New from Canada

recovering conservative · Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:41 pm

Hi! I'm just an average blue collar, married, middle-aged guy with kids that are just starting to make their way in the world (and that's what scares me the most); and I've spent a lot of time thinking about and discussing political issues, but like the name might suggest, I'm finding myself at age 51 having doubts about and needing to re-examine my political beliefs on every front - from economics, to social policies to military and foreign policy issues - everything that I thought made me a rock-solid conservative up until fairly recently, I'm finding myself questioning all of it and wondering where I'll end up on the political spectrum!

The last forum I was posting on regularly, does not have much tolerance for people who change their opinions, and the "debate" has degenerated into shouting slogans and repeating personal attacks that have nothing to do with the issues. The political discussion forums here seem to be civil and respectful in comparison.

But, I may explore other forums and get away from politics for awhile! After our national election and U.S. election marathon that is finally winding up, with its constant assault of campaign commercials and non-stop election news, I may hide out from politics and explore other topics of interest.

There are so many sub-forums here, I might lose track of some topics. But I guess I'll figure out the system here with a little time!

Odie · Post by **Odie** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:45 pm

Hi and a huge welcome to my neighbour an hours drive from me!:)

debate here all you like, most of us do!:D

Canadian eh, cool!:guitarist

Post by **spot** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:50 pm

Blimey. I've been to Hamilton. I rather liked it but it didn't seem at all like any other part of Canada. It felt rather more like England. Did someone tell me it was a steelmaking town?

Welcome to ForumGarden. People do change their minds here sometimes but getting angry rarely impresses people.

recovering conservative · Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:55 pm

Odie;1043536 wrote: Hi and a huge welcome to my neighbour an hours drive from me!:)

debate here all you like, most of us do!:D

Canadian eh, cool!:guitarist

Thanks Odie! But I'm not going to guarantee that I will jump right into political debates yet. I'll take a look at some other topics first!

recovering conservative · Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:06 pm

spot;1043540 wrote: Blimey. I've been to Hamilton. I rather liked it but it didn't seem at all like any other part of Canada. It felt rather more like England. Did someone tell me it was a steelmaking town?

Welcome to ForumGarden. People do change their minds here sometimes but getting angry rarely impresses people.

Yes, we have a couple of big steel mills in town, and that used to be the focal point of the local economy; but now our city is rusting out as heavy industry cuts back and closes plants, so there is not much left here for our young people, and if they stay here, they likely have a long commute down the highway to work somewhere in the Metro Toronto area or they have to pack up and leave, and head out west to Alberta or British Columbia.

I'm not too familiar with the economy in England, except that I'm told that all of the economic growth has been in the south, around London, and the recession never really ended further north in Wales and Scotland.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:11 pm

Welcome RC----------------Nothing wrong with changing opinions.

Post by **spot** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:17 pm

recovering conservative;1043549 wrote: I'm not too familiar with the economy in England, except that I'm told that all of the economic growth has been in the south, around London, and the recession never really ended further north in Wales and Scotland.You should see Newcastle, for example. It cleaned up wonderfully and the whole area became prosperous. Where we have a region that's not doing well we make regional business grants to attract outside investment.

recovering conservative · Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:37 pm

spot;1043557 wrote: You should see Newcastle, for example. It cleaned up wonderfully and the whole area became prosperous. Where we have a region that's not doing well we make regional business grants to attract outside investment.

Sounds like a good idea!

Our problems here are similar to the stories of many of the cities in America's Rust Belt, around the Great Lakes, which became complacent by collecting easy tax revenues from heavy industry. In Hamilton, when Industry started going into decline, local politicians just raised property taxes and commercial taxes to make up the shortfall in revenue! It's only been in the last ten years or so, that they have come to terms with the fact that tax policy was a major impediment to attracting new business into the area. Now, all we can do is hope it's not too late to turn things around!

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:23 am

Hiya RC, Welcome to FG. :-6

recovering conservative · Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:36 am

abbey;1043620 wrote: Hiya RC, Welcome to FG. :-6

Thanks Abbey!

I can't help noticing so far that England seems to be well represented on the forums here.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:30 am

I've spent a lot of time thinking about and discussing political issues, but like the name might suggest, I'm finding myself at age 51 having doubts about and needing to re-examine my political beliefs on every front - from economics, to social policies to military and foreign policy issues - everything that I thought made me a rock-solid conservative up until fairly recently, I'm finding myself questioning all of it and wondering where I'll end up on the political spectrum!

