10 year old girl . . . . .

[cars]

in Spain has just become a "mother"! "Her mother" is happy that her 10 year old daughter gave birth. And she is delighted to have a new granddaughter, and doesn't understand why anyone is shocked at the birth! The baby's "13" year old father, has since split up with his young girlfriend, and is out of the picture. The grandmother said, that her and her daughter are gypsies, and their custom is to allow girls to marry young! Spanish social welfare authorities are looking into whether the family will be able to provide for the new baby! Any employer's out there looking for a 10 year old employee?



Well IMO, 10 is rather too young, but then again, I'm not a gypsie.

[fuzzywuzzy]

I feel sorry for the young girl. There's just so much to say but I don't have to because I think we're all thinking it.

Just one question though which gypsy clan are they from?

[Ahso!]

Has anyone with a line of communication to the creator ever inquired and received an answer as to why children this young have the ability to reproduce if they're not supposed to?

Do you think the young girl should have had an abortion after it was learned that the pregnancy was a reality?

[cars]

fuzzywuzzy;1342410 wrote: I feel sorry for the young girl. There's just so much to say but I don't have to because I think we're all thinking it.

Just one question though which gypsy clan are they from?


Romanian Gypsies.

[cars]

Ahso!;1342412 wrote: Has anyone with a line of communication to the creator ever inquired and received an answer as to why children this young have the ability to reproduce if they're not supposed to?

Do you think the young girl should have had an abortion after it was learned that the pregnancy was a reality?


Well that's a whole nother contraversial subject in itself! My answer is ?

[koan]

What's the problem? It's not like the father was an adult. Did an adult force the two children together and make them breed?

imo it is way better that the mother was happy and supportive then forcing an abortion. Seems like the best solution to the problem was found.

[Ahso!]

I know I didn't have that kind of sexual drive or knowhow at 13, nor can I recall spotting either in any of my four daughters at 9 years of age. I'm wondering where the suggestion to do this came from. I'm not making a moral judgment on the situation.

[koan]

quite a few of the men I've known claim to have started having sex at 12 or 13. It only took one of them to have the inclination and the other to be curious.

[fuzzywuzzy]

Ahso!;1342430 wrote: I'm not making a moral judgment on the situation.


I am, at the age of ten this young child does not even have the fortitude to understand puberty let alone motherhood. .....and the mother couldnt see fit to see to her daughters welfare? Bullshit........mum has the attention needed, and another little breeder to do her bidding. to be honest with you I want to shoot the mother!!!! (not he ten year old..) Koan supporting the mothers choice in her daughters pregnancy can hardly be like supporting a 16 year old who happens to go the distance with her boyfriend.......shes' ten for christ sakes!!!! How can you possibly be "HAPPY" that your ten year old has had to endure not only pregnancy but child birth ...and lets face it it wouldnt have been a natural birth. In my opinion this is female child abuse in the extreme.

[koan]

Apparently a caesarian was not required. The mother and baby are currently in good health.

10-year-old gives birth in Spain | World news | The Guardian

Andalucía had 177 children born to girls who were 14 or under in 2008 – though no one can recall a case involving a 10-year-old.

[fuzzywuzzy]

hmmmm nine year old in china , apparently a five year old girl in (again spain) recorded but I have my doubts.

Koan what were your insides doing after child birth ? and you were an adult? Can you imagine what this poor childs' insides are like at the moment? Have not even had a chance to mature?



Just been looking up the history of child birth among romanian gypsies. Now I only know of the romanian gypsies forming crime gangs in australia .......but this is a very seperate issue to any prejudice of a people. (beginning to understand they are not gypsies at all but international crime gangs.)

aaannnyyyway .......where in any code does it state that "marrying" girls off young is not unuasual? and the girl is not married ..........and if you go off any sort of credence associated with gypsies babies were born to be sold off to women in towns who couldn't give birth ....(early adoption agencies if you will) But they used their own daughters to produce the money making scheme. (can only afford to feed so many I suppose)

[koan]

Why don't you also ask what my insides were like after having an abortion? I'd take the childbirth every time. Plus, better chance that she'll be able to have children again after childbirth than the other, less natural, option.

