One of the ethical requirements of a Just War is that it stands a prospect of success. Starting or continuing any war which ends in a foregone defeat is considered unjust. Does anyone pretend the current civil war in Libya is succeeding in bringing Colonel Gaddafi's government down?
Does anyone pretend any longer that the Western air strikes are designed to protect civilian populations, as opposed to protecting the armed rebels in their advance toward Tripoli? Because those armed rebels are in no way civilians, not behaving the way they're behaving. They're a proxy army and they're the reason fighting's taking place, they're not defensive. If they retired back to their homes and Western air superiority guaranteed no Libyan Air Force bombing of their positions that would, perhaps, be in accord with the UN resolution.
Close air support of the armed rebel push on the capital is nothing to do with defending civilians at all. On the contrary, it endangers far more civilians while spreading the conflict across the country; and rather than using this contentious word "civilian" when referring to armed groups with heavy machine guns and rocket launchers, may we perhaps call everyone firing a gun a combatant? That leaves "civilian" for the poor sods cowering at the back of their kitchen hoping to avoid the crossfire.
What we're watching is illegal attempted regime change against a ticking clock. It should be called off now before the death toll escalates.
The USA Position on Libya
The USA Position on Libya
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
posted by spot
One of the ethical requirements of a Just War is that it stands a prospect of success.
According to that one and the other five gaddafi is engaged in a just war against insurgents and the civilians killed are merely the unfortunate collateral damage. There is no such thing as a just war there is just war. The only justifucation you need is to win. Same with rebellion, the only just rebellion is one that is won, then it becomes a successful revolution.
All wars are caused by competition for resources or nowadays that dreadful concept of hearts and minds - though I dare say you could argue the religious wars of the past were for hearts and minds. Whatever the reason the victor writes the story
One of the ethical requirements of a Just War is that it stands a prospect of success.
According to that one and the other five gaddafi is engaged in a just war against insurgents and the civilians killed are merely the unfortunate collateral damage. There is no such thing as a just war there is just war. The only justifucation you need is to win. Same with rebellion, the only just rebellion is one that is won, then it becomes a successful revolution.
All wars are caused by competition for resources or nowadays that dreadful concept of hearts and minds - though I dare say you could argue the religious wars of the past were for hearts and minds. Whatever the reason the victor writes the story
The USA Position on Libya
gmc;1356525 wrote: Whatever the reason the victor writes the storyMaybe in his own newspapers. The current victor is getting a rough press across much of the world right now. Rabid pack animals, news editors.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
spot;1356514 wrote: They're a proxy army and they're the reason fighting's taking place, they're not defensive.
Here's where I get to ask you for something to back up your statement.
That's a very big accusation and I've scoured and found nothing but opinion and conspiracy theory to back it up.
Here's where I get to ask you for something to back up your statement.
That's a very big accusation and I've scoured and found nothing but opinion and conspiracy theory to back it up.
The USA Position on Libya
koan;1356589 wrote: Here's where I get to ask you for something to back up your statement.
That's a very big accusation and I've scoured and found nothing but opinion and conspiracy theory to back it up.
Good lord, William Hague just said only yesterday that the old UN ban on arming their side was, in his opinion, lifted by this month's Resolution 1973. How much more proxy or army can you get? And they were, according to all the newspapers, advancing and taking cities along the coastline toward Tripoli, which sounds pretty undefensive in my book. What am I missing?
That's a very big accusation and I've scoured and found nothing but opinion and conspiracy theory to back it up.
Good lord, William Hague just said only yesterday that the old UN ban on arming their side was, in his opinion, lifted by this month's Resolution 1973. How much more proxy or army can you get? And they were, according to all the newspapers, advancing and taking cities along the coastline toward Tripoli, which sounds pretty undefensive in my book. What am I missing?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
Why is it that the media and many others are calling this America's war when it was France and Britain that were pushing for action?
The USA Position on Libya
koan;1356593 wrote: Why is it that the media and many others are calling this America's war when it was France and Britain that were pushing for action?
Why on earth is America bombing Libya at all? I'd call it America's war because most of the ordnance dropped on the country has been Uncle Sam's.
Why on earth is America bombing Libya at all? I'd call it America's war because most of the ordnance dropped on the country has been Uncle Sam's.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
spot;1356594 wrote: Why on earth is America bombing Libya at all? I'd call it America's war because most of the ordnance dropped on the country has been Uncle Sam's.
They happen to have a lot of it. So they offered what they could. Having a bigger stick doesn't mean you were the one who started the fight. I don't see how it can be their war no matter how many bombs they drop since they aren't the one who started it. Obama, at one point, actually got criticised for humming and hawing too long before he joined in.
They happen to have a lot of it. So they offered what they could. Having a bigger stick doesn't mean you were the one who started the fight. I don't see how it can be their war no matter how many bombs they drop since they aren't the one who started it. Obama, at one point, actually got criticised for humming and hawing too long before he joined in.
The USA Position on Libya
koan;1356595 wrote: They happen to have a lot of it. So they offered what they could. Having a bigger stick doesn't mean you were the one who started the fight. I don't see how it can be their war no matter how many bombs they drop since they aren't the one who started it. Obama, at one point, actually got criticised for humming and hawing too long before he joined in.
It's just as well I've not been untowardly critical of the USA in this thread then, isn't it. The only posts which mention the US other than in passing are 45,54,65 and 67. I'd say the main thrust of my posts has been critical of Western governments, not the USA as such. By all means correct me if you feel I'm wrong.
I've mentioned the destabilization of non-aligned countries as being a predominantly US tactic, and I reckon that's accurate. If that's what triggered off the fighting in Libya then they have much to answer for. I've said that on the track record of the CIA, this uprising has a familiar smell to it. Whether that's due to long-term fostering of Libyan exiles or short-term opportunism I'd not care to guess.
You're of the opinion the CIA's squeaky-clean in this instance but I'm damned if I know what makes you think so.
It's just as well I've not been untowardly critical of the USA in this thread then, isn't it. The only posts which mention the US other than in passing are 45,54,65 and 67. I'd say the main thrust of my posts has been critical of Western governments, not the USA as such. By all means correct me if you feel I'm wrong.
I've mentioned the destabilization of non-aligned countries as being a predominantly US tactic, and I reckon that's accurate. If that's what triggered off the fighting in Libya then they have much to answer for. I've said that on the track record of the CIA, this uprising has a familiar smell to it. Whether that's due to long-term fostering of Libyan exiles or short-term opportunism I'd not care to guess.
