The Downside Of Money

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:42 am

People steal for it. People kill for it. People divorce because of it. People betray for it. People lie for it. People cheat for it. People fear the loss of it. People become obsessed with it. People lose faith because of it. People judge because of it. People cry over it.

Much of the World's problems have their root cause in money.

If the World worked together to make sure every resource went towards making each person healthy, happy, and stable, we could eliminate these problems from Humanity.

If we cared enough for every person in the World to make sure that no one lacked in the items necessary for their survival, than we could eliminate this plague from the World.

Everybody deserves to be happy UNTIL THEY MAKE CHOICES WHICH EFFECT OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES IN A NEGATIVE MANNER PERIOD.

If everybody had things in their lives which made them happier and more positive, than inevitably there would be less negativity in the World. It's a simple concept that we Human Beings can't seem to grasp and we just won't work together to get our **** together.

Only when someone attempts to take from another person's happiness should they be dealt with accordingly.

Let the people of the World live in peace! And we have an obligation to work together to protect that peace for the rest of our God given lives!

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:26 am

"For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." (1 Timothy 6:10) KJV (The King James Bible)

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:35 am

“A man who has riches without understanding is like the beasts that perish. –Psalm 49:12-14; 20

“But man, despite his riches, does not endure; he is like the beasts that perish. This is the fate of those who trust in themselves¦death will feed on them. Psalm 49:12-14; 20

I Timothy 6:17-19: “Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

Proverbs 23:4; “Do not wear yourself out to get rich;

have the wisdom to show restraint.

Proverbs 11:4; “Wealth is worthless in the day of wrath,

but righteousness delivers from death.

Ecclesiastes 5:10; “Whoever loves money never has money enough;

whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income.

Matthew 16:26 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

--------

50 Cent: "Get Rich Or Die Tryin"

Surely 50 Cent didn't get the message.

Proverbs 16:25; “There is a way that seems right to a man,

but in the end it leads to death.

Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:23-24)

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:36 am

TruthBringer;1339155 wrote: People steal for it. People kill for it. People divorce because of it. People betray for it. People lie for it. People cheat for it. People fear the loss of it. People become obsessed with it. People lose faith because of it. People judge because of it. People cry over it.

Much of the World's problems have their root cause in money.

If the World worked together to make sure every resource went towards making each person healthy, happy, and stable, we could eliminate these problems from Humanity.

If we cared enough for every person in the World to make sure that no one lacked in the items necessary for their survival, than we could eliminate this plague from the World.

Everybody deserves to be happy UNTIL THEY MAKE CHOICES WHICH EFFECT OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES IN A NEGATIVE MANNER PERIOD.

If everybody had things in their lives which made them happier and more positive, than inevitably there would be less negativity in the World. It's a simple concept that we Human Beings can't seem to grasp and we just won't work together to get our **** together.

Only when someone attempts to take from another person's happiness should they be dealt with accordingly.

Let the people of the World live in peace! And we have an obligation to work together to protect that peace for the rest of our God given lives!

I beg to differ-----------In each of your examples you use the word PEOPLE in conjunction with money. It's not money that is the problem, It's PEOPLE and the root causes of the world's problems is PEOPLE not money. If we did away with PEOPLE there would be no problems eh? :-3

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:39 am

along-for-the-ride;1339159 wrote: "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." (1 Timothy 6:10) KJV (The King James Bible)

I posted this because many people misquote it and say "Money is the root of all evil."

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:42 am

Lon;1339169 wrote: I beg to differ-----------In each of your examples you use the word PEOPLE in conjunction with money. It's not money that is the problem, It's PEOPLE and the root causes of the world's problems is PEOPLE not money. If we did away with PEOPLE there would be no problems eh? :-3

Do away with money first. Give everyone enough food and water to live their full lives. Provide them with access to REAL health care, a safe environment, and a few toys for their entertainment (such as internet access, electricity, running water, etc.). Keep an honorable justice and police system in place for security, and make sure that everyone that is able to be is involved in some way in the entire process.

And then come back on here and spout that BS. I'm tired of that age old argument. Easy for you to say when we've never had a World Wide System that did any of those things for everyone.

The World WOULD be a better place. People WOULD be happier. Jesus was right.

Get rid of that thing called MONEY that we don't ****ing really need and that we never did. Get rid of the lie we have been sold. God didn't make the World with a currency system in place. Man created it because he wanted to get one over on his neighbor. And he justifies this by saying that "if you work for what you want, you will get paid equally for it". Paid equally for it? The hardest working people on the planet are the ones who get paid the least!

Ever heard of slave labor?

It's all bullshit. The argument doesn't stand.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:00 am

TruthBringer;1339172 wrote: Do away with money first. Give everyone enough food and water to live their full lives. Provide them with access to REAL health care, a safe environment, and a few toys for their entertainment (such as internet access, electricity, running water, etc.). Keep an honorable justice and police system in place for security, and make sure that everyone that is able to be is involved in some way in the entire process.