[fuzzywuzzy]

koan;1342442 wrote: Apparently a caesarian was not required. The mother and baby are currently in good health.

10-year-old gives birth in Spain | World news | The Guardian

Andalucía had 177 children born to girls who were 14 or under in 2008 – though no one can recall a case involving a 10-year-old.


I'm only going to take a guess here because many ancient cultures have a high proportion of (conditioned pregnancies) In some cultures it's not tabboo to teach girls of around 12 to 13 about sex 'physically'. But it's more or less not to have them breed but to train them up as suitable women for men. ...(take away the ummmmm.....fear of it all ) Some actually do become pregnant. As I said, just a guess but this is what has happened as it does in our own society...

[fuzzywuzzy]

koan;1342447 wrote: Why don't you also ask what my insides were like after having an abortion? I'd take the childbirth every time. Plus, better chance that she'll be able to have children again after childbirth than the other, less natural, option.


You shouldn't have any problems after an abortion.

but a ten year old with stretch marks when she should be playing ......with her dolls??

[koan]

well, if you want to assume to know all the details, motivations and assert what the outcome would be in any given situation... there's no point in arguing with the omnipotent.

Though I find it rather absurd that you know better than I what has happened to my womb in the past.

[fuzzywuzzy]

OMG i just realised !!! she's in grade three ........not even half way through primary school . she doesn't even know algebra yet, nor the history of the world ........and she's in Spain!!!!!! They have a great education system..........Ihad to pass the local primary school today ......if any of you have the chance to pass a school look at the children who have only been in school for four years......sorry koan not going to convince me on this one.

[koan]

by all means, continue with your exclamations, proclamations and indignant reactions.

don't let me stand in the way.

[fuzzywuzzy]

koan;1342452 wrote: well, if you want to assume to know all the details, motivations and assert what the outcome would be in any given situation... there's no point in arguing with the omnipotent.

Though I find it rather absurd that you know better than I what has happened to my womb in the past.


NO babe we have both been there and done that on this board (and I as talking generally about women) years ago and I supported you ...I keep all that to myself now.





nad yea I do know .......I've lived I'm not dumb. I'm just asking you to transfer that to a ten year old girl ....not good.

[recovering conservative]

koan;1342447 wrote: Why don't you also ask what my insides were like after having an abortion? I'd take the childbirth every time. Plus, better chance that she'll be able to have children again after childbirth than the other, less natural, option.


These idiots are just lucky that the girl didn't die during childbirth! This is a ten year old girl we're talking about here! She has no legal capacity to make a choice about having a baby in the first place. And her mother and whatever support network exists in that band of Gypsies who actively encouraged a ten year old girl to carry a pregnancy to full term should be charged with child endangerment. A girl's pelvis is not fully developed at 10, and the rigours of childbirth had high odds of killing her along with the baby. I would have demanded the fetus be aborted, once it was discovered that a ten year old girl was pregnant.

This story is the doppleganger of an equally absurd story from Brazil two years ago -- where the Catholic Church excomunicated the mother, and the doctors who aborted twins from a nine year old girl. In that case, the mother had her head on straight, and the Church presented exhibit A of why prohibition of abortion is immoral -- the doctors determined that the girl wouldn't likely survive the birthing ordeal, and rigid Catholic dogma would have just caused the death of the girl and the twins she was carrying!

[Bridget]

My oldest sister says she was physically mature enough at ten to have had a child. She also had to wear adult underwear at ten. I can not imagine as I was not physically mature until I was fifteen.

[recovering conservative]

Bridget;1342816 wrote: My oldest sister says she was physically mature enough at ten to have had a child. She also had to wear adult underwear at ten. I can not imagine as I was not physically mature until I was fifteen.


I go by what the medical experts say, who declared in that awful case of the 9 year old Brazilian girl - pregnant with twins, that a young girl -- who is still growing herself -- is at risk, along with the fetus, if the pregnancy is carried to term. Seems to me a no-brainer that this is one instance when abortion should not even be a matter of choice. There is no point to playing russian roulette with a young girl's life.

In this brief article on the story covered in the Australian, it's noted that even teenage girls -- who may be fully developed physically -- are still at a greater risk of premature birth, and infant death during the first year of life. So, with all the attention on the risks involved with older women having babies these days, a little more attention needs to be directed at stopping young teenage girls from getting pregnant -- and standing up to these damn so called "pro life" groups that try to interfere with the abortion option, if she does get pregnant........speaking of the devil, I couldn't find a single one of these groups in the first two pages of searching for new news on this story. Their silence speaks loudly that they approve of 10 year old girls railroaded into childbirth!

[koan]

Let's not be under the illusion that abortion is a clean, simple, safe solution.

INCREASED RISKS FOR TEENAGERS:

Teenagers, who account for about 30 percent of all abortions, are also at much high risk of suffering many abortion related complications. This is true of both immediate complications, and of long-term reproductive damage.


Abortion Risks: A list of major physical complications related to abortion

[Ahso!]

It looks like the girl is more like 14. That isn't much older, but at least its not 10.

10-Year-Old Mother A Hoax? Romanian Neighbors Say Child Mom Older Than Reported

[recovering conservative]

koan;1343001 wrote: Let's not be under the illusion that abortion is a clean, simple, safe solution.

Abortion Risks: A list of major physical complications related to abortion


Oh great! More exaggerated claims about abortion risks from an anti-abortion site......and why a study from Finland? Couldn't they find anything from an American source? And whatever the abortion risks for an underage girl would be, they would still be far less than the risks involved with pregnancy and childbirth at such an early age.

I had to search through 3 pages before I could find a legitimate analysis of some of their claims -- Reality check: abortion risks

Published On Sat Aug 07 2010

Joanna Smith Ottawa Bureau

Here are the three main risks that crisis pregnancy centres visited by the Star claim are associated with abortion. Medical experts have largely dismissed them as myths and exaggerations.

BREAST CANCER

What they said: Several centres suggested that a woman increases her risk of breast cancer by having an abortion. The counsellor at Aid to Women said the risk was as high as 80 per cent, whereas a counsellor at Mississauga Life Centre mentioned only a “possible link to breast cancer.

Reality check: The U.S. National Cancer Institute convened a workshop of more than a hundred leading international experts in 2003 to review the existing studies and concluded that neither abortion nor miscarriage increases the risk of developing breast cancer. The Public Health Agency of Canada (according to spokeswoman Sylwia Gomes) and the Canadian Cancer Society both support this conclusion, and based on its own review, the Society of Obstetricians and Gynecologists of Canada recommends that women be reassured of the risk when they seek information about abortion from their doctors.



EMOTIONAL TRAUMA

What they said: Every centre visited by the Star said that abortion can cause negative psychological effects ranging from sadness and guilt to substance abuse and suicidal thoughts

Reality check: The American Psychiatric Association does not list either “Post Abortion Stress or “Post Abortion Syndrome in its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, considered the authoritative index of mental illnesses. The association issued a statement in 2008 from then-president Dr. Nada Stotland noting the lack of evidence linking abortion to psychiatric illness.

“A woman may have many emotional reactions to an unwanted pregnancy and abortion – most commonly relief, but also sadness and a sense of loss. These feelings can coexist and, like feelings about any important life decision, they can vary over time, said Stotland, adding that negative feelings are often associated with the circumstances that led the woman to choose abortion, and not the procedure itself.

FERTILITY PROBLEMS

What they said: Crisis pregnancy centres say abortion increases the risk of future miscarriages and premature births, which they attributed to complications from the surgical procedure such as perforation of the uterus, and could even cause infertility. Several counsellors told stories of women they had met who had chosen to terminate their pregnancies in the past and were now suffering because they were unable to bear children once they felt ready for motherhood.

Reality check: The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists in the United Kingdom includes a review of the literature in its guidelines for induced abortions and concludes there are no proven associations between terminating a pregnancy and subsequent infertility, but did note the procedure may be associated with a small increase in future preterm delivery or miscarriage, although the evidence is inconclusive.

If those problems are due to complications from the surgical procedure, then the relative risks are rare and influenced by factors such as gestational age and the experience and training level of the physician. Choice in Health Clinic in the Bloor St. W. and Keele St. area of Toronto, for example, informs clients that injury to the uterus happens less than once in every 1,000 abortions and major surgery to repair it, such as hysterectomy, happens approximately once for every 10,000 procedures.

[recovering conservative]

Ahso!;1343110 wrote: It looks like the girl is more like 14. That isn't much older, but at least its not 10.

10-Year-Old Mother A Hoax? Romanian Neighbors Say Child Mom Older Than Reported


It may be more useful to treat this story like a thought problem than a factual event, since the Spanish Government has kept the identity of the girl and her family secret, and is not disclosing any medical information.

We have no way of knowing if this story in Huffpo is legit either! Since they are just going on the word of people claiming to be relatives. We also have no proof that the father of the child is in fact a 13 year old Romanian boy who is out of country as reported earlier. The girl may be just as likely a victim of incest for all we know.

So, as a hypothetical -- since it is possible for a 10 year old girl to already be ovulating and capable of getting pregnant -- should a 10 year old be permitted to have a baby?

[koan]

recovering conservative;1343156 wrote: Oh great! More exaggerated claims about abortion risks from an anti-abortion site......and why a study from Finland? Couldn't they find anything from an American source? And whatever the abortion risks for an underage girl would be, they would still be far less than the risks involved with pregnancy and childbirth at such an early age.




Here's a Canadian example.

I had an abortion, bled for a year, have all kinds of health complications since and lost the next baby I tried to have. So I don't consider those concerns to be myths. It's probably the worst decision I ever made.

[K.Snyder]

Ahso!;1342412 wrote: Has anyone with a line of communication to the creator ever inquired and received an answer as to why children this young have the ability to reproduce if they're not supposed to?

Do you think the young girl should have had an abortion after it was learned that the pregnancy was a reality?Considering the body and the brain are not separate entities I'd say purely that the physical make up of the brain is what defines ones inability to foster "babies". "Not supposed to" isn't just a trump over ones inability to associate "mentality" as one in the same as "physicality", I don't know of a greater example of proof than this particular instance.

The real question is whether one has asked why a child "shouldn't" bear children if they've every reasonable expectation to raise the then appropriately defined baby not only sufficiently but exceptionally well

[recovering conservative]

koan;1343188 wrote: Here's a Canadian example.

I had an abortion, bled for a year, have all kinds of health complications since and lost the next baby I tried to have. So I don't consider those concerns to be myths. It's probably the worst decision I ever made.


I'm sorry to hear that you had such an ordeal from an abortion; but, as the saying goes:'the exception does not prove the rule'! Once again, at the bottom of the post I linked, it stated: "Choice in Health Clinic in the Bloor St. W. and Keele St. area of Toronto, for example, informs clients that injury to the uterus happens less than once in every 1,000 abortions and major surgery to repair it, such as hysterectomy, happens approximately once for every 10,000 procedures. "

Someone has to be that one in a thousand, or one in ten thousand, just as someone has to be the one in a million that wins a major lottery prize -- and, unfortunately in this case, you were the exception to the rule that clinic abortions are usually safe and free of further health complications.

And let's not forget how hazardous pregnancy and childbirth is for women also. When my wife was last pregnant -- 18 years ago, she developed dangerously high blood pressure and type 2 diabetes during pregnancy (which continued after our son was born). Things weren't going well in the last two months of pregnancy, but she wanted to continue to term unless things got worse.......and that's what this issue should be about -- CHOICE! If I was faced with a life-threatening situation, I would at least want the option of having the authority to pull the plug if I chose to do so, but these crazy, crusading anti-abortion groups want compulsory pregnancy.....since they are also against most forms of birth control too. Anybody who listens to their bullshit and takes them seriously, should ask 'what's in it for them'? Why are these overwhemingly male-run anti-abortion groups so passionately consumed with how a woman decides to handle pregnancy?

This Health Dept. page on pregnancy risks is longer than even the pages of fake risks that the pro life groups spam all over the internet! Now, this may be an issue of choice when we're dealing with consenting adults, but in the case of a pregnant 10 year old girl -- she is not in the position to make an informed decision, and considering that allowing pregnancy to continue at such a young age is playing russian roulette with their lives, there shouldn't even be an option for a preteen girl to have a baby in the first place! And if family and support networks conspired to keep it a secret, so that she would have the baby, then they should be prosecuted for child endangerment.