You're of the opinion the CIA's squeaky-clean in this instance but I'm damned if I know what makes you think so.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
There would be the small matter of North Africa and the Middle East being in a huge turmoil of multiple governments being overthrown and you know how a fever catches. This isn't a matter of nothing going on then suddenly there's a war.
Also, I recall falling asleep watching a documentary featuring Gaddafi during your visit to Vancouver but, despite having fallen asleep, I do recall him saying that every man, woman, and child was taught to use weapons in his country so they could defend themselves and be prepared for anything. (paraphrased) That could be why they didn't opt for peaceful revolution.
I'd also note that Gaddafi's coup was bloodless because the King was out of town at the time getting medical treatment in Turkey.
Also, I recall falling asleep watching a documentary featuring Gaddafi during your visit to Vancouver but, despite having fallen asleep, I do recall him saying that every man, woman, and child was taught to use weapons in his country so they could defend themselves and be prepared for anything. (paraphrased) That could be why they didn't opt for peaceful revolution.
I'd also note that Gaddafi's coup was bloodless because the King was out of town at the time getting medical treatment in Turkey.
-
Maristar87
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:47 am
The USA Position on Libya
I think that morally, we should probably do something about it (doesn't have to be huge.) However, life here is hell. I haven't been able to afford health insurance for 5 years, right now I'm unemployed. Recently, an uncle of mine died because he couldn't get any medical care. Another relative of mine is homeless and living in a car. We're doing everything we can do, and there's very little jobs or opportunity for advancement out there. Nobody can take care of themselves. I'm seriously considering moving to either Canada or England.
The USA Position on Libya
TruthBringer;1355846 wrote: One word. Bullshit.
Those polls are all Bullshit. Do you really believe any American with their head on straight would ever support a THIRD war in the Middle East when we are already tiring of our first two? We aren't stupid. Our country is broke, we are on the brink of economic collapse, and they're trying to tell us that 60% of Americans are in favor of spreading our military even thinner than it already is......
Sure. Those polls are all fake. This just proves it even more.
You started out strong but became kind of flaccid near the end there. Is there a fake poll place filled with people scheming fake polls and poll answers in some run down building buried in a dark alley somewhere?
Those polls are all Bullshit. Do you really believe any American with their head on straight would ever support a THIRD war in the Middle East when we are already tiring of our first two? We aren't stupid. Our country is broke, we are on the brink of economic collapse, and they're trying to tell us that 60% of Americans are in favor of spreading our military even thinner than it already is......
Sure. Those polls are all fake. This just proves it even more.
You started out strong but became kind of flaccid near the end there. Is there a fake poll place filled with people scheming fake polls and poll answers in some run down building buried in a dark alley somewhere?
I AM AWESOME MAN
The USA Position on Libya
So, how's it going?
Do we still think, now that a bit of time's past, the rebels are just a bunch of idealist civilians? I'm not saying there were no heroic unarmed protesters but I doubt they have much to do with the 30-transporter tank column which was strafed by NATO this week and turned out to be rebels headed for Tripoli.
Do we think, now that a bit of time's past, the death toll is higher than suppressing the protests would have been? Do we think it's all over or that it's going to mount horribly?
Is anyone daft enough to think the current Libyan government is going to be toppled by military means? And if not, why is NATO egging what started as protests into civil war? Who is NATO trying to damage?
Colonel Gadaffi wrote his political epitaph on Tuesday, it was in a local Tripoli newspaper and an academic's translated it without comment in the interests of educating whoever sees it. I think there's more truth in what he wrote than in the propagandist "thug" labels the papers have been screaming for the last month.I am under attack by the biggest force in military history, my little African son, Obama wants to kill me, to take away the freedom of our country, to take away our free housing, our free medicine, our free education, our free food, and replace it with American style thievery, called “capitalism,” but all of us in the Third World know what that means, it means corporations run the countries, run the world, and the people suffer, so, there is no alternative for me, I must make my stand [...]
http://www.todaysalternativenews.com/in ... es[1]=9734
Meanwhile, will foreign governments please stop feeding money and arms to these killers?
Do we still think, now that a bit of time's past, the rebels are just a bunch of idealist civilians? I'm not saying there were no heroic unarmed protesters but I doubt they have much to do with the 30-transporter tank column which was strafed by NATO this week and turned out to be rebels headed for Tripoli.
Do we think, now that a bit of time's past, the death toll is higher than suppressing the protests would have been? Do we think it's all over or that it's going to mount horribly?
Is anyone daft enough to think the current Libyan government is going to be toppled by military means? And if not, why is NATO egging what started as protests into civil war? Who is NATO trying to damage?
Colonel Gadaffi wrote his political epitaph on Tuesday, it was in a local Tripoli newspaper and an academic's translated it without comment in the interests of educating whoever sees it. I think there's more truth in what he wrote than in the propagandist "thug" labels the papers have been screaming for the last month.I am under attack by the biggest force in military history, my little African son, Obama wants to kill me, to take away the freedom of our country, to take away our free housing, our free medicine, our free education, our free food, and replace it with American style thievery, called “capitalism,” but all of us in the Third World know what that means, it means corporations run the countries, run the world, and the people suffer, so, there is no alternative for me, I must make my stand [...]
http://www.todaysalternativenews.com/in ... es[1]=9734
Meanwhile, will foreign governments please stop feeding money and arms to these killers?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
The everyday media here treated that letter as some kind of a joke. They used words like "rambling", "incoherent" and "rant" all while oozing disdain. They only used a few sentences from it at one point. I don't know what to think about it as I have never been informed adequately and correctly by the western media about all things Libyan.
What am I supposed to think? Maybe I'm not supposed to think at all, maybe I'm just supposed to fall in line.
What am I supposed to think? Maybe I'm not supposed to think at all, maybe I'm just supposed to fall in line.
The USA Position on Libya
Reading it at least lets you decide whether it's rambling, incoherent or a rant. Whether he's being honest is another question, one I'm in no position to judge. I see no reason to disbelieve him, I see many reasons to disbelieve his detractors. His detractors have, after all, slaughtered and destroyed their way across as much of the planet as they felt safe despoiling in the name of so-called "democracy" and the redistribution of wealth and power toward the wealthy and powerful.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
spot;1357350 wrote: Reading it at least lets you decide whether it's rambling, incoherent or a rant. Whether he's being honest is another question, one I'm in no position to judge. I see no reason to disbelieve him, I see many reasons to disbelieve his detractors. His detractors have, after all, slaughtered and destroyed their way across as much of the planet as they felt safe despoiling in the name of so-called "democracy" and the redistribution of wealth and power toward the wealthy and powerful.
