In 1Corinth. 3:15;" If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, through that fire."
Here Salvation is given inspite of the burning fire that destroys human efforts to live their lives. And this so called hell fire could be no different, it cannot stop Salvation.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
I wanted to show a few biblical supports of the Salvation of all, now I want to go into the ugly approach of those against the salvation of all.
Peace.
Peace.
-
freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel;1328642 wrote: I wanted to show a few biblical supports of the Salvation of all, now I want to go into the ugly approach of those against the salvation of all.
Peace.
As you wish Mickiel, I humbly submit the following direct sciptural verses from the Great Book on not just being saved but being reborn too including direct quotes from Jesus Christ our lord towards the end:
Isaiah 45:16-18 (All New International Version)
16 All the makers of idols will be put to shame and disgraced;
they will go off into disgrace together.
17 But Israel will be saved by the LORD
with an everlasting salvation;
you will never be put to shame or disgraced,
to ages everlasting.
Ezekiel 14:17-19
17 "Or if I bring a sword against that country and say, 'Let the sword pass throughout the land,' and I kill its men and their animals, 18 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved.
Joel 2:32
And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
Matthew 10:22
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Luke 13:22- 30
The Narrow Door
22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'
28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."
Acts 2:46-47
46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favour of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Acts 4:12
12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
Acts 16:29-31
29The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."
Romans 9:26-28
26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "
27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality."
Romans 10:8-10
8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
1 Corinthians 1:17-19
17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate
1 Corinthians 15:2
2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
2 Corinthians 2:14-16
14But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him. 15For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. 16To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life. And who is equal to such a task?
Philippians 1:27-29
27Whatever happens; conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel 28without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God. 29For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,
2 Thessalonians 2:10
10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2:12-14
12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Stand Firm
13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 2:3-5
3This is good, and pleases God our Saviour, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
2 Timothy 1:8-10
8So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Saviour, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
1 Peter 4:17-19
17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"
19So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.
Hebrews 10:38-39
38But my righteous one[a] will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him." 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.
Being Saved, Reborn and transformation by the Holy Spirit
Matthew 3:10-12
10The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
11"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 12His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
Matthew 12:31-33
31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men ( of those who are saved), but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
33"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
Isaiah 63:9-11
9 In all their distress he too was distressed, and the angel of his presence saved them.
In his love and mercy he redeemed them;
he lifted them up and carried them
all the days of old. 10 Yet they rebelled
and grieved his Holy Spirit.
So he turned and became their enemy
and he himself fought against them.
John 3:3
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. Or born from above
John 3:6-8
6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
1 Peter 1:22-24
22Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24For,
"All men are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
Titus 3:4-6
4But when the kindness and love of God our Saviour appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Saviour,
I think these quotes make quite an emphatic demonstration that not ALL will be saved. Do you agree?
Bless you
Peace.
As you wish Mickiel, I humbly submit the following direct sciptural verses from the Great Book on not just being saved but being reborn too including direct quotes from Jesus Christ our lord towards the end:
Isaiah 45:16-18 (All New International Version)
16 All the makers of idols will be put to shame and disgraced;
they will go off into disgrace together.
17 But Israel will be saved by the LORD
with an everlasting salvation;
you will never be put to shame or disgraced,
to ages everlasting.
Ezekiel 14:17-19
17 "Or if I bring a sword against that country and say, 'Let the sword pass throughout the land,' and I kill its men and their animals, 18 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved.
Joel 2:32
And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
Matthew 10:22
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Luke 13:22- 30
The Narrow Door
22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
26"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
27"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'
28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."
Acts 2:46-47
46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favour of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Acts 4:12
12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
Acts 16:29-31
29The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."
Romans 9:26-28
26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "
27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality."
Romans 10:8-10
8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
1 Corinthians 1:17-19
17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate
1 Corinthians 15:2
2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
2 Corinthians 2:14-16
14But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him. 15For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. 16To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life. And who is equal to such a task?
Philippians 1:27-29
27Whatever happens; conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel 28without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God. 29For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,
2 Thessalonians 2:10
10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2:12-14
12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Stand Firm
13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 2:3-5
3This is good, and pleases God our Saviour, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
2 Timothy 1:8-10
8So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Saviour, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
1 Peter 4:17-19
17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"
19So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.
Hebrews 10:38-39
38But my righteous one[a] will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him." 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.
Being Saved, Reborn and transformation by the Holy Spirit
Matthew 3:10-12
10The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
11"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 12His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
Matthew 12:31-33
31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men ( of those who are saved), but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
33"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
Isaiah 63:9-11
9 In all their distress he too was distressed, and the angel of his presence saved them.
In his love and mercy he redeemed them;
he lifted them up and carried them
all the days of old. 10 Yet they rebelled
and grieved his Holy Spirit.
So he turned and became their enemy
and he himself fought against them.
John 3:3
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. Or born from above
John 3:6-8
6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
1 Peter 1:22-24
22Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24For,
"All men are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
Titus 3:4-6
4But when the kindness and love of God our Saviour appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Saviour,
I think these quotes make quite an emphatic demonstration that not ALL will be saved. Do you agree?
Bless you
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
freethinkingthuthseeker;1329177 wrote:
I think these quotes make quite an emphatic demonstration that not ALL will be saved. Do you agree?
Bless you
Well yes I agree, they do show that, but all those verses I listed show the oppisite. So there are really two lines of thinking in scripture, one shows that many are lost, the other shows that all are saved. So it depends on which verses are more powerful, which thought pattern is really Gods, and I think the Salvation of all " Fits Gods Thought process much more." It fits him, his nature and desire. It fits christ, and much better defines his work and mission.
So its according to what draws your belief more.
The Salvation of all draws my belief more.
Peace.
I think these quotes make quite an emphatic demonstration that not ALL will be saved. Do you agree?
Bless you
Well yes I agree, they do show that, but all those verses I listed show the oppisite. So there are really two lines of thinking in scripture, one shows that many are lost, the other shows that all are saved. So it depends on which verses are more powerful, which thought pattern is really Gods, and I think the Salvation of all " Fits Gods Thought process much more." It fits him, his nature and desire. It fits christ, and much better defines his work and mission.
So its according to what draws your belief more.
The Salvation of all draws my belief more.
Peace.
-
freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel;1329201 wrote: Well yes I agree, they do show that, but all those verses I listed show the oppisite. So there are really two lines of thinking in scripture, one shows that many are lost, the other shows that all are saved. So it depends on which verses are more powerful, which thought pattern is really Gods, and I think the Salvation of all " Fits Gods Thought process much more." It fits him, his nature and desire. It fits christ, and much better defines his work and mission.
So its according to what draws your belief more.
The Salvation of all draws my belief more.
Peace.
Greetings Mickiel again I have looked through your selection of quotes and answered them in the order you posted them, context is so important and I hope you noted that most of mine were in the context of who is being saved and I note you have used a lot of Pauls letters which time and again refer to those with faith but lets look at all of yours now:
Colossians 2:13
Ok who is Paul addressing here in his beautifully intellectual way look to the beginning and we can see:
1I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.
Freedom from Human Regulations through Life with Christ
6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having cancelled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
You see, He was preaching to those who had already accepted Jesus as their Saviour, the context is essential in scripture we don’t just cherry pick
John 4:42 is only the Samaritans stating that they believe and will be saved and being the Saviour of the world is indeed a gift to us all by His Blood but still takes no account of free will and to refer to the world can be the geophysical world as well as a big majority but not necessecerily everyone
Eph.2:8
In this passage you have overlooked one key word: “by Grace you have been saved through Faith and that not of yourselves it is about having faith
John 6:33
Again to the world see the point above
Hebrews 9:26
Again consider the context just before this we read 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
This means having the Holy Spirit within us to guide our consciences to grow and lead blameless lives on earth for those who are called or those who turn to God, this is particularly a message for the Jews who became Christians and are therefore part of the OT references to “Israel which all Christians and true Jewish people of faith are.
Titus 2:11
The actual words here are:
9Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Saviour attractive.
11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. not been recieved by all men!
Luke 3:6
Again, look at the context:
the rough ways smooth.
6And all mankind will see God's salvation.' "
Straight after this we see: 7John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire." enough said?
Isaiah 65
"I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me;
I was found by those who did not seek me.
To a nation that did not call on my name,
I said, 'Here am I, here am I.'
I believe God is talking in the past tense here about the Nation of his people but just look further in that same book 65
All day long I have held out my hands
to an obstinate people,
who walk in ways not good,
pursuing their own imaginations-
3 a people who continually provoke me
to my very face,
offering sacrifices in gardens
and burning incense on altars of brick;
4 who sit among the graves
and spend their nights keeping secret vigil;
who eat the flesh of pigs,
and whose pots hold broth of unclean meat;
5 who say, 'Keep away; don't come near me,
for I am too sacred for you!'
Such people are smoke in my nostrils,
a fire that keeps burning all day.
6 "See, it stands written before me:
I will not keep silent but will pay back in full;
I will pay it back into their laps-
7 both your sins and the sins of your fathers,"
says the LORD.