[koan]

Pre-eclampsia is an exception and not a rule to pregnancy as well. You can't just pick and choose facts based on what supports your conclusion.

You dismissed the link I posted to studies asking why they didn't have American studies, I posted confirmation of personal experience to back up the study and you call it an exception as if the link to the studies was already discarded. It is not discarded. There are as many risks to abortion as there are to childbirth.

[recovering conservative]

koan;1343204 wrote: Pre-eclampsia is an exception and not a rule to pregnancy as well. You can't just pick and choose facts based on what supports your conclusion.

You dismissed the link I posted to studies asking why they didn't have American studies, I posted confirmation of personal experience to back up the study and you call it an exception as if the link to the studies was already discarded. It is not discarded. There are as many risks to abortion as there are to childbirth.


I dismissed that link because a conference of American leading health experts in 2003 did not make the same alarming statements about the health risks of abortion. They provided a more reasoned conclusion from the same data. And that site using statements from doctors in Finland didn't seem to get around to posting actual numbers. What is the level of risk involved?

And you didn't acknowledge that even though pregnancy and childbirth has been a normal part of human society since time immemorial, there are health risks involved with pregnancy and childbirth, as my wife experienced when she was pregnant. The risks are actually higher than the risks involved with first and 2nd trimester abortions. And as the Star article noted, a lot of the risks being claimed by anti-abortion crusaders are totally made up! So they are actually causing harm when they set up their fake pregnancy crisis centers and interfere with the lives of teenage girls.

[koan]

So, you think real life decisions of what is right for this girl should be based on percentages instead of the reality that something could go wrong no matter what they do? The people in the best position to choose which risks they'd rather take are the girl and her mother.

I think we both agree that risks are present in either option.

[koan]

As a final note, because I feel I've said what I had to say here, I never claimed there was greater risk to abortion just that it also has risks, and things seem to have worked out that the baby was born healthy and the girl was healthy after the birth so none of these dramatic possibilities are relevant to the case. If the girl had been forced to abortion and had her womb destroyed we'd not have heard the story in the news.

They rolled the dice and it worked out for them. Maybe they were just lucky but I don't see how it's any of our business. If the girl writes her memoirs ten years down the road and declares she hates her mother for the choice made then I could see raising moral outrage though it will never answer what would have happened if they'd made a different choice. Sometimes life just sucks no matter what choices you make.

[recovering conservative]

koan;1343228 wrote: So, you think real life decisions of what is right for this girl should be based on percentages instead of the reality that something could go wrong no matter what they do? The people in the best position to choose which risks they'd rather take are the girl and her mother.

I think we both agree that risks are present in either option.


The risks involved in having a ten year old girl deliver a baby are greater than an early abortion. And no, it should not be up to the mother and her child - who is a minor, and not legally able to make such decisions. It should be up to the doctor or some medical panel to decide what's in the best interests of the child. The fact that the girl was pregnant, shows some negligence on her mother's part; and failing to disclose the pregnancy to their doctor, or any authorities, should make her liable for prosecution.

[recovering conservative]

koan;1343230 wrote: As a final note, because I feel I've said what I had to say here, I never claimed there was greater risk to abortion just that it also has risks, and things seem to have worked out that the baby was born healthy and the girl was healthy after the birth so none of these dramatic possibilities are relevant to the case. If the girl had been forced to abortion and had her womb destroyed we'd not have heard the story in the news.
The alternative universe religious media would have made a girl, who was harmed by an abortion, a banner headline!

They rolled the dice and it worked out for them. Maybe they were just lucky but I don't see how it's any of our business. If the girl writes her memoirs ten years down the road and declares she hates her mother for the choice made then I could see raising moral outrage though it will never answer what would have happened if they'd made a different choice. Sometimes life just sucks no matter what choices you make.
Yes, they were just lucky! That is -- assuming that the girl was in fact 10 years old, which is being disputed.

And my final note is that things that haven't been discussed -- like fetal rights -- shouldn't even become an issue until a fetus is at least well past 20 weeks -- when higher brain development begins, and possible ability to sense pain. Before that, the fetal arguments about denial of human potentials, are not enough to justify interfering with the choices of pregnant women.