I have thought long and hard about this one.On the one hand I think, if we are a country with ideals that promote religious freedom etc. etc, etc. then how can we possibly object. On the other hand, I ask my self-----why there? Why build a mosque on such an expensive piece of real estate. I can's see frugal Methodists doing it.
Whatcha think about this Gardener's?
The Mosque in Manhatten
The Mosque in Manhatten
I also thought long & hard on this one too. My first reaction was absolutely not. Then I began to try to think about it as Obama does, trying to show the Muslims, expecially the "radical extremists", that maybe the infidels are not so bad after all. Then I start to think, is that really being too naive? Will extremists ever change?
Cars 
The Mosque in Manhatten
I can't say I care enough about it, really.
It is two blocks from the WTC site. There is a Catholic church a block away. So, the precedent has been set for the area.
I tend to lean in the opposite direction of the emotional alarmists, on any matter. Kind of like leaning the opposite direction than your canoe-mate in hopes of avoiding a tip-over.
I am bothered by the detractors' insistence that Muslims, by nature, seem to be terrorists.
Given the history from the other perspective, it would not be any more difficult to claim that Christians, or Jews, are all terrorists. Look at Ireland a few decades back.
A lot of people forget that among the dead at WTC were also Muslims and Jews, and Hindus, and even a few Sikhs.
A couple of things I found that I think sum up my view:
Obama’s sage decision to back Manhattan mosque - The Boston Globe
On the downtown Manhattan mosque
As for The Prez, I can already see the right-wing whackos making hay from this about his being a closet Muslim.
BTW. The last three weeks in China have given me a new perspective towards the First Amendment.
It is two blocks from the WTC site. There is a Catholic church a block away. So, the precedent has been set for the area.
I tend to lean in the opposite direction of the emotional alarmists, on any matter. Kind of like leaning the opposite direction than your canoe-mate in hopes of avoiding a tip-over.
I am bothered by the detractors' insistence that Muslims, by nature, seem to be terrorists.
Given the history from the other perspective, it would not be any more difficult to claim that Christians, or Jews, are all terrorists. Look at Ireland a few decades back.
A lot of people forget that among the dead at WTC were also Muslims and Jews, and Hindus, and even a few Sikhs.
A couple of things I found that I think sum up my view:
Obama’s sage decision to back Manhattan mosque - The Boston Globe
On the downtown Manhattan mosque
As for The Prez, I can already see the right-wing whackos making hay from this about his being a closet Muslim.
BTW. The last three weeks in China have given me a new perspective towards the First Amendment.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
The Mosque in Manhatten
As I said before, put ALL church properties on the tax rolls, then see how many want to build mega mosques and huge gaudy church buildings on prime real estate.
The Mosque in Manhatten
M.A.S;1327396 wrote: what's the problem of building a mosque in Manhatten?
The problem isn't just that it's Manahatten. It's that it is in the shadows of the Twin Towers. I agree with Obama that Islam and Al Quaida are two seperate entities but I cant help feeling that the very act of proposing that a Mosque be built so close to ground Zero is deliberately controversial. Why would the muslim community think that it was appropriate to build one there of all places. It shows, at worse, disrespect and at least apathy for the attrocity of 9/11. Those towers should be rebuilt higher than ever with a giant hand on top showing the finger
The problem isn't just that it's Manahatten. It's that it is in the shadows of the Twin Towers. I agree with Obama that Islam and Al Quaida are two seperate entities but I cant help feeling that the very act of proposing that a Mosque be built so close to ground Zero is deliberately controversial. Why would the muslim community think that it was appropriate to build one there of all places. It shows, at worse, disrespect and at least apathy for the attrocity of 9/11. Those towers should be rebuilt higher than ever with a giant hand on top showing the finger
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
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chonsigirl
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The Mosque in Manhatten
Snowfire;1327397 wrote: The problem isn't just that it's Manahatten. It's that it is in the shadows of the Twin Towers. I agree with Obama that Islam and Al Quaida are two seperate entities but I cant help feeling that the very act of proposing that a Mosque be built so close to ground Zero is deliberately controversial. Why would the muslim community think that it was appropriate to build one there of all places. It shows, at worse, disrespect and at least apathy for the attrocity of 9/11. Those towers should be rebuilt higher than ever with a giant hand on top showing the finger
Oh my, that last line made me laugh this morning.
I think it is tacky, good word for their choice of location. They may of course build under 1st ammendment rights, but they know ahead of time it will antagonize many. Not a good thing for a peaceful religion to do.