"Because they burned sacrifices on the mountains
and defied me on the hills,
I will measure into their laps
the full payment for their former deeds."
8 This is what the LORD says:
"As when juice is still found in a cluster of grapes
and men say, 'Don't destroy it,
there is yet some good in it,'
so will I do in behalf of my servants;
I will not destroy them all. the implication being that some will be obviously
Romans 9: 25-26
With respect yet again you have overlooked the context here is a slighter larger part of that passage:
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[j]
27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved. SO WHAT IS THIS?
28For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality."[
2Peter 3:9;
Just step back to 2 Peter 2
False Teachers and Their Destruction
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. putting them into gloomy dungeons [to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; VERY CLEAR INDEED!
7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard) 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
CLEAR AGAIN
And back to chapter 3 in context
3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the Day of Judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare! SO CHAPTER 2 IS THE BACKGROUND TO THAT MESSAGE
1Tim. 2:3-4
I’m really sorry to say Mickiel, again look at the context here for yes it would be beautiful if all mankind is to be saved:
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Saviour, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. IF THEY CONTINUE IN FAITH LOVE AND HOLINESS
Job 23:13
The actual words in the New International version are:
I have not departed from the commands of his lips;
I have treasured the words of his mouth more than my daily bread.
13 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose him?
He does whatever he pleases.
14 He carries out his decree against me,
and many such plans he still has in store.
15 That is why I am terrified before him;
when I think of all this, I fear him.
And what is the context here? It is about how Job sees how God is and is again by no means applicable to all for Gods Universal Laws abound God’s desires, he did not make robots!
Gal. 2:6
Context again:
5We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you.
6As for those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance—those men added nothing to my message. 7On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles,[ just as Peter had been to the Jews.
Romans 5:18
I am almost beginning to wonder if you are being disingenuous, BUT i DON'T REALLY BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE A GOOD HEART, HOWVER, look just a few lines before
5: 1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.
Access by Faith do you see?
17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. - MANY NOT ALL
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Context here is the right to life for all but after adds “the many not all will receive for faith is required see the earlier part.
Matt. 22
Yet again you have overlooked the previous part
1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
4Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'
5"But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. - WHAT About those huh? Do you really understand this parable?
8"Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. Good and bad who wanted to come not the previous lot some of whom were invited it is indeed a rich parable
Galatians 3:9
Yet again look at the part about faith closely
6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
Luke 2:10;"
News of great joy that will be for all the people. Yes but not all will understand as Jesus subsequently say let them that have ears hear
John 12:32
Jesus precedes by stating when he is lifted up and this refers to the ascension following the resurrection which is clear from the preceding parts of that chapter so drawing people to the truth but not all will hear as mentioned elsewhere and how do we reconcile this with Jesus solemn declaration that anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven or recognised in heaven?
It could also be referring to Jesus not returning to earth until the gospel has been preached in all nations
1Corinth. 3:15
Needs to be considered within the context of what Paul is preaching to the Corinthians who have already turned to Christ as we can see in context here
5What, after all, is Apollo’s? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollo’s watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labour. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
It is about seed planting in new converts ( PEOLE WHO HAVE FAITH AND HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN) and giving credit to God, the lesson is not about who will be saved generally as most of my quotes were.
I hope you see better now my dear friend and seriously for a truly awesome analysis of what the common theme of the whole Bible is I can’t recommend enough an old book by Michael Green called “ I believe in Satan’s downfall it even goes deep into the most perplexing book of revelations quite lucidly published by Hodder and Stoughton in 1981, it really shows the spiritual battle going throughout the history of this universe in a highly intellectual way, very good food for thought indeed 6you do not have to accept all that is in it but at least check it out
May God Bless you in Jesus name
So its according to what draws your belief more.
The Salvation of all draws my belief more.
Peace.
Greetings Mickiel again I have looked through your selection of quotes and answered them in the order you posted them, context is so important and I hope you noted that most of mine were in the context of who is being saved and I note you have used a lot of Pauls letters which time and again refer to those with faith but lets look at all of yours now:
Colossians 2:13
Ok who is Paul addressing here in his beautifully intellectual way look to the beginning and we can see:
1I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.
Freedom from Human Regulations through Life with Christ
6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having cancelled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
You see, He was preaching to those who had already accepted Jesus as their Saviour, the context is essential in scripture we don’t just cherry pick
John 4:42 is only the Samaritans stating that they believe and will be saved and being the Saviour of the world is indeed a gift to us all by His Blood but still takes no account of free will and to refer to the world can be the geophysical world as well as a big majority but not necessecerily everyone
Eph.2:8
In this passage you have overlooked one key word: “by Grace you have been saved through Faith and that not of yourselves it is about having faith
John 6:33
Again to the world see the point above
Hebrews 9:26
Again consider the context just before this we read 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
This means having the Holy Spirit within us to guide our consciences to grow and lead blameless lives on earth for those who are called or those who turn to God, this is particularly a message for the Jews who became Christians and are therefore part of the OT references to “Israel which all Christians and true Jewish people of faith are.
Titus 2:11
The actual words here are:
9Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Saviour attractive.
11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. not been recieved by all men!
Luke 3:6
Again, look at the context:
the rough ways smooth.
6And all mankind will see God's salvation.' "
Straight after this we see: 7John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire." enough said?
Isaiah 65
"I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me;
I was found by those who did not seek me.
To a nation that did not call on my name,
I said, 'Here am I, here am I.'
I believe God is talking in the past tense here about the Nation of his people but just look further in that same book 65
All day long I have held out my hands
to an obstinate people,
who walk in ways not good,
pursuing their own imaginations-
3 a people who continually provoke me
to my very face,
offering sacrifices in gardens
and burning incense on altars of brick;
4 who sit among the graves
and spend their nights keeping secret vigil;
who eat the flesh of pigs,
and whose pots hold broth of unclean meat;
5 who say, 'Keep away; don't come near me,
for I am too sacred for you!'
Such people are smoke in my nostrils,
a fire that keeps burning all day.
6 "See, it stands written before me:
I will not keep silent but will pay back in full;
I will pay it back into their laps-
7 both your sins and the sins of your fathers,"
says the LORD.
"Because they burned sacrifices on the mountains
and defied me on the hills,
I will measure into their laps
the full payment for their former deeds."
8 This is what the LORD says:
"As when juice is still found in a cluster of grapes
and men say, 'Don't destroy it,
there is yet some good in it,'
so will I do in behalf of my servants;
I will not destroy them all. the implication being that some will be obviously
Romans 9: 25-26
With respect yet again you have overlooked the context here is a slighter larger part of that passage:
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[j]
27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved. SO WHAT IS THIS?
28For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality."[
2Peter 3:9;
Just step back to 2 Peter 2
False Teachers and Their Destruction
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. putting them into gloomy dungeons [to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; VERY CLEAR INDEED!
7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard) 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
CLEAR AGAIN
And back to chapter 3 in context
3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the Day of Judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare! SO CHAPTER 2 IS THE BACKGROUND TO THAT MESSAGE
1Tim. 2:3-4
I’m really sorry to say Mickiel, again look at the context here for yes it would be beautiful if all mankind is to be saved:
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Saviour, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. IF THEY CONTINUE IN FAITH LOVE AND HOLINESS
Job 23:13
The actual words in the New International version are:
I have not departed from the commands of his lips;
I have treasured the words of his mouth more than my daily bread.
13 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose him?
He does whatever he pleases.
14 He carries out his decree against me,
and many such plans he still has in store.
15 That is why I am terrified before him;
when I think of all this, I fear him.
And what is the context here? It is about how Job sees how God is and is again by no means applicable to all for Gods Universal Laws abound God’s desires, he did not make robots!
Gal. 2:6
Context again:
5We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you.
6As for those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance—those men added nothing to my message. 7On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles,[ just as Peter had been to the Jews.
Romans 5:18
I am almost beginning to wonder if you are being disingenuous, BUT i DON'T REALLY BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE A GOOD HEART, HOWVER, look just a few lines before
5: 1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.
Access by Faith do you see?
17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. - MANY NOT ALL
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Context here is the right to life for all but after adds “the many not all will receive for faith is required see the earlier part.
Matt. 22
Yet again you have overlooked the previous part
1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
4Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'
5"But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. - WHAT About those huh? Do you really understand this parable?
8"Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. Good and bad who wanted to come not the previous lot some of whom were invited it is indeed a rich parable
Galatians 3:9
Yet again look at the part about faith closely
6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
Luke 2:10;"
News of great joy that will be for all the people. Yes but not all will understand as Jesus subsequently say let them that have ears hear
John 12:32
Jesus precedes by stating when he is lifted up and this refers to the ascension following the resurrection which is clear from the preceding parts of that chapter so drawing people to the truth but not all will hear as mentioned elsewhere and how do we reconcile this with Jesus solemn declaration that anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven or recognised in heaven?
