oscar;1373596 wrote:
What led to the ladies arrest in the opening article was based purely on perception by a neighbour who took umbrage............
I believe the Legal definition of racial harassment is that the recipient perceives it to be, so a person can legally be racially offensive without knowing it.
It doesn't matter about the history of the Golliwogg and what It portrayed. The arguement as to weather It is offensive or not Is borne by the looney lefties TELLING us It is offensive.
Yes it does and No it's not
It can not be proved legally weather It Is or Is not. If It could It would have been made Illegal.
Kitchen knives are not illegal, but try waving one about up the High st on a Saturday afternoon
Any member of the black community who laughs at Punch could also be deemed racist for laughing at an Image of a grotesque white, humpbacked, wife beater with a large nose.
Only if the rest of the white audience were not laughing along too ?
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
My objection to Spot's post Is this:... He has an opinion and so do others but throw enough selective guff that only agree with the posters own opinion at the debate It was just make those who do not find something offensive begin to look offensive. It It those kind of people who are the problem and not the masses who find nothing offensive. It's saying... I find something offensive so you must all find It offensive also'... It is not the people who do not find It offensive that need to look at why they don't but the people who do.
I find the word Niger deeply offensive but I do not find what is basically a doll the same as Punch Is portrayed as offensive.
You are right, kitchen knives are not Illegal but In the wrong hands can kill. A doll In the wrong hands at worst will hurt someone's feelings.
The purpose of my thread was to ask If PC had gone too far In which a law abiding woman faced arrest for hurting some-one's feelings. There-fore, It matters not the history behind the Item but how It Is perceived.
Spot...... Perhaps you can find some documented, factual evidence to show that the majority of the black community find the doll offensive.... or are you just assuming they do?
I find the word Niger deeply offensive but I do not find what is basically a doll the same as Punch Is portrayed as offensive.
You are right, kitchen knives are not Illegal but In the wrong hands can kill. A doll In the wrong hands at worst will hurt someone's feelings.
The purpose of my thread was to ask If PC had gone too far In which a law abiding woman faced arrest for hurting some-one's feelings. There-fore, It matters not the history behind the Item but how It Is perceived.
Spot...... Perhaps you can find some documented, factual evidence to show that the majority of the black community find the doll offensive.... or are you just assuming they do?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
I personally don't find the golliwog offensive.
I understand that some people would find it offensive.
But it is not for me to decide whether golliwogs are offensive, the Law in its wisdom puts that down to the perception of the target of any offence.
Getting back to Golly in the window, was the Golly one of many displayed as part of a doll collection ?
Or was it maliciously displayed solely in order to cause distress ?
I understand that some people would find it offensive.
But it is not for me to decide whether golliwogs are offensive, the Law in its wisdom puts that down to the perception of the target of any offence.
Getting back to Golly in the window, was the Golly one of many displayed as part of a doll collection ?
Or was it maliciously displayed solely in order to cause distress ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
Bruv;1373605 wrote: I personally don't find the golliwog offensive.
I understand that some people would find it offensive.
But it is not for me to decide whether golliwogs are offensive, the Law in its wisdom puts that down to the perception of the target of any offence.
Getting back to Golly in the window, was the Golly one of many displayed as part of a doll collection ?
Or was it maliciously displayed solely in order to cause distress ?
That Is the Issue here and not the history of the doll.
Do you remember a few years ago when a farmer felt the full weight of plod after he had a china pig displayed In his window?
The parallel there is that no one would find a china ornament of a pig In a window offensive except the police officer who objected. Again, It shows that It down to perception on behalf of the complainer and not the masses.
I understand that some people would find it offensive.
But it is not for me to decide whether golliwogs are offensive, the Law in its wisdom puts that down to the perception of the target of any offence.
Getting back to Golly in the window, was the Golly one of many displayed as part of a doll collection ?
Or was it maliciously displayed solely in order to cause distress ?
That Is the Issue here and not the history of the doll.
Do you remember a few years ago when a farmer felt the full weight of plod after he had a china pig displayed In his window?
The parallel there is that no one would find a china ornament of a pig In a window offensive except the police officer who objected. Again, It shows that It down to perception on behalf of the complainer and not the masses.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
oscar;1373606 wrote:
Do you remember a few years ago when a farmer felt the full weight of plod after he had a china pig displayed In his window?
This one do you mean ?
With intent to cause offence, wouldn't you say ?
Mr Khan agreed that there were indeed other people who kept china pigs in their houses, to which Muslims have never objected.
"But if you display, for example, a poster in your front window and that poster is provocative to your neighbours then the poster is not private property just because it is in your house," he added
Do you remember a few years ago when a farmer felt the full weight of plod after he had a china pig displayed In his window?
This one do you mean ?
With intent to cause offence, wouldn't you say ?
Mr Khan agreed that there were indeed other people who kept china pigs in their houses, to which Muslims have never objected.
"But if you display, for example, a poster in your front window and that poster is provocative to your neighbours then the poster is not private property just because it is in your house," he added
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
Bruv;1373607 wrote: This one do you mean ?
With intent to cause offence, wouldn't you say ?
Mr Khan agreed that there were indeed other people who kept china pigs in their houses, to which Muslims have never objected.
"But if you display, for example, a poster in your front window and that poster is provocative to your neighbours then the poster is not private property just because it is in your house," he added No, this one:
Man's pig statue sparks row with police officer neighbour - Telegraph
With intent to cause offence, wouldn't you say ?
Mr Khan agreed that there were indeed other people who kept china pigs in their houses, to which Muslims have never objected.
"But if you display, for example, a poster in your front window and that poster is provocative to your neighbours then the poster is not private property just because it is in your house," he added No, this one:
Man's pig statue sparks row with police officer neighbour - Telegraph
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
oscar;1373600 wrote: Spot...... Perhaps you can find some documented, factual evidence to show that the majority of the black community find the doll offensive.... or are you just assuming they do?If it had ever been my opinion then I might try to support it. I can't imagine why you think it does, the notion has never crossed my mind and I've made no such assumption.
How you can fail to see the blatant connection between the Golliwog and the white performer dressed in Blackface costume is what's left me baffled. The Blackface costume predates the Golliwog. The Golliwog is a remnant of what was crassly comic and eventually destructive, corrosive and racially intolerable. These aren't opinions, they're statements about history.
How you can fail to see the blatant connection between the Golliwog and the white performer dressed in Blackface costume is what's left me baffled. The Blackface costume predates the Golliwog. The Golliwog is a remnant of what was crassly comic and eventually destructive, corrosive and racially intolerable. These aren't opinions, they're statements about history.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
spot;1373621 wrote: If it had ever been my opinion then I might try to support it. I can't imagine why you think it does, the notion has never crossed my mind and I've made no such assumption.
How you can fail to see the blatant connection between the Golliwog and the white performer dressed in Blackface costume is what's left me baffled. The Blackface costume predates the Golliwog. The Golliwog is a remnant of what was crassly comic and eventually destructive, corrosive and racially intolerable. These aren't opinions, they're statements about history.
I think the emboldened part could claim to be a fact but surely "of what was..." is an opinion?