Oh my, that last line made me laugh this morning.
I think it is tacky, good word for their choice of location. They may of course build under 1st ammendment rights, but they know ahead of time it will antagonize many. Not a good thing for a peaceful religion to do.
The Mosque in Manhatten
Snowfire;1327397 wrote: The problem isn't just that it's Manahatten. It's that it is in the shadows of the Twin Towers. I agree with Obama that Islam and Al Quaida are two seperate entities but I cant help feeling that the very act of proposing that a Mosque be built so close to ground Zero is deliberately controversial. Why would the muslim community think that it was appropriate to build one there of all places. It shows, at worse, disrespect and at least apathy for the attrocity of 9/11. Those towers should be rebuilt higher than ever with a giant hand on top showing the finger
I completely understand the anger that American people feel when they remember 9-11 and I don't blame you that you resist building a mosque in a sensitive area such that.. and I'm sad for those who lost their family, friends or love..
why doesn't Obama "President of U.S.A" understand that you're angry about building this mosque ??!!
do you think that Obama is using Muslims as a tool to create racism between religions??
I just don't know what they are thinking about..:-3
anyway, I believe that this mosque will be built, the point is why don't you wait and see how peaceful we are? also, the people that destroyed the two buildings are not Muslims and they aren't representing Islam.. they're bunch of losers that look for racism and damaging people.. so being close is not problem because we're not terrorists..
I completely understand the anger that American people feel when they remember 9-11 and I don't blame you that you resist building a mosque in a sensitive area such that.. and I'm sad for those who lost their family, friends or love..
why doesn't Obama "President of U.S.A" understand that you're angry about building this mosque ??!!
do you think that Obama is using Muslims as a tool to create racism between religions??
I just don't know what they are thinking about..:-3
anyway, I believe that this mosque will be built, the point is why don't you wait and see how peaceful we are? also, the people that destroyed the two buildings are not Muslims and they aren't representing Islam.. they're bunch of losers that look for racism and damaging people.. so being close is not problem because we're not terrorists..
I miss you Odie
The Mosque in Manhatten
M.A.S;1327407 wrote: I completely understand the anger that American people feel when they remember 9-11 and I don't blame you that you resist building a mosque in a sensitive area such that.. and I'm sad for those who lost their family, friends or love..
why doesn't Obama "President of U.S.A" understand that you're angry about building this mosque ??!!
do you think that Obama is using Muslims as a tool to create racism between religions??
I just don't know what they are thinking about..:-3
anyway, I believe that this mosque will be built, the point is why don't you wait and see how peaceful we are? also, the people that destroyed the two buildings are not Muslims and they aren't representing Islam.. they're bunch of losers that look for racism and damaging people.. so being close is not problem because we're not terrorists..
MAS, I completely understand the difference between true Muslims and those, like Al Qiaida, who use the Qu'ran to justify their bigotry and violence. I just think it is sad that the Muslim community should choose that spot - a stones throw from Ground Zero - to build a mosque. It doesnt need to be there above anywhere else. I think it is overwhelmingly insensitive and deliberately provocative
why doesn't Obama "President of U.S.A" understand that you're angry about building this mosque ??!!
do you think that Obama is using Muslims as a tool to create racism between religions??
I just don't know what they are thinking about..:-3
anyway, I believe that this mosque will be built, the point is why don't you wait and see how peaceful we are? also, the people that destroyed the two buildings are not Muslims and they aren't representing Islam.. they're bunch of losers that look for racism and damaging people.. so being close is not problem because we're not terrorists..
MAS, I completely understand the difference between true Muslims and those, like Al Qiaida, who use the Qu'ran to justify their bigotry and violence. I just think it is sad that the Muslim community should choose that spot - a stones throw from Ground Zero - to build a mosque. It doesnt need to be there above anywhere else. I think it is overwhelmingly insensitive and deliberately provocative
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
The Mosque in Manhatten
M.A.S;1327407 wrote:
anyway, I believe that this mosque will be built, the point is why don't you wait and see how peaceful we are? also, the people that destroyed the two buildings are not Muslims and they aren't representing Islam.. they're bunch of losers that look for racism and damaging people.. so being close is not problem because we're not terrorists..
And there is the answer to the question.
The ones that are sensitive to the idea of an Islamic place of worship near "sacred ground" appear to me to be lumping the entire Muslim faith in with extreme and prejudice fanatics. Two entirely separate entities.