It could also be referring to Jesus not returning to earth until the gospel has been preached in all nations
1Corinth. 3:15
Needs to be considered within the context of what Paul is preaching to the Corinthians who have already turned to Christ as we can see in context here
5What, after all, is Apollo’s? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollo’s watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labour. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
It is about seed planting in new converts ( PEOLE WHO HAVE FAITH AND HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN) and giving credit to God, the lesson is not about who will be saved generally as most of my quotes were.
I hope you see better now my dear friend and seriously for a truly awesome analysis of what the common theme of the whole Bible is I can’t recommend enough an old book by Michael Green called “ I believe in Satan’s downfall it even goes deep into the most perplexing book of revelations quite lucidly published by Hodder and Stoughton in 1981, it really shows the spiritual battle going throughout the history of this universe in a highly intellectual way, very good food for thought indeed 6you do not have to accept all that is in it but at least check it out
May God Bless you in Jesus name
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
freethinkingthuthseeker;1329236 wrote: Greetings Mickiel
I hope you see better now my dear friend and seriously for a truly awesome analysis of what the common theme of the whole Bible is I can’t recommend enough an old book by Michael Green called “ I believe in Satan’s downfall” it even goes deep into the most perplexing book of revelations quite lucidly published by Hodder and Stoughton in 1981, it really shows the spiritual battle going throughout the history of this universe in a highly intellectual way, very good food for thought indeed 6you do not have to accept all that is in it but at least check it out
May God Bless you in Jesus name
I hold no intrest in Michael Green, my belief is solid on its own. In John 9:39 Jesus said he came into the world for judgement, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be blind. This tells me that all the unconverted that your view condemns will be given sight, and that your view of things is blind.
Those who do not believe will one day believe, and I hold no intrest in your blindness to this.
Peace.
I hope you see better now my dear friend and seriously for a truly awesome analysis of what the common theme of the whole Bible is I can’t recommend enough an old book by Michael Green called “ I believe in Satan’s downfall” it even goes deep into the most perplexing book of revelations quite lucidly published by Hodder and Stoughton in 1981, it really shows the spiritual battle going throughout the history of this universe in a highly intellectual way, very good food for thought indeed 6you do not have to accept all that is in it but at least check it out
May God Bless you in Jesus name
I hold no intrest in Michael Green, my belief is solid on its own. In John 9:39 Jesus said he came into the world for judgement, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be blind. This tells me that all the unconverted that your view condemns will be given sight, and that your view of things is blind.
Those who do not believe will one day believe, and I hold no intrest in your blindness to this.
Peace.
-
freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel;1329394 wrote: I hold no intrest in Michael Green, my belief is solid on its own. In John 9:39 Jesus said he came into the world for judgement, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be blind. This tells me that all the unconverted that your view condemns will be given sight, and that your view of things is blind.
Those who do not believe will one day believe, and I hold no intrest in your blindness to this.
Peace.
Do you mean my blindness as I described the context of your posts on the idea of all being saved? You have not addressed these but you had stated tht you would like to discuss this for as few weeks, do you agree with the issues I pointed out? Some or all or none of them? Lets have a discussion about this?
Bless you
Those who do not believe will one day believe, and I hold no intrest in your blindness to this.
Peace.
Do you mean my blindness as I described the context of your posts on the idea of all being saved? You have not addressed these but you had stated tht you would like to discuss this for as few weeks, do you agree with the issues I pointed out? Some or all or none of them? Lets have a discussion about this?
Bless you
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
freethinkingthuthseeker;1329407 wrote: Do you mean my blindness as I described the context of your posts on the idea of all being saved? You have not addressed these but you had stated tht you would like to discuss this for as few weeks, do you agree with the issues I pointed out? Some or all or none of them? Lets have a discussion about this?
Bless you
I agree with the interpitation of scripture as I understand it myself, I can do no more than that. I see universal Salvation in scripture, and I expound on that and explain it.
I welcome any discussion you wish to engage.
Peace.
Bless you
I agree with the interpitation of scripture as I understand it myself, I can do no more than that. I see universal Salvation in scripture, and I expound on that and explain it.
I welcome any discussion you wish to engage.
Peace.
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freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel;1329558 wrote: I agree with the interpitation of scripture as I understand it myself, I can do no more than that. I see universal Salvation in scripture, and I expound on that and explain it.
I welcome any discussion you wish to engage.
Peace.
BUT surely i have rasied points to dicuss from your brief references, can we not start by exploring them together in more depth? but for now how do we reconcile your assertion with Jesus solemn declaration that anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven or recognised in heaven?
I welcome any discussion you wish to engage.
Peace.
BUT surely i have rasied points to dicuss from your brief references, can we not start by exploring them together in more depth? but for now how do we reconcile your assertion with Jesus solemn declaration that anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven or recognised in heaven?
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
freethinkingthuthseeker;1329698 wrote: BUT surely i have rasied points to dicuss from your brief references, can we not start by exploring them together in more depth? but for now how do we reconcile your assertion with Jesus solemn declaration that anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven or recognised in heaven?
Well in Mark 3:28 Jesus states that all sins shall be forgiven men, and whatever Blasphemies they utter, then he contridicts that by saying that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is an " Eternal sin." Well if all blasphemys we utter are forgiven, they why not this blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? That is unclear to me, I don't even know what blasphemy against the Spirit is? Thats not clear in scripture either, and I do not believe in " Eternal sin", the bible repeatly claims that sin will be done away with. So I am unclear on this one and only so called unforgivable sin. Hebrews 7:25 claims that Christ " Always lives to make intercession for us."
Whatever this blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is, I believe Jesus can wipe that out also.
Peace.
Well in Mark 3:28 Jesus states that all sins shall be forgiven men, and whatever Blasphemies they utter, then he contridicts that by saying that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is an " Eternal sin." Well if all blasphemys we utter are forgiven, they why not this blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? That is unclear to me, I don't even know what blasphemy against the Spirit is? Thats not clear in scripture either, and I do not believe in " Eternal sin", the bible repeatly claims that sin will be done away with. So I am unclear on this one and only so called unforgivable sin. Hebrews 7:25 claims that Christ " Always lives to make intercession for us."
Whatever this blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is, I believe Jesus can wipe that out also.
Peace.
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sunshine4486
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:19 pm
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Enjoy your search, and I hope you find what you are lookng for, if your even looking for anything. Maybe just understanding..Mickiel
Understanding by yourself is not recommend even the bible says that..(Proverbs 3:5) Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding.
I dont know what bible you use, probably the JKV and of coarse that is cool, it is close to being the most accurate to the manuscripts in the Vatican, that is where they are..
need any help let me know, ok... I am a very open minded person and I am very knowledgeable about the BIBLE not a preacher just a teacher..he he that is cute..sunshine4486
Understanding by yourself is not recommend even the bible says that..(Proverbs 3:5) Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding.
I dont know what bible you use, probably the JKV and of coarse that is cool, it is close to being the most accurate to the manuscripts in the Vatican, that is where they are..
need any help let me know, ok... I am a very open minded person and I am very knowledgeable about the BIBLE not a preacher just a teacher..he he that is cute..sunshine4486
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
sunshine4486;1330151 wrote: Enjoy your search, and I hope you find what you are lookng for, if your even looking for anything. Maybe just understanding..Mickiel
Understanding by yourself is not recommend even the bible says that..(Proverbs 3:5) Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding.
I dont know what bible you use, probably the JKV and of coarse that is cool, it is close to being the most accurate to the manuscripts in the Vatican, that is where they are..
need any help let me know, ok... I am a very open minded person and I am very knowledgeable about the BIBLE not a preacher just a teacher..he he that is cute..sunshine4486
Do you believe in eternal hell suffering?
Peace.
Understanding by yourself is not recommend even the bible says that..(Proverbs 3:5) Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding.
I dont know what bible you use, probably the JKV and of coarse that is cool, it is close to being the most accurate to the manuscripts in the Vatican, that is where they are..
need any help let me know, ok... I am a very open minded person and I am very knowledgeable about the BIBLE not a preacher just a teacher..he he that is cute..sunshine4486
Do you believe in eternal hell suffering?
Peace.
-
freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel;1330315 wrote: Do you believe in eternal hell suffering?
Peace.
I TOO BELIEVE that Jesus can ask his Father to forgive anything for us and will ask for so much on our behalves, yet we are not robots and i do believe for sure that buddists for example will even on their death bed be given a chance to acknowledge Jesus as their Saviour BUT still not all as demonstrated above when I gave many examples of what Jesus actually stated when asked about the end times.
That doevtails well into your next question about eternal Hell. My belief on thjis comes from a revelation about what is fire in the Bible, The apostles were blessed by the fire of the Holy Spirit for example,
I believe as Jeus said about the nashing of teeth of those who are not saved it refers to the fire of frstration in the hearts of those who are left outside of Love and Heaven. As for eternal I think when this world ends that will be the end of one eternity and then there will be a new eternity, for all we know there will be a third erternity and they will be saved then fpor I do know that God wastes nothing and created all!
the Teacher is absolutley correct that it is dangerous to learn the Bible alone, but it is just as potentially hazardous to learn from only one other person too, make sure you disuss each question or lesson with more than one source and only then make your own decision. If you ever decide to follow thw best advice to invite Jeus into your life, you will truely get increadible help from the Holy Ghost to better understand Scripture in deeper and deeper ways and your life will become so much richer.