How you can fail to see the blatant connection between the Golliwog and the white performer dressed in Blackface costume is what's left me baffled. The Blackface costume predates the Golliwog. The Golliwog is a remnant of what was crassly comic and eventually destructive, corrosive and racially intolerable. These aren't opinions, they're statements about history.
I think the emboldened part could claim to be a fact but surely "of what was..." is an opinion?
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
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Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
spot;1373621 wrote: If it had ever been my opinion then I might try to support it. I can't imagine why you think it does, the notion has never crossed my mind and I've made no such assumption.
How you can fail to see the blatant connection between the Golliwog and the white performer dressed in Blackface costume is what's left me baffled. The Blackface costume predates the Golliwog. The Golliwog is a remnant of what was crassly comic and eventually destructive, corrosive and racially intolerable. These aren't opinions, they're statements about history.
And how can you fail to see that the history of the doll is Irrelevant? It is how It Is perceived.
Because you think It Is offensive, does not mean It is.
Imagine the scenario where A black woman places a Punch figure In her lounge window next door to a white hump backed, big nosed man. Would she be arrested?
How you can fail to see the blatant connection between the Golliwog and the white performer dressed in Blackface costume is what's left me baffled. The Blackface costume predates the Golliwog. The Golliwog is a remnant of what was crassly comic and eventually destructive, corrosive and racially intolerable. These aren't opinions, they're statements about history.
And how can you fail to see that the history of the doll is Irrelevant? It is how It Is perceived.
Because you think It Is offensive, does not mean It is.
Imagine the scenario where A black woman places a Punch figure In her lounge window next door to a white hump backed, big nosed man. Would she be arrested?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
theia;1373625 wrote: I think the emboldened part could claim to be a fact but surely "of what was..." is an opinion?
The "of what was crassly comic and eventually destructive, corrosive and racially intolerable"? I'd have thought that was far and away the most obviously true aspect of the lot, and the most widely supported by those who've analysed it. Do you want to go down that path and see what we can find?
I think Blackface was comic in that many people laughed at it for many decades before it became a crass embarrassment. I note that it lasted perhaps thirty years longer as a popular art form in the UK than in the US.
The reason I consider it destructive and corrosive is that it predominantly depicted one race in the US making mock at the expense of another - De Camptown Races, with twenty blacked-up dancers doing their turkey-strut on stage, was surely mockery. Does that make Blackface singing performances racially intolerable these days? I'd be hard pressed to find any troupe still giving it a go and I'd put that down to the outrage they'd face if they tried. Consider how the UK would react if one of the 1970's Polly Wolly Doodle All De Day Mitchell Singers programs was put on as a repeat.
The "of what was crassly comic and eventually destructive, corrosive and racially intolerable"? I'd have thought that was far and away the most obviously true aspect of the lot, and the most widely supported by those who've analysed it. Do you want to go down that path and see what we can find?
I think Blackface was comic in that many people laughed at it for many decades before it became a crass embarrassment. I note that it lasted perhaps thirty years longer as a popular art form in the UK than in the US.
The reason I consider it destructive and corrosive is that it predominantly depicted one race in the US making mock at the expense of another - De Camptown Races, with twenty blacked-up dancers doing their turkey-strut on stage, was surely mockery. Does that make Blackface singing performances racially intolerable these days? I'd be hard pressed to find any troupe still giving it a go and I'd put that down to the outrage they'd face if they tried. Consider how the UK would react if one of the 1970's Polly Wolly Doodle All De Day Mitchell Singers programs was put on as a repeat.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
spot;1373634 wrote: The "of what was crassly comic and eventually destructive, corrosive and racially intolerable"? I'd have thought that was far and away the most obviously true aspect of the lot, and the most widely supported by those who've analysed it. Do you want to go down that path and see what we can find?
I think Blackface was comic in that many people laughed at it for many decades before it became a crass embarrassment. I note that it lasted perhaps thirty years longer as a popular art form in the UK than in the US.
The reason I consider it destructive and corrosive is that it predominantly depicted one race in the US making mock at the expense of another - De Camptown Races, with twenty blacked-up dancers doing their turkey-strut on stage, was surely mockery. Does that make Blackface singing performances racially intolerable these days? I'd be hard pressed to find any troupe still giving it a go and I'd put that down to the outrage they'd face if they tried. Consider how the UK would react if one of the 1970's Polly Wolly Doodle All De Day Mitchell Singers programs was put on as a repeat.
All you are doing, Is agreeing with arguements put forward on the net, I could equally find as many Items on the net that state the Golliwogg Is not deemed racist nor offensive and we will just go round In circles as we always do when you consider your opinion superior to that of others.
So... do you have any factual or documented evidence to show that the black population find the doll offensive. No more opinions please....
I think Blackface was comic in that many people laughed at it for many decades before it became a crass embarrassment. I note that it lasted perhaps thirty years longer as a popular art form in the UK than in the US.
The reason I consider it destructive and corrosive is that it predominantly depicted one race in the US making mock at the expense of another - De Camptown Races, with twenty blacked-up dancers doing their turkey-strut on stage, was surely mockery. Does that make Blackface singing performances racially intolerable these days? I'd be hard pressed to find any troupe still giving it a go and I'd put that down to the outrage they'd face if they tried. Consider how the UK would react if one of the 1970's Polly Wolly Doodle All De Day Mitchell Singers programs was put on as a repeat.
All you are doing, Is agreeing with arguements put forward on the net, I could equally find as many Items on the net that state the Golliwogg Is not deemed racist nor offensive and we will just go round In circles as we always do when you consider your opinion superior to that of others.
So... do you have any factual or documented evidence to show that the black population find the doll offensive. No more opinions please....
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
You've gone in circles again, I've done that earlier. I've said what needed saying, the thread's there for people to read, I've no desire to play your game.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
spot;1373639 wrote: You've gone in circles again, I've done that earlier. I've said what needed saying, the thread's there for people to read, I've no desire to play your game.
And when Spot won't or can not answer a question, the accusation of playing games Is trolleyed out again.... You are so predictable.
And when Spot won't or can not answer a question, the accusation of playing games Is trolleyed out again.... You are so predictable.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
This makes interesting background reading.
There's no defense for blackface / UCLA Today
There's no defense for blackface / UCLA Today
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
spot;1373641 wrote: This makes interesting background reading.
There's no defense for blackface / UCLA Today
Mark Sawyer the author says there Is no defence for Blackface. That Is his opinion and you just happen to agree with an opinion.
Another opinion
Golliwog collector defends 'racist' museum display | Mail Online
There's no defense for blackface / UCLA Today
Mark Sawyer the author says there Is no defence for Blackface. That Is his opinion and you just happen to agree with an opinion.
Another opinion
Golliwog collector defends 'racist' museum display | Mail Online
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
You asked about Black opinion.
For those who dissociate the Golliwog from its historical rooting in Blackface stage musical acts, the question of racial insult is a matter of present perception. I find it ridiculous to dissociate the two since the Golliwog as a doll is a recognizable representation of the Blackface singer of the 19th century. If Blackface is unacceptable due to the racial slur it casts through history then so is the doll. These are logical steps, to my mind, not opinions. By all means continue to deny a link, we're each making a case, it's not our place to say whose is more meaningful.