If we disallow this then everything we purportedly stand for has been a lie.
Where does that leave us?
anyway, I believe that this mosque will be built, the point is why don't you wait and see how peaceful we are? also, the people that destroyed the two buildings are not Muslims and they aren't representing Islam.. they're bunch of losers that look for racism and damaging people.. so being close is not problem because we're not terrorists..
And there is the answer to the question.
The ones that are sensitive to the idea of an Islamic place of worship near "sacred ground" appear to me to be lumping the entire Muslim faith in with extreme and prejudice fanatics. Two entirely separate entities.
If we disallow this then everything we purportedly stand for has been a lie.
Where does that leave us?
I AM AWESOME MAN
The Mosque in Manhatten
Ponder this------------------If the Towers would have been destroyed by a group that just happened to have their religious roots in a off beat "Southern Baptist" faith, would we now make a fuss if the Southern Baptists wanted to build a church near Towers remains. Don't tell me that those of the Southern Baptist faith would never do such a thing, violence in the past by some member of that faith is a historical fact. The church it's self of course does not condone violent actions but some members will interpret the faith to suit their actions.
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Oscar Namechange
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The Mosque in Manhatten
Lon;1327384 wrote: I have thought long and hard about this one.On the one hand I think, if we are a country with ideals that promote religious freedom etc. etc, etc. then how can we possibly object. On the other hand, I ask my self-----why there? Why build a mosque on such an expensive piece of real estate. I can's see frugal Methodists doing it.
Whatcha think about this Gardener's?
I am totally against it although not American.
On one hand It can be argued that It Is Obama's offering of tolerance and the hand of friendship.
I object due to the Twin Towers being a global symbol of America Instantly recongnisable through all nations, religions and creeds. There-fore what replaces the Twin Towers In my mind should be another symbol of America maybe along the lines of the Statue of Liberty.
To build a Mosque Is an Insult to the American people and that of which Obama pledged to serve.
Whilst Global Immigration Is a fact of life and It is commendable to Include places of worship for the changing population, the Mosque could easily have been placed else-where.
9/11 was an attack on the American people and the American people should be reflected In this very much sacred site. To Ignore the American people and pander to Immigration In such a site, is crass and stupid.
Whatcha think about this Gardener's?
I am totally against it although not American.
On one hand It can be argued that It Is Obama's offering of tolerance and the hand of friendship.
I object due to the Twin Towers being a global symbol of America Instantly recongnisable through all nations, religions and creeds. There-fore what replaces the Twin Towers In my mind should be another symbol of America maybe along the lines of the Statue of Liberty.
To build a Mosque Is an Insult to the American people and that of which Obama pledged to serve.
Whilst Global Immigration Is a fact of life and It is commendable to Include places of worship for the changing population, the Mosque could easily have been placed else-where.
9/11 was an attack on the American people and the American people should be reflected In this very much sacred site. To Ignore the American people and pander to Immigration In such a site, is crass and stupid.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Kathy Ellen
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The Mosque in Manhatten
Thank you Snowfire, Nomad and Oscar. I agree with you 100%. Your very kind words have touched my heart. September 11th was indeed a sad day for many people.
The Mosque in Manhatten
Building there would be an affirmation of what america is about, IMO.
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
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Oscar Namechange
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The Mosque in Manhatten
flopstock;1327466 wrote: Building there would be an affirmation of what america is about, IMO.
If you are refering to tolerance, do you think building a Reichstag In the centre of Tel Aviv would be accepted by the Israeli Nation? Of Couse It would not and would be seen as an International out-rage.
If you are refering to tolerance, do you think building a Reichstag In the centre of Tel Aviv would be accepted by the Israeli Nation? Of Couse It would not and would be seen as an International out-rage.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Mosque in Manhatten
oscar;1327468 wrote: If you are refering to tolerance, do you think building a Reichstag In the centre of Tel Aviv would be accepted by the Israeli Nation? Of Couse It would not and would be seen as an International out-rage.
Has nothing to do with tolerance, Oscar. I don't have to tolerate anything. This is American. They don't need my tolerance or grace. The whole idea is that folks are allowed to be different then me so long as they obey the laws.
If we ran things based on what I tolerate, there would be no Moral Majority, Catholic Church, Chicago White Sox or Green Bay Packers!
Has nothing to do with tolerance, Oscar. I don't have to tolerate anything. This is American. They don't need my tolerance or grace. The whole idea is that folks are allowed to be different then me so long as they obey the laws.