Please note I am not advocating joining any particular Church here although you can always go into any chruch for a worship service.
Bless you Mickiel
Peace.
I TOO BELIEVE that Jesus can ask his Father to forgive anything for us and will ask for so much on our behalves, yet we are not robots and i do believe for sure that buddists for example will even on their death bed be given a chance to acknowledge Jesus as their Saviour BUT still not all as demonstrated above when I gave many examples of what Jesus actually stated when asked about the end times.
That doevtails well into your next question about eternal Hell. My belief on thjis comes from a revelation about what is fire in the Bible, The apostles were blessed by the fire of the Holy Spirit for example,
I believe as Jeus said about the nashing of teeth of those who are not saved it refers to the fire of frstration in the hearts of those who are left outside of Love and Heaven. As for eternal I think when this world ends that will be the end of one eternity and then there will be a new eternity, for all we know there will be a third erternity and they will be saved then fpor I do know that God wastes nothing and created all!
the Teacher is absolutley correct that it is dangerous to learn the Bible alone, but it is just as potentially hazardous to learn from only one other person too, make sure you disuss each question or lesson with more than one source and only then make your own decision. If you ever decide to follow thw best advice to invite Jeus into your life, you will truely get increadible help from the Holy Ghost to better understand Scripture in deeper and deeper ways and your life will become so much richer.
Please note I am not advocating joining any particular Church here although you can always go into any chruch for a worship service.
Bless you Mickiel
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
sunshine4486;1330151 wrote: Enjoy your search, and I hope you find what you are lookng for, if your even looking for anything. Maybe just understanding..Mickiel
Understanding by yourself is not recommend even the bible says that..(Proverbs 3:5) Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding.
I dont know what bible you use, probably the JKV and of coarse that is cool, it is close to being the most accurate to the manuscripts in the Vatican, that is where they are..
need any help let me know, ok... I am a very open minded person and I am very knowledgeable about the BIBLE not a preacher just a teacher..he he that is cute..sunshine4486
Well thank you, but for the time being, I must walk alone in my experience with wanting to know God and the truth. By the way, I use the New Scofield study bible, I like and prefer it.
Peace.
Understanding by yourself is not recommend even the bible says that..(Proverbs 3:5) Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding.
I dont know what bible you use, probably the JKV and of coarse that is cool, it is close to being the most accurate to the manuscripts in the Vatican, that is where they are..
need any help let me know, ok... I am a very open minded person and I am very knowledgeable about the BIBLE not a preacher just a teacher..he he that is cute..sunshine4486
Well thank you, but for the time being, I must walk alone in my experience with wanting to know God and the truth. By the way, I use the New Scofield study bible, I like and prefer it.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
freethinkingthuthseeker;1332452 wrote:
Please note I am not advocating joining any particular Church here although you can always go into any chruch for a worship service.
Bless you Mickiel
Well thank you for your concern. I have been to churchs and I no longer like them. But I understand their value to others.
I'm in a strange stage of learning, its just me and God, and God is a trip, he hides so much from me and willnot give me his Spirit. So I have to play the hand he gives me.
Peace.
Please note I am not advocating joining any particular Church here although you can always go into any chruch for a worship service.
Bless you Mickiel
Well thank you for your concern. I have been to churchs and I no longer like them. But I understand their value to others.
I'm in a strange stage of learning, its just me and God, and God is a trip, he hides so much from me and willnot give me his Spirit. So I have to play the hand he gives me.
Peace.
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freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel;1332995 wrote: Well thank you for your concern. I have been to churchs and I no longer like them. But I understand their value to others.
I'm in a strange stage of learning, its just me and God, and God is a trip, he hides so much from me and willnot give me his Spirit. So I have to play the hand he gives me.
i hear you well mickiel but dont rely on one study Bible and you will certainly get the spirit if you invite Jesus into your heart, acknowledge that he is your saviour and become baptised the apostles were as adults. this is clear from scripture. have you ever been in a modern pentecostal church by the way?
it is also good to listen for what God is telling you and to pray before reading scripture for part of God making us in his image is imbueing his spirit in us which accounts for all the many random acts of kindness in this world
Peace.
bless you
k
I'm in a strange stage of learning, its just me and God, and God is a trip, he hides so much from me and willnot give me his Spirit. So I have to play the hand he gives me.
i hear you well mickiel but dont rely on one study Bible and you will certainly get the spirit if you invite Jesus into your heart, acknowledge that he is your saviour and become baptised the apostles were as adults. this is clear from scripture. have you ever been in a modern pentecostal church by the way?
it is also good to listen for what God is telling you and to pray before reading scripture for part of God making us in his image is imbueing his spirit in us which accounts for all the many random acts of kindness in this world
Peace.
bless you
k
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
freethinkingthuthseeker;1333081 wrote: bless you
k
I don't like Penecostal churchs, nor their ministers. I don't like their doctrines, nor how they explain salvation. Such places are just not for me. My view of God sees him bringing the total rehabilitation of mankind into reality. Its his will, in my view, and I understand that no church believes this, so churchs are not for me. Job 23:13 states that God is unique ( and he certainly must be Freethinker) it states that what his soul desires, that he simply will get. In 1Tim. 2:4 it plainly states that he desires for all humans to be saved. I see this as academic and unstoppable. Churchs do not.
So I walk alone. But I believe it.
Peace.
k
I don't like Penecostal churchs, nor their ministers. I don't like their doctrines, nor how they explain salvation. Such places are just not for me. My view of God sees him bringing the total rehabilitation of mankind into reality. Its his will, in my view, and I understand that no church believes this, so churchs are not for me. Job 23:13 states that God is unique ( and he certainly must be Freethinker) it states that what his soul desires, that he simply will get. In 1Tim. 2:4 it plainly states that he desires for all humans to be saved. I see this as academic and unstoppable. Churchs do not.
So I walk alone. But I believe it.
Peace.
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freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel you have roused my curiousity, are you referring to progressive pentecostal Churches, traditional or both?
in any case what doctrines and issues arounf salvation disturb you so?
It is also always good to have a mentor once you are born again or do you not believe in this too?
Of course God can do anything but lets face it all the sciptural references, specifically directed to who and how to be saved contradict your position including from our Lord Jesus himself.
hope to continue all the dialogues with you and go further too in any direction you wish
Peace be upon you too
in any case what doctrines and issues arounf salvation disturb you so?
It is also always good to have a mentor once you are born again or do you not believe in this too?
Of course God can do anything but lets face it all the sciptural references, specifically directed to who and how to be saved contradict your position including from our Lord Jesus himself.
hope to continue all the dialogues with you and go further too in any direction you wish
Peace be upon you too
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
freethinkingthuthseeker;1333199 wrote: Mickiel you have roused my curiousity, are you referring to progressive pentecostal Churches, traditional or both?
in any case what doctrines and issues arounf salvation disturb you so?
It is also always good to have a mentor once you are born again or do you not believe in this too?
Of course God can do anything but lets face it all the sciptural references, specifically directed to who and how to be saved contradict your position including from our Lord Jesus himself.
hope to continue all the dialogues with you and go further too in any direction you wish
Peace be upon you too
I am speaking about all churchs. I do not like doctrines that limit salvation. And I myself do not need a mentor, that is for those who need it. I want nobody between me and God.
Peace.
in any case what doctrines and issues arounf salvation disturb you so?
It is also always good to have a mentor once you are born again or do you not believe in this too?
Of course God can do anything but lets face it all the sciptural references, specifically directed to who and how to be saved contradict your position including from our Lord Jesus himself.
hope to continue all the dialogues with you and go further too in any direction you wish
Peace be upon you too
I am speaking about all churchs. I do not like doctrines that limit salvation. And I myself do not need a mentor, that is for those who need it. I want nobody between me and God.
Peace.
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freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
forgive me, I do not mean anyone between you and God I meant if as you claim God is as yet not communicating with you, until you hear God clearly.
Also if the ponly doctrine that disturbs you is asbout savation for all no true christain will argue aginst this desire of God but he still gives us complete free will, can you see the destinction?
Also if the ponly doctrine that disturbs you is asbout savation for all no true christain will argue aginst this desire of God but he still gives us complete free will, can you see the destinction?
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
freethinkingthuthseeker;1333353 wrote: forgive me, I do not mean anyone between you and God I meant if as you claim God is as yet not communicating with you, until you hear God clearly.
Also if the ponly doctrine that disturbs you is asbout savation for all no true christain will argue aginst this desire of God but he still gives us complete free will, can you see the destinction?
Greetings Freethinker,
That is not the only disagreement, I will list a few of the others;
Christians believe in the Trinity, I do not.
They believe Satan is Lucifer, I do not.
They believe in free will, I do not.
They believe in the curse of the Tithe, I do not.
They believe they are the church of God, I do not.
They believe that God is using evangelism to convert others, I do not.
They believe their leaders are annointed by God , I do not.