For those who dissociate the Golliwog from its historical rooting in Blackface stage musical acts, the question of racial insult is a matter of present perception. I find it ridiculous to dissociate the two since the Golliwog as a doll is a recognizable representation of the Blackface singer of the 19th century. If Blackface is unacceptable due to the racial slur it casts through history then so is the doll. These are logical steps, to my mind, not opinions. By all means continue to deny a link, we're each making a case, it's not our place to say whose is more meaningful.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
spot;1373643 wrote: You asked about Black opinion.
For those who dissociate the Golliwog from its historical rooting in Blackface stage musical acts, the question of racial insult is a matter of present perception. I find it ridiculous to dissociate the two since the Golliwog as a doll is a recognizable representation of the Blackface singer of the 19th century. If Blackface is unacceptable due to the racial slur it casts through history then so is the doll. These are logical steps, to my mind, not opinions. By all means continue to deny a link, we're each making a case, it's not our place to say whose is more meaningful.
What do you think Is the % of people who see a Golliwogg doll ( or to put It correctly, the golly doll ) are who Immediately think ... ' Oh Isn't this Insulting to a black person' ?
The more the self professed experts write of their opinion, the more Indoctrinated the people become. Someone who would never associate a doll with Insulting blacks, then begins to feel uncomfortable with looking at the doll only because he has read or heard someone state that It is.
It is Indoctrination based on opinion trying to force opinion on the masses until public opinion changes so much that the majority rule.
People are Individuals and what offends one may not offend another. What I won't tolerate Is some pompous arsshole telling me or any one else how to think and especially how to view dolls or any other object.
I happen to find babies with their ears pierced offensive, others don't... It's how the world goes round.
I do not find the golly doll offensive In the slightest but the reason i would not display one In my window Is because of knobs like Sawyer who spout their opinions to make others believe that what I am doing Is In some way other than Innocent.
I ask again Spot.... why no arrest for someone who displays Punch In their window?
Why don't you ask bruv what his wifes opinion of the golly doll Is?.... Her opinion would carry far more weight than links to opinions you post.
For those who dissociate the Golliwog from its historical rooting in Blackface stage musical acts, the question of racial insult is a matter of present perception. I find it ridiculous to dissociate the two since the Golliwog as a doll is a recognizable representation of the Blackface singer of the 19th century. If Blackface is unacceptable due to the racial slur it casts through history then so is the doll. These are logical steps, to my mind, not opinions. By all means continue to deny a link, we're each making a case, it's not our place to say whose is more meaningful.
What do you think Is the % of people who see a Golliwogg doll ( or to put It correctly, the golly doll ) are who Immediately think ... ' Oh Isn't this Insulting to a black person' ?
The more the self professed experts write of their opinion, the more Indoctrinated the people become. Someone who would never associate a doll with Insulting blacks, then begins to feel uncomfortable with looking at the doll only because he has read or heard someone state that It is.
It is Indoctrination based on opinion trying to force opinion on the masses until public opinion changes so much that the majority rule.
People are Individuals and what offends one may not offend another. What I won't tolerate Is some pompous arsshole telling me or any one else how to think and especially how to view dolls or any other object.
I happen to find babies with their ears pierced offensive, others don't... It's how the world goes round.
I do not find the golly doll offensive In the slightest but the reason i would not display one In my window Is because of knobs like Sawyer who spout their opinions to make others believe that what I am doing Is In some way other than Innocent.
I ask again Spot.... why no arrest for someone who displays Punch In their window?
Why don't you ask bruv what his wifes opinion of the golly doll Is?.... Her opinion would carry far more weight than links to opinions you post.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
oscar;1373644 wrote: What do you think Is the % of people who see a Golliwogg doll ( or to put It correctly, the golly doll ) are who Immediately think ... ' Oh Isn't this Insulting to a black person' ?It depends on what you mean by people. If we restrict ourselves to, for example, the English electorate (thereby restricting ourselves roughly to adults in England who aren't short-term visitors to the country), I'd say around 90%. If, on the other hand, we picked the residents of Uttar Pradesh, I expect it'd be around 0%. It all depends on the historical context in which the people find themselves.
These 90% of adults in England, to be clearer, are more likely to immediately think "Oh wasn't this insulting to a black person" rather than "isn't" since they'd see the Golliwog as an artifact from the past rather than a toy of the present, much as they would if they saw shackles from a slave ship. I've seen the reaction people have to shackles from a slave ship in Bristol Museum which is why I bring it up, I'd expect a similar 90% gut reaction to any authentic twelve-inch Golliwog in full costume.
oscar wrote:
I ask again Spot.... why no arrest for someone who displays Punch In their window?You seem fixated on legality. The issue is one of offensiveness, not of offences. Practically no image is automatically illegal in England on the grounds of race hate, it's what you do with it that breaks the law. Using any image to express race hate is a crime. I can't imagine a circumstance in which one could display Punch to express race hatred - though I can imagine using a Punch and Judy stall to do it with easily enough.
These 90% of adults in England, to be clearer, are more likely to immediately think "Oh wasn't this insulting to a black person" rather than "isn't" since they'd see the Golliwog as an artifact from the past rather than a toy of the present, much as they would if they saw shackles from a slave ship. I've seen the reaction people have to shackles from a slave ship in Bristol Museum which is why I bring it up, I'd expect a similar 90% gut reaction to any authentic twelve-inch Golliwog in full costume.
oscar wrote:
I ask again Spot.... why no arrest for someone who displays Punch In their window?You seem fixated on legality. The issue is one of offensiveness, not of offences. Practically no image is automatically illegal in England on the grounds of race hate, it's what you do with it that breaks the law. Using any image to express race hate is a crime. I can't imagine a circumstance in which one could display Punch to express race hatred - though I can imagine using a Punch and Judy stall to do it with easily enough.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
spot;1373634 wrote: The "of what was crassly comic and eventually destructive, corrosive and racially intolerable"? I'd have thought that was far and away the most obviously true aspect of the lot, and the most widely supported by those who've analysed it. Do you want to go down that path and see what we can find?
I think Blackface was comic in that many people laughed at it for many decades before it became a crass embarrassment. I note that it lasted perhaps thirty years longer as a popular art form in the UK than in the US.
The reason I consider it destructive and corrosive is that it predominantly depicted one race in the US making mock at the expense of another - De Camptown Races, with twenty blacked-up dancers doing their turkey-strut on stage, was surely mockery. Does that make Blackface singing performances racially intolerable these days? I'd be hard pressed to find any troupe still giving it a go and I'd put that down to the outrage they'd face if they tried. Consider how the UK would react if one of the 1970's Polly Wolly Doodle All De Day Mitchell Singers programs was put on as a repeat.
Yes, spot, we could go down that path...I think it would be interesting and could help me to form my own opinion on this topic. I found Bruv's link to research on black and white dolls quite disturbing and it led my mind down another path. I'm all for trying to change the preconceived ideas that I hold.
But, I would still take issue on any opinion claiming to be "obviously true."