And then come back on here and spout that BS. I'm tired of that age old argument. Easy for you to say when we've never had a World Wide System that did any of those things for everyone.

The World WOULD be a better place. People WOULD be happier. Jesus was right.

Get rid of that thing called MONEY that we don't ****ing really need and that we never did. Get rid of the lie we have been sold. God didn't make the World with a currency system in place. Man created it because he wanted to get one over on his neighbor. And he justifies this by saying that "if you work for what you want, you will get paid equally for it". Paid equally for it? The hardest working people on the planet are the ones who get payed the least!

Ever heard of slave labor?

It's all bullshit. The argument doesn't stand.

Your premise is naive--------some people, being the imperfect souls that we are, would want to have more food than their neighbor or more toys. Some would fight and kill to acquire more of something and it doesn't have to be money. To have the perfect world or society that you envision you would have to have perfect people and that just ain't gonna happen. Surely religious folk understand that.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:01 am

I forgot to add that people sell their bodies for it. And in some cases, people's bodies are sold against their wills for it.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:02 am

F-ck money. That's what I say. And unfortunately until things change, I will have to deal with it just like you will.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:03 am

Lon;1339178 wrote: Some would fight and kill to acquire more of something.

And those people would be dealt with accordingly. And I guarantee you it wouldn't be as many people doing that for those things I listed as there are now for the money to even be able to get access to only a few of those things I listed. People killing for food? Not if everyone was given an ample amount evenly that would get each of them through their lives. People stealing for internet access when everyone already has it? Doubtful. People crying over their neighbor and them having access to the same amount of electricity? I doubt it. People betraying each other over the fact that each person has access to REAL health care? I don't think so.

I can shut down each of those arguments one by one.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:11 am

TruthBringer;1339182 wrote: And those people would be dealt with accordingly. And I guarantee you it wouldn't be as many people doing that for those things I listed as there are now for the money to even be able to get access to only a few of those things I listed. People killing for food? Not if everyone was given an ample amount evenly that would get each of them through their lives. People stealing for internet access when everyone already has it? Doubtful. People crying over their neighbor and them having access to the same amount of electricity? I doubt it. People betraying each other over the fact that each person has access to REAL health care? I don't think so.

I can shut down each of those arguments one by one.

Have you ever seen a pack of wolves fighting over a dead carcass when there is more than enough for all? People are not much different. Your expectations of your fellow man defy reality.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:12 am

Lon;1339188 wrote: Have you ever seen a pack of wolves fighting over a dead carcass when there is more than enough for all. People are not much different. Your expectations of your fellow man defy reality.

Have you ever seen a wolf design the sketch for a building and then watch it become a reality?

We are not much different than wolves? You must be out of your mind Lon.

Each species of creature on this planet is in many ways a Universe apart from one another.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:15 am

Have you ever seen a person design the sketch for a building and then watch it become a reality without the benefit of money?

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:20 am

TruthBringer;1339189 wrote: Have you ever seen a wolf design the sketch for a building and then watch it become a reality?

We are not much different than wolves? You must be out of your mind Lon.

Each species of creature on this planet is in many ways a Universe apart from one another.

Surely you have seen pictures of rioters after a natural disaster, fighting over food, water, STUFF. In many respects not much different than a pack of wild animals.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:22 am

Lon;1339193 wrote: Surely you have seen pictures of rioters after a natural disaster, fighting over food, water, STUFF. In many respects not much different than a pack of wild animals.

And what are those people who are rioting hoping to achieve? If they were provided for those things even during a natural disaster....would there be any need for them to riot?

The main difference I see between animals and Humans is that Human Beings are the only ones who will work to preserve another species where as any other species of creature of the planet simply can not and will not do such a thing.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:23 am

Accountable;1339192 wrote: Have you ever seen a person design the sketch for a building and then watch it become a reality without the benefit of money?

Have I seen it? No. Has it happened? Yes.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:23 am

I actually know how to eliminate money and bring about the Utopia you are talking about:

I believe its possible, but mankind would never enter the agreement voluntarily. Here's what I think the prerequisites would be with a nod to Ira Levin:

For a Utopia to be created, it must be based in reality.

1. Get rid of all national governments, and replace them with a centralized base of co-functioning Series Supercomputers, Give them autonomous decision-making ability, input all world resources and problems, rely on them for allocation. If there were a drought in Uganda, and a surplus of wheat in Russia, then the computers would ship the wheat to the famine.

If any country declares war, the Supercomputers could mobilize the resources of the entire planet to crush the rebellion...but that would be a last resort, to be used only if the "treatments" don't work. (See below)

2. Get rid of all national boundaries; replace it with "The Family" in reference to all mankind. For example, "The Family's colonies on the moon have been very productive this year."

3. Genetically shape all of mankind to a common look. (Preferably, a slightly Chinese-eyed, medium build, tan skin colored race.) No more racism.

4. Test children for abilities constantly during growth, let the Supercomputer, let's call it "Unicomp" or "Uni" for short, decide the best use of their talents for the betterment of the Family and assign them to their specialties at adulthood. No more unemployment.

5. Give each human being "treatments" once a month through an infusion disc placed on the arm. This infusion disc would pass chemicals directly through the skin. Included would be a birth control chemical, an exfoliant to get rid of the need for shaving, and assorted neurological chemicals to keep the people "happy and satisfied" and control excess, irrational emotion.

6. Put a bracelet on each persons arm. To go anywhere, you must touch the bracelet to a scanner, and receive permission from the computer first. This prevents unnecessary waste of resources and energy. You could claim a vacation occasionally, but only if the computer could allocate the resources and could spare you from your job. All efforts would be directed towards the common goal.

7. As a back-up system, counselors with portable laptops would oversee all members of the family regularly to look for aberrant behavior. Children would be taught to immediately contact one of these counselors if they saw any unusual behavior.

8. All competitive sports will be removed, since competition itself would have to be removed. Why compete, when you are assigned everything you need for life? Instead, mandatory group exercises will be required for the entire population every morning.

9. Since old age is a drain on resources, and the investment of resources and materials in their existence no longer is less than the returns, then they must be eliminated. The average age of life should be terminated at around 72. The computer will determine the age of death, and it could increase, as medicine gets better.

So there you have it...everything you are asking for. No worries, permanent employment, no corporations, no racism, no war, no strife, no nationalism, no corruption, only the shining Family working towards mankind's future in the stars.

Like it?

Yeah...I don't either.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:28 am

Saint_;1339196 wrote: I actually know how to eliminate money and bring about the Utopia you are talking about:

I believe its possible, but mankind would never enter the agreement voluntarily. Here's what I think the prerequisites would be with a nod to Ira Levin:

For a Utopia to be created, it must be based in reality.

1. Get rid of all national governments, and replace them with a centralized base of co-functioning Series Supercomputers, Give them autonomous decision-making ability, input all world resources and problems, rely on them for allocation. If there were a drought in Uganda, and a surplus of wheat in Russia, then the computers would ship the wheat to the famine.

If any country declares war, the Supercomputers could mobilize the resources of the entire planet to crush the rebellion...but that would be a last resort, to be used only if the "treatments" don't work. (See below)

2. Get rid of all national boundaries; replace it with "The Family" in reference to all mankind. For example, "The Family's colonies on the moon have been very productive this year."

3. Genetically shape all of mankind to a common look. (Preferably, a slightly Chinese-eyed, medium build, tan skin colored race.) No more racism.

4. Test children for abilities constantly during growth, let the Supercomputer, let's call it "Unicomp" or "Uni" for short, decide the best use of their talents for the betterment of the Family and assign them to their specialties at adulthood. No more unemployment.

5. Give each human being "treatments" once a month through an infusion disc placed on the arm. This infusion disc would pass chemicals directly through the skin. Included would be a birth control chemical, an exfoliant to get rid of the need for shaving, and assorted neurological chemicals to keep the people "happy and satisfied" and control excess, irrational emotion.

6. Put a bracelet on each persons arm. To go anywhere, you must touch the bracelet to a scanner, and receive permission from the computer first. This prevents unnecessary waste of resources and energy. You could claim a vacation occasionally, but only if the computer could allocate the resources and could spare you from your job. All efforts would be directed towards the common goal.

7. As a back-up system, counselors with portable laptops would oversee all members of the family regularly to look for aberrant behavior. Children would be taught to immediately contact one of these counselors if they saw any unusual behavior.

8. All competitive sports will be removed, since competition itself would have to be removed. Why compete, when you are assigned everything you need for life? Instead, mandatory group exercises will be required for the entire population every morning.

9. Since old age is a drain on resources, and the investment of resources and materials in their existence no longer is less than the returns, then they must be eliminated. The average age of life should be terminated at around 72. The computer will determine the age of death, and it could increase, as medicine gets better.

So there you have it...everything you are asking for. No worries, permanent employment, no corporations, no racism, no war, no strife, no nationalism, no corruption, only the shining Family working towards mankind's future in the stars.

Like it?

Yeah...I don't either.

Aside from changing the skin color and making it mandatory for everyone to have birth control (who would ever have a child? When would that process stop?) I see no problem with the rest of your ideas.

As long as there was truly no one running the show other than the computers so as to eliminate any form of corruption with the system. All it takes for people to forget about color is to remember that we are all one regardless of what color we are. If people aren't willing to accept that and want to cause problems for others because of it, than those people would have to be dealt with accordingly.

The work program would have to be a one size fits all with exceptions being made for people who are less able and or have handicaps, etc. One size fits all to the best of people's ability that is. One that doesn't effect their health in a majorly adversely way. One that would provide enough energy for the system to work at it's most efficient level.

The restrictions to travel I see no reason for because hopefully there would be a penalty system in place for people who skipped their work to go party or something. A minor penalty but a strict one that would always be enforced. One that would deter people from doing such a thing. I believe there should be on and off days for work as well, as to not cause people to feel like the system is running them instead of them being a part of something great.

Maybe work one day off the next. Work the other, off the next. Everyone needs a place and time to rest their head and empty their stress.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:38 am

Also.....what is the difference between having a lifespan of 72 and of 95? There are 95 year old people who are in better shape than people who are 72. If they are lucky to live that long.

Killing people must be a no no for the system to work. Killing people for any reason is wrong. Let them kill themselves if they want, do not take their lives. Thou shalt not kill. If no one is trying to kill you, than you don't have the right to kill them.

However if someone is trying to kill you, than you should have the option. Not a mandatory option. But the choice. If someone wants to lay down and be killed, Let them. As long as the person doing the killing is doing it by their own will and not for someone else.

Thou shalt not kill is a guideline. Not an enforceable preventive measure. There is no law that can be made to completely eliminate murder. Only a guideline that can be set in place and punishment as a result.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:43 am

TruthBringer;1339194 wrote: And what are those people who are rioting hoping to achieve? If they were provided for those things even during a natural disaster....would there be any need for them to riot?

The main difference I see between animals and Humans is that Human Beings are the only ones who will work to preserve another species where as any other species of creature of the planet simply can not and will not do such a thing.

It does not matter what the rioters are hoping to achieve. You are missing the whole point. Even in a world without money people will still have the same SEVEN DEADLY SINS------------PRIDE,ENVY,GLUTTONY,LUST,ANGER,GREED,SLOTH. It is these things that prevent a perfect society from ever becoming a reality.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:45 am

TruthBringer;1339198 wrote: Aside from changing the skin color

Oen skin color would make racism obsolete since it would be impossible to tell the difference between people by looking at them.

and making it mandatory for everyone to have birth control (who would ever have a child? When would that process stop?) I see no problem with the rest of your ideas.

Sorry I wasn't clear. Everyone would have birth control except those designated by Uni to reproduce. They, of course, would have the best genes and therefore the process of shaping mankind to be gentler, smarter, and less selfish would eventually be hereditary. It would also be important to control the size of the population.

You had no problem wit a mandatory death age of 72?

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:46 am

TruthBringer;1339201 wrote: Also.....what is the difference between having a lifespan of 72 and of 95? There are 95 year old people who are in better shape than people who are 72. If they are lucky to live that long.

From a computer's point of view, people begin to use more resources than they generate after 72. More health care resources specifically. So it would be logical for a computer to get rid of old people.

Note: I saw your answer after I typed this.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:47 am

TruthBringer;1339172 wrote: Do away with money first.So the FIRST thing you want to do is do away with that which people value so much that they will commit murder to acquire it? That's asking for chaos.

TruthBringer wrote: Give everyone enough food and water to live their full lives.Everyone worldwide or in a specific area? Where will this food and water come from is the local area doesn't have enough? How will it be acquired? I know if I had the water I'd be pretty miserly about how much I'd dole out, for fear I might run out.

TruthBringer wrote: Provide them with access to REAL health care, a safe environment, and a few toys for their entertainment (such as internet access, electricity, running water, etc.).Again, same question. And since you advocate a global government to do this, how are do you propose vanquishing the forces who will resist such a drastic change?

TruthBringer wrote: Keep an honorable justice and police system in place for security, and make sure that everyone that is able to be is involved in some way in the entire process. Is that not done now?

TruthBringer wrote: And then come back on here and spout that BS. I'm tired of that age old argument. Easy for you to say when we've never had a World Wide System that did any of those things for everyone.Because it's logistically impossible!

TruthBringerThe World WOULD be a better place. People WOULD be happier. Jesus was right.

Get rid of that thing called MONEY that we don't ****ing really need and that we never did. Get rid of the lie we have been sold. God didn't make the World with a currency system in place.[/quote wrote: He also didn't make the world with 5 billion people worldwide.

[QUOTE=TruthBringer] Man created it because he wanted to get one over on his neighbor.Man created it because a gold coin is easier to carry than an ox and two goats.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:47 am

Lon;1339204 wrote: It does not matter what the rioters are hoping to achieve. You are missing the whole point. Even in a world without money people will still have the same SEVEN DEADLY SINS------------PRIDE,ENVY,GLUTTONY,LUST,ANGER,GREED,SLOTH. It is these things that prevent a perfect society from ever becoming a reality.

No one practices those things on the same level. There is no such thing as a perfect society. There never will be. But society can be improved on every level. Improved in a way that pleases the majority of Human Beings.

If the majority of Human Beings are doing good, than good things will come as a result. But if the majority of Human Beings are allowed to run completely wild and do bad things, than chaos will result.

1 person should not have a say in what everyone else does. Just as 1 person should not rule over another. But the majority of people working together for a cause is always going to have a greater impact than 1 single person working for the same cause so therefore the majority should always have the final say. You can't pick one person to do everything for everyone else. But you can pick everyone together to work together for each other person's well being.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:51 am

Accountable;1339209 wrote: So the FIRST thing you want to do is do away with that which people value so much that they will commit murder to acquire it? That's asking for chaos.

Everyone worldwide or in a specific area? Where will this food and water come from is the local area doesn't have enough? How will it be acquired? I know if I had the water I'd be pretty miserly about how much I'd dole out, for fear I might run out.

Again, same question. And since you advocate a global government to do this, how are do you propose vanquishing the forces who will resist such a drastic change?

Is that not done now?

Because it's logistically impossible!

He also didn't make the world with 5 billion people worldwide.

Man created it because a gold coin is easier to carry than an ox and two goats.

Most of your arguments are based upon the fear that there won't be a balanced system in place to take care of the needs of everyone. The fear that such a system could not exist. But such a system could exist. So there is no reason to fear not having it.

Where would everything come from? It would have to be worked out. Is there enough resources on the planet for everyone to live a long and happy life? Of course there is. Right now it's in the hands of a few though (as comparable to the entire World population) when it should be one for all and all for one.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:00 am

I choose liberty, warts and all

So long as human beings are allowed to make choices, some will make bad choices. Some will make selfish choices. I don't want any Grand Society taking away my choice from me, even if a choice of mine puts me in a disadvantageous position. For the exact same reason, I would not advocate taking away others' liberty, and I would (and do) resist any effort to do so.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:02 am

Saint_;1339205 wrote: Oen skin color would make racism obsolete since it would be impossible to tell the difference between people by looking at them.

Sorry I wasn't clear. Everyone would have birth control except those designated by Uni to reproduce. They, of course, would have the best genes and therefore the process of shaping mankind to be gentler, smarter, and less selfish would eventually be hereditary. It would also be important to control the size of the population.

You had no problem wit a mandatory death age of 72?

Well, I suppose as long as it could be proven that the genes were indeed better than others, not because they had been "tweaked" to be so, but because they naturally were, than I guess I see no problem with having only the brightest minds and the strongest and most versatile people having children. Eventually it would get to the point anyways where all offspring on the planet would be mating with each other and therefore all people one day who would be on the planet would have the option to have children.

As for the mandatory death age of 72 like I said before there is no reason to believe that a 95 year old man or woman in optimal health could not perform certain tasks that would benefit the rest of society. And therefore still effect it in a positive manner. Therefore because most people don't live to see 96, I believe that we should let nature take it's course on that one. With the most efficient health system in place to ensure that everyone is always at peak performance however.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:02 am

Accountable;1339216 wrote: I choose liberty, warts and all

So long as human beings are allowed to make choices, some will make bad choices. Some will make selfish choices. I don't want any Grand Society taking away my choice from me, even if a choice of mine puts me in a disadvantageous position. For the exact same reason, I would not advocate taking away others' liberty, and I would (and do) resist any effort to do so.

I agree. Unfortunately, choice becomes narrower and narrower the more people there are. At a certain point, say 50 billion, choice will no longer be possible if all are survive. My friend says this about government and money, "How can a country the size of ours run without it?"

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:04 am

Accountable;1339216 wrote: I choose liberty, warts and all

So long as human beings are allowed to make choices, some will make bad choices. Some will make selfish choices. I don't want any Grand Society taking away my choice from me, even if a choice of mine puts me in a disadvantageous position. For the exact same reason, I would not advocate taking away others' liberty, and I would (and do) resist any effort to do so.

This is the exact reason that America is crumbling at the moment. Because people spend more time bickering about exactly what liberty is and what liberties should be given up for "security" and which ones should be kept for "freedom" that nothing really ever gets done. Just constant bickering and protesting and arguing and nonsense. That seems to be the direction the country continues to be going in. Our system is definitely outdated. I agree with that entirely. People don't like to let go of traditions, I understand that. No one does. Especially when people have died for them. But people die every day. And we must be willing to let go of the past if it means a better future.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:05 am

TruthBringer;1339218 wrote: I see no problem with having only the brightest minds and the strongest and most versatile people having children. Eventually it would get to the point anyways where all offspring on the planet would be mating with each other and therefore all people one day who would be on the planet would have the option to have children..

I agree. I've always found it funny that we breed our animals for better traits and less birth defects constantly, but we'd never dream of doing it for ourselves.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:06 am

Saint_;1339208 wrote: From a computer's point of view, people begin to use more resources than they generate after 72. More health care resources specifically. So it would be logical for a computer to get rid of old people.

Note: I saw your answer after I typed this.

My generation of old folks (I'm 76) do consume a number of resources, but many of us are fairly affluent and pay substantial taxes as well as substantial premiums for our health care (it ain't free).

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:06 am

TruthBringer;1339220 wrote: And we must be willing to let go of the past if it means a better future.

Agreed. that's mostly why I'm against the NEOCONS. They'd like to return to the past.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:08 am

Lon;1339222 wrote: My generation of old folks (I'm 76) do consume a number of resources, but many of us are fairly affluent and pay substantial taxes as well as substantial premiums for our health care (it ain't free).

I agree, and the human value of experience may not have a dollars and cents value, but is is crucial none the less. That's one of the reasons I'd rather not have computers running the world, they'd only see logic and not emotion. (I'm on your side Lon.)

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:10 am

Saint_;1339224 wrote: I agree, and the human value of experience may not have a dollars and cents value, but is is crucial none the less. That's one of the reasons I'd rather not have computers running the world, they'd only see logic and not emotion. (I'm on your side Lon.)

Can the same not be said about our current system of governance? What would be different? Are our leaders at the moment truly that sympathetic towards us? Or do they base their decisions more on their own twisted logic than they do on what the majority of people actually want? Perhaps some governments are different, but that's the problem. They really shouldn't be. The World population should work together to design and create and have a say in a World government system. Not a few people who think they know what's logical for everyone else.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:14 am

TruthBringer;1339210 wrote: No one practices those things on the same level. There is no such thing as a perfect society. There never will be. But society can be improved on every level. Improved in a way that pleases the majority of Human Beings.

If the majority of Human Beings are doing good, than good things will come as a result. But if the majority of Human Beings are allowed to run completely wild and do bad things, than chaos will result.

1 person should not have a say in what everyone else does. Just as 1 person should not rule over another. But the majority of people working together for a cause is always going to have a greater impact than 1 single person working for the same cause so therefore the majority should always have the final say. You can't pick one person to do everything for everyone else. But you can pick everyone together to work together for each other person's well being.

While not everyone will be guilty of any of the SEVEN DEADLY SINS-----enough will, and it is for this reason that a group of people would have great difficulty working together for the common good.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:16 am

Lon;1339226 wrote: While not everyone will be guilty of any of the SEVEN DEADLY SINS-----enough will, and it is for this reason that a group of people would have great difficulty working together for the common good.

I think you had it right before. I believe everyone is guilty of one of those "7 deadly sins" within their lifetime. The difference comes in the degree of extremism that a person is indulging in one of them. It is different for each person. Some will practice gluttony to a lessor or minor degree. Others will practice it until they have to be air lifted from their bedrooms. But most will have practiced at least 1 of them within their lifetimes. The ones that don't should be celebrated throughout history. As a model of what to aspire to.

binbag · Post by **binbag** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:37 pm

TruthBringer;1339155 wrote: People steal for it. People kill for it. People divorce because of it. People betray for it. People lie for it. People cheat for it. People fear the loss of it. People become obsessed with it. People lose faith because of it. People judge because of it. People cry over it.

Much of the World's problems have their root cause in money.

If the World worked together to make sure every resource went towards making each person healthy, happy, and stable, we could eliminate these problems from Humanity.

If we cared enough for every person in the World to make sure that no one lacked in the items necessary for their survival, than we could eliminate this plague from the World.

Everybody deserves to be happy UNTIL THEY MAKE CHOICES WHICH EFFECT OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES IN A NEGATIVE MANNER PERIOD.

If everybody had things in their lives which made them happier and more positive, than inevitably there would be less negativity in the World. It's a simple concept that we Human Beings can't seem to grasp and we just won't work together to get our **** together.

Only when someone attempts to take from another person's happiness should they be dealt with accordingly.

Let the people of the World live in peace! And we have an obligation to work together to protect that peace for the rest of our God given lives!

Excellent thoughts for a beautiful and better way of life for us all TruthBringer.

It could be achieved, however, the only way of establishing a rock solid positive moral society, I feel, is via a worldwide spiritual change.

Sadly, that is never going to happen, unless, and until that is, man is threatened by man with global annihilation, would such a concept be, not considered, but a 'must do'.

Very sad, I don't think it will happen in my lifetime, perhaps not even in my grandchildren's lifetime. Someday though, someday, it will happen.

Just my thoughts for utopia.

Good post.

bb

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 1:37 pm

TruthBringer;1339220 wrote: This is the exact reason that America is crumbling at the moment. Because people spend more time bickering about exactly what liberty is and what liberties should be given up for "security" and which ones should be kept for "freedom" that nothing really ever gets done. Just constant bickering and protesting and arguing and nonsense. That seems to be the direction the country continues to be going in. Our system is definitely outdated. I agree with that entirely. People don't like to let go of traditions, I understand that. No one does. Especially when people have died for them. But people die every day. And we must be willing to let go of the past if it means a better future.What is the purpose of your "utopian" society where all is provided and nobody has to make any decisions?

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:11 pm

Accountable;1339247 wrote: What is the purpose of your "utopian" society where all is provided and nobody has to make any decisions?

Forward progress towards interstellar colonization and travel, and elimination of war, poverty, and waste.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:49 pm

Saint_;1339251 wrote: Forward progress towards interstellar colonization and travel, and elimination of war, poverty, and waste.
Assuming that TruthBringer agrees - to what end? It seems to me the goal also eliminates the human part of humanity and becomes a breeding program for domesticated bipeds.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:47 am

Thanks Bin and I would just like to clarify here that I am in no way advocating the same thing that the New World Order scumbags are advocating for the World. Like I said I am not in favor of the few controlling the masses.

Their idea of a virtual currency is still a currency in my opinion. It still causes the same type of problems that paper currency causes. And their idea of microchipping the population goes against everything I believe in as well. I am not for the Mark Of The Beast. And for people who are confused about what that is, read Revelations in the Bible. You will have a better understanding.

So yes, I am in favor of a World Government. But no, I am not in favor of a World Government that is chosen for the people and not BY the people and one that would be a dictatorship run by banks and corporations who would determine what was "right" for the World. Bankers and Corporate heads are some of the most greedy people to ever set foot on the planet. If they think they are ever going to choose what is right for Humanity just because they wear a suit and went to ivy league schools they have another thing coming. I will fight that idea with every ounce of my being until the day that I die. And I hope any person who cares about our planet would do the same.

So if we can have a World Government sooner than later I think it would be a good thing. But unless it's one that the World picks (all nations included - and all citizens of all of those nations playing a part in it), than watch out for any other type of manufactured World Government that is being put on the table which is happening as we speak because if that were to happen and if it wasn't a true benevolent World Government than disaster would follow on an epic scale.

As far as what you asked Accountable about what would be the point of a Utopian society where no one makes decisions I don't think you would have to worry about that because people literally make thousands of decisions per day regardless of society. In their relationships, with their friends, family, etc. And also with other areas of their lives regarding where to go, what to do, when to do it, how to do it, etc.

The decision making process will not be neglected. Only altered. And transition into an easier way of life is something that I believe all Human Beings have the capicity for adapting to. If we can adapt during the harshest of times, we can adapt during the most peaceful and comfortable ones as well.

I believe we are ready for a World Government. The World that is. The only problem is getting an open forum where everyone can voice their opinion and have their say in the way they think it should be. Then, once all nations agree on the skeleton of it, which by the way could take decades and that's perfectly acceptable for the World if it does, we don't want to rush something like that we want to make sure that we design it to the best of our abilities, than I don't believe it will be a problem at this point in time in fact I believe it is an integral part of our evolutionary process and destiny on this planet to create a World Government before we ever get the technology to colonize other planets. We have to have something extremely solid in place here first so that we can deal with all of the other problems that living outside of planet Earth would inevitably cause us to run into. Especially in the case of leaving our own Solar System. If and when that day ever comes.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:58 am

Good luck trying to convince present-day hunter gatherer societies that they need a government telling them what to do. Eh, screw 'em, right? After all:TruthBringer;1339210 wrote: ... the majority should always have the final say.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:04 am

TruthBringer;1339335 wrote: As far as what you asked Accountable about what would be the point of a Utopian society where no one makes decisions I don't think you would have to worry about that because people literally make thousands of decisions per day regardless of society. In their relationships, with their friends, family, etc. And also with other areas of their lives regarding where to go, what to do, when to do it, how to do it, etc. How glib. Not all decisions carry the same weight, and you are proposing to take away the very most important ones. You yourself in this thread have advocated taking away the choice of relationships, family, and where to go. All these decisions would be taken away.

TruthBringer wrote: The decision making process will not be neglected. Only altered. And transition into an easier way of life is something that I believe all Human Beings have the capicity for adapting to.Do you truly have no idea how sinister this sounds? :-2

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:55 am

I agree with TB and I raised the matter of a society without money a while ago in another thread. Furthermore, I can imagine such a society. However, I realise that achieving a society that is not dependent on currency would be very difficult. Even overcoming the psychology whereby people cannot imagine such a society because they believe that we need money to survive. Money has become deeply ingrained in our lives. Yet, it is man-made. Perhaps the materials used are from natural resources but money itself is not. It is a concept. But there are problems to overcome.

I wish I had the time to fully research this subject and write a thesis. But I don't because I have to go and earn money. But there really is another way of life that could be lived without the need for money. I do not deny that it would be radically different to how we live our lives today.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:23 am

A society without money or some means of monetary exchange be it diamonds, gold, pebbles, shells, computer credits etc. would be possible if we wish to revert back to the Stone Age. The mere thought of doing so, while beneficent, is ludicrous. Would you actually propose doing away with Foreign Exchange, Banks, Corporations, Partnerships, Stock Brokerage Firms, Accounting Services and all the other businesses and services where some form of monetary credit or exchange is crucial to a modern civilized society. Don't fault money or monetary exchange, fault people and their weaknesses.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:29 pm

Lon;1339377 wrote: A society without money or some means of monetary exchange be it diamonds, gold, pebbles, shells, computer credits etc. would be possible if we wish to revert back to the Stone Age. The mere thought of doing so, while beneficent, is ludicrous. Would you actually propose doing away with Foreign Exchange, Banks, Corporations, Partnerships, Stock Brokerage Firms, Accounting Services and all the other businesses and services where some form of monetary credit or exchange is crucial to a modern civilized society. Don't fault money or monetary exchange, fault people and their weaknesses.