Questioning is good.

Post by **spot** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:31 am

recovering conservative;1043625 wrote: Thanks Abbey!

I can't help noticing so far that England seems to be well represented on the forums here.

We're an almost entirely ex-colonial site together with generous helpings from the Motherland. We've a few Texans as well.

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:32 am

recovering conservative;1043625 wrote: Thanks Abbey!

I can't help noticing so far that England seems to be well represented on the forums here.Depends what time of day you come on FG I suppose.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:54 am

spot;1043653 wrote: We're an almost entirely ex-colonial site together with generous helpings from the Motherland. We've a few Texans as well.

Texans and colonials........

Dont threaten the new guy spock.

Hey new guy, youre from Canada Im from Minnesota. I feel your pain.

recovering conservative · Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:56 am

Time for a re-introduction it seems!

It's been almost two years since I joined FG, and yes I got sidetracked and forgot all about this place until I received a birthday reminder email yesterday. Recently, I found forums I liked over at Thoughts.com, and for reasons that I don't understand, the brains there decided last week to change everything and obliterated the old forums. So, now that I have no other forums to distract me, I can give FG a serious try.

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:37 am

recovering conservative;1336548 wrote: Time for a re-introduction it seems!

It's been almost two years since I joined FG, and yes I got sidetracked and forgot all about this place until I received a birthday reminder email yesterday. Recently, I found forums I liked over at Thoughts.com, and for reasons that I don't understand, the brains there decided last week to change everything and obliterated the old forums. So, now that I have no other forums to distract me, I can give FG a serious try.

Welcome to FG:-6

I agree with you about Thoughts. I'm still a member there, but don't post anymore. What a mess they made of the site. What are they thinking??

Think that they lost a lot of good members

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:29 am

recovering conservative;1043625 wrote: Thanks Abbey!

I can't help noticing so far that England seems to be well represented on the forums here.

Though as always the real quality is to be found north of the border, bit like canada and the United states really, it's always better up north.

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:02 am

recovering conservative;1043549 wrote: Yes, we have a couple of big steel mills in town, and that used to be the focal point of the local economy; but now our city is rusting out as heavy industry cuts back and closes plants, so there is not much left here for our young people, and if they stay here, they likely have a long commute down the highway to work somewhere in the Metro Toronto area or they have to pack up and leave, and head out west to Alberta or British Columbia.

I'm not too familiar with the economy in England, except that I'm told that all of the economic growth has been in the south, around London, and the recession never really ended further north in Wales and Scotland.

Hi RC and welcome back! The area of Ohio I live in is suffering greatly from the closing of our steel mills.

recovering conservative · Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:23 pm

Kathy Ellen;1336563 wrote: Welcome to FG:-6

I agree with you about Thoughts. I'm still a member there, but don't post anymore. What a mess they made of the site. What are they thinking??

Think that they lost a lot of good members

Thank you! I didn't notice your name at Thoughts, but I was only there for a couple of months before they came up with this Thoughts 3.0 scheme! I was using the name "Hammertown" which is the local nickname of my home city of the last nine years - Hamilton, Ontario.

I am really bummed out about what they did there, because Thoughts seemed to be just what I was looking for! When I started into online discussion forums a few years ago, I was a doctrinaire right winger, and I soon discovered that if you start having 2nd thoughts and changing your mind about things, you are no longer welcome in a club where everybody has the same general philosophy. So, I wanted something where this was a better mix of opinions, and I had trouble finding good forums because sometimes I am more interested in talking about politics, and then get tired of it and want to move on to other topics. On political forums, it's all about politics and government, so having a mix of different forums like Thoughts, or here at Forum Garden, is a better fit for me.

Thanks again for the welcome; hope to hear from you again as I find my way through the forums here:)

recovering conservative · Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:32 pm

Peg;1336602 wrote: Hi RC and welcome back! The area of Ohio I live in is suffering greatly from the closing of our steel mills.

Thank you! I know what you're going through in Ohio; and here on the other side of the Lake, in Hamilton, it's pretty much the same thing unfortunately! This is a steel town where both of its large steel mills are on life support! And, needless to say, the surrounding industries that depended on the steel plants, are either closing down or seriously cutting production. For people like me, who have the seniority -- we are secure until retirement; but there's nothing here for our children or to attract new business into the area.