I think Blackface was comic in that many people laughed at it for many decades before it became a crass embarrassment. I note that it lasted perhaps thirty years longer as a popular art form in the UK than in the US.
The reason I consider it destructive and corrosive is that it predominantly depicted one race in the US making mock at the expense of another - De Camptown Races, with twenty blacked-up dancers doing their turkey-strut on stage, was surely mockery. Does that make Blackface singing performances racially intolerable these days? I'd be hard pressed to find any troupe still giving it a go and I'd put that down to the outrage they'd face if they tried. Consider how the UK would react if one of the 1970's Polly Wolly Doodle All De Day Mitchell Singers programs was put on as a repeat.
Yes, spot, we could go down that path...I think it would be interesting and could help me to form my own opinion on this topic. I found Bruv's link to research on black and white dolls quite disturbing and it led my mind down another path. I'm all for trying to change the preconceived ideas that I hold.
But, I would still take issue on any opinion claiming to be "obviously true."
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
So to sum up......
Golliwogs were designed to denigrate or mock a section of people deemed at that time to be lesser beings, a step up from animals, a commodity to be bought and sold.
Without knowing that history the golliwog is a humorous caricature, a soft cuddly toy, in the way that many dolls are caricatures with pronounced exaggerated features.
To display or expose a black person to such an image, could be seen as insensitive at least, but done with intent could be seen as harassment, in line with the original historical intent.
There is no equivalent doll that could reasonably have the same affect on a white person.
I had a dream............
One day perhaps when the world is older and wiser, a white or black person will be able to curse the other using their colour as an adjective, the same as today we use such mild descriptions as Fat or Ginger in moments of rage.
Then we can take the gollies out of the cupboard and we will all laugh together.
With apologies to M L King
Golliwogs were designed to denigrate or mock a section of people deemed at that time to be lesser beings, a step up from animals, a commodity to be bought and sold.
Without knowing that history the golliwog is a humorous caricature, a soft cuddly toy, in the way that many dolls are caricatures with pronounced exaggerated features.
To display or expose a black person to such an image, could be seen as insensitive at least, but done with intent could be seen as harassment, in line with the original historical intent.
There is no equivalent doll that could reasonably have the same affect on a white person.
I had a dream............
One day perhaps when the world is older and wiser, a white or black person will be able to curse the other using their colour as an adjective, the same as today we use such mild descriptions as Fat or Ginger in moments of rage.
Then we can take the gollies out of the cupboard and we will all laugh together.
With apologies to M L King
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
Bruv;1373654 wrote: Golliwogs were designed to denigrate or mock a section of people deemed at that time to be lesser beings, a step up from animals, a commodity to be bought and sold.
I can't imagine that's true, the designed to denigrate or mock. It was a background assumption of the 18th century that the descendants of slaves in the US, and more generally Africans as a whole, were "lesser beings, a step up from animals, a commodity to be bought and sold". The commodity aspect was eliminated from the British mind by Wilberforce between 1790 and 1810 but the other two components were still alive and kicking into the 20th century as simple and apparent facts. The Blackface singing style was a way of allowing white performers to bring black plantation songs in front of white audiences and the device required a comic approach. The denigration and mockery were implicit - look at the black man dressed up smart, mummy, ain't it a hoot. And the doll is a doll-copy of the singer in full uniform.
The 1895 author didn't just invent the word Golliwogg, she also had a doll like that as a child. She invented the name which stuck, not the style of doll.
I can't imagine that's true, the designed to denigrate or mock. It was a background assumption of the 18th century that the descendants of slaves in the US, and more generally Africans as a whole, were "lesser beings, a step up from animals, a commodity to be bought and sold". The commodity aspect was eliminated from the British mind by Wilberforce between 1790 and 1810 but the other two components were still alive and kicking into the 20th century as simple and apparent facts. The Blackface singing style was a way of allowing white performers to bring black plantation songs in front of white audiences and the device required a comic approach. The denigration and mockery were implicit - look at the black man dressed up smart, mummy, ain't it a hoot. And the doll is a doll-copy of the singer in full uniform.
The 1895 author didn't just invent the word Golliwogg, she also had a doll like that as a child. She invented the name which stuck, not the style of doll.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
spot;1373649 wrote: It depends on what you mean by people. If we restrict ourselves to, for example, the English electorate (thereby restricting ourselves roughly to adults in England who aren't short-term visitors to the country), I'd say around 90%. If, on the other hand, we picked the residents of Uttar Pradesh, I expect it'd be around 0%. It all depends on the historical context in which the people find themselves.
These 90% of adults in England, to be clearer, are more likely to immediately think "Oh wasn't this insulting to a black person" rather than "isn't" since they'd see the Golliwog as an artifact from the past rather than a toy of the present, much as they would if they saw shackles from a slave ship. I've seen the reaction people have to shackles from a slave ship in Bristol Museum which is why I bring it up, I'd expect a similar 90% gut reaction to any authentic twelve-inch Golliwog in full costume.
You seem fixated on legality. The issue is one of offensiveness, not of offences. Practically no image is automatically illegal in England on the grounds of race hate, it's what you do with it that breaks the law. Using any image to express race hate is a crime. I can't imagine a circumstance in which one could display Punch to express race hatred - though I can imagine using a Punch and Judy stall to do it with easily enough.
People like you worry me.
If the Issue Is of offensiveness, then In line with my opening post 'has PC gone too far?' where does this end?
Bruv posted a very relevant link when Muslims found china pigs In a window offensive.... so how far do we go with this? Do I now phone the police every time I see some scroat with a Fox tail hanging from his Vespa Scooter? Do we now wipe pigs from the history books because our multi-cultural society finds them offensive?
Much of racism Is borne from bigots like you which In the past have Included your Anti-American rants on this forum.
If you give a young child a Golly Doll, chances are they will see a cute, amusing doll. They will know nothing of the history or the Implications you try to Impose. They will continue to view the doll In Innocence until someone like you comes along and tells them why they should be viewing the doll In a different light. The next thing Is they go to school and Instead of enjoying their black class mates, they are viewing them In different light. This Is how racism Is borne, not by a doll celebrating black people.
Maybe you need to look to your own Insecurities before trying to force your bigoted views on others.
These 90% of adults in England, to be clearer, are more likely to immediately think "Oh wasn't this insulting to a black person" rather than "isn't" since they'd see the Golliwog as an artifact from the past rather than a toy of the present, much as they would if they saw shackles from a slave ship. I've seen the reaction people have to shackles from a slave ship in Bristol Museum which is why I bring it up, I'd expect a similar 90% gut reaction to any authentic twelve-inch Golliwog in full costume.
You seem fixated on legality. The issue is one of offensiveness, not of offences. Practically no image is automatically illegal in England on the grounds of race hate, it's what you do with it that breaks the law. Using any image to express race hate is a crime. I can't imagine a circumstance in which one could display Punch to express race hatred - though I can imagine using a Punch and Judy stall to do it with easily enough.
People like you worry me.
If the Issue Is of offensiveness, then In line with my opening post 'has PC gone too far?' where does this end?