Oh, it's coherent. It's not particularly rambling considering the purpose of the literature. It's not exactly a rant as, though he is labeling and colouring events with his own perspective, it sounds more like a sigh than a yell. Whether or not it's honest is the key.
I stood up to attacks from that cowboy Reagan, when
he killed my adopted orphaned daughter,
he was trying to kill me, instead he killed that poor innocent child,
Is an intriguing example. Gaddafi adopted the girl while she was lying there dying. He didn't know her previously. The way he writes it makes it sound quite different. It's all in how one puts words together and in what order. He can tell the truth and still be lying. That doesn't make it any better than a bald lie.
I'd have been more impressed with him if he could present his case without bull. If he has to bullshit then he must not feel his case is good enough without the lies.
Oh, it's coherent. It's not particularly rambling considering the purpose of the literature. It's not exactly a rant as, though he is labeling and colouring events with his own perspective, it sounds more like a sigh than a yell. Whether or not it's honest is the key.
I stood up to attacks from that cowboy Reagan, when
he killed my adopted orphaned daughter,
he was trying to kill me, instead he killed that poor innocent child,
Is an intriguing example. Gaddafi adopted the girl while she was lying there dying. He didn't know her previously. The way he writes it makes it sound quite different. It's all in how one puts words together and in what order. He can tell the truth and still be lying. That doesn't make it any better than a bald lie.
I'd have been more impressed with him if he could present his case without bull. If he has to bullshit then he must not feel his case is good enough without the lies.
The USA Position on Libya
koan;1357357 wrote: Gaddafi adopted the girl while she was lying there dying. He didn't know her previously. The way he writes it makes it sound quite different. It's all in how one puts words together and in what order. He can tell the truth and still be lying. That doesn't make it any better than a bald lie.I'd be interested to know the basis on which you state that to be true with such total conviction.
The first mention of Hana in the public record, as far as I can see, is on the day following the night bombing raid. Several reporters on the spot in Tripoli refer to her death, name her, agree she was 15 months old and quote the family pediatrician that she was "Qaddafi's adopted daughter". It would, I think you'd agree, have been unlikely that any English paper would have carried a record of her adoption before she was killed in the bombing raid.
So, who is it you're believing and why? Is it just that you'd like it to be true? What's likeliest?
There's no indication in any contemporary report that Colonel Gaddafi went to any hospital before these reports were printed.
The first mention of Hana in the public record, as far as I can see, is on the day following the night bombing raid. Several reporters on the spot in Tripoli refer to her death, name her, agree she was 15 months old and quote the family pediatrician that she was "Qaddafi's adopted daughter". It would, I think you'd agree, have been unlikely that any English paper would have carried a record of her adoption before she was killed in the bombing raid.
So, who is it you're believing and why? Is it just that you'd like it to be true? What's likeliest?
There's no indication in any contemporary report that Colonel Gaddafi went to any hospital before these reports were printed.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
yawn.
Colonel Muammar Gaddafi adopted a young girl as his daughter just as she was dying from her injuries, and to this day journalists often repeat the line that his daughter was killed in the bombing. It was a particularly clever propaganda stroke.
BBC News - Gaddafi propaganda fails to convince
Colonel Muammar Gaddafi adopted a young girl as his daughter just as she was dying from her injuries, and to this day journalists often repeat the line that his daughter was killed in the bombing. It was a particularly clever propaganda stroke.
BBC News - Gaddafi propaganda fails to convince
The USA Position on Libya
koan;1357357 wrote: I'd have been more impressed with him if he could present his case without bull. If he has to bullshit then he must not feel his case is good enough without the lies.I'd be interested in seeing a response to the first four paragraphs of http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/gener ... ost1357276
I'm in no position to outguess the verdict, but I'd like to see a fair externally-monitored referendum across the whole of Libya into yes or no, retain the existing Libyan constitution and Leadership or replace both with a new democratic parliamentary basis of government. You will, no doubt, feel the result would be a resounding dismissal of the Colonel. I'm not sure you'd be right. I doubt we'll ever get a chance to find out. I certainly doubt that the rebels would countenance any such question ever being put.
I'm in no position to outguess the verdict, but I'd like to see a fair externally-monitored referendum across the whole of Libya into yes or no, retain the existing Libyan constitution and Leadership or replace both with a new democratic parliamentary basis of government. You will, no doubt, feel the result would be a resounding dismissal of the Colonel. I'm not sure you'd be right. I doubt we'll ever get a chance to find out. I certainly doubt that the rebels would countenance any such question ever being put.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
koan;1357368 wrote: yawn.Thank you. I'll write to John Simpson and ask his basis for saying it, since he provides none. If I get a response I'll pass it into the thread. I note also that even John Simpson makes no suggestion that "He didn't know her previously" - the way you write it makes it sound quite different.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
spot;1357370 wrote: Thank you. I'll write to John Simpson and ask his basis for saying it, since he provides none. If I get a response I'll pass it into the thread.
That's not where I originally read it. I came across it more than once while doing my initial research at the start of our discussion. The point where I said I'd finally had a chance to look. I yawned because I'd expected you to go looking yourself before questioning it. I don't usually write something like that without having first been convinced of it.
Go ahead and ask though. His sources will likely be more impressive.
That's not where I originally read it. I came across it more than once while doing my initial research at the start of our discussion. The point where I said I'd finally had a chance to look. I yawned because I'd expected you to go looking yourself before questioning it. I don't usually write something like that without having first been convinced of it.
Go ahead and ask though. His sources will likely be more impressive.
The USA Position on Libya
spot;1357369 wrote: I'd be interested in seeing a response to the first four paragraphs of http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/gener ... ost1357276
I'm in no position to outguess the verdict, but I'd like to see a fair externally-monitored referendum across the whole of Libya into yes or no, retain the existing Libyan constitution and Leadership or replace both with a new democratic parliamentary basis of government. You will, no doubt, feel the result would be a resounding dismissal of the Colonel. I'm not sure you'd be right. I doubt we'll ever get a chance to find out. I certainly doubt that the rebels would countenance any such question ever being put.
That's originally what I'd been hoping could have been ascertained. You assured me that such numbers are impossible to attain. My problem with Gaddafi in this area is the law he passed making dissidents subject to execution. Whether he actually killed many or not becomes irrelevant after that. He made it illegal to not approve of him.
I'm in no position to outguess the verdict, but I'd like to see a fair externally-monitored referendum across the whole of Libya into yes or no, retain the existing Libyan constitution and Leadership or replace both with a new democratic parliamentary basis of government. You will, no doubt, feel the result would be a resounding dismissal of the Colonel. I'm not sure you'd be right. I doubt we'll ever get a chance to find out. I certainly doubt that the rebels would countenance any such question ever being put.
That's originally what I'd been hoping could have been ascertained. You assured me that such numbers are impossible to attain. My problem with Gaddafi in this area is the law he passed making dissidents subject to execution. Whether he actually killed many or not becomes irrelevant after that. He made it illegal to not approve of him.
The USA Position on Libya
Of course I went looking before questioning it. I found some nauseating Reaganite Republican propagandists all smearing like Ann Coulter.
What puzzles me is that some Americans remember that warmonger with affection. His administration sold weapons to the Ayatollah-led revolutionary Iranians in order to be able to fund a privately contracted Contra army of terrorists to bring down the popularly elected Sandinista government, after Congress refused to fund US intervention, and he's remembered fondly? I take that to suggest those Americans still believe they're exceptional, still immune from valid criticism and still the only people on the planet who matter at all. As with most post-WW2 US presidents, he oversaw more killing than Gadaffi ever did.
What puzzles me is that some Americans remember that warmonger with affection. His administration sold weapons to the Ayatollah-led revolutionary Iranians in order to be able to fund a privately contracted Contra army of terrorists to bring down the popularly elected Sandinista government, after Congress refused to fund US intervention, and he's remembered fondly? I take that to suggest those Americans still believe they're exceptional, still immune from valid criticism and still the only people on the planet who matter at all. As with most post-WW2 US presidents, he oversaw more killing than Gadaffi ever did.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
koan;1357372 wrote: That's originally what I'd been hoping could have been ascertained. You assured me that such numbers are impossible to attain. My problem with Gaddafi in this area is the law he passed making dissidents subject to execution. Whether he actually killed many or not becomes irrelevant after that. He made it illegal to not approve of him.
I'll tell you how to find out in retrospect. When they get to a post-Gadaffi post-Mubarrak post-liberation "democratic" election, in Libya and in Egypt and in Iraq (assuming the US actually leaves), check whether there's a list of prospective candidates who were barred from standing. That will tell you whether the majority has a voice or whether it's just being conducted in a round of "four legs good, two legs bad".
I'll tell you how to find out in retrospect. When they get to a post-Gadaffi post-Mubarrak post-liberation "democratic" election, in Libya and in Egypt and in Iraq (assuming the US actually leaves), check whether there's a list of prospective candidates who were barred from standing. That will tell you whether the majority has a voice or whether it's just being conducted in a round of "four legs good, two legs bad".
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
It sounds as if you've changed your mind about Gaddafi winning the fight.
The USA Position on Libya
Winning in what sense? I think I said earlier that I thought he'd still be the Libyan Leader in Tripoli at the end of this year. I don't think anyone could call that winning. I think Western governments are tearing Libya apart for their own ends, making use of Libyan exiles and the excuse of a local insurrection around Benghazi. The losers are the people of Libya, regardless of what settlement is arrived at. If the exiles form a national government then Libya's lost its independence. If they fail to form a national government then they and their Western backers will have killed an awful lot of people to very little purpose. Neither of those results is a win for any Libyan.
The West has demonized yet another non-aligned government, I'd hate to see any benefit to those politicians who made it happen, it would only encourage their successors to do it again elsewhere.
The West has demonized yet another non-aligned government, I'd hate to see any benefit to those politicians who made it happen, it would only encourage their successors to do it again elsewhere.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
spot;1357374 wrote: I'll tell you how to find out in retrospect. When they get to a post-Gadaffi post-Mubarrak post-liberation "democratic" election, in Libya and in Egypt ...
spot;1357377 wrote: ...I think I said earlier that I thought he'd still be the Libyan Leader in Tripoli at the end of this year. I don't think anyone could call that winning....
You can pick on my choice of word, but there is an obvious change of prediction there.
spot wrote: I think Western governments are tearing Libya apart for their own ends, making use of Libyan exiles and the excuse of a local insurrection around Benghazi. The losers are the people of Libya, regardless of what settlement is arrived at. If the exiles form a national government then Libya's lost its independence. If they fail to form a national government then they and their Western backers will have killed an awful lot of people to very little purpose. Neither of those results is a win for any Libyan.
The West has demonized yet another non-aligned government, I'd hate to see any benefit to those politicians who made it happen, it would only encourage their successors to do it again elsewhere.
whoa, boy.
France jumped in first. Before that, Libyan people were protesting and organizing a rebellion. The way I see it, the Libyan rebels demonized Gaddafi and they're in a much better position to decide on the matter than you or I. I have yet to see any evidence that the rebels were planted by the West. I hear lots of press about how this is Obama's war and its sounding rather like erasing the evidence and rewriting current history.
spot;1357377 wrote: ...I think I said earlier that I thought he'd still be the Libyan Leader in Tripoli at the end of this year. I don't think anyone could call that winning....
You can pick on my choice of word, but there is an obvious change of prediction there.
spot wrote: I think Western governments are tearing Libya apart for their own ends, making use of Libyan exiles and the excuse of a local insurrection around Benghazi. The losers are the people of Libya, regardless of what settlement is arrived at. If the exiles form a national government then Libya's lost its independence. If they fail to form a national government then they and their Western backers will have killed an awful lot of people to very little purpose. Neither of those results is a win for any Libyan.
The West has demonized yet another non-aligned government, I'd hate to see any benefit to those politicians who made it happen, it would only encourage their successors to do it again elsewhere.
whoa, boy.
France jumped in first. Before that, Libyan people were protesting and organizing a rebellion. The way I see it, the Libyan rebels demonized Gaddafi and they're in a much better position to decide on the matter than you or I. I have yet to see any evidence that the rebels were planted by the West. I hear lots of press about how this is Obama's war and its sounding rather like erasing the evidence and rewriting current history.
The USA Position on Libya
I suspect John Simpson's response will be: Barbara Slavin
In 1986, the American air strikes against Libya included an attack on the barracks where Muammar al-Gaddafi was known to be sleeping. It was claimed that the attack resulted in the death of Qaddafi's infant daughter but reporter Barbara Slavin of USA Today who was in Libya at the time, set the record straight. "His adopted daughter was not killed," she said. "An infant girl was killed. I actually saw her body. She was adopted posthumously by Gadhafi. She was not related to Gadhafi."