The latest hit has been our dollar, which is seriously over-valued by the dirty oil they are extracting from tar sands out west. Canada is moving down the road to becoming a typical petro-state -- where there is no economy outside of the oil industry! The present trends will see all of the industry in Ontario and Quebec (which used to drive the Canadian economy) closing down. Wish I had better news, but the honest truth is that the future is as bleak here as it is for the Great Lake states!

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:44 pm

So, in the two years since you first joined has your position moved on?

Have you reverted to your conservative background or moved further down the spectrum?

recovering conservative · Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:48 am

Bryn Mawr;1337083 wrote: So, in the two years since you first joined has your position moved on?
If anything, further left than I was two years ago!

Have you reverted to your conservative background or moved further down the spectrum?

When I first joined here, I had been a regular on a conservative forum for about four or five years, and noticed that I was starting to have 2nd thoughts about a lot of conservative/libertarian wisdom -- such as supply-side economics; that a "level playing field" can actually exist, and negate the need for supporting those who aren't succeeding; discovering how globalization policies have been used, and are still being drafted to turn Third World nations back into colonies with no independent economic power; and how the biggest crisis today -- climate change, cannot be dealt with until governments are strong enough to resist the reactionary tactics of the big oil and coal companies. Needless to say, I didn't get a friendly reception for the most part by conservatives who never change their minds and figured I was lying when I first joined the group.

The way I see it now, especially in light of Republican and Tea Party candidate ads on TV, is that conservatism and libertarianism are ideologies that have outlived their usefulness. Our world today is overcrowded, running out of natural resources, and facing one natural disaster after another thanks to climate change, and we can no longer afford the type of globalized capitalism we have today, that is energy intensive and depends on continual economic growth.

Our world isn't going to grow larger to accommodate us; so political ideologies that suited a time when the world was unpolluted, there were wide open spaces and abundant natural resources, are out of synch with the times we are now living in. The people who want to carry on with business-as-usual are living in denial about the calamity that is facing our children and grandchildren during this century! So, I guess all this makes me a leftwing extremist these days.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:09 am

recovering conservative;1337182 wrote: If anything, further left than I was two years ago!

When I first joined here, I had been a regular on a conservative forum for about four or five years, and noticed that I was starting to have 2nd thoughts about a lot of conservative/libertarian wisdom -- such as supply-side economics; that a "level playing field" can actually exist, and negate the need for supporting those who aren't succeeding; discovering how globalization policies have been used, and are still being drafted to turn Third World nations back into colonies with no independent economic power; and how the biggest crisis today -- climate change, cannot be dealt with until governments are strong enough to resist the reactionary tactics of the big oil and coal companies. Needless to say, I didn't get a friendly reception for the most part by conservatives who never change their minds and figured I was lying when I first joined the group.

The way I see it now, especially in light of Republican and Tea Party candidate ads on TV, is that conservatism and libertarianism are ideologies that have outlived their usefulness. Our world today is overcrowded, running out of natural resources, and facing one natural disaster after another thanks to climate change, and we can no longer afford the type of globalized capitalism we have today, that is energy intensive and depends on continual economic growth.

Our world isn't going to grow larger to accommodate us; so political ideologies that suited a time when the world was unpolluted, there were wide open spaces and abundant natural resources, are out of synch with the times we are now living in. The people who want to carry on with business-as-usual are living in denial about the calamity that is facing our children and grandchildren during this century! So, I guess all this makes me a leftwing extremist these days.

Only in America - that's fairly mainstream over here.

Anyway, thanks for the update - it's interesting to see the evolution of a recovering conservative

recovering conservative · Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:35 am

Bryn Mawr;1337186 wrote: Only in America - that's fairly mainstream over here.

Anyway, thanks for the update - it's interesting to see the evolution of a recovering conservative

Thanks! I was intending to get back sooner, but I haven't had time to surf the web for the last couple of days.

The media in Canada has been changing over the last 10 or 15 years. I started going on discussion forums eight or nine years ago, because not many shared my rightwing views. Maybe it was hanging out with the fans of Limbaugh,O'Reilly, and Ann Coulter, started giving me 2nd thoughts!

The big break for me was likely moving from climate change skeptic to convinced that it is a crisis that governments are unwilling or unable to deal with.

In Canada, we are becoming more and more dependent on the dirtiest, most CO2 intensive oil production -- Tar Sands; and this industry is now the tail wagging the dog of Canadian politics. And, it is becoming more and more apparent that our media is increasingly dominated by global warming deniers, who are no doubt generously funded by the industry that wants to increase tar sands developments. The politics and media in Canada is looking more and more like the U.S. every day!

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:04 pm

recovering conservative;1336658 wrote: Thank you! I didn't notice your name at Thoughts, but I was only there for a couple of months before they came up with this Thoughts 3.0 scheme! I was using the name "Hammertown" which is the local nickname of my home city of the last nine years - Hamilton, Ontario.

I am really bummed out about what they did there, because Thoughts seemed to be just what I was looking for! When I started into online discussion forums a few years ago, I was a doctrinaire right winger, and I soon discovered that if you start having 2nd thoughts and changing your mind about things, you are no longer welcome in a club where everybody has the same general philosophy. So, I wanted something where this was a better mix of opinions, and I had trouble finding good forums because sometimes I am more interested in talking about politics, and then get tired of it and want to move on to other topics. On political forums, it's all about politics and government, so having a mix of different forums like Thoughts, or here at Forum Garden, is a better fit for me.

Thanks again for the welcome; hope to hear from you again as I find my way through the forums here:)

Hi RC,

Sorry, just noticed that you responded to me. I have cousins who live in Hamilton but haven't seen them since we were kids.

My name at Thoughts was dunlewy as Kathy Ellen was already taken. I didn't post much...only read. I was only friends there with Rowdy, Darlin and Paddystyle.

Seems it's only blogs there now...couldn't find any forums. What a shame. Don't know what Ben was thinking...What a dopey thing to do. It seemed like a popular site....now everyone has moved onto different forums.

Take care and hope you like FG.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:05 pm

Welcome back.

I usually vote conservative but only because I think if we have a government it should be run like a business. I'm personally against the formation of political parties. Forcing people to group think can't be good for the nation.

recovering conservative · Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:25 pm

Kathy Ellen;1337869 wrote: Hi RC,

Sorry, just noticed that you responded to me. I have cousins who live in Hamilton but haven't seen them since we were kids.

My name at Thoughts was dunlewy as Kathy Ellen was already taken. I didn't post much...only read. I was only friends there with Rowdy, Darlin and Paddystyle.

Seems it's only blogs there now...couldn't find any forums. What a shame. Don't know what Ben was thinking...What a dopey thing to do. It seemed like a popular site....now everyone has moved onto different forums.

Take care and hope you like FG.

Hello again Kathy Ellen. I'm not sure if I came across your posts on the old Thoughts. I was only there for a few weeks, but I was active on a few of the forums when they were still up. I'm not sure how I got distracted and stopped posting here two years ago -- there's a lot of things about FG forums that I liked, but I guess my views on a lot of subjects were changing, and I didn't feel like getting into debates.

The only one of your friends that I recall by name is Rowdy; and something may have happened with him around the time of the big meltdown -- Shelgarr started a thread inquiring about his whereabouts, and why his posts were deleted.....as far as I know, she didn't get a response.

recovering conservative · Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:02 am

koan;1337953 wrote: Welcome back.

I usually vote conservative but only because I think if we have a government it should be run like a business. I'm personally against the formation of political parties. Forcing people to group think can't be good for the nation.

Hi koan! Five or six years ago I would have agreed with you; now I would say that trying to run government like a business is the wrong thing to try to do, because businesses are in business to make money, not provide services for all. We're seeing the results of fees for essential services down in Tennessee -- where firefighters let a house burn down, that also killed the owner's pets, all because he either forgot or was not willing to pay an annual service charge for the fire dept.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:14 pm

koan;1337953 wrote: Welcome back.

I usually vote conservative but only because I think if we have a government it should be run like a business. I'm personally against the formation of political parties. Forcing people to group think can't be good for the nation.AMEN!!

Good to see you here, RC. I remember Hammertown from Thoughts. FG is where I started, and the only forum I visited for several years. You won't see the cage-fighting here that's common in some other forums. I hope you enjoy it.

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:43 pm

recovering conservative;1337958 wrote: Hi koan! Five or six years ago I would have agreed with you; now I would say that trying to run government like a business is the wrong thing to try to do, because businesses are in business to make money, not provide services for all. We're seeing the results of fees for essential services down in Tennessee -- where firefighters let a house burn down, that also killed the owner's pets, all because he either forgot or was not willing to pay an annual service charge for the fire dept.

I feel awful for the pets, but IMO the man let his house burn down, himself. I'm willing to change that opinion if someone can show me he'd been paying for years and truly forgot this one time, however. But if you have that many pets, you should have been able to come up with $75 a year.

They do need to make that part of a county tax rather than an option.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:51 pm

recovering conservative;1337958 wrote: Hi koan! Five or six years ago I would have agreed with you; now I would say that trying to run government like a business is the wrong thing to try to do, because businesses are in business to make money, not provide services for all. We're seeing the results of fees for essential services down in Tennessee -- where firefighters let a house burn down, that also killed the owner's pets, all because he either forgot or was not willing to pay an annual service charge for the fire dept.
Specific incidents can make a person hate the government but if another party was in power incidents still occur, they make take another nature or it can be the same damn thing.

The reason I don't like parties is that constituents split on whether they're voting for the person or the party which confuses how the voters feel about all the issues. In Canada we don't even get to vote directly on the prime minister and there is no proportional representation. I see all political parties like street gangs.

recovering conservative · Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:51 pm

flopstock;1338102 wrote: I feel awful for the pets, but IMO the man let his house burn down, himself. I'm willing to change that opinion if someone can show me he'd been paying for years and truly forgot this one time, however. But if you have that many pets, you should have been able to come up with $75 a year.
Personally, I don't care if he forgot to pay, or didn't want to pay; letting the house burn down could have led to a wider fire that burned down more homes......that's a big part of the reason why they did away with private fire companies years ago and made fire prevention a shared service.

It's deliberate cruelty to animals to allow the cats and dogs to burn to death inside that home! If there were children inside, would the firemen have refused to try to rescue them or put out the fire? If so, why should that make the situation different? Using pure Randian, Objectivist logic, no exceptions should have been made even if there were human lives at stake.

They do need to make that part of a county tax rather than an option.
Now why haven't they thought of this? The mayor says that they need the fees to pay for fire service, so why aren't they part of the tax bill?

recovering conservative · Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:56 pm

Accountable;1338100 wrote: AMEN!!

Good to see you here, RC. I remember Hammertown from Thoughts. FG is where I started, and the only forum I visited for several years. You won't see the cage-fighting here that's common in some other forums. I hope you enjoy it.

Hi, I noticed some of your posts here, and I think I have time now to cut in on some of the political discussions. Even before the shutdown at Thoughts, I was having trouble posting during the last two or three days before the closure, and I didn't have a chance to finish a long reply post I started on. When they re-booted, all of the thread comments were gone!

recovering conservative · Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:04 pm

koan;1338113 wrote: Specific incidents can make a person hate the government but if another party was in power incidents still occur, they make take another nature or it can be the same damn thing.

The reason I don't like parties is that constituents split on whether they're voting for the person or the party which confuses how the voters feel about all the issues. In Canada we don't even get to vote directly on the prime minister and there is no proportional representation. I see all political parties like street gangs.

With all of the problems the U.S. is having with huge dumps of corporate cash into the campaigns, I think we are doing slightly better up here! I don't know whether it makes much difference not having a direct vote for PM -- most people are well aware that the party leaders tell the MP's what to do, and a vote for them is a vote for the leader.

I wanted proportional representation here in Ontario, when it was placed on the ballot a few years ago; but the Liberals only offered the referendum because of a campaign promise, and had no interest in supporting it. They produced very little pre-election material explaining it to the voters, and did nothing to counter the misinformation by opponents.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:34 am

flopstock;1338102 wrote: I feel awful for the pets, but IMO the man let his house burn down, himself. I'm willing to change that opinion if someone can show me he'd been paying for years and truly forgot this one time, however. But if you have that many pets, you should have been able to come up with $75 a year.

They do need to make that part of a county tax rather than an option.

recovering conservative;1338133 wrote: Personally, I don't care if he forgot to pay, or didn't want to pay; letting the house burn down could have led to a wider fire that burned down more homes......that's a big part of the reason why they did away with private fire companies years ago and made fire prevention a shared service.

It's deliberate cruelty to animals to allow the cats and dogs to burn to death inside that home! If there were children inside, would the firemen have refused to try to rescue them or put out the fire? If so, why should that make the situation different? Using pure Randian, Objectivist logic, no exceptions should have been made even if there were human lives at stake.

Now why haven't they thought of this? The mayor says that they need the fees to pay for fire service, so why aren't they part of the tax bill?
To avoid derailing this thread, I started a new one: http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/curre ... ost1338165

recovering conservative · Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:54 am

Accountable;1338166 wrote: To avoid derailing this thread, I started a new one: http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/curre ... ost1338165
Thanks! I was looking for an opportunity to discuss this issue, because it encapsulates a lot of what I see as wrong with stripping away government services -- but, I wasn't intending to get into it here.