Bruv posted a very relevant link when Muslims found china pigs In a window offensive.... so how far do we go with this? Do I now phone the police every time I see some scroat with a Fox tail hanging from his Vespa Scooter? Do we now wipe pigs from the history books because our multi-cultural society finds them offensive?
Much of racism Is borne from bigots like you which In the past have Included your Anti-American rants on this forum.
If you give a young child a Golly Doll, chances are they will see a cute, amusing doll. They will know nothing of the history or the Implications you try to Impose. They will continue to view the doll In Innocence until someone like you comes along and tells them why they should be viewing the doll In a different light. The next thing Is they go to school and Instead of enjoying their black class mates, they are viewing them In different light. This Is how racism Is borne, not by a doll celebrating black people.
Maybe you need to look to your own Insecurities before trying to force your bigoted views on others.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
Would you like a two-hour informal poll on, say, College Green, asking all passers-by whether a Golliwog immediately makes them think "Oh isn't this insulting to a black person"? We can both run the poll together, we can take a traditional twelve-inch cloth Golly with us and we can use your exact wording on every adult that passes - without attempting to influence their response. Let's test my 90%, shall we?
As for teaching children the history of racism and the part Golly played in it, that's called education.
Regarding china pigs I repeat - it depends what you do with them. If a court attributes your actions - note "actions" - to expressing race hatred then you're scuppered. The test may or may not - I'd need to look it up - be whether a reasonable person would believe race hatred was being expressed. Perhaps we should check, since I think I remember you claiming it was whether offence was taken regardless of reasonableness.
As for teaching children the history of racism and the part Golly played in it, that's called education.
Regarding china pigs I repeat - it depends what you do with them. If a court attributes your actions - note "actions" - to expressing race hatred then you're scuppered. The test may or may not - I'd need to look it up - be whether a reasonable person would believe race hatred was being expressed. Perhaps we should check, since I think I remember you claiming it was whether offence was taken regardless of reasonableness.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
spot;1373661 wrote: Would you like a two-hour informal poll on, say, College Green, asking all passers-by whether a Golliwog immediately makes them think "Oh isn't this insulting to a black person"? We can both run the poll together, we can take a traditional twelve-inch cloth Golly with us and we can use your exact wording on every adult that passes - without attempting to influence their response. Let's test my 90%, shall we?
As for teaching children the history of racism and the part Golly played in it, that's called education.
Regarding china pigs I repeat - it depends what you do with them. If a court attributes your actions - note "actions" - to expressing race hatred then you're scuppered. The test may or may not - I'd need to look it up - be whether a reasonable person would believe race hatred was being expressed. Perhaps we should check, since I think I remember you claiming it was whether offence was taken regardless of reasonableness.
First of all, being seen in public with you is something I would rather steer well clear of.
"As for teaching children the history of racism and the part Golly played in it, that's called education."
No, It's not education In a positive sense, It is bigotry. Where children see no malice, no hatred no difference between black and white, you are highlighting there Is a difference. This Is merely encouraging children to view different races differently which Is how racism Is borne and festers.
As for how a court see's your actions, you are asking a court to prove 'state of mind' something that Is near Impossible In the Judicial system.
Then you enter the realms of the human rights act and freedom of movement and expression.
As for teaching children the history of racism and the part Golly played in it, that's called education.
Regarding china pigs I repeat - it depends what you do with them. If a court attributes your actions - note "actions" - to expressing race hatred then you're scuppered. The test may or may not - I'd need to look it up - be whether a reasonable person would believe race hatred was being expressed. Perhaps we should check, since I think I remember you claiming it was whether offence was taken regardless of reasonableness.
First of all, being seen in public with you is something I would rather steer well clear of.
"As for teaching children the history of racism and the part Golly played in it, that's called education."
No, It's not education In a positive sense, It is bigotry. Where children see no malice, no hatred no difference between black and white, you are highlighting there Is a difference. This Is merely encouraging children to view different races differently which Is how racism Is borne and festers.
As for how a court see's your actions, you are asking a court to prove 'state of mind' something that Is near Impossible In the Judicial system.
Then you enter the realms of the human rights act and freedom of movement and expression.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
oscar;1373670 wrote: As for how a court see's your actions, you are asking a court to prove 'state of mind' something that Is near Impossible In the Judicial system.This race hatred thing isn't a crime, it's something that affects sentencing where a crime has been successfully prosecuted. Race hatred is a test of aggravating circumstances.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
oscar;1373670 wrote: Where children see no malice, no hatred no difference between black and white, you are highlighting there Is a difference. This Is merely encouraging children to view different races differently which Is how racism Is borne and festers.
No you are not, you are showing how things were, that's history.
Or telling them about Auschwitz would make them anti Semitic.
As for how a court see's your actions, you are asking a court to prove 'state of mind' something that Is near Impossible In the Judicial system.
I understand for a racial crime to be committed, hinges on the victim 'believing' they have been targeted due to their race.....nothing else.
It seems too wide open to me.
No you are not, you are showing how things were, that's history.
Or telling them about Auschwitz would make them anti Semitic.
As for how a court see's your actions, you are asking a court to prove 'state of mind' something that Is near Impossible In the Judicial system.
I understand for a racial crime to be committed, hinges on the victim 'believing' they have been targeted due to their race.....nothing else.
It seems too wide open to me.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
Bruv;1373678 wrote: No you are not, you are showing how things were, that's history.
Or telling them about Auschwitz would make them anti Semitic.
I understand for a racial crime to be committed, hinges on the victim 'believing' they have been targeted due to their race.....nothing else.
It seems too wide open to me.
Educating children In the history of Auschwitz Is different In that It Is history of Genocide along with other genocides In the history books. It Is documented, It Is proven.
The education of children of a doll Is not proven, It Is merely perception on the part of some of the population. Yes, the doll has history but what you are trying to educate children In Is the subject of opinion not historical events such as wars.
What we have with this doll, Is some forming the opinion that the doll Is offensive, while others state they do not find It offensive.
It becomes very dangerous when we attempt to educate children based on opinion.
Or telling them about Auschwitz would make them anti Semitic.
I understand for a racial crime to be committed, hinges on the victim 'believing' they have been targeted due to their race.....nothing else.
It seems too wide open to me.
Educating children In the history of Auschwitz Is different In that It Is history of Genocide along with other genocides In the history books. It Is documented, It Is proven.
The education of children of a doll Is not proven, It Is merely perception on the part of some of the population. Yes, the doll has history but what you are trying to educate children In Is the subject of opinion not historical events such as wars.
What we have with this doll, Is some forming the opinion that the doll Is offensive, while others state they do not find It offensive.
It becomes very dangerous when we attempt to educate children based on opinion.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
spot;1373677 wrote: This race hatred thing isn't a crime, it's something that affects sentencing where a crime has been successfully prosecuted. Race hatred is a test of aggravating circumstances.
No crime will ever be proven where the onus on the prosecution Is to prove 'state of mind'... that Is why very few cases as the one In my opening post are followed through by the CPS. Proving the offender thought malciiously would be very difficult.