And there is much more that I disagree with, but just wanted to list a few.
Peace.
Also if the ponly doctrine that disturbs you is asbout savation for all no true christain will argue aginst this desire of God but he still gives us complete free will, can you see the destinction?
Greetings Freethinker,
That is not the only disagreement, I will list a few of the others;
Christians believe in the Trinity, I do not.
They believe Satan is Lucifer, I do not.
They believe in free will, I do not.
They believe in the curse of the Tithe, I do not.
They believe they are the church of God, I do not.
They believe that God is using evangelism to convert others, I do not.
They believe their leaders are annointed by God , I do not.
And there is much more that I disagree with, but just wanted to list a few.
Peace.
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freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel;1333512 wrote: Greetings Freethinker,
That is not the only disagreement, I will list a few of the others;
Christians believe in the Trinity, I do not.
They believe Satan is Lucifer, I do not.
They believe in free will, I do not.
They believe in the curse of the Tithe, I do not.
They believe they are the church of God, I do not.
They believe that God is using evangelism to convert others, I do not.
They believe their leaders are annointed by God , I do not.
And there is much more that I disagree with, but just wanted to list a few.
Peace.
Hi Mickiel
wow you seem to hasve big issues indeed
would you care to takew time to discuss these scripturally one by one starting with the Trinity?
Are you aware that in Genesis 1 the english ONE GOD in the original hebrew is plural?
Also in the same book on the third day God introduced light into this universe and eternity but then on the forth day created the sun stars and moon so who / what was the light on the third day?
Who is the comforter in thec early parts of the Bible?
Who gives us wisdom in psalms?
Who came inside Jesus and the Apostles at the baptism and pentecost? respectively?
God bless you
That is not the only disagreement, I will list a few of the others;
Christians believe in the Trinity, I do not.
They believe Satan is Lucifer, I do not.
They believe in free will, I do not.
They believe in the curse of the Tithe, I do not.
They believe they are the church of God, I do not.
They believe that God is using evangelism to convert others, I do not.
They believe their leaders are annointed by God , I do not.
And there is much more that I disagree with, but just wanted to list a few.
Peace.
Hi Mickiel
wow you seem to hasve big issues indeed
would you care to takew time to discuss these scripturally one by one starting with the Trinity?
Are you aware that in Genesis 1 the english ONE GOD in the original hebrew is plural?
Also in the same book on the third day God introduced light into this universe and eternity but then on the forth day created the sun stars and moon so who / what was the light on the third day?
Who is the comforter in thec early parts of the Bible?
Who gives us wisdom in psalms?
Who came inside Jesus and the Apostles at the baptism and pentecost? respectively?
God bless you
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Greetings Freethinker,
Well sure, I am willing to explain myself in these areas.
I do not believe in " Three Gods", in Eph. 4:6 it states there is " One God and Father of all." Only one Lord, and I believe that. In Isaiah 44:6 it says " Thus says the Lord", so this is God himself speaking; He said I am the first and the last, there is no other God besides me, and Jesus was sitting beside him when he said this. I believe what God himself said here, not what Christianity is saying. Its academic to me.
There is only one God, not three Gods.
Peace.
Well sure, I am willing to explain myself in these areas.
I do not believe in " Three Gods", in Eph. 4:6 it states there is " One God and Father of all." Only one Lord, and I believe that. In Isaiah 44:6 it says " Thus says the Lord", so this is God himself speaking; He said I am the first and the last, there is no other God besides me, and Jesus was sitting beside him when he said this. I believe what God himself said here, not what Christianity is saying. Its academic to me.
There is only one God, not three Gods.
Peace.
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freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
How do you know Jeus was sitting beside his Father when the issaiah quiote was said? where is the scriptural reference for that and the Concept of the trinity is not that there are 3 Gods but One in 3, a divine Godly miracle.
You have not referred to my question about the plurality of God in Genesis 1 at all and seemt o temnd to ignore references to scripture I give, may I ask why as you do wish to discuss the Bible?
Whay about the first words of the Gospel of John:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. ?
Which also goes well with:
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
also
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. ???
Then there is John 17: 1
1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.?
and in 17:3 emphatically: 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
If John 17:3 did mean that the Father was the only true God to the exclusion of Jesus Christ, then it would be odd for John in other passages to affirm that Christ is God. If there is only one true God, and Jesus is not that God, then he is not truly God at all.
Yet John explicitly calls Jesus “God,” and does so in contexts that make it clear that he is God no less than the Father.
For the early Christians, the centre of their faith was faith in a triune God. They lived in a world where pagans believed in many gods. The Jews believed in one God and did not accept Jesus Christ as divine. But the experience of the early Christians was that Jesus Christ was God. They also experienced the Holy Spirit as God. In Jesus Christ, the early Christians met God. ‘Those who have seen me have seen the Father’, said Jesus. This was the experience of the early church. Similarly, in experiencing the Holy Spirit, they experienced the presence and power of God. They believed that God was one but at the same time Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit were understood to be divine. For them, if Jesus Christ was not God, we are not saved; and if the Holy Spirit is not divine, we are not sanctified. The early Christians were neither Jews who simply believed in one God, nor pagans who believed in many gods.
2Corinth 13 -14 also has
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you
or Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"-
The key Isiaah refererence is 9:6 -"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Thus a son who will be born at a particular point in history (to a virgin or young woman[Isa. 7:14] is also "Mighty God, Everlasting Father".
and more such as Luke 1:35 "The angel answered and said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.'
Colossians 1:16 "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him" and 2:9 ("For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form"), and in Paul the Apostle's claim in Galatians 1:1 to have been "sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father".
Daniel 7 speaks of Worshipping the Saviour so do we worship anyone other than God?
addendum fya
The Greek word for communion or fellowship is koinonia. It refers to a shared reality.- greek being the original language of the NT
What life have you, if you have not life together? There is no life that is not in community. And no community not lived in the praise of God.
Similarly, we when saved become the Body of Christ as one as the Bride in Heaven but one corporate body.
further we on earth are made up of flesh soul and Spirit They are three distinct aspects, yet they are inseparable and together constitute one unified human being.
take John 17:20-21 where JESUS IS REFERRING TO US
0"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.., thus we are one , one Body in Christ
Or what about John 15: 26-27? on the Holy Spirit?
26"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.?
In the New Testament, Jews are described as rejecting Jesus' claims apparent claims to divinity, accusing him of blasphemy. In the Gospel of Mark, for instance, Jesus forgives a man's sins and some Jewish teachers thought to themselves: "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?
The Triune God has made this possible for us in Jesus Christ. God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whosoever believed in him should not perish but have eternal life. Lastly in the beginning ( Genesis) to whom is God referring when he states after the Fall " Behold he becomes like US"???
by the way John also has the only credible reference to muslims in 16: 2 2They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.
OH i SO HOPE YOU ARE PRAYING FROM ALL YOUR HEART FOR GOD TO SHOW YOU THE WAY and for you to hear him according to Scripture
Bless you
You have not referred to my question about the plurality of God in Genesis 1 at all and seemt o temnd to ignore references to scripture I give, may I ask why as you do wish to discuss the Bible?
Whay about the first words of the Gospel of John:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. ?
Which also goes well with:
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
also
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. ???
Then there is John 17: 1
1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.?
and in 17:3 emphatically: 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
If John 17:3 did mean that the Father was the only true God to the exclusion of Jesus Christ, then it would be odd for John in other passages to affirm that Christ is God. If there is only one true God, and Jesus is not that God, then he is not truly God at all.
Yet John explicitly calls Jesus “God,” and does so in contexts that make it clear that he is God no less than the Father.
For the early Christians, the centre of their faith was faith in a triune God. They lived in a world where pagans believed in many gods. The Jews believed in one God and did not accept Jesus Christ as divine. But the experience of the early Christians was that Jesus Christ was God. They also experienced the Holy Spirit as God. In Jesus Christ, the early Christians met God. ‘Those who have seen me have seen the Father’, said Jesus. This was the experience of the early church. Similarly, in experiencing the Holy Spirit, they experienced the presence and power of God. They believed that God was one but at the same time Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit were understood to be divine. For them, if Jesus Christ was not God, we are not saved; and if the Holy Spirit is not divine, we are not sanctified. The early Christians were neither Jews who simply believed in one God, nor pagans who believed in many gods.
2Corinth 13 -14 also has
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you
or Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"-
The key Isiaah refererence is 9:6 -"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Thus a son who will be born at a particular point in history (to a virgin or young woman[Isa. 7:14] is also "Mighty God, Everlasting Father".
and more such as Luke 1:35 "The angel answered and said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.'
Colossians 1:16 "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him" and 2:9 ("For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form"), and in Paul the Apostle's claim in Galatians 1:1 to have been "sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father".
Daniel 7 speaks of Worshipping the Saviour so do we worship anyone other than God?
addendum fya
The Greek word for communion or fellowship is koinonia. It refers to a shared reality.- greek being the original language of the NT
What life have you, if you have not life together? There is no life that is not in community. And no community not lived in the praise of God.