If we ran things based on what I tolerate, there would be no Moral Majority, Catholic Church, Chicago White Sox or Green Bay Packers!
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
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Oscar Namechange
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The Mosque in Manhatten
flopstock;1327471 wrote: Has nothing to do with tolerance, Oscar. I don't have to tolerate anything. This is American. They don't need my tolerance or grace. The whole idea is that folks are allowed to be different then me so long as they obey the laws.
If we ran things based on what I tolerate, there would be no Moral Majority, Catholic Church, Chicago White Sox or Green Bay Packers!
Yeah.. those Green Bay Packers sure are pants.
If we ran things based on what I tolerate, there would be no Moral Majority, Catholic Church, Chicago White Sox or Green Bay Packers!
Yeah.. those Green Bay Packers sure are pants.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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along-for-the-ride
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The Mosque in Manhatten
oscar;1327468 wrote: If you are refering to tolerance, do you think building a Reichstag In the centre of Tel Aviv would be accepted by the Israeli Nation? Of Couse It would not and would be seen as an International out-rage.
A Reichtag and a Mosque are two buildings which serve two different purposes. One is of faith and one is of politics.
A Reichtag and a Mosque are two buildings which serve two different purposes. One is of faith and one is of politics.
Life is a Highway. Let's share the Commute.
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Oscar Namechange
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The Mosque in Manhatten
along-for-the-ride;1327521 wrote: A Reichtag and a Mosque are two buildings which serve two different purposes. One is of faith and one is of politics.
Ok... another example. What about a Buddist Temple In Tiananmen Square ?
Ok... another example. What about a Buddist Temple In Tiananmen Square ?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Mosque in Manhatten
Will non moslems be able to go in? women given equal access how about non moslem in a country where anyone can wander in to any church. If you build it next thing you know some clown will fire-bomb the mosque as an offence to the one true god and if the godless are inside too bad.
Why not just have a non denominational centre that all faiths can use to pay their respects? America is a secular state and 911 was a very good demonstration as to why it should stay that way. Instead of remembering the dead who were all,faiths and colours there is now a childish spat over which religion has the right to be represented.
Why not just have a non denominational centre that all faiths can use to pay their respects? America is a secular state and 911 was a very good demonstration as to why it should stay that way. Instead of remembering the dead who were all,faiths and colours there is now a childish spat over which religion has the right to be represented.
The Mosque in Manhatten
"Ok... another example. What about a Buddist Temple In Tiananmen Square ? "
That's political again......not sure of your thinking here.
The PRC tolerates 5 religions....Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Protestantism, and Catholicism which are all tightly controlled and monitored. Their constitution forbids religious practices that cause "disruption" or "harm" to society
'The Mosque in Manhattan' issue is very difficult.......you're damned if you do allow it and damned if you don't allow it. Ipersonally couldn't make that decision.
"The preaching of (the original) Lord Buddha revolved around attaining salvation from worldly sufferings, universal brotherhood, peace and non-violence"
That's political again......not sure of your thinking here.
The PRC tolerates 5 religions....Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Protestantism, and Catholicism which are all tightly controlled and monitored. Their constitution forbids religious practices that cause "disruption" or "harm" to society
'The Mosque in Manhattan' issue is very difficult.......you're damned if you do allow it and damned if you don't allow it. Ipersonally couldn't make that decision.
"The preaching of (the original) Lord Buddha revolved around attaining salvation from worldly sufferings, universal brotherhood, peace and non-violence"
A smile is a window on your face to show your heart is home
The Mosque in Manhatten
gmc;1327556 wrote: Will non moslems be able to go in? women given equal access how about non moslem in a country where anyone can wander in to any church. If you build it next thing you know some clown will fire-bomb the mosque as an offence to the one true god and if the godless are inside too bad.
Why not just have a non denominational centre that all faiths can use to pay their respects? America is a secular state and 911 was a very good demonstration as to why it should stay that way. Instead of remembering the dead who were all,faiths and colours there is now a childish spat over which religion has the right to be represented.
An interesting idea and one I would support
Why not just have a non denominational centre that all faiths can use to pay their respects? America is a secular state and 911 was a very good demonstration as to why it should stay that way. Instead of remembering the dead who were all,faiths and colours there is now a childish spat over which religion has the right to be represented.
An interesting idea and one I would support
A smile is a window on your face to show your heart is home