No crime will ever be proven where the onus on the prosecution Is to prove 'state of mind'... that Is why very few cases as the one In my opening post are followed through by the CPS. Proving the offender thought malciiously would be very difficult.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
The equivalent of a Golliwog doll to Spot.
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
oscar;1373681 wrote: Educating children In the history of Auschwitz Is different
Now you choose what history you teach ?
On a scale the history of Africa and all it entails has had a profound, longer lasting affect on the world than the holocaust......by far.
Now you choose what history you teach ?
On a scale the history of Africa and all it entails has had a profound, longer lasting affect on the world than the holocaust......by far.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
Would it be equally as racist if a black person dresses up in whiteface?
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Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
Bruv;1373687 wrote: Now you choose what history you teach ?
On a scale the history of Africa and all it entails has had a profound, longer lasting affect on the world than the holocaust......by far. I agree with you. Yes, educate children In atrocities such as the genocides and the black civil rights movement for example. Facts, proven history not putting suspicious thoughts Into childrens heads when they can make their own minds up when they are old enough. Why should any child be presented with someone's opinion?
On a scale the history of Africa and all it entails has had a profound, longer lasting affect on the world than the holocaust......by far. I agree with you. Yes, educate children In atrocities such as the genocides and the black civil rights movement for example. Facts, proven history not putting suspicious thoughts Into childrens heads when they can make their own minds up when they are old enough. Why should any child be presented with someone's opinion?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
YZGI;1373688 wrote: Would it be equally as racist if a black person dresses up in whiteface? Hurrah !!!! Exactly !!!!
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
YZGI;1373688 wrote: Would it be equally as racist if a black person dresses up in whiteface?
Funny you should say that.
Did you know the amount of skin whiteners for blacks on the market ?
And while they are whitening.....to look good......many whites are tanning themselves.....to look good.....improve their self esteem.
Funny old world ennit ?
Funny you should say that.
Did you know the amount of skin whiteners for blacks on the market ?
And while they are whitening.....to look good......many whites are tanning themselves.....to look good.....improve their self esteem.
Funny old world ennit ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
Bruv;1373693 wrote: Funny you should say that.
Did you know the amount of skin whiteners for blacks on the market ?
And while they are whitening.....to look good......many whites are tanning themselves.....to look good.....improve their self esteem.
Funny old world ennit ?
Yes, cant remember how or what or why, I think there was a doco on It about Asians buying skin whitener on the net. Meanwhile White British chavs are burning themselves to a crisp on sunbeds only to resemble an old leather heandbag.
Did you know the amount of skin whiteners for blacks on the market ?
And while they are whitening.....to look good......many whites are tanning themselves.....to look good.....improve their self esteem.
Funny old world ennit ?
Yes, cant remember how or what or why, I think there was a doco on It about Asians buying skin whitener on the net. Meanwhile White British chavs are burning themselves to a crisp on sunbeds only to resemble an old leather heandbag.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
oscar;1373683 wrote: No crime will ever be proven where the onus on the prosecution Is to prove 'state of mind'... that Is why very few cases as the one In my opening post are followed through by the CPS. Proving the offender thought malciiously would be very difficult.
I'm not sure you grasped my point. This race hatred thing isn't a crime, it's something that affects sentencing where a crime has been successfully prosecuted. Race hatred is a test of aggravating circumstances. I don't think anyone's accused of "race hate", they're accused of crimes like, for example, breach of the peace. If the breach of the peace is proven then the question of race hate will affect the sentence passed.
I'm not sure you grasped my point. This race hatred thing isn't a crime, it's something that affects sentencing where a crime has been successfully prosecuted. Race hatred is a test of aggravating circumstances. I don't think anyone's accused of "race hate", they're accused of crimes like, for example, breach of the peace. If the breach of the peace is proven then the question of race hate will affect the sentence passed.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
spot;1373702 wrote: I'm not sure you grasped my point. This race hatred thing isn't a crime, it's something that affects sentencing where a crime has been successfully prosecuted. Race hatred is a test of aggravating circumstances. I don't think anyone's accused of "race hate", they're accused of crimes like, for example, breach of the peace. If the breach of the peace is proven then the question of race hate will affect the sentence passed.
Where on earth do you get this cobblers from?
" The race hatred thing Isn't a crime". What exactly do you think the crime of 'Inciting Racial Hatred Is?
The Crime and Disorder Act 1998 gave statutory force to the idea of ‘racially aggravated offences’, and in 2001 this Act was amended to include religiously aggravated offences. Racially or religiously aggravated offences include assault, criminal damage, public order offences and harassment. An offence is racially or religiously aggravated if:
At the time of committing the offence, or immediately before or after doing so, the offender demonstrates towards the victim of the offence hostility based on the victim’s membership – or presumed membership – of a racial or religious group.
The offence is motivated wholly or partly by hostility towards members of a racial or religious group based on their membership of that group.
Putting a doll In your window Is not a breach of the peace. How on earth can any prosecuter ask the Magistrate to sentence for racial hatred when the defendant has been charged with breach of the peace?
Where on earth do you get this cobblers from?
" The race hatred thing Isn't a crime". What exactly do you think the crime of 'Inciting Racial Hatred Is?
The Crime and Disorder Act 1998 gave statutory force to the idea of ‘racially aggravated offences’, and in 2001 this Act was amended to include religiously aggravated offences. Racially or religiously aggravated offences include assault, criminal damage, public order offences and harassment. An offence is racially or religiously aggravated if:
At the time of committing the offence, or immediately before or after doing so, the offender demonstrates towards the victim of the offence hostility based on the victim’s membership – or presumed membership – of a racial or religious group.
The offence is motivated wholly or partly by hostility towards members of a racial or religious group based on their membership of that group.
Putting a doll In your window Is not a breach of the peace. How on earth can any prosecuter ask the Magistrate to sentence for racial hatred when the defendant has been charged with breach of the peace?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
Maybe it's looking up aggravated in the dictionary time.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
spot;1373717 wrote: Maybe it's looking up aggravated in the dictionary time.
Your text book dictionary speak Is a million miles away from british law.
Maybe It's looking up 'Inciting Racial Hatred' Law time and Breach of the Peace law. In Fact, while you're there, look up Section 5 Of the Public Order act.
While we are at It, perhaps you can show me the precedent or any case where an arrest for Breach of The Peace led to a sentence for Racial Hatred?
Your text book dictionary speak Is a million miles away from british law.
Maybe It's looking up 'Inciting Racial Hatred' Law time and Breach of the Peace law. In Fact, while you're there, look up Section 5 Of the Public Order act.
While we are at It, perhaps you can show me the precedent or any case where an arrest for Breach of The Peace led to a sentence for Racial Hatred?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
The Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 has nothing to do with the OP, nor any other case you've brought into the thread. "Mrs Mason had denied displaying an item likely to cause racially-aggravated harassment at an earlier hearing in Lowestoft Magistrates' Court": the crime is your section 5 of the Public Order Act, harassment. The aggravating circumstance would be that it's racially motivated and hence liable to more severe sentencing. You'll notice that the case was dropped.
Any crime at all, whether harassment or cruelty to animals or dangerous driving or rape or murder, can be racially aggravated. It's a wide ranging provision. The crime isn't race hate, the crime is aggravated by race hate.