Similarly, we when saved become the Body of Christ as one as the Bride in Heaven but one corporate body.
further we on earth are made up of flesh soul and Spirit They are three distinct aspects, yet they are inseparable and together constitute one unified human being.
take John 17:20-21 where JESUS IS REFERRING TO US
0"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.., thus we are one , one Body in Christ
Or what about John 15: 26-27? on the Holy Spirit?
26"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.?
In the New Testament, Jews are described as rejecting Jesus' claims apparent claims to divinity, accusing him of blasphemy. In the Gospel of Mark, for instance, Jesus forgives a man's sins and some Jewish teachers thought to themselves: "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?
The Triune God has made this possible for us in Jesus Christ. God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whosoever believed in him should not perish but have eternal life. Lastly in the beginning ( Genesis) to whom is God referring when he states after the Fall " Behold he becomes like US"???
by the way John also has the only credible reference to muslims in 16: 2 2They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.
OH i SO HOPE YOU ARE PRAYING FROM ALL YOUR HEART FOR GOD TO SHOW YOU THE WAY and for you to hear him according to Scripture
Bless you
-
freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel, just for you, some additional ideas about the explantion of the Trinity I have just found online
the mystery of the Trinity is, that the Spirit is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God. The Spirit is the Spirit of Christ as well.
You have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in you. You have the Spirit of God dwelling in you, and, you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you. God is the Creator, and yet, all things are made by Christ. And, yet, it was the Holy Spirit who moved over the face of the waters and brought creation into existence. You pray to God, and yet, you can pray to the Son of God, and you can also pray to the Spirit of God, and you have indications of that all throughout scripture.
You see particular responsibilities that members of the Trinity have, but, as far as the person is concerned, you cannot draw hard lines between them. We do know that God is the Creator, the Old Testament talks about that. He is the Creator. And, thus, He bears the name Father as the Source, as it were. But, we also know that nothing was made without Christ. That’s the way the gospel of John begins. “All things were made by Him and nothing was made that was not made by Him. And so, we do understand that, while the Father was doing the creation, as identified in the Old Testament, He was not apart from the Son, nor was He apart from the Spirit.
You have, in the Trinity, an indivisible oneness, and yet, specifically, there are duties that members of the Trinity are stated to have been given. The Father, as we understand, is primarily viewed in scripture as The Creator and The Source of Life. The Son is primarily viewed as The Savior and The Redeemer, but God is also the Redeemer: “God our Redeemer, the Old Testament says. And, so, I understand the confusion, but it’s not really confusion. It is simply an awakening, recognition of the mystery of the Trinity. God and Jesus are the same. God and the Holy Spirit are the same, and yet, they are distinctly three persons. Now, that is paradoxical, apparently, to us, that is contradictory, apparently to us, and that is inscrutable. You have one God, and that one God has always had three persons within the one God.
There are old heresies that say, “God is the Father, then he changes his mask, and He becomes the Son, then He changes His mask and becomes the Holy Spirit. That’s heresy. God is one, and yet, three distinct persons. And, yet, we cannot distinguish them completely.
For example, God is portrayed in the Bible as Judge many, many times. God sits on a throne as the judge of the earth. And, yet, it tells us in the gospel of John that He has committed all judgment to the Son. At the end of human history, when the Son comes to glory with all of redeemed humanity, He gives us all, as it were, as a love gift to the Father who gave us all as a love gift to the Son.
You’re just awakening to the fact that this is an impossible reality to explain. But it’s no more impossible than infinity or eternity. Can you think of endless, something that’s endless? No. I mean, you can understand the concept, but you can’t fathom it in your mind. You can’t comprehend eternity. It’s a concept that’s beyond our capability as space/time creatures. Nor can we understand the nature of God as eternal and, as one, and yet three distinct persons.
So, what we say about that is, you can’t figure it out. You simply take it as it comes in scripture. And, clearly, there are three members of the Trinity. There is the Father, there’s the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Why is the son called the Son? For one primary reason, and that is because He bears the same nature as the Father. It is to make sure that we understand. It’s a concession to us as human beings because the Father didn’t create the Son. There never was a time when there was only a Father until He had a son, and there was never a mother. Those are simply terms to identify, and they did so for the Jewish mind, "shared nature." A son bears the nature of His Father. And, that is simply a way for God to establish that the nature of Jesus Christ is the same as the nature of God. When you’re in the Old Testament and there is a text or passages about God, when you see Him as Father in the Old Testament, you see Him as Father of the nation Israel because He brought the nation into existence. Or, you see Him as Father of mankind because He created mankind. But, when you come to the New Testament, God is identified as the God and Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ, not to indicate that God created Him, or brought Him into existence, like He did Israel and the human race, but to indicate that He is of the same nature. And, Jesus defined that very clearly when he said, “If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father. I and the Father are one. I work and the Father works, and there’s no difference. So you can read books on the Trinity. There’s some wonderful things that have been written on the Trinity. There are some big books and some little books that do their best with the Trinity, and at the end of the day, you know what happens? All you can do is take the passages about the Father, line ‘em up and explain ‘em. Take the passages about the Son, line ‘em up and explain ‘em. Take the passages about the Spirit, line ‘em up and explain ‘em. And, you find a lot of overlap because when one works, the other works, and it still will never explain the impossible mystery of how He can be one and three at the same time.
so hope that helps
Kevin
the mystery of the Trinity is, that the Spirit is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God. The Spirit is the Spirit of Christ as well.
You have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in you. You have the Spirit of God dwelling in you, and, you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you. God is the Creator, and yet, all things are made by Christ. And, yet, it was the Holy Spirit who moved over the face of the waters and brought creation into existence. You pray to God, and yet, you can pray to the Son of God, and you can also pray to the Spirit of God, and you have indications of that all throughout scripture.
You see particular responsibilities that members of the Trinity have, but, as far as the person is concerned, you cannot draw hard lines between them. We do know that God is the Creator, the Old Testament talks about that. He is the Creator. And, thus, He bears the name Father as the Source, as it were. But, we also know that nothing was made without Christ. That’s the way the gospel of John begins. “All things were made by Him and nothing was made that was not made by Him. And so, we do understand that, while the Father was doing the creation, as identified in the Old Testament, He was not apart from the Son, nor was He apart from the Spirit.
You have, in the Trinity, an indivisible oneness, and yet, specifically, there are duties that members of the Trinity are stated to have been given. The Father, as we understand, is primarily viewed in scripture as The Creator and The Source of Life. The Son is primarily viewed as The Savior and The Redeemer, but God is also the Redeemer: “God our Redeemer, the Old Testament says. And, so, I understand the confusion, but it’s not really confusion. It is simply an awakening, recognition of the mystery of the Trinity. God and Jesus are the same. God and the Holy Spirit are the same, and yet, they are distinctly three persons. Now, that is paradoxical, apparently, to us, that is contradictory, apparently to us, and that is inscrutable. You have one God, and that one God has always had three persons within the one God.
There are old heresies that say, “God is the Father, then he changes his mask, and He becomes the Son, then He changes His mask and becomes the Holy Spirit. That’s heresy. God is one, and yet, three distinct persons. And, yet, we cannot distinguish them completely.
For example, God is portrayed in the Bible as Judge many, many times. God sits on a throne as the judge of the earth. And, yet, it tells us in the gospel of John that He has committed all judgment to the Son. At the end of human history, when the Son comes to glory with all of redeemed humanity, He gives us all, as it were, as a love gift to the Father who gave us all as a love gift to the Son.
You’re just awakening to the fact that this is an impossible reality to explain. But it’s no more impossible than infinity or eternity. Can you think of endless, something that’s endless? No. I mean, you can understand the concept, but you can’t fathom it in your mind. You can’t comprehend eternity. It’s a concept that’s beyond our capability as space/time creatures. Nor can we understand the nature of God as eternal and, as one, and yet three distinct persons.
So, what we say about that is, you can’t figure it out. You simply take it as it comes in scripture. And, clearly, there are three members of the Trinity. There is the Father, there’s the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Why is the son called the Son? For one primary reason, and that is because He bears the same nature as the Father. It is to make sure that we understand. It’s a concession to us as human beings because the Father didn’t create the Son. There never was a time when there was only a Father until He had a son, and there was never a mother. Those are simply terms to identify, and they did so for the Jewish mind, "shared nature." A son bears the nature of His Father. And, that is simply a way for God to establish that the nature of Jesus Christ is the same as the nature of God. When you’re in the Old Testament and there is a text or passages about God, when you see Him as Father in the Old Testament, you see Him as Father of the nation Israel because He brought the nation into existence. Or, you see Him as Father of mankind because He created mankind. But, when you come to the New Testament, God is identified as the God and Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ, not to indicate that God created Him, or brought Him into existence, like He did Israel and the human race, but to indicate that He is of the same nature. And, Jesus defined that very clearly when he said, “If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father. I and the Father are one. I work and the Father works, and there’s no difference. So you can read books on the Trinity. There’s some wonderful things that have been written on the Trinity. There are some big books and some little books that do their best with the Trinity, and at the end of the day, you know what happens? All you can do is take the passages about the Father, line ‘em up and explain ‘em. Take the passages about the Son, line ‘em up and explain ‘em. Take the passages about the Spirit, line ‘em up and explain ‘em. And, you find a lot of overlap because when one works, the other works, and it still will never explain the impossible mystery of how He can be one and three at the same time.
so hope that helps
Kevin
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
freethinkingthuthseeker;1334273 wrote: How do you know Jeus was sitting beside his Father when the issaiah quiote was said? where is the scriptural reference for that and the Concept of the trinity is not that there are 3 Gods but One in 3, a divine Godly miracle.