History of assassination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In 1986, the American air strikes against Libya included an attack on the barracks where Muammar al-Gaddafi was known to be sleeping. It was claimed that the attack resulted in the death of Qaddafi's infant daughter but reporter Barbara Slavin of USA Today who was in Libya at the time, set the record straight. "His adopted daughter was not killed," she said. "An infant girl was killed. I actually saw her body. She was adopted posthumously by Gadhafi. She was not related to Gadhafi."
History of assassination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The USA Position on Libya
I keep on not saying this is US-led aggression, and you keep on trying to make it look as though I have. They're not my words, this is not "Obama's War" and I don't need reining in. I've referred to the local insurrection rather than tried to deny it. Regardless of the uncounted deaths of Libyans being meted out by Western pilots from the absolute safety of their cockpits, the insurrection is going nowhere and neither, from a military perspective, is it going to. Whether a political settlement might be arrived at is another matter.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
koan;1357380 wrote: I suspect John Simpson's response will be: Barbara Slavin
In 1986, the American air strikes against Libya included an attack on the barracks where Muammar al-Gaddafi was known to be sleeping. It was claimed that the attack resulted in the death of Qaddafi's infant daughter but reporter Barbara Slavin of USA Today who was in Libya at the time, set the record straight. "His adopted daughter was not killed," she said. "An infant girl was killed. I actually saw her body. She was adopted posthumously by Gadhafi. She was not related to Gadhafi."
History of assassination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That's a really interesting source. I've corrected the Wikipedia cite link, the one they had wasn't pointing anywhere. It should have shown Sex For Gadhafi Interviews?
So. Barbara Slavin allegedly claimed it, and she allegedly waited eighteen years before ever saying it, and she allegedly said it at a meeting in Washington on 31 March 2004, and she's never said it anywhere in print herself, she's just reported as having said it by Cliff Kincaid, who Barbara Slavin herself describes as "president of America's Survival, a conservative, anti-U.N. group".
Do you know what? I think she'd have written about it herself if it were so. And nowhere in her thousands of news articles on Nexis has she ever done so. You'd think, as one of the world's top war correspondents, with first-hand witness testimony of that magnitude, she'd have mentioned it at least once under her own byline.
So does it sound fishy to you?
Here, this is from the day after the bombing. It's one of dozens telling the same plain facts - that civilians had died at the hands of US pilots. That, it seems to me, is the one constant thread from then until now.The Washington Post April 16, 1986, "Qaddafi's Daughter Reported Killed; Jittery Tripoli Displays Damage Amid Fears of New Raids"
From the early morning raids, at least 14 persons were counted dead by a reporter in one of the city morgues. Only one was in uniform and several, including children, were in pajamas. A few had lost limbs. At the Old Central Hospital, doctors said as many as 100 persons were being treated for serious injuries.
Doctors at a pediatric hospital announced that Hanna, a 1-year-old girl adopted by Qaddafi a few months ago, had died there from injuries in the attack.
Reporters were shown two children said to be among Qaddafi's five sons -- Sef Arab, 4, and Amis, 3. They lay hooked up to intensive care facilities, and were said to be in serious condition. Muffa said they were bleeding from the nose and ears as a result on the concussion from bombs that fell near them. Qaddafi's other daughter and three sons reportedly were not injured.
In 1986, the American air strikes against Libya included an attack on the barracks where Muammar al-Gaddafi was known to be sleeping. It was claimed that the attack resulted in the death of Qaddafi's infant daughter but reporter Barbara Slavin of USA Today who was in Libya at the time, set the record straight. "His adopted daughter was not killed," she said. "An infant girl was killed. I actually saw her body. She was adopted posthumously by Gadhafi. She was not related to Gadhafi."
History of assassination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That's a really interesting source. I've corrected the Wikipedia cite link, the one they had wasn't pointing anywhere. It should have shown Sex For Gadhafi Interviews?
So. Barbara Slavin allegedly claimed it, and she allegedly waited eighteen years before ever saying it, and she allegedly said it at a meeting in Washington on 31 March 2004, and she's never said it anywhere in print herself, she's just reported as having said it by Cliff Kincaid, who Barbara Slavin herself describes as "president of America's Survival, a conservative, anti-U.N. group".
Do you know what? I think she'd have written about it herself if it were so. And nowhere in her thousands of news articles on Nexis has she ever done so. You'd think, as one of the world's top war correspondents, with first-hand witness testimony of that magnitude, she'd have mentioned it at least once under her own byline.
So does it sound fishy to you?
Here, this is from the day after the bombing. It's one of dozens telling the same plain facts - that civilians had died at the hands of US pilots. That, it seems to me, is the one constant thread from then until now.The Washington Post April 16, 1986, "Qaddafi's Daughter Reported Killed; Jittery Tripoli Displays Damage Amid Fears of New Raids"
From the early morning raids, at least 14 persons were counted dead by a reporter in one of the city morgues. Only one was in uniform and several, including children, were in pajamas. A few had lost limbs. At the Old Central Hospital, doctors said as many as 100 persons were being treated for serious injuries.
Doctors at a pediatric hospital announced that Hanna, a 1-year-old girl adopted by Qaddafi a few months ago, had died there from injuries in the attack.
Reporters were shown two children said to be among Qaddafi's five sons -- Sef Arab, 4, and Amis, 3. They lay hooked up to intensive care facilities, and were said to be in serious condition. Muffa said they were bleeding from the nose and ears as a result on the concussion from bombs that fell near them. Qaddafi's other daughter and three sons reportedly were not injured.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
Actually, no. It sounds exactly like something Gaddafi would do. Kind of like shooting up a farmhouse and claiming it was destroyed by coalition shrapnel. And dragging bodies to locations hit by coalition bombing and claiming they died there.
The USA Position on Libya
I reversed it and tried looking for proof that she, Hanna, the 15 month old baby, was adopted. I found this:
6. One of the worst times in my family's life together was the US bombing raid on Tripoli and Benghazi (the two biggest cities in Libya) in 1986. I was only 14 at the time and my family were all together in our home in Tripoli. One night, without any warning, the bombers came and, for five minutes, rained rockets down on us. I was woken up by loud crashing sounds and explosions, it was absolutely terrifying. Our house had been directly hit. I knew that we had to go to a shelter which had been built within the house. Sadly, some of my brothers and sisters were too young to know what to do, and they became trapped in one part of the house when a corridor collapsed. They were stuck there until the rescue services arrived, and, when we dug them out we found that Hannah, my youngest sister, had died. She was just four years old.
Libya: News and Views: Dr. Mansour O. El-Kikhia: Saif Al-Islam Al-Gaddafi And The Telegraph
and that was under oath.
6. One of the worst times in my family's life together was the US bombing raid on Tripoli and Benghazi (the two biggest cities in Libya) in 1986. I was only 14 at the time and my family were all together in our home in Tripoli. One night, without any warning, the bombers came and, for five minutes, rained rockets down on us. I was woken up by loud crashing sounds and explosions, it was absolutely terrifying. Our house had been directly hit. I knew that we had to go to a shelter which had been built within the house. Sadly, some of my brothers and sisters were too young to know what to do, and they became trapped in one part of the house when a corridor collapsed. They were stuck there until the rescue services arrived, and, when we dug them out we found that Hannah, my youngest sister, had died. She was just four years old.
Libya: News and Views: Dr. Mansour O. El-Kikhia: Saif Al-Islam Al-Gaddafi And The Telegraph
and that was under oath.
The USA Position on Libya
It leaves me wondering how anyone's sick enough to sign up with the air force.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
It didn't leave you wondering how many months there are in 4 years?
The USA Position on Libya
Making Things Up At USA Today
There was never any evidence that Gadhafi had a daughter. A photo of his family before the bombing showed that he only had sons. But the claim about the “death” of his adopted daughter was advanced after the bombing to generate sympathy for Gadhafi. Foreign affairs reporter Barbara Slavin of USA Today was in Libya at the time, and she set the record straight. She recently told us, “His adopted daughter was not killed. An infant girl was killed. I actually saw her body. She was adopted posthumously by Gadhafi. She was not related to Gadhafi.” Yet we found a story from January 25th of this year, posted on the USA Today website, that referred to the 1986 attack, which “killed 37 people, including Gadhafi’s adopted daughter?” One of the amazing things about this story is that the age of Gadhafi’s daughter keeps changing. She has been described as 18 months old or 3-years-old. We found a story by Roland Flamini of UPI that referred to her being seven-years-old.
You might write to Cliff Kincaid as well.
Gaddafi does have a daughter, despite who he chose to be photographed with. Aside from that, the summary is pretty accurate to what I've been seeing. The poor Hanna who was 15 month, 18 months, 3 years, 4 years, or was it 7... or 8?
He seems to think Barbara said that too. I checked her twitter account and there is currently no outrage that she is being misquoted. You could try contacting her too if you're brave enough to enter TwitterZone.
There was never any evidence that Gadhafi had a daughter. A photo of his family before the bombing showed that he only had sons. But the claim about the “death” of his adopted daughter was advanced after the bombing to generate sympathy for Gadhafi. Foreign affairs reporter Barbara Slavin of USA Today was in Libya at the time, and she set the record straight. She recently told us, “His adopted daughter was not killed. An infant girl was killed. I actually saw her body. She was adopted posthumously by Gadhafi. She was not related to Gadhafi.” Yet we found a story from January 25th of this year, posted on the USA Today website, that referred to the 1986 attack, which “killed 37 people, including Gadhafi’s adopted daughter?” One of the amazing things about this story is that the age of Gadhafi’s daughter keeps changing. She has been described as 18 months old or 3-years-old. We found a story by Roland Flamini of UPI that referred to her being seven-years-old.
You might write to Cliff Kincaid as well.
Gaddafi does have a daughter, despite who he chose to be photographed with. Aside from that, the summary is pretty accurate to what I've been seeing. The poor Hanna who was 15 month, 18 months, 3 years, 4 years, or was it 7... or 8?
He seems to think Barbara said that too. I checked her twitter account and there is currently no outrage that she is being misquoted. You could try contacting her too if you're brave enough to enter TwitterZone.
The USA Position on Libya
koan;1357387 wrote: It didn't leave you wondering how many months there are in 4 years?
Not even slightly. I expect several girls called Hana were killed that morning. Even your claimed quote from Barbara Slavin refers to "An infant girl was killed. I actually saw her body" - not many people would use the word infant of a four year old. You believe what Cliff Kincaid said Barbara Slavin said, even though she never once wrote about it herself? That eliminates all your 3, 4, 7 or 8 year olds at a stroke then.
Every report I've seen from the newspapers the day after the raid - and I've seen around 15 on Nexis - say "15 months". That was undoubtedly what was being said in Tripoli originally. What you see subsequently are Chinese Whispers and have nothing to do with Libya at all.
Not even slightly. I expect several girls called Hana were killed that morning. Even your claimed quote from Barbara Slavin refers to "An infant girl was killed. I actually saw her body" - not many people would use the word infant of a four year old. You believe what Cliff Kincaid said Barbara Slavin said, even though she never once wrote about it herself? That eliminates all your 3, 4, 7 or 8 year olds at a stroke then.
Every report I've seen from the newspapers the day after the raid - and I've seen around 15 on Nexis - say "15 months". That was undoubtedly what was being said in Tripoli originally. What you see subsequently are Chinese Whispers and have nothing to do with Libya at all.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
koan;1357388 wrote: You might write to Cliff Kincaid as well.I wouldn't believe anything the man said. I would, however, believe Barbara Slavin since her lifelong world-class reputation as a journalist would be on the line. If she says it's an accurate quote then it's an accurate quote. At the moment, because I can find no trace of Barbara Slavin ever reporting it in any of her news reports, I think Cliff Kincaid invented it. I note that he provides no citation and that Nexis, a very extensive and accurate record of what many newspapers actually printed over the last thirty years, shows nothing like it even on extremely open searches like slavin AND tripoli AND adopt! AND daughter.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
You'll find Barbara Slavin at Barbara Slavin (barbaraslavin1) on Twitter
If it's a pack of right wing US conspiracy lies I'm sure she'd be interested in knowing what they're doing with her good name. I'd be quite shocked if BBC also had the audacity to use her name without confirming it with her first. But, perhaps she needs someone just like you to tell her where her good reputation is being dragged.
If it's a pack of right wing US conspiracy lies I'm sure she'd be interested in knowing what they're doing with her good name. I'd be quite shocked if BBC also had the audacity to use her name without confirming it with her first. But, perhaps she needs someone just like you to tell her where her good reputation is being dragged.
The USA Position on Libya
Did the BBC mention Barbara Slavin?