Any crime at all, whether harassment or cruelty to animals or dangerous driving or rape or murder, can be racially aggravated. It's a wide ranging provision. The crime isn't race hate, the crime is aggravated by race hate.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
oscar;1373718 wrote: While we are at It, perhaps you can show me the precedent or any case where an arrest for Breach of The Peace led to a sentence for Racial Hatred?I just wandered into Nexis to count - there's 436 hits for "racially aggravated breach of the peace". Most are Scottish, they appear to use it like a mallet.
Here's a nice typical English example:Chorley Citizen, July 4, 2007, Fine for race row woman
Amanda Ahlgreen, 39, fiancée of Chorley borough councillor Shaun Smith, received a £750 fine and was ordered to pay £1,000 in court costs following a racially aggravated incident involving Asian taxi drivers.
Ahlgreen, of Trigg Lane, Heapey, had pleaded guilty to a charge of racially aggravated breach of the peace when she appeared before Manchester Minshull Street Crown Court last month.
The court heard how she used racist abuse and demanded a white English taxi driver at Manchester Airport on June 19 last year.
The crime is breach of the peace. The aggravating circumstance would be that it's racially motivated and hence liable to more severe sentencing, just as with your Mrs Mason except Mrs Mason's case was dropped. Ms Ahlgreen's, on the other hand, wasn't.
Here's a nice typical English example:Chorley Citizen, July 4, 2007, Fine for race row woman
Amanda Ahlgreen, 39, fiancée of Chorley borough councillor Shaun Smith, received a £750 fine and was ordered to pay £1,000 in court costs following a racially aggravated incident involving Asian taxi drivers.
Ahlgreen, of Trigg Lane, Heapey, had pleaded guilty to a charge of racially aggravated breach of the peace when she appeared before Manchester Minshull Street Crown Court last month.
The court heard how she used racist abuse and demanded a white English taxi driver at Manchester Airport on June 19 last year.
The crime is breach of the peace. The aggravating circumstance would be that it's racially motivated and hence liable to more severe sentencing, just as with your Mrs Mason except Mrs Mason's case was dropped. Ms Ahlgreen's, on the other hand, wasn't.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
spot;1373719 wrote: The Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 has nothing to do with the OP, nor any other case you've brought into the thread. "Mrs Mason had denied displaying an item likely to cause racially-aggravated harassment at an earlier hearing in Lowestoft Magistrates' Court": the crime is your section 5 of the Public Order Act, harassment. The aggravating circumstance would be that it's racially motivated and hence liable to more severe sentencing. You'll notice that the case was dropped.
Any crime at all, whether harassment or cruelty to animals or dangerous driving or rape or murder, can be racially aggravated. It's a wide ranging provision. The crime isn't race hate, the crime is aggravated by race hate.
And as I have said In my previous posts, It's a no brainer that the CPS are reluctant to follow through on and notoriously difficult to prove In a court of law because It Involves 'State of Mind'.
The woman put a Golly Doll In her window.... how would the prosecution prove state of mind that she acted to deliberately aggravate her neighbour?
An 'Inciting Racial Hatred' could be proven In the example of Anjem Choudary's behaviour on the streets of Luton for example as that was a display of aggression In public.
Most cases are very difficult to prove as In the cases of Griffin, Collett and Walker.
As I said In my previous posts, plod may have been happy to arrest the lady on the neighbours request but the prosecution proving beyond doubt that she acted maliciously to aggravate her neighbour Is another question.
Any crime at all, whether harassment or cruelty to animals or dangerous driving or rape or murder, can be racially aggravated. It's a wide ranging provision. The crime isn't race hate, the crime is aggravated by race hate.
And as I have said In my previous posts, It's a no brainer that the CPS are reluctant to follow through on and notoriously difficult to prove In a court of law because It Involves 'State of Mind'.
The woman put a Golly Doll In her window.... how would the prosecution prove state of mind that she acted to deliberately aggravate her neighbour?
An 'Inciting Racial Hatred' could be proven In the example of Anjem Choudary's behaviour on the streets of Luton for example as that was a display of aggression In public.
Most cases are very difficult to prove as In the cases of Griffin, Collett and Walker.
As I said In my previous posts, plod may have been happy to arrest the lady on the neighbours request but the prosecution proving beyond doubt that she acted maliciously to aggravate her neighbour Is another question.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
There's absolutely no requirement to demonstrate this "state of mind" you keep harping at, in Mrs Mason's case. She would have been charged with harassment. Had the case been prosecuted nobody would have brought up her state of mind at all, they'd have considered her action and how a reasonable person similarly circumstanced would have reacted to it.
State of mind does come into the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 but none of what the thread's discussed has gone anywhere near that act.
State of mind does come into the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 but none of what the thread's discussed has gone anywhere near that act.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
oscar;1373718 wrote: Your text book dictionary speak Is a million miles away from british law.
I'm trying to imagine the raised eyebrows of any UK solicitor seeing that remark. "Text book dictionary speak" is the heart and soul of British law and always has been, it's a rare judge who'd diverge from it.
I'm trying to imagine the raised eyebrows of any UK solicitor seeing that remark. "Text book dictionary speak" is the heart and soul of British law and always has been, it's a rare judge who'd diverge from it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
spot;1373721 wrote: I just wandered into Nexis to count - there's 436 hits for "racially aggravated breach of the peace". Most are Scottish, they appear to use it like a mallet.
Here's a nice typical English example:Chorley Citizen, July 4, 2007, Fine for race row woman
Amanda Ahlgreen, 39, fiancée of Chorley borough councillor Shaun Smith, received a £750 fine and was ordered to pay £1,000 in court costs following a racially aggravated incident involving Asian taxi drivers.
Ahlgreen, of Trigg Lane, Heapey, had pleaded guilty to a charge of racially aggravated breach of the peace when she appeared before Manchester Minshull Street Crown Court last month.
The court heard how she used racist abuse and demanded a white English taxi driver at Manchester Airport on June 19 last year.
The crime is breach of the peace. The aggravating circumstance would be that it's racially motivated and hence liable to more severe sentencing, just as with your Mrs Mason except Mrs Mason's case was dropped. Ms Ahlgreen's, on the other hand, wasn't.
There Is no comparison.
How exactly does a woman screaming racist abuse at a cab driver equate with a women quietly putting a doll In her window without uttering a word?
Here's a nice typical English example:Chorley Citizen, July 4, 2007, Fine for race row woman
Amanda Ahlgreen, 39, fiancée of Chorley borough councillor Shaun Smith, received a £750 fine and was ordered to pay £1,000 in court costs following a racially aggravated incident involving Asian taxi drivers.
Ahlgreen, of Trigg Lane, Heapey, had pleaded guilty to a charge of racially aggravated breach of the peace when she appeared before Manchester Minshull Street Crown Court last month.
The court heard how she used racist abuse and demanded a white English taxi driver at Manchester Airport on June 19 last year.
The crime is breach of the peace. The aggravating circumstance would be that it's racially motivated and hence liable to more severe sentencing, just as with your Mrs Mason except Mrs Mason's case was dropped. Ms Ahlgreen's, on the other hand, wasn't.