You have not referred to
That is Jesus position, Mark 14:62, he " Sits at the right hand of Power", or God the Father. He is always there, and was there when God said himself that there is no God beside him.
There is only one God, the Father himself said this. It matters not to me what a Christian says.
Peace.
You have not referred to
That is Jesus position, Mark 14:62, he " Sits at the right hand of Power", or God the Father. He is always there, and was there when God said himself that there is no God beside him.
There is only one God, the Father himself said this. It matters not to me what a Christian says.
Peace.
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freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel;1334361 wrote: That is Jesus position, Mark 14:62, he " Sits at the right hand of Power", or God the Father. He is always there, and was there when God said himself that there is no God beside him.
There is only one God, the Father himself said this. It matters not to me what a Christian says.
Peace.
from all i took time to post are you only addressing the one point? and even your response point overlooks the fact that Jeses is speaking in the future tense
here:
Mark 14:62 (New International Version)
62"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
There is only one God, the Father himself said this. It matters not to me what a Christian says.
Peace.
from all i took time to post are you only addressing the one point? and even your response point overlooks the fact that Jeses is speaking in the future tense
here:
Mark 14:62 (New International Version)
62"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
freethinkingthuthseeker;1334405 wrote: from all i took time to post are you only addressing the one point? and even your response point overlooks the fact that Jeses is speaking in the future tense
here:
Mark 14:62 (New International Version)
62"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Sorry Freethinker, I have had to work midnights a few weeks. God and Jesus are constant, and I believe they never will change. Jesus position next to God is then constant, not a thing that he will assume in the future, but a very now thing.
Peace.
here:
Mark 14:62 (New International Version)
62"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Sorry Freethinker, I have had to work midnights a few weeks. God and Jesus are constant, and I believe they never will change. Jesus position next to God is then constant, not a thing that he will assume in the future, but a very now thing.
Peace.
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freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Thanks Mickiel
but yes God is constant but Jesus came to earth and the spirit of God came to him and God can do everything good we can imagine but on Earth In Jeus's time God was amongs us in the flesh as well as the spirit and God is omnipresent so do you deny the sanctity of JESUS?
but yes God is constant but Jesus came to earth and the spirit of God came to him and God can do everything good we can imagine but on Earth In Jeus's time God was amongs us in the flesh as well as the spirit and God is omnipresent so do you deny the sanctity of JESUS?
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
freethinkingthuthseeker;1335834 wrote: Thanks Mickiel
but yes God is constant but Jesus came to earth and the spirit of God came to him and God can do everything good we can imagine but on Earth In Jeus's time God was amongs us in the flesh as well as the spirit and God is omnipresent so do you deny the sanctity of JESUS?
Oh I believe Jesus is a Saint, the Son of God, the King of Kings and our elderBrother, but I do not believe that he is God. I believe in only one God, the Father. And he said that he alone is God, that is enough for me.
Peace.
but yes God is constant but Jesus came to earth and the spirit of God came to him and God can do everything good we can imagine but on Earth In Jeus's time God was amongs us in the flesh as well as the spirit and God is omnipresent so do you deny the sanctity of JESUS?
Oh I believe Jesus is a Saint, the Son of God, the King of Kings and our elderBrother, but I do not believe that he is God. I believe in only one God, the Father. And he said that he alone is God, that is enough for me.
Peace.
-
freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel;1335939 wrote: Oh I believe Jesus is a Saint, the Son of God, the King of Kings and our elderBrother, but I do not believe that he is God. I believe in only one God, the Father. And he said that he alone is God, that is enough for me.
Peace.
so what exactly do the following words from the Gospel of John mean to you?
John 1
The Word Became Flesh
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,
John 8
9Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"
"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."
then contrast this:
john 8
58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
with:
Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "???
John 12
44Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
GOD bless you
Peace.
so what exactly do the following words from the Gospel of John mean to you?
John 1
The Word Became Flesh
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,
John 8
9Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"
"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."
then contrast this:
john 8
58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
with:
Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "???
John 12
44Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
GOD bless you
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
freethinkingthuthseeker;1337125 wrote: so what exactly do the following words from the Gospel of John mean to you?
John 1
The Word Became Flesh
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Well I think it means that the word was with God, and the word was Gods son. I think there is only one God, so now what does this make Jesus? Is he a God? Few scriptures call Jesus a God, but some do, so I am not totally sure about it.
I am leaning toward there being only one God, but Jesus is next to him in power and position.
Peace.
John 1
The Word Became Flesh
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Well I think it means that the word was with God, and the word was Gods son. I think there is only one God, so now what does this make Jesus? Is he a God? Few scriptures call Jesus a God, but some do, so I am not totally sure about it.
I am leaning toward there being only one God, but Jesus is next to him in power and position.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
The bible shifted some gears in my mind, I thought much of humanity was doomed, only to discover that is simply not true. We were created to live, and I want to get back into that. To have life and have it abundantly, or forever.
Peace.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel;1340388 wrote: The bible shifted some gears in my mind, I thought much of humanity was doomed, only to discover that is simply not true. We were created to live, and I want to get back into that. To have life and have it abundantly, or forever.
Peace.
We all live and move and have our being, but " For What?" I mean WHY are we alive? Is it just to live and die? Are we from a result of the most incredible stroke of luck that banged life into existence, are we continous with the idiot hiearchy of speechless apes? Or is there a design to all of this, is there really a God?
And I want to get into that.
Peace.
Peace.
We all live and move and have our being, but " For What?" I mean WHY are we alive? Is it just to live and die? Are we from a result of the most incredible stroke of luck that banged life into existence, are we continous with the idiot hiearchy of speechless apes? Or is there a design to all of this, is there really a God?
And I want to get into that.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel;1340389 wrote: We all live and move and have our being, but " For What?" I mean WHY are we alive? Is it just to live and die? Are we from a result of the most incredible stroke of luck that banged life into existence, are we continous with the idiot hiearchy of speechless apes? Or is there a design to all of this, is there really a God?
And I want to get into that.
Peace.
Well yes, there really is a God, and my mind has been shifted into that gear. Its a mind thing you know, there is an unseen battle going on for your consciousness, the control of it.
And I want to go into that battle.
Peace.
And I want to get into that.
Peace.
Well yes, there really is a God, and my mind has been shifted into that gear. Its a mind thing you know, there is an unseen battle going on for your consciousness, the control of it.
And I want to go into that battle.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
It is said that the mind is a terrible thing to waste, and one of the most deceptive ways to lay it waste, is to blind it of its true orgin. Take away its true beginning, and give it a totally new beginning, start it off in a far different direction, and make it fall in love with this new course. Take away your roots that come from true life, and give those roots to inanimate objects that came from nowhere. Then your roots come from nowhere, then your really always going nowhere.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
When you burn the bridge of your creation, how can you walk across into proper understanding of yourself? I don't see a way when thats done, in fact, this is why humanity is so confused. Imagine if people just started burning the bed they were born in, taking away the honor of that bed, then spending the rest of their lives, convincing themselves that they were not born in that bed. Well this is what many are doing with their roots.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel;1343709 wrote: When you burn the bridge of your creation, how can you walk across into proper understanding of yourself? I don't see a way when thats done, in fact, this is why humanity is so confused. Imagine if people just started burning the bed they were born in, taking away the honor of that bed, then spending the rest of their lives, convincing themselves that they were not born in that bed. Well this is what many are doing with their roots.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
When you deny your orgin, you rape your history. Its like trying to change your race and culture and start living a lie. To deny creation, is doing that exactly. You are burning your birth bed and changing your heritage.
And I want to go into the ramifications of that, on you and your children.
Peace.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
When you deny your orgin, you rape your history. Its like trying to change your race and culture and start living a lie. To deny creation, is doing that exactly. You are burning your birth bed and changing your heritage.
And I want to go into the ramifications of that, on you and your children.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
To turn away from God as creator is to disrupt your true foundation, kind of like taking your shoes off and walking barefoot through a briarpatch, its going to hurt, and hurt your children as they try to follow you. Its strange how some think they can suscessfully " Shake God off", and exclude him. Thats like thinking you can live somewhere where there is no sun. And then giving that pathology to your children.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Many adults don't know what to take on about all this " God stuff", well then how much more confusing then is it to our children? What message are we sending them? What direction are we influncing them, is it away from God?
And is that a step away from the truth?
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
And is that a step away from the truth?
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel;1344172 wrote: Many adults don't know what to take on about all this " God stuff", well then how much more confusing then is it to our children? What message are we sending them? What direction are we influncing them, is it away from God?