We only need these institutions that you mention because of money. But, of course, just because there was no money, it wouldn't stop people from exchanging things if they wanted to.

Of course, dispensing with a market economy requires very careful consideration. Nonetheless, I believe that the quality of life would improve greatly if society did not have to depend on money. Money, to a greater or lesser extent, dictates how a lot of people live their lives. It also enables the minority to control the majority. Though the control of any vital resource would enable this type of social interaction.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:22 pm

OpenMind;1339384 wrote: We only need these institutions that you mention because of money. But, of course, just because there was no money, it wouldn't stop people from exchanging things if they wanted to.

Of course, dispensing with a market economy requires very careful consideration. Nonetheless, I believe that the quality of life would improve greatly if society did not have to depend on money. Money, to a greater or lesser extent, dictates how a lot of people live their lives. It also enables the minority to control the majority. Though the control of any vital resource would enable this type of social interaction.

I would agree with you if we lived in a small village where every thing we needed to sustain us originated there, however, we live in a big big village where foreign trade is essential to our well being and quality of life. Foreign trade and commerce cannot be facilitated without some means of monetary exchange or record keeping. Econ 101

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:09 am

Lon;1339393 wrote: I would agree with you if we lived in a small village where every thing we needed to sustain us originated there, however, we live in a big big village where foreign trade is essential to our well being and quality of life. Foreign trade and commerce cannot be facilitated without some means of monetary exchange or record keeping. Econ 101

People can't trade goods with each other without a monetary system in place? Sounds like somebody teaching the class doesn't know what they are talking about.

You got this item. I need that item. Or...you got these items...I'll trade you these items. No need for a paper currency called money with dead Presidents faces on them. Or dead leaders.....or people who thought they had something going for them that made it so that their entire family bloodline could be called kings and queens for centuries. Again...it's all bullshit.

Pull the queen of England aside and say...who the **** are you? And why do I have to call you a queen? Watch her face go purple.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:11 am

TruthBringer;1339474 wrote: People can't trade goods with each other without a monetary system in place? Sounds like somebody teaching the class doesn't know what they are talking about.

You got this item. I need that item. Or...you got these items...I'll trade you these items. No need for a paper currency called money with dead Presidents faces on them. Or dead leaders.....or people who thought they had something going for them that made it so that their entire family bloodline could be called kings and queens for centuries. Again...it's all bullshit.

Pull the queen of England aside and say...who the **** are you? And why do I have to call you a queen? Watch her face go purple.It sounds like you have something against paper.

Money is currency to replace goods, so that we don't have to carry around a basket full of chickens when we go shopping. No matter what we are trading, be it pieces of paper or pounds of pepper, you've done nothing to change the fact that we will have have's and have-nots, only the identities of those people.

Now: You've got this money. I've got this item. Wanna buy it? Well, this item is really popular and in high demand, and people are willing to pay more. You'll have to give me more money.

After: You've got this item. I've got this item. You want my item? Well, I don't really need your item, but you need mine. You'll have to give me five or six of yours for one of mine.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:58 am

Accountable;1339486 wrote: It sounds like you have something against paper.

Money is currency to replace goods, so that we don't have to carry around a basket full of chickens when we go shopping. No matter what we are trading, be it pieces of paper or pounds of pepper, you've done nothing to change the fact that we will have have's and have-nots, only the identities of those people.

Now: You've got this money. I've got this item. Wanna buy it? Well, this item is really popular and in high demand, and people are willing to pay more. You'll have to give me more money.

After: You've got this item. I've got this item. You want my item? Well, I don't really need your item, but you need mine. You'll have to give me five or six of yours for one of mine.

Well I do have something against paper yes because it can be backed by thin air as our current currency is here in America. You can print some paper and say that it's backed by all the gold in the World and therefore you can print as much of it as you want as our federal reserve system does today.

Listen...people can pretend all day that the paper currency system isn't manipulated at the top levels. The bottom line is that we all know it is. We won't be walking into the printing press rooms anytime soon to see how things are going over there. It's a corrupt system and it has gotten us to the point we are at today.

As for mineral currency. Gold/Silver, etc. I think those are a bit better because the proof of them is right in front of your face. I like them better than paper that's for sure although there isn't as much gold and silver to go around as there is pieces of paper. So there is a problem there as well. Not to mention that the same lust and greed associated with money would come into play with gold and silver as well. Only it could be even worse because there would be less to go around. But currency that doesn't need to be backed by anything is always better in my opinion than a currency that pretends it is backed by something.

And then we have the barter system which I favor the most. A trading system where no medium is needed. Only products are exchanged for each other. This is the ideal system in my opinion there is no corruption involved. You see the product you are getting, and they see the product they are getting. If you don't have the product to trade, they don't want to give you the product you want in return. It's simple. But usually every nation has SOMETHING that some other nation would be willing to trade for. I like this one the best and it is the one that I would assume will be in place after the whole Pole-Shift hypothesis comes into play in the next few years which I still believe is coming/happening and as our Earth begins to rapidly change for the coming Age.