There Is no comparison.
How exactly does a woman screaming racist abuse at a cab driver equate with a women quietly putting a doll In her window without uttering a word?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
spot;1373724 wrote: I'm trying to imagine the raised eyebrows of any UK solicitor seeing that remark. "Text book dictionary speak" is the heart and soul of British law and always has been, it's a rare judge who'd diverge from it.
Doesn't it also involve a degree of interpretation?
Doesn't it also involve a degree of interpretation?
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
theia;1373736 wrote: Doesn't it also involve a degree of interpretation?
The law involve a degree of interpretation, or a degree of interpretation by an English judge?
Interpretation other than by enforcing the exact words in the acts and precedent cases happens so rarely that when a judge does actually sit in court and radically interprets the law in order to provide justice rather than rote judgements he's remembered for generations. It's why Lord Denning is still talked about.His trail-blazing continued with the deserted wife's right to salvage a home from the ruins of a marriage, and the liability of advisers for negligent advice. These were issues on which the law had got entrenched in indefensible moral positions, and it was a mark of Denning's greatness that he had the scholarship, the courage and the sense of opportunity to restore the credit of the common law when the chance came his way.
The Guardian
The law involve a degree of interpretation, or a degree of interpretation by an English judge?
Interpretation other than by enforcing the exact words in the acts and precedent cases happens so rarely that when a judge does actually sit in court and radically interprets the law in order to provide justice rather than rote judgements he's remembered for generations. It's why Lord Denning is still talked about.His trail-blazing continued with the deserted wife's right to salvage a home from the ruins of a marriage, and the liability of advisers for negligent advice. These were issues on which the law had got entrenched in indefensible moral positions, and it was a mark of Denning's greatness that he had the scholarship, the courage and the sense of opportunity to restore the credit of the common law when the chance came his way.
The Guardian
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
oscar;1373725 wrote: There Is no comparison.
How exactly does a woman screaming racist abuse at a cab driver equate with a women quietly putting a doll In her window without uttering a word?
You asked me, for whatever reason, to give an example of racially aggravated breach of the peace: "perhaps you can show me the precedent or any case where an arrest for Breach of The Peace led to a sentence for Racial Hatred". I thought I'd quoted the context before posting the example. The point of the example is that she was found guilty of breach of the peace, and then sentenced on the basis that the crime (breach of the peace) was aggravated by racism.
We'd be a lot more informative if you'd try to build a more conversational flowing thread.
How exactly does a woman screaming racist abuse at a cab driver equate with a women quietly putting a doll In her window without uttering a word?
You asked me, for whatever reason, to give an example of racially aggravated breach of the peace: "perhaps you can show me the precedent or any case where an arrest for Breach of The Peace led to a sentence for Racial Hatred". I thought I'd quoted the context before posting the example. The point of the example is that she was found guilty of breach of the peace, and then sentenced on the basis that the crime (breach of the peace) was aggravated by racism.
We'd be a lot more informative if you'd try to build a more conversational flowing thread.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
I'll tell you what else would be helpful. The examples given to the thread - Mrs Marsh, and Robin Demczak - were arrested, not charged, not prosecuted, not sentenced. People are arrested to give them legal protection. Restrictions on what the police can do cut in at the point of arrest and questioning comes under specific rules. A caution is given, all that sort of thing. The right to advice from a panel solicitor, the controlled environment of taped and videoed interviews. It's what the government has told the police to do, mainly on the advice of the judiciary, in order to safeguard the public. In the old days people were routinely beaten to get confessions, for example. It's harder to do that now.
So. Arrests followed by no further action. Why do the papers go wild when it happens? Because it sells copies. It's a bit of a con.
Find cases where the law's found someone guilty and sentenced them, they'd be a good indication of what the law actually penalizes. These two cases aren't prohibitions, they don't discuss illegal activity, they just demonstrate what's legal. Robin's pig was legal, his sty was legal, Mrs Marsh's gollywog in the window was legal. Find something illegal instead and we'll be in the right ballpark.
So. Arrests followed by no further action. Why do the papers go wild when it happens? Because it sells copies. It's a bit of a con.
Find cases where the law's found someone guilty and sentenced them, they'd be a good indication of what the law actually penalizes. These two cases aren't prohibitions, they don't discuss illegal activity, they just demonstrate what's legal. Robin's pig was legal, his sty was legal, Mrs Marsh's gollywog in the window was legal. Find something illegal instead and we'll be in the right ballpark.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Have we really become Intolerant or taken PC too far ?
spot;1373743 wrote: I'll tell you what else would be helpful. The examples given to the thread - Mrs Marsh, and Robin Demczak - were arrested, not charged, not prosecuted, not sentenced. People are arrested to give them legal protection. Restrictions on what the police can do cut in at the point of arrest and questioning comes under specific rules. A caution is given, all that sort of thing. The right to advice from a panel solicitor, the controlled environment of taped and videoed interviews. It's what the government has told the police to do, mainly on the advice of the judiciary, in order to safeguard the public. In the old days people were routinely beaten to get confessions, for example. It's harder to do that now.
So. Arrests followed by no further action. Why do the papers go wild when it happens? Because it sells copies. It's a bit of a con.
Find cases where the law's found someone guilty and sentenced them, they'd be a good indication of what the law actually penalizes. These two cases aren't prohibitions, they don't discuss illegal activity, they just demonstrate what's legal. Robin's pig was legal, his sty was legal, Mrs Marsh's gollywog in the window was legal. Find something illegal instead and we'll be in the right ballpark.
You are just going around In circles taking the thread entirely off tangent to prove a point that Is still open to Interpretation.
The CPS : Racist and religious crime – CPS prosecution policy
What I find disturbing In this article Is this paragraph:
In preparing this second edition, we have consulted with people from Black and minority ethnic communities and faith communities and we have taken their comments into account when writing this document. Their contributions have helped us to have a better understanding of the things that are important to them and that we need to know about when we deal with racist and religious crime.
Where Is the consultation with white citizens subjected to racist crime by ethnic minorities? Why no consultation with them?
So. Arrests followed by no further action. Why do the papers go wild when it happens? Because it sells copies. It's a bit of a con.
Find cases where the law's found someone guilty and sentenced them, they'd be a good indication of what the law actually penalizes. These two cases aren't prohibitions, they don't discuss illegal activity, they just demonstrate what's legal. Robin's pig was legal, his sty was legal, Mrs Marsh's gollywog in the window was legal. Find something illegal instead and we'll be in the right ballpark.
You are just going around In circles taking the thread entirely off tangent to prove a point that Is still open to Interpretation.
The CPS : Racist and religious crime – CPS prosecution policy
What I find disturbing In this article Is this paragraph:
In preparing this second edition, we have consulted with people from Black and minority ethnic communities and faith communities and we have taken their comments into account when writing this document. Their contributions have helped us to have a better understanding of the things that are important to them and that we need to know about when we deal with racist and religious crime.
Where Is the consultation with white citizens subjected to racist crime by ethnic minorities? Why no consultation with them?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon