.

8- Muhammad in the Bible, (Isaiah 60), Pilgrimage to Mecca..!

9- References/Links.

Here--->

and about the Eairly Chuech Trinity Quotes , I have a long comment about it , sorry for not having time to type it,I wanted to answer this point first , because of its importance

[Samuel]

Abram Is Muslim;1220688 wrote:

Im sorry for being late ,I have many stuff to finish for my school, its my graduation year gonna start NshAllah,

Well I talked about that again and again and again before,

The Christians and Jews believes that God picked the Jews and made them over whole the huminity,

Exodus 3:10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.

Look , he call their as his people , in the OT , and NT , Go look racist , so bad racist,

Exodus 7:16 And thou shalt say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath sent me unto thee, saying, Let my people go, that they may serve me in the wilderness: and, behold, hitherto thou wouldest not hear.

The LORD , the God of (Hebrews) , he was clearly racist,

He even asked his people, the Hebrews to kill the kids and women,

Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

And even the NetTestament show that racism,

Mark7:25 For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet: 26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. 27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. 28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs. 29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.

While Quran says:

And never did thy Lord destroy the townships, till He had raised up in their mother(-town) a messenger reciting unto them Our revelations. And never did We destroy the townships unless the folk thereof were evil-doers. (Quran 28:59)

We believe that Abram , taught all the huminity the Monotheism and believing in One God , and built the Kabah, some will say , hey that aint real , well I think an Independant source will be great, right...??


I would be very careful calling the Creator a racist, Abram. According to your quote Muslims did destroy townships.



Abram Is Muslim;1220688 wrote:



Muhammad (pbuh) prophesised in Bhavishya Purana





According to Bhavishya Purana in the Prati Sarag Parv III Khand 3 Adhay 3 Shloka 5 to 8.

"A malecha (belonging to a foreign country and speaking a foreign language) spiritual teacher will appear with his companions. His name will be Mohammad. Raja (Bhoj) after giving this Maha Dev Arab (of angelic disposition) a bath in the Panchgavya and the Ganga water (i.e. purifying him of all sins) offered him the present of his sincere devotion and showing him all reverence said, "I make obeisance to thee. O ye! The pride of mankind, the dweller in Arabia, Ye have collected a great force to kill the Devil and you yourself have been protected from the malecha opponents."

The Prophecy clearly states:




The name of the Prophet as Mohammad.



He will belong to Arabia. The Sanskrit word Marusthal means a sandy track of land or a desert.



Special mention is made of the companions of the Prophet, i.e. the Sahabas. No other Prophet had as many companions as Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).



He is referred as the pride of mankind (Parbatis nath). The Glorious Qur’an reconfirms this

"And thou (standest) on an exalted standard of character"

[Al-Qur'an 68:4]|

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah, a beautiful pattern (of conduct)".

[Al-Qur'an 33:21]

He will kill the devil, i.e. abolish idol worship and all sorts of vices.

The Prophet will be given protection against his enemy.


Some people may argue that ‘Raja’ Bhoj mentioned in the prophecy lived in the 11th century C.E. 500 years after the advent of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and was the descendant in the 10th generation of Raja Shalivahan. These people fail to realise that there was not only one Raja of the name Bhoj. The Egyptian Monarchs were called as Pharaoh and the Roman Kings were known as Caesar, similarly the Indian Rajas were given the title of Bhoj. There were several Raja Bhoj who came before the one in 11th Century C.E.

The Prophet did not physically take a bath in the Panchgavya and the water of Ganges. Since the water of Ganges is considered holy, taking bath in the Ganges is an idiom, which means washing away sins or immunity from all sorts of sins. Here the prophecy implies that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was sinless, i.e. Maasoom.



To learn more goes here,

And in the same criptures in part 3 , it talks about God asked Abram to build a house for him ..

Last thing, its known that Arabs before Islam were believing in God , but worshipping him through Idols , like the Jews did , when Moses was on the mountain, last thing , Do u know when that Hindu scripture was written ....??

Thousands years before Muhamed (PBUH) comming.

Can u as a Christian tell me , how the Hindu scriptures are written before the Bible , and tells the story of the prophets all.....???

wich prophet was sent to them....??


Muhammad is not in the Hindu scriptures.

Is Muhammad Predicted in Hindu Scriptures? Description from Vedas talking about Prophet Mohammed

Prophet Muhammad in Hindu Scriptures?

Abram Is Muslim;1220688 wrote:

And by the way many prophets of Bible , came to Meccah and did pilgrame to Mecca,

Paran in the Bible is Mecca today:

The sections of this article are:

1- Paran in the Bible is Mecca today.

2- Abraham peace be upon him sent Hagar and Ishmael to Paran.

3- Mecca, Bacca and Paran.

4- More Verses on Paran.

5- Kaabah (the cube black building in Mecca) and Mecca.

6- Paul in the book of Galatians and the most recent Archeological Discoveries

suggest that Mount Sinai is in Saudi Arabia and NOT in Egypt's Sinai desert.

7- Christian Archeologists prove from the Bible that Mount Sinai is in "Saudi Arabia" today.

8- Muhammad in the Bible, (Isaiah 60), Pilgrimage to Mecca..!

9- References/Links.

Here--->


Paran in the Bible is in the Sinai Peninsula, not in Saudi Arabia.

Abram Is Muslim;1220688 wrote:

and about the Eairly Chuech Trinity Quotes , I have a long comment about it , sorry for not having time to type it,I wanted to answer this point first , because of its importance


I said the Trinity concept is biblical.

What about the paganism incorporated into the Qur'an?

[Abram Is Muslim]

Samuel;1220714 wrote: I would be very careful calling the Creator a racist, Abram. According to your quote Muslims did destroy townships.




Well , friend

In Quran , God never asked for killing kids,women,and aged, In Quran it says

There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower. (Quran 2:256)

Sanction (to fight) is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged; and Allah is indeed Able to give them victory; (39) Those who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said: Our Lord is Allah - For had it not been for Allah's repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and oratories and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down. Verily Allah helpeth one who helpeth Him. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty - (Quran 22:40)

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. (Quran 2:190)

The prophet used to advise the Army those 10 advises,

I advise you ten things| Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camels except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the booty, and do not be cowardly.”

Can u compare that and the fighting in the Bible....???"I think it would never make sense"

God in Quran says

And never did thy Lord destroy the townships, till He had raised up in their mother(-town) a messenger reciting unto them Our revelations. And never did We destroy the townships unless the folk thereof were evil-doers. (Quran 28:59)

While in ur Bible , he says:

Exodus 3:10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.

Look , he call their as his people , in the OT , and NT , Go look racist , so bad racist,

Exodus 7:16 And thou shalt say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath sent me unto thee, saying, Let my people go, that they may serve me in the wilderness: and, behold, hitherto thou wouldest not hear.

The LORD , the God of (Hebrews) , he was clearly racist,

He even asked his people, the Hebrews to kill the kids and women,

Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

And even the NetTestament show that racism,

Mark7:25 For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet: 26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. 27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. 28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs. 29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.

Well Jesus , we aint dogs , ur beloved Jews , killed you , and treated u like a ****, and after they treated u that bad , u know try to get the love of the dogs....?? well Jesus the dogs forgive u for what u said , but wont worship u rather than the Only and One God.

at last , friend

Quran tlked about punishing the non believers ,who fight against the believers , and the story of the people of Lot , is in Bible as in Quran , and the Story of Nouh "Nonan" in both too, but killing kids,women, and aged , just in ur Bible.

Samuel;1220714 wrote:

Muhammad is not in the Hindu scriptures.

Is Muhammad Predicted in Hindu Scriptures? Description from Vedas talking about Prophet Mohammed

Prophet Muhammad in Hindu Scriptures?


Thats why I always say read the links before u post it , reread ur links , the first one has no relation to my post , and the second one , try to say , the Hindu scriptures mentioned Jesus too , so....:guitarist

So what I said that a prophet traught them all of that is real, specially that their books are written before ur Scriptures , ur 2nd link doesnt give answers over that



Samuel;1220714 wrote:

Paran in the Bible is in the Sinai Peninsula, not in Saudi Arabia.




The Jews before u also said that Jesus aint the Messiah , and now as they denied Jesus , u do ur best to deny Muhamed PBUH , by the way , just look at the link.



Samuel;1220714 wrote:

I said the Trinity concept is biblical.

What about the paganism incorporated into the Qur'an?


:D:DCan u give Examples:sneaky:

Last thing: Do u believe that Bible never make mistakes....??

[Samuel]

Abram Is Muslim;1220863 wrote:

:D:DCan u give Examples:sneaky:


I already did. Search for it.

Abram Is Muslim;1220863 wrote:

Last thing: Do u believe that Bible never make mistakes....??


What some critics see as "mistakes" in the Bible are usually the mistakes of the critics.

[Samuel]

Abram Is Muslim;1220863 wrote:

The Jews before u also said that Jesus aint the Messiah , and now as they denied Jesus , u do ur best to deny Muhamed PBUH , by the way , just look at the link.


What does that have to do with where Paren is?

Here is a map of Paren and you will see it is not in Saudi Arabia.

Bible Study - Wilderness Journey

[Samuel]

Abram Is Muslim;1220863 wrote: Well , friend

In Quran , God never asked for killing kids,women,and aged,


Allah killed men, women and children in Sodom and Gomorrah and the people in the flood.

Muhammad was not above killing children.

Recorded in both Bukhari and Sahih Muslim:

It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: “They are from them.” (Sahih Muslim 4322, see also Bukhari 52:256)

Muhammad drew a distinction between Muslim and non-Muslim children and said that it would be permissible to kill a child who has no prospect of accepting Islam:

The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used not to kill the children, so thou shouldst not kill them unless you could know what Khadir had known about the child he killed, or you could distinguish between a child who would grow up to he a believer (and a child who would grow up to be a non-believer), so that you killed the (prospective) non-believer and left the (prospective) believer aside. (Sahih Muslim 4457)

After capturing Mecca, Muhammad ordered the execution of two “singing girls” who had mocked him in verse:

“…two singing-girls Fartana and her friend who used to sing satirical songs about the apostle, so he ordered that they should be killed…” (Ibn Ishaq 819)

[Abram Is Muslim]

Samuel;1220888 wrote: Allah killed men, women and children in Sodom and Gomorrah and the people in the flood.


Aint that story in the Bible Or im confused :sneaky:

and we will take time discussing it , but let me focuse on the sexy َQuestion u asked



Samuel;1220888 wrote:

Muhammad was not above killing children.

Recorded in both Bukhari and Sahih Muslim:

It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: “They are from them.” (Sahih Muslim 4322, see also Bukhari 52:256)


Again repeating My self for You :guitarist

Sanction (to fight) is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged; and Allah is indeed Able to give them victory; (39) Those who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said: Our Lord is Allah - For had it not been for Allah's repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and oratories and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down. Verily Allah helpeth one who helpeth Him. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty - (Quran 22:40)

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. (Quran 2:190)

The prophet used to advise the Army those 10 advises,

I advise you ten things| Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camels except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the booty, and do not be cowardly.”