I am, I suppose, prepared to work out Twitter. Do I need an account?
What value did "conspiracy" add to your post, just then?
I am, I suppose, prepared to work out Twitter. Do I need an account?
What value did "conspiracy" add to your post, just then?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
spot;1357491 wrote: Did the BBC mention Barbara Slavin?
heehee. yes. that's how Mr Simpson got in the picture. You said you were going to write him.
I am, I suppose, prepared to work out Twitter. Do I need an account?
yep you need an account. I created one ages ago but have no idea what it is called anymore. I was following Kevin Smith of "Clerks" and "Jay and Silent Bob" then someone started following me and I freaked out... cuz, who the hell am I and why do they want to know??
What value did "conspiracy" add to your post, just then?
For the reference to appear in a number of places and all over wikipedia I figure there would have to be a conspiracy to try and implant false information as truth all over the internet. A concerted effort.
heehee. yes. that's how Mr Simpson got in the picture. You said you were going to write him.
I am, I suppose, prepared to work out Twitter. Do I need an account?
yep you need an account. I created one ages ago but have no idea what it is called anymore. I was following Kevin Smith of "Clerks" and "Jay and Silent Bob" then someone started following me and I freaked out... cuz, who the hell am I and why do they want to know??
What value did "conspiracy" add to your post, just then?
For the reference to appear in a number of places and all over wikipedia I figure there would have to be a conspiracy to try and implant false information as truth all over the internet. A concerted effort.
The USA Position on Libya
koan;1357493 wrote: heehee. yes. that's how Mr Simpson got in the picture. You said you were going to write him.Are you quite sure John Simpson or the BBC mentioned Barbara Slavin? because your BBC link doesn't mention her.
I have registered a Twitter account. I have twatted.
lunarcolony spot @
@barbaraslavin1 Is Sex For Gadhafi Interviews? accurate quote "adopted posthumously by Gadhafi" - it's widespread but nowhere from you on Nexis.
We shall see.
I have registered a Twitter account. I have twatted.
lunarcolony spot @
@barbaraslavin1 Is Sex For Gadhafi Interviews? accurate quote "adopted posthumously by Gadhafi" - it's widespread but nowhere from you on Nexis.
We shall see.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
spot;1357494 wrote: Are you quite sure John Simpson or the BBC mentioned Barbara Slavin? because your BBC link doesn't mention her.
I have registered a Twitter account. I have twatted.
lunarcolony spot @
@barbaraslavin1 Is Sex For Gadhafi Interviews? accurate quote "adopted posthumously by Gadhafi" - it's widespread but nowhere from you on Nexis.
We shall see.
Ah yes, true. Slavin turned out to be the primary and sole source of that info so I forgot he didn't use the quote on BBC.
Well done with Twitter. It's a nice way to make the record public for anyone else who really wants to know. And it goes straight to the supposed source.
I have registered a Twitter account. I have twatted.
lunarcolony spot @
@barbaraslavin1 Is Sex For Gadhafi Interviews? accurate quote "adopted posthumously by Gadhafi" - it's widespread but nowhere from you on Nexis.
We shall see.
Ah yes, true. Slavin turned out to be the primary and sole source of that info so I forgot he didn't use the quote on BBC.
Well done with Twitter. It's a nice way to make the record public for anyone else who really wants to know. And it goes straight to the supposed source.
The USA Position on Libya
You seem to have accepted Slavin as a reputable source so, while we wait for a response, I've located her opinion on current events here
...Average Libyans have zero say in the way they are governed. One Libyan told me on a visit there a decade ago that when it comes to internal politics, people are "like mice in a bag" -- forever shaken and kept off balance by repression and Gadhafi's whims...
The Obama administration should condemn the vicious crackdown on Libyans as vociferously as it has criticized other Middle Eastern regimes. After 41 years of Gadhafi, Libyans have a right to new and decent leadership.
...Average Libyans have zero say in the way they are governed. One Libyan told me on a visit there a decade ago that when it comes to internal politics, people are "like mice in a bag" -- forever shaken and kept off balance by repression and Gadhafi's whims...
The Obama administration should condemn the vicious crackdown on Libyans as vociferously as it has criticized other Middle Eastern regimes. After 41 years of Gadhafi, Libyans have a right to new and decent leadership.
The USA Position on Libya
koan;1357501 wrote: You seem to have accepted Slavin as a reputable source so, while we wait for a response, I've located her opinion on current eventsI've said I don't believe she'd lie about her experience as a foreign correspondent, I think her opinions are worth as much as a three-day-old bag of vomit. Professional integrity is one thing, being a gung-ho American Exceptionalist pressing for Imperial Dominion is another. We're consulting her as a reported eye witness, not as an impartial assessor.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
spot;1357503 wrote: I've said I don't believe she'd lie about her experience as a foreign correspondent, I think her opinions are worth as much as a three-day-old bag of vomit. Professional integrity is one thing, being a gung-ho American Exceptionalist pressing for Imperial Dominion is another. We're consulting her as a reported eye witness, not as an impartial assessor.
Well, I took "I would, however, believe Barbara Slavin since her lifelong world-class reputation as a journalist would be on the line." and read the words plainly, ending up with an implication that she is world-class journalist with a reputation.
Whether she is or not, she is a journalist who has been there. You are not. I've yet to see you provide any sources for your opinions and it's starting to feel like trying to convince someone in love that their mate has been sleeping around.
Well, I took "I would, however, believe Barbara Slavin since her lifelong world-class reputation as a journalist would be on the line." and read the words plainly, ending up with an implication that she is world-class journalist with a reputation.
Whether she is or not, she is a journalist who has been there. You are not. I've yet to see you provide any sources for your opinions and it's starting to feel like trying to convince someone in love that their mate has been sleeping around.
The USA Position on Libya
koan;1357516 wrote: Well, I took "I would, however, believe Barbara Slavin since her lifelong world-class reputation as a journalist would be on the line." and read the words plainly, ending up with an implication that she is world-class journalist with a reputation.
Whether she is or not, she is a journalist who has been there. You are not. I've yet to see you provide any sources for your opinions and it's starting to feel like trying to convince someone in love that their mate has been sleeping around.
My approach is through having read the Green Book. I approved of quite a bit Gaddafi suggested in there. It seems a good source for an opinion on his politics. Living in Tripoli would, I agree, provide a practical corrective.
Whether she is or not, she is a journalist who has been there. You are not. I've yet to see you provide any sources for your opinions and it's starting to feel like trying to convince someone in love that their mate has been sleeping around.
My approach is through having read the Green Book. I approved of quite a bit Gaddafi suggested in there. It seems a good source for an opinion on his politics. Living in Tripoli would, I agree, provide a practical corrective.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
spot;1357541 wrote: My approach is through having read the Green Book. I approved of quite a bit Gaddafi suggested in there. It seems a good source for an opinion on his politics.
I'm starting with the "top 10 quotes" from the Green Book, keeping in mind that such texts can have moments isolated from them in order to ridicule:
1. “Women, like men, are human beings. This is an incontestable truth… Women are different from men in form because they are females, just as all females in the kingdom of plants and animals differ from the male of their species… According to gynecologists women, unlike men, menstruate each month… Since men cannot be impregnated they do not experience the ailments that women do. She breastfeeds for nearly two years.”
2. “There are inevitable cycles of social history: the yellow race’s domination of the world, when it came from Asia, and the white race’s attempts at colonizing extensive areas of all continents of the world. Now, it is the turn of the black race to prevail in the world.”
3. “While it is democratically not permissible for an individual to own any information or publishing medium, all individuals have a natural right to self-expression by any means, even if such means were insane and meant to prove a person’s insanity.”
4. “Mandatory education is a coercive education that suppresses freedom. To impose specific teaching materials is a dictatorial act.”
5. “If a community of people wears white on a mournful occasion and another dresses in black, then one community would like white and dislike black and the other would like black and dislike white. Moreover, this attitude leaves a physical effect on the cells as well as on the genes in the body.”
6. “Sporting clubs which constitute the traditional sports institutions in the world today are rapacious social instruments. The grandstands of public athletic fields are actually constructed to obstruct access to the fields.”
7. “Placing a child in a day nursery is coercive and tyrannical and a violation of the child’s free and natural disposition.”
8. “Labour in return for wages is virtually the same as enslaving a human being. In a socialist society no person may own a private means of transportation for the purpose of renting to others, because this represents controlling the needs of others.”
9. “The democratic system is a cohesive structure whose foundation stones are firmly laid one above the other, the Basic People’s Conferences, the People’s Conferences, and the People’s Committees, which finally come together when the General People’s Conference convenes. There is absolutely no conception of democratic society other than this.”
10. “No representation of the people—representation is a falsehood. The mere existence of parliaments underlies the absence of the people, for democracy can only exist with the presence of the people and not in the presence of representatives of the people.”
“Freedom of expression,” Gaddafi also wrote in The Green Book, ‘is the right of every natural person, even if a person chooses to behave irrationally to express his or her insanity.”
eta source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/2011 ... op10quotes
Living in Tripoli would, I agree, provide a practical corrective.
Well, we've found a point we can agree on then.
I'm starting with the "top 10 quotes" from the Green Book, keeping in mind that such texts can have moments isolated from them in order to ridicule:
1. “Women, like men, are human beings. This is an incontestable truth… Women are different from men in form because they are females, just as all females in the kingdom of plants and animals differ from the male of their species… According to gynecologists women, unlike men, menstruate each month… Since men cannot be impregnated they do not experience the ailments that women do. She breastfeeds for nearly two years.”
2. “There are inevitable cycles of social history: the yellow race’s domination of the world, when it came from Asia, and the white race’s attempts at colonizing extensive areas of all continents of the world. Now, it is the turn of the black race to prevail in the world.”
3. “While it is democratically not permissible for an individual to own any information or publishing medium, all individuals have a natural right to self-expression by any means, even if such means were insane and meant to prove a person’s insanity.”
4. “Mandatory education is a coercive education that suppresses freedom. To impose specific teaching materials is a dictatorial act.”
5. “If a community of people wears white on a mournful occasion and another dresses in black, then one community would like white and dislike black and the other would like black and dislike white. Moreover, this attitude leaves a physical effect on the cells as well as on the genes in the body.”
6. “Sporting clubs which constitute the traditional sports institutions in the world today are rapacious social instruments. The grandstands of public athletic fields are actually constructed to obstruct access to the fields.”
7. “Placing a child in a day nursery is coercive and tyrannical and a violation of the child’s free and natural disposition.”
8. “Labour in return for wages is virtually the same as enslaving a human being. In a socialist society no person may own a private means of transportation for the purpose of renting to others, because this represents controlling the needs of others.”
9. “The democratic system is a cohesive structure whose foundation stones are firmly laid one above the other, the Basic People’s Conferences, the People’s Conferences, and the People’s Committees, which finally come together when the General People’s Conference convenes. There is absolutely no conception of democratic society other than this.”
10. “No representation of the people—representation is a falsehood. The mere existence of parliaments underlies the absence of the people, for democracy can only exist with the presence of the people and not in the presence of representatives of the people.”
“Freedom of expression,” Gaddafi also wrote in The Green Book, ‘is the right of every natural person, even if a person chooses to behave irrationally to express his or her insanity.”
eta source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/2011 ... op10quotes
Living in Tripoli would, I agree, provide a practical corrective.
Well, we've found a point we can agree on then.
The USA Position on Libya
Pulling quotes out of context is a complete mugs game, all you're doing is encouraging some prat who thinks he was being funny. The Green Book is very easy to find on the Internet, it's quite short and it's useful background. It would certainly make for a more reasonable conversation.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The USA Position on Libya
spot;1357556 wrote: Pulling quotes out of context is a complete mugs game, all you're doing is encouraging some prat who thinks he was being funny. The Green Book is very easy to find on the Internet, it's quite short and it's useful background. It would certainly make for a more reasonable conversation.
I acknowledged within the same post that it's an easy thing to do, pulling bits from a text like that. I do, nonetheless, find it rather odd that some of those words exist next to each other in a piece of literature meant to be taken seriously.
I acknowledged within the same post that it's an easy thing to do, pulling bits from a text like that. I do, nonetheless, find it rather odd that some of those words exist next to each other in a piece of literature meant to be taken seriously.
The USA Position on Libya
I would like to mention that I am trying to be both reasonable and fair in this discussion. I'm not convinced of the opposite, spot. You demand evidence yet offer none of your own. You condemn, judge and ridicule yet offer no basis for your opinions other than your own opinion.
I know you well enough to know that you can come up with something better. Please offer me something here. Tell me which parts of the Green Book you admire. That's a starting point that has positive potential.
I know you well enough to know that you can come up with something better. Please offer me something here. Tell me which parts of the Green Book you admire. That's a starting point that has positive potential.