And is that a step away from the truth?
And I want to go into that.
Peace.Nope
And is that a step away from the truth?
And I want to go into that.
Peace.Nope
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
The mind of a child is a terrible thing to waste, and to lead them away from God is a waste indeed. You snatch away their birthright to know their God and creator. You handicap their consciousness, and disrupt their Spirit. The growing teen crime is evident of this, as is the growing drug and alcohol abuse amoung them. Its because their spirituality has been snatched from them, and their dark nature has been given card blanche by their role models.
Peace.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel;1344179 wrote: The mind of a child is a terrible thing to waste, and to lead them away from God is a waste indeed. You snatch away their birthright to know their God and creator. You handicap their consciousness, and disrupt their Spirit. The growing teen crime is evident of this, as is the growing drug and alcohol abuse amoung them. Its because their spirituality has been snatched from them, and their dark nature has been given card blanche by their role models.
Peace.Nope!
Peace.Nope!
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
The bible has defintely shifted some gears in my mind. Its uncanny exactness in describing human nature. Its prophecys come true, its message of Hope for all of mankind. So strange how this book came to be. It has 66 sub books in it, and 777,692 words, so its a pretty large volume of titles. Its been translated into over 2,000 languages and is the worlds best seller and most read book by far in history. That should catch anyones attention. Its simply an incredible book of books.
It was the very first book ever printed, by Johannes Gutenbergs printing press in 1454. Incredibly, it has 40 different authors, from over 40 different generations, which is astounding. It was written over a span of 15,000 years on three different continents, Africa, Asia and Europe. It was written at first in three different languages, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Simply stunning! This book ought to shift gears in any mind.
As you consider God, you need to consider this great book, it is NOT humanly possible that this book has been compiled, God had to have been involved.
Peace.
It was the very first book ever printed, by Johannes Gutenbergs printing press in 1454. Incredibly, it has 40 different authors, from over 40 different generations, which is astounding. It was written over a span of 15,000 years on three different continents, Africa, Asia and Europe. It was written at first in three different languages, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Simply stunning! This book ought to shift gears in any mind.
As you consider God, you need to consider this great book, it is NOT humanly possible that this book has been compiled, God had to have been involved.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel;1344442 wrote: The bible has defintely shifted some gears in my mind. Its uncanny exactness in describing human nature. Its prophecys come true, its message of Hope for all of mankind. So strange how this book came to be. It has 66 sub books in it, and 777,692 words, so its a pretty large volume of titles. Its been translated into over 2,000 languages and is the worlds best seller and most read book by far in history. That should catch anyones attention. Its simply an incredible book of books.
It was the very first book ever printed, by Johannes Gutenbergs printing press in 1454. Incredibly, it has 40 different authors, from over 40 different generations, which is astounding. It was written over a span of 15,000 years on three different continents, Africa, Asia and Europe. It was written at first in three different languages, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Simply stunning! This book ought to shift gears in any mind.
As you consider God, you need to consider this great book, it is NOT humanly possible that this book has been compiled, God had to have been involved.
Peace.
One thing that is very hard to do, is erase history. The bible has survived where thousands of books have not. It is the most influential book on earth, bar none! None of its critics or dissentors can do anything with it. Why do you think this book has such undeniable power and influence?
Because its the only book that God has endorsed, thats why.
Peace.
It was the very first book ever printed, by Johannes Gutenbergs printing press in 1454. Incredibly, it has 40 different authors, from over 40 different generations, which is astounding. It was written over a span of 15,000 years on three different continents, Africa, Asia and Europe. It was written at first in three different languages, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Simply stunning! This book ought to shift gears in any mind.
As you consider God, you need to consider this great book, it is NOT humanly possible that this book has been compiled, God had to have been involved.
Peace.
One thing that is very hard to do, is erase history. The bible has survived where thousands of books have not. It is the most influential book on earth, bar none! None of its critics or dissentors can do anything with it. Why do you think this book has such undeniable power and influence?
Because its the only book that God has endorsed, thats why.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
The bible certainly has shifted some gears in my mind, its like a magnet that keeps drawing me back to it. It has a strange way of becomming a magnifying glass, in that it does not change what your looking at, but improves your view of it. It examines and explains human nature far greater than any modern book on physcology, and it gives you a unique peek at God.
God. Thats what this is all about.
If you want to consider God, you simply must consider this book.
So lets consider it, but from some different angles.
Because God is different.
Peace.
God. Thats what this is all about.
If you want to consider God, you simply must consider this book.
So lets consider it, but from some different angles.
Because God is different.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
The bible is the consumate book, no doubt in my mind. To attempt to compare it to any other book, is just in error, it stands alone in a class by itself. If it were a tree, it would be a Redwood, towering over all other trees, its root system dominating the very landscape, choking out all other trees. The bible has literally done this, and has infused itself into the very consciousness of humanity. And these are NOT overtatements , the book is simply incredible. It could be the condemnation or Salvation of all of humanity, and that debate rages on.
Its simply amazing how it can benefit an individual, a family, a group, an orginzation, a city, a state, a government or a world!
And I want to go into such incredible influence-- that is birthed-- from a book!
Peace.
Its simply amazing how it can benefit an individual, a family, a group, an orginzation, a city, a state, a government or a world!
And I want to go into such incredible influence-- that is birthed-- from a book!
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Did you know there are 50 bibles sold every minute that passes! 50 bibles a minute, simply incredible! No other book is anywhere near this. Many feel that its main characther , Jesus, is not recorded in history, another old school redundant misnomer. Jesus is recorded by Josephus, Suetonius, Thallus, Pliny the Younger, The Talmud, Lucian, Celus, Sextus Julius Africanus and Tacitus. And in my view, Archaeology will increase even that list of historians.
The bible is used in many courtrooms to " Swear in testimony", to adhere to the " Truth." Incredible, no other book has even received such a position in law enforcement and the judgement of a people.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
The bible is used in many courtrooms to " Swear in testimony", to adhere to the " Truth." Incredible, no other book has even received such a position in law enforcement and the judgement of a people.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Did you know that one of the standard practices of the Hotel and Motel industries, is to place a bible in all their rooms? Do you know and understand what kind of honor and respect that shows for this great book? They are trying to please their customers, make them comfortable and relaxed. They want them to enjoy theirselves. The one book they give them to read, is the bible. A great marketing strategy , they can't miss with it, its the worlds best seller, and the worlds most read book.
Peace.
Peace.
-
freethinkingthuthseeker
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm
The Bible shifted some Gears in my mind.
Mickiel;1344442 wrote: The bible has defintely shifted some gears in my mind. Its uncanny exactness in describing human nature. Its prophecys come true, its message of Hope for all of mankind. So strange how this book came to be. It has 66 sub books in it, and 777,692 words, so its a pretty large volume of titles. Its been translated into over 2,000 languages and is the worlds best seller and most read book by far in history. That should catch anyones attention. Its simply an incredible book of books.
It was the very first book ever printed, by Johannes Gutenbergs printing press in 1454. Incredibly, it has 40 different authors, from over 40 different generations, which is astounding. It was written over a span of 15,000 years on three different continents, Africa, Asia and Europe. It was written at first in three different languages, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Simply stunning! This book ought to shift gears in any mind.
As you consider God, you need to consider this great book, it is NOT humanly possible that this book has been compiled, God had to have been involved.
Peace.
Hi Mickiel
long time no talk
I am so pleased you appreciate the Bible but do question the idea that it took 15,000 years to write. How do you come to that figure?
I am genuinely curious.
Bear in mind that the new testament is established as having been completed within a maximum of 200 years of Jesus's physical resurrection and ascension to heaven and also
What do you think that Issiah means by the name referring to Jesus as Emmanuel?
this is not the name but a title as that is how the Bible refers to names and means "God with us"?
Furthermore, there is also a single verse in Issiah 48 that refers to God the Father, The son and the Holy spirit all in one verse.
I also note that in my last post (see p54) you did not refer to the line in John which I underlined for you?
may I ask why?
God bless you
k
It was the very first book ever printed, by Johannes Gutenbergs printing press in 1454. Incredibly, it has 40 different authors, from over 40 different generations, which is astounding. It was written over a span of 15,000 years on three different continents, Africa, Asia and Europe. It was written at first in three different languages, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Simply stunning! This book ought to shift gears in any mind.
As you consider God, you need to consider this great book, it is NOT humanly possible that this book has been compiled, God had to have been involved.
Peace.
Hi Mickiel
long time no talk
I am so pleased you appreciate the Bible but do question the idea that it took 15,000 years to write. How do you come to that figure?
I am genuinely curious.
Bear in mind that the new testament is established as having been completed within a maximum of 200 years of Jesus's physical resurrection and ascension to heaven and also
What do you think that Issiah means by the name referring to Jesus as Emmanuel?
this is not the name but a title as that is how the Bible refers to names and means "God with us"?
Furthermore, there is also a single verse in Issiah 48 that refers to God the Father, The son and the Holy spirit all in one verse.
I also note that in my last post (see p54) you did not refer to the line in John which I underlined for you?
may I ask why?
God bless you
k