And thats ur Hadith,



I do not know , how u couldnt see the Other two after it , anyways in Islam , you can never find an order of killing kids , like ur Bible, and u even see Islam prevent it everywhere, and in the Hadith , u mentioned ,something u do not know , when two Armys fight used to fight in the Arabian desert , before Islam , they used to bring their kids and women with them to the land of the battle , as encouragement for them to win, and the Muslims asked the prophet can we fight them at night , and they will be a probability that women and kids be in danger [probablity] ,no ur Yahew says kill kids, women and and and, U compare by ur self,

Ezekiel 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. 7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city

It known that any war has civilian victims , but the point are those civilians got killed on puropose or not, in ur Bible , its on purpose



Samuel;1220888 wrote:

Muhammad drew a distinction between Muslim and non-Muslim children and said that it would be permissible to kill a child who has no prospect of accepting Islam:

The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used not to kill the children, so thou shouldst not kill them unless you could know what Khadir had known about the child he killed, or you could distinguish between a child who would grow up to he a believer (and a child who would grow up to be a non-believer), so that you killed the (prospective) non-believer and left the (prospective) believer aside. (Sahih Muslim 4457)



(2) This tradition has been narrated by the game authority (Yazid b. Hurmus) through a different chain of transmitters with the following difference in the elucidation of one of the points raised by Najda in his letter to Ibn Abas: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used not to kill the children, so thou shouldst not kill them unless you could know what Khadir had known about the child he killed, or you could distinguish between a child who would grow up to he a believer (and a child who would grow up to be a non-believer), so that you killed the (prospective) non-believer and left the (prospective) believer aside. (Book #019, Hadith #4457)


One of two , U cant read , or u cant understand ,the Hadith talks here about a story of a man called Khadir and his story with prophet Moses , it aint written in ur corrupted Book, as we will mention its corruption in time , and God gave that man the ability to know the future,and the prophet here simply , donot kill any kid , u do not know ,what he will be when he grow up , coz he may be a greater Muslim, sir



[QUOTE=Samuel;1220888]

After capturing Mecca, Muhammad ordered the execution of two “singing girls” who had mocked him in verse:

“…two singing-girls Fartana and her friend who used to sing satirical songs about the apostle, so he ordered that they should be killed…” (Ibn Ishaq 819)


thats the Hadith in Arabic

وكانت له قينتان فرتنى وصاحبتها ، وكانتا تغنيان بهجاء رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فأمر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم بقتلهما معه . والحويرث بن نقيذ بن وهب بن عبد بن قصي ، وكان ممن يؤذيه بمكة .

and قينتان means harolt women [bought] slaves , if its easily for u to understand,they were singing mocking God , and his messanger,قينتان aint girls ,Sir

They were moacking Islam, while God , and his messanger, in the country in Islam,where they live among Muslims, and Meccah aint captured friend, its the place where God orderd Abram to build his house , and when God order the believer to open it , that aint capturing ....and already the Muslims who opened it , are the Muslims were kicked out of it , when they converted into Islam, and lastly there was nothing called Occuption that Era,there was no political system , nor boards, it was tribes living in the desert living under changeable powers, and Islam for the first time established a country..

Compare that and ur Bible

[Abram Is Muslim]

Samuel;1220884 wrote: What does that have to do with where Paren is?

Here is a map of Paren and you will see it is not in Saudi Arabia.

Bible Study - Wilderness Journey


hey friend:D what a cute historical map , hey do u want me to draw u a map making Paran in NC , read more about MT-Sinia , and where they think it lies nowadays :sneaky:

[Samuel]

Abram Is Muslim;1221178 wrote: hey friend:D what a cute historical map , hey do u want me to draw u a map making Paran in NC , read more about MT-Sinia , and where they think it lies nowadays :sneaky:


The biblical Paran is in the Sinai Peninsula as the map clearly shows.

[Samuel]

Abram Is Muslim;1221176 wrote: Aint that story in the Bible Or im confused :sneaky:

and we will take time discussing it , but let me focuse on the sexy َQuestion u asked





Again repeating My self for You :guitarist

Sanction (to fight) is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged; and Allah is indeed Able to give them victory; (39) Those who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said: Our Lord is Allah - For had it not been for Allah's repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and oratories and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down. Verily Allah helpeth one who helpeth Him. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty - (Quran 22:40)

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. (Quran 2:190)

The prophet used to advise the Army those 10 advises,

I advise you ten things| Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camels except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the booty, and do not be cowardly.”

And thats ur Hadith,



I do not know , how u couldnt see the Other two after it , anyways in Islam , you can never find an order of killing kids , like ur Bible, and u even see Islam prevent it everywhere, and in the Hadith , u mentioned ,something u do not know , when two Armys fight used to fight in the Arabian desert , before Islam , they used to bring their kids and women with them to the land of the battle , as encouragement for them to win, and the Muslims asked the prophet can we fight them at night , and they will be a probability that women and kids be in danger [probablity] ,no ur Yahew says kill kids, women and and and, U compare by ur self,

Ezekiel 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. 7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city

It known that any war has civilian victims , but the point are those civilians got killed on puropose or not, in ur Bible , its on purpose



[QUOTE=Samuel;1220888]

Muhammad drew a distinction between Muslim and non-Muslim children and said that it would be permissible to kill a child who has no prospect of accepting Islam:

The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used not to kill the children, so thou shouldst not kill them unless you could know what Khadir had known about the child he killed, or you could distinguish between a child who would grow up to he a believer (and a child who would grow up to be a non-believer), so that you killed the (prospective) non-believer and left the (prospective) believer aside. (Sahih Muslim 4457)

Liar bad to be that age and lie Mr,



One of two , U cant read , or u cant understand ,the Hadith talks here about a story of a man called Khadir and his story with prophet Moses , it aint written in ur corrupted Book, as we will mention its corruption in time , and God gave that man the ability to know the future,and the prophet here simply , donot kill any kid , u do not know ,what he will be when he grow up , coz he may be a greater Muslim, sir





Lieing again :sneaky:

thats the Hadith in Arabic

وكانت له قينتان فرتنى وصاحبتها ، وكانتا تغنيان بهجاء رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فأمر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم بقتلهما معه . والحويرث بن نقيذ بن وهب بن عبد بن قصي ، وكان ممن يؤذيه بمكة .

and قينتان means harolt women [bought] slaves , if its easily for u to understand,they were singing mocking God , and his messanger,قينتان aint girls ,Sir

They were moacking Islam, while God , and his messanger, in the country in Islam,where they live among Muslims, and Meccah aint captured friend, its the place where God orderd Abram to build his house , and when God order the believer to open it , that aint capturing ....and already the Muslims who opened it , are the Muslims were kicked out of it , when they converted into Islam, and lastly there was nothing called Occuption that Era,there was no political system , nor boards, it was tribes living in the desert living under changeable powers, and Islam for the first time established a country..

Compare that and ur Bible


I don't appreciate being called a liar. Our conversations are over.

Good day to you.

[Abram Is Muslim]

Samuel;1221473 wrote: [QUOTE=Abram Is Muslim;1221176]Aint that story in the Bible Or im confused :sneaky:

and we will take time discussing it , but let me focuse on the sexy َQuestion u asked





Again repeating My self for You :guitarist

Sanction (to fight) is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged; and Allah is indeed Able to give them victory; (39) Those who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said: Our Lord is Allah - For had it not been for Allah's repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and oratories and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down. Verily Allah helpeth one who helpeth Him. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty - (Quran 22:40)

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. (Quran 2:190)

The prophet used to advise the Army those 10 advises,

I advise you ten things| Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camels except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the booty, and do not be cowardly.”

And thats ur Hadith,



I do not know , how u couldnt see the Other two after it , anyways in Islam , you can never find an order of killing kids , like ur Bible, and u even see Islam prevent it everywhere, and in the Hadith , u mentioned ,something u do not know , when two Armys fight used to fight in the Arabian desert , before Islam , they used to bring their kids and women with them to the land of the battle , as encouragement for them to win, and the Muslims asked the prophet can we fight them at night , and they will be a probability that women and kids be in danger [probablity] ,no ur Yahew says kill kids, women and and and, U compare by ur self,

Ezekiel 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. 7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city

It known that any war has civilian victims , but the point are those civilians got killed on puropose or not, in ur Bible , its on purpose





I don't appreciate being called a liar. Our conversations are over.

Good day to you.


Im sorry , and I didnt mean it , Im really indeed sorry

[freethinkingthuthseeker]

Where do you get the idea that Muslim is an abrahamic faith?

The only thing I have heard relation to the old testement is that possibly Ismael. Abrahms illigitemat son may have been an ancestor of Muhaameds but the line of prophets all the way down t6o Jesus goes through his other son Isaac. There is no geneological history of Ismael accept that he had children?

Therefore the idea that Mohaamed is fom the line of Abrahm is highly suspect yes?

[Bryn Mawr]

freethinkingthuthseeker;1270706 wrote: Where do you get the idea that Muslim is an abrahamic faith?

The only thing I have heard relation to the old testement is that possibly Ismael. Abrahms illigitemat son may have been an ancestor of Muhaameds but the line of prophets all the way down t6o Jesus goes through his other son Isaac. There is no geneological history of Ismael accept that he had children?

Therefore the idea that Mohaamed is fom the line of Abrahm is highly suspect yes?


Wrong concept - the idea is not that Mohamed is of the line of Abraham but that Islam takes its core belief system from the Abrahamic faith. As Christianity accepts the Pentateuch as part of the Old Testament so Islam accepts it as part of its core teachings.

[freethinkingthuthseeker]

Thank you for that clarification.

However if it is the case that Islam follows the Old testament it is highly contradictory in several respects concerning references to Noah, Moses, Jesus and more

[Bryn Mawr]

freethinkingthuthseeker;1270785 wrote: Thank you for that clarification.

However if it is the case that Islam follows the Old testament it is highly contradictory in several respects concerning references to Noah, Moses, Jesus and more


Three points :-

Jesus, not being Old Testament, cannot be included in your list

It does not need to be an exact copy of Abrahamic belief in order to be based on it

I did not say Old Testament, I said Pentateuch.



You're assuming conditions that do not exist in what was suggested - answering the question you wish had been asked maybe?

[freethinkingthuthseeker]

perhaps i was a little too eagerly however differences between the Quran and Bible can be found through this link: Muhammad said: I am ALL the Prophets

regards

k

[Bryn Mawr]

freethinkingthuthseeker;1271042 wrote: perhaps i was a little too eagerly however differences between the Quran and Bible can be found through this link: Muhammad said: I am ALL the Prophets

regards

k


It does not need to be an exact copy of Abrahamic belief in order to be based on it

[freethinkingthuthseeker]

I find the muslim claim to abraham spurious, would you care to credify it?

[Bryn Mawr]

freethinkingthuthseeker;1277218 wrote: I find the muslim claim to abraham spurious, would you care to credify it?


In what way is is spurious - if I know where your misunderstanding starts I'll have a better chance of correcting it.

[freethinkingthuthseeker]

In my unerstanding of thier cliam to Abrahamic thought it is more than monotheistic.

They claim a line through Abraham via the illigitimate son Ishmael through to thier so called Phrophet Mohammed, although the line within the Bible goes much further through Issiah than the one generation beyond Ismael.

I also understand that Mohammed specifically asked them not to trace his geneological tree back beyond a few generations.

Have you read the quran?

[Bryn Mawr]

freethinkingthuthseeker;1279130 wrote: In my unerstanding of thier cliam to Abrahamic thought it is more than monotheistic.

They claim a line through Abraham via the illigitimate son Ishmael through to thier so called Phrophet Mohammed, although the line within the Bible goes much further through Issiah than the one generation beyond Ismael.

I also understand that Mohammed specifically asked them not to trace his geneological tree back beyond a few generations.

Have you read the quran?


You claim to be a free thinking seeker of the truth but you cannot even type the name of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) without adding an insult - it is little wonder that you found scant pickings in your visits to Islamic forums.

We've already discussed (posts 68 & 69) your strange idea that to be an Abrahamic religion the Prophet must be a descendant of Abraham. It is the lineage of the religion that we are discussing, not the lineage of the Prophet.

And yes, I have read the Qu'ran as I have read the Bible and parts of the Vedas and the Sutras

[freethinkingthuthseeker]

Bryn a few quesions to your last response

What do you mean that I cannot mention Mohammed without insults? Pls eloborate from the quote of mine what constitutes an insult if you can

What does your parenthetic abbreviation mean?

What can be interesting without truth and true spirituality? The rest is mere distraction.

What is your opinion of the quran and what language - if that is important did you read it in?

If you give equal merit to the qoran as to the Bible, what new WISDOM - as opposed to " scientific" ideas ( the stock response from muslims when asked the Wisdom question) - can we find in the quran? Believe me I looked!

Why is the quran in your opinion so incredibly repetitive?

With respect and sincerity

k

[Bryn Mawr]

freethinkingthuthseeker;1280497 wrote: Bryn a few quesions to your last response

What do you mean that I cannot mention Mohammed without insults? Pls eloborate from the quote of mine what constitutes an insult if you can


That you could not refer to the Prophet Muhammed without making it into "thier so called Phrophet Mohammed,". How would you react to a Muslim referring to Jesus in that way?

freethinkingthuthseeker;1280497 wrote: What does your parenthetic abbreviation mean?




Peace Be Upon Him - it is considered to be respectful usage when referring to the Prophet Muhammed.

freethinkingthuthseeker;1280497 wrote:

What can be interesting without truth and true spirituality? The rest is mere distraction.




To which part of my post does this refer?

freethinkingthuthseeker;1280497 wrote:

What is your opinion of the quran and what language - if that is important did you read it in?




I read it in English, making allowances for the quality of the translation. In my opinion it is their Holy Scripture and should be respected as such.



freethinkingthuthseeker;1280497 wrote:

If you give equal merit to the qoran as to the Bible, what new WISDOM - as opposed to " scientific" ideas ( the stock response from muslims when asked the Wisdom question) - can we find in the quran? Believe me I looked!




Where do I say I give equal merit to the Qu'ran? I believe it has merit but the beliefs I embodies are not my beliefs.

As to wisdom, that is something I aspire to rather than claim to have. What I gained from reading the Qu'ran was an insight into Muslim culture and belief and an appreciation of how many points of similarity there are with Christianity.

freethinkingthuthseeker;1280497 wrote:

Why is the quran in your opinion so incredibly repetitive?




I would not begin to claim to know why it was written in the way it was.

freethinkingthuthseeker;1280497 wrote:

With respect and sincerity

k


:-6

[freethinkingthuthseeker]

Bryn Mawr;1280675 wrote: That you could not refer to the Prophet Muhammed without making it into "thier so called Phrophet Mohammed,". How would you react to a Muslim referring to Jesus in that way?

That book is a Big direspect to our Lord Jesus as it repetedly calls him Son of Mary. If you know the Bible Jeus himself never once refeerred to her as Mother rather as Woman.

Thta book also denies the reason Jeus came to earth as a man and voluntarily as a lamb as prophecised in many places in the old testament, psalms, proverbs, Isiah etc to willingly submit as a sign of Gods incredible love for us to cleanse by his blood our sins!!!



Peace Be Upon Him - it is considered to be respectful usage when referring to the Prophet Muhammed.

So what did he actually prophecise?



To which part of my post does this refer?



I read it in English, making allowances for the quality of the translation. In my opinion it is their Holy Scripture and should be respected as such.

I read it in English too and was mighty disapointed in it it is beligerant confuses quotes fron the Bible with Jewish reangade stories, thinks the earth is held down by mountains,

is unbel;iebabler short for 23 years of so called revelation and incredibly repetieve, it was writtren 100 years after mohammed's death and the earliest manuscript is 100 years after





Where do I say I give equal merit to the Qu'ran? I believe it has merit but the beliefs I embodies are not my beliefs.#

jUST AS WELL AS Muhammad posed as an apostle of God. Yet his life is filled with lustfulness (12 marriages and sex with a child, slaves and concubines), rapes, warfare, conquests, and unmerciful butcheries. The infinitely good, just and all holy God simply cannot tolerate anything in the least unjust or sinful. What Muhammad produced in the Qur'an is simply a book of gibberish consisting of later evil verses abrogating (superseding) earlier peaceful verses. These verses in Arabic poetically "tickle" the ears of Arab listeners. Islam is a caustic blend of paganism and twisted Bible stories. Muhammad, its lone "prophet", who made no prophecies, conceived his religion to satiate his lust for power, sex, and money. He was a terrorist. And if you think these conclusions are shocking, wait until you see the evidence mostly from Islamic historians below. 70% of what is here is from Muslim and ex-Muslim historians - back to the 8th century.

The Sirat Rasul Allah was written by Ibn Ishaq in 750 A.D. He died in 773 A.D. It was edited and abridged by Abd al-Malik ibn Hisham in 828 A.D. and translated by Alfred Guillaume under the title, The Life of Muhammad in 1955 by Oxford Press. Abd al-Malik ibn Hisham's "Life of Muhammad" relied on the earlier works. Ulmar al-Waqidi of Medina, who died in 825 A.D. produced a work, which portions of which have survived, called "The Expeditions of Muhammad". The History of al-Tabari was written by Abu Muhammad bin al-Tabari between 870 and 920 A.D. His monumental work was translated and published in 1987 through 1997 by the State University of New York Press. Make sure you study I, II, VI, VII, VIII, and IX. Al-Bukhari's Hadith, titled: Sahih Al-Bukhari and The True Traditions which was collected by Imam Bukhari in 850 A.D. Be sure to use the collector's original nomenclature because the only printed English translation (Publisher-Maktaba Dar-us-Salam, Translator-Muhammad Khan) was abridged and erroneously numbered. Finally, I recommend that you acquire at least three of the following Qur'an translations: Ahmed Ali, Pikthal, Noble by Muhsin Khan, Yusuf Ali, or Shakir. The oldest Qur'an fragments date to around 725 A.D. - a century after they were first recited.



As to wisdom, that is something I aspire to rather than claim to have. What I gained from reading the Qu'ran was an insight into Muslim culture and belief and an appreciation of how many points of similarity there are with Christianity.

oH YES? cONSIDER THIS Islam can deceive you. It can fool the very elect. It rejects the salvation Jesus has made possible. Islam spreads the lie that Jesus never even died on a cross. That alone makes it demonic. This document also exists as a reference document to get out the truth which Muslims are never allowed to see. Of all the holy books in the world, Satan has taken pains to ensure that Muhammad and his Qur'an defiantly stand in diametrical opposition to Jesus, the Son of God, the true Prince of Peace - and his New Testament.

The immortal souls of billions of individuals are involved here. To good Muslims I say; "I have sympathy with your having to grow up in a closed society -- where not embracing Islam would have gotten you shunned or even killed". According to many interpretations of the Qur'an (aka: Koran), conversion to a faith other than Islam is punishable by death. Like Satan's slavery, Islam maintains a choke hold on its followers. This sorrowful situation most Muslims are born into should arouse compassion and not scorn, from the followers of the Christ.

Jesus never said a true prophet would appear in the last days. Rather, He said false prophets would arise who would deceive, if possible, the very elect.



I would not begin to claim to know why it was written in the way it was.

i WOULD

The god of Muslims is revealed as a tyrant who demands Muslims and all others submit to him. Whereas in the New Testament, Jesus revealed to Christians a God who is a loving Father, who wants us to come to Him via free will. In the Old Testament (Exodus 34:6) the real God revealed Himself as "merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth". He is the Creator of the Universe, the God of Love, and Lord of Life. The God of Israel is this true God. He insists "Thou shall not kill the innocent and just".

When a Muslim declares that Islam is a religion of peace, he/she is either ignorant of the Koran (Qur'an), or is deceitfully thinking of this "peace", as it extends only to those within the Muslim Community. The deceit is that they will not tell you exactly what they mean. According to the Qur'an: "Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah. Those who follow him are merciful to one another, but ruthless to unbelievers" Surah 48:29. "Kill the Mushrikun (unbelievers) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush..." Surah 9:5. Also see Surah 9:29: PICKTHAL: "Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture (Christians & Jews) as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.". Please note that there is not a single verse in the entire Christian Bible that contains this "open-ended", universal command to kill/or be ruthless to unbelievers.

Surah 47:4 says:



Fa'idhā Laqītumu Al-Ladhīna Kafarū Fađarba Ar-Riqābi Ĥattaá 'Idhā 'Athkhantumūhum Fashuddū Al-Wathāqa Fa'immā Mannāan Ba`du Wa 'Immā Fidā'an Ĥattaá Tađa`a Al-Ĥarbu 'Awzārahā Dhālika Wa Law Yashā'u Allāhu Lāntaşara Minhum Wa Lakin Liyabluwa Ba`đakum Biba`đin Wa Al-Ladhīna Qutilū Fī Sabīli Allāhi Falan Yuđilla 'A`mālahum

which means

Therefore, WHEN YOU MEET THE UNBELIEVERS, SMITE AT THEIR NECKS; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

Many Quran translators have tried to soften the meaning in their translation by adding the words “in war” in brackets after the word “Unbelievers” but they are NOT there in the original Arabic text.

Allah - the Pagan god:

Islam, teaches that Jews and Christians both have earned the wrath of Allah by failing to follow Islam, and that they have also lost the way by following the teachings of the Torah for the Jews, or the Bible for Christians. Additionally, This god Allah (with a little g) lies about Jesus. Islam says that Jesus not only is not the Son of God, but that He did not even die on a cross in Jerusalem... Allah is therefore proven to be a false pagan god... Jews also do not believe this about Jesus (Yeshua). Who will believe it? The greatest of kings. Born in the humblest of places.... God, born in the flesh! The Apostle Paul tells us that Jews have been supernaturally blinded to this by God. Yet Christians and Jews worship the same God (Yahweh) and share the same Bible. Learn more. See movies "The Nativity Story" and "Jesus", here.

About 578 years before Islam came along, Christians were warned against Islam by both Jesus and the Apostle Paul. Jesus warned us about the many false prophets who would follow Him (Matthew 16:11-12) . Paul warned us when he wrote:

“But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a Gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to hell!” (Galatians 1:8).

Since Islam’s message differs fundamentally from the Gospel, it is clear what Paul taught regarding the fate of Muhammad and those who propagate Islam. Islam bypasses the sacrificial mediating work Jesus did for believers on the cross, thus negating the forgiveness of sins. This condemns non-believers to die in their sins. Jesus said; "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." John 8:24

Jesus also predicted the current dilemma of Muslim intolerance and fanaticism. He warned that the day was likewise coming when religious zealots will kill Christians and think they are offering a service to God (John 16:2-4).

Dear Christians and Muslims. Jesus is committed to winning the spiritual Holy War. He wants nobody to suffer an eternity without God, confined to a godless place. Know this, that God Himself is calling out those Muslims with good hearts! Jesus (Isa) Himself is appearing to many. A few years ago, Al-Jazeera reported that roughly six million Muslims are leaving Islam and becoming followers of Jesus every year in Africa. In 2005, roughly 250,000 Muslims converted to Christianity in Iran. Between 2003-2005, roughly 1 million Muslims converted to Christianity in Arab countries. Muslims are coming to Christ in North America, too, although not to the same extent as in Muslim countries. Tens of millions are embracing Jesus every few years in India and in China. Chinese missionaries are now gearing up to bring the Gospel of Jesus to dark Muslim places.





:-6
The Qur'an cannot be trusted because it contains numerous "divinely inspired" contradictions. If God has a history of abrogating (changing) his own revelations as is done in the Qur'an, then how can we be certain he will not abrogate it again in the future? If Allah can abrogate his eternal speech, how can you trust him with your eternal soul?

Comparing the Bible with the Qur'an "has likewise brought the firm realization that the contrast is stark and astounding. The superiority of the Bible is so transparently evident that one is flabbergasted and dumbfounded that so many human beings have embraced Islam in the last 1,400 years". .. "The Quran lacks this heavenly manifestation of inspiration".

To the Muslim, Jesus Christ is merely one of the many prophets of Allah (Sura: 4:171; 5:74). According to Islam, the prophet Muhammad supersedes Jesus Christ. Islam says Jesus Christ is not the Son of God or part of any Trinity (Surah 5:17; 5:116; 19:35). We are told by Islam that Jesus was the Messiah (Surah 3:45; 4:157; 171), but nothing but a slave on whom God showed favor (Surah 43:59); yet elsewhere in the Qur'an we are told the Messiah is not a slave (Surah 4:172). The Qur'an tells us that Jesus Christ did not atone for anyone's sins, although he was himself sinless (Surah 3:46) and is one of those who are near to God (Surah 3:45). Positively, the Qur'an says that Jesus Christ performed miracles (Surah 3:49; 5:110) and was the Messiah. The Qur'an says Jesus did not die on a cross. Various Muslim traditions say that Jesus either miraculously substituted Judas Iscariot for himself on the cross, or that God miraculously delivered Him from the hands of the Romans and Jews before He could be crucified. Most Muslims believe that Jesus Christ was taken bodily into heaven without having died (Surah 4:157). However, Surah 19:33 says Jesus died and would be resurrected. Muhammad on the other hand died in his wife Aisha's home, not long after he was poisoned by a slave girl. Muhammad's body was lowered into a hole in Medina, and his dead body was covered by dirt and brickwork.

It is interesting to compare Jesus and Muhammad according to the Qur'an. Jesus did miracles (Surah 3:49; 5:110), but Muhammad did not (Surah 13:8: "thou art a warner [of coming divine judgment] only"; also 6:37; 6:109; 17:59 and 17:90-93).

Jesus was sinless (Surah 3:46), but Muhammad sinned and needed forgiveness (Surah 40:55: "Ask forgiveness of thy sin"; 42:5: "Ask forgiveness for those on the Earth"; 47:19: "Ask forgiveness for thy sin" ; 48:2: "that Allah may forgive thee of thy sin").

Jesus was called "the Messiah" by Allah in the Qur'an. And Jesus was even born of a virgin (Surah 3:45-57)! Yet Muhammad who had 12 wives, 2 concubines, and participated in many attacks on innocent caravans and villages, and insisted on 20% of all the booty from these raids -- is supposed to be the greatest of the prophets.

Both Muslim holy books (Qur'an/Koran and Hadith) contain commands for Muslims to subjugate the world, militarily. Muhammad commanded Muslims to spread Islam through Offensive Jihad; or conquest of non-Muslim lands

Enough said?

Probably not for you Bryn

Bless you

[Bryn Mawr]

freethinkingthuthseeker;1321895 wrote: The Qur'an cannot be trusted because it contains numerous "divinely inspired" contradictions. If God has a history of abrogating (changing) his own revelations as is done in the Qur'an, then how can we be certain he will not abrogate it again in the future? If Allah can abrogate his eternal speech, how can you trust him with your eternal soul?


The Bible, also supposidly divinely inspired and inerrant, contains even more contradictions - is it therefore not to be trusted too?

freethinkingthuthseeker;1321895 wrote: Comparing the Bible with the Qur'an "has likewise brought the firm realization that the contrast is stark and astounding. The superiority of the Bible is so transparently evident that one is flabbergasted and dumbfounded that so many human beings have embraced Islam in the last 1,400 years". .. "The Quran lacks this heavenly manifestation of inspiration".


Could you provide a source for your quote? Make it so much easier to understand the context of what you are trying to say.

freethinkingthuthseeker;1321895 wrote: To the Muslim, Jesus Christ is merely one of the many prophets of Allah (Sura: 4:171; 5:74). According to Islam, the prophet Muhammad supersedes Jesus Christ. Islam says Jesus Christ is not the Son of God or part of any Trinity (Surah 5:17; 5:116; 19:35). We are told by Islam that Jesus was the Messiah (Surah 3:45; 4:157; 171), but nothing but a slave on whom God showed favor (Surah 43:59); yet elsewhere in the Qur'an we are told the Messiah is not a slave (Surah 4:172). The Qur'an tells us that Jesus Christ did not atone for anyone's sins, although he was himself sinless (Surah 3:46) and is one of those who are near to God (Surah 3:45). Positively, the Qur'an says that Jesus Christ performed miracles (Surah 3:49; 5:110) and was the Messiah. The Qur'an says Jesus did not die on a cross. Various Muslim traditions say that Jesus either miraculously substituted Judas Iscariot for himself on the cross, or that God miraculously delivered Him from the hands of the Romans and Jews before He could be crucified. Most Muslims believe that Jesus Christ was taken bodily into heaven without having died (Surah 4:157). However, Surah 19:33 says Jesus died and would be resurrected. Muhammad on the other hand died in his wife Aisha's home, not long after he was poisoned by a slave girl. Muhammad's body was lowered into a hole in Medina, and his dead body was covered by dirt and brickwork.


And?

Different religions are different - that, in itself, does not prove one of them to be wrong. Before you can prove that Islam is wrong for disagreeing with Christianity you have to prove that Christianity is right.

You claim to be non-religious ("I am not catholic indeed not religious at all") but every word you type contradicts this.

freethinkingthuthseeker;1321895 wrote: It is interesting to compare Jesus and Muhammad according to the Qur'an. Jesus did miracles (Surah 3:49; 5:110), but Muhammad did not (Surah 13:8: "thou art a warner [of coming divine judgment] only"; also 6:37; 6:109; 17:59 and 17:90-93).

Jesus was sinless (Surah 3:46), but Muhammad sinned and needed forgiveness (Surah 40:55: "Ask forgiveness of thy sin"; 42:5: "Ask forgiveness for those on the Earth"; 47:19: "Ask forgiveness for thy sin" ; 48:2: "that Allah may forgive thee of thy sin").

Jesus was called "the Messiah" by Allah in the Qur'an. And Jesus was even born of a virgin (Surah 3:45-57)! Yet Muhammad who had 12 wives, 2 concubines, and participated in many attacks on innocent caravans and villages, and insisted on 20% of all the booty from these raids -- is supposed to be the greatest of the prophets.

Both Muslim holy books (Qur'an/Koran and Hadith) contain commands for Muslims to subjugate the world, militarily. Muhammad commanded Muslims to spread Islam through Offensive Jihad; or conquest of non-Muslim lands

Enough said?

Probably not for you Bryn

Bless you


Again, what are you trying to say here?

[xyz]

Abram Is Muslim;1215013 wrote: I wish discussing here with a practise Jew and practise Christiant,about the main common points between us , like God , laws, and the eternal life.
Jews usually say that one is accounted righteous before God by obeying the Torah, the law of Moses- though there cannot be any assurance that one has done that, especially as many of those commandments cannot now be kept, as Jews admit. Jews claim physical descent from Abraham, though, since the total destruction of ancient Israel in the 2nd century, it is doubtful that anyone can prove that descent in the way that was strictly required at the restoration of Israel after the Babylonian exile.

Islam says that one is accounted righteous before Allah by observing the Five Pillars of Islam: declaring that Allah is one, and that Muhammad is his prophet; fasting; praying; works of charity, and pilgrimage. Again, there is no assurance that one has succeeded at one's death. Islam has no demonstrable connexion with Abraham. There is no genuine evidence that anyone today has descended from Ishmael, and even if there was, it would not necessarily make for a creditable claim.

Christianity says that one is accounted righteous before God by faith in the atonement of the Christ on the cross, and that good works done in gratitude for his sacrifice are the evidence of faith. So the Christian does good works because he/she is justified, not in order to be justified. According to the Bible, Abraham was justified by faith, and was promised descendants, and Christians see themselves as those descendants.

Abraham was justified not by Mosaic Law, nor by Muhammad's Pillars, neither of which existed when he lived, so it is only Christianity that has a genuine spiritual connexion with Abraham. Two religions say that salvation must be earned; the other says that it can never be earned, and commitment of one's whole life to Christ is necessary, in its every secret motive. Christianity is therefore more demanding than the other two religions, or indeed any other religion. It leads to persecution and separation from the worldly, and this makes it a rare faith in practice today, with vast numbers of nominal Christians in existence, who actually share the view that justification is by works, not faith. Despite their physical rigors, that are only outward, Judaism and Islam are actually less personally demanding than Christianity.

[Shimon]

two questions for Abram Is Muslim :

1. Do you think like Most people in the west ,that it is the right of everyone to worship as they please?

2. Do you think the state of Israel has a right to exist?

[Bryn Mawr]

Shimon;1323287 wrote: two questions for Abram Is Muslim :

1. Do you think like Most people in the west ,that it is the right of everyone to worship as they please?

2. Do you think the state of Israel has a right to exist?


I fear it's nearly a year since Abram last visited the Garden