Career day with Lt John Pike

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:29 pm

While this incident was certainly "horrific", it seems to me that we have

limited police officer's ability to do anything, and also that there are many

who don't respect law enforcement.

I wish there was more on what happened prior to this, if the students

were warned to disperse or they would be pepper sprayed, and they

didn't comply.

We don't want police to use any other methods, nightsticks or Tasers

or presumably bean bags, and if they try and pick up and forcibly

remove all those people, there are going to be injuries as it is.

Somebody needs to get off their ass and develop a standardized way

of dealing with this stuff and get the word out.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:46 pm

I'm not clear what the hazard would have been if they had allowed the students to remain where they were and let them disperse in their own time. They weren't blocking a city thoroughfare, I believe it was just a walkway on campus. This is an example of excessive force, the only reason to use pepper spray is to prevent injury of either the police or a civilian which clearly wasn't the case here. This guy walked along the line of students calmly and purposefully as though he were spraying for termites.

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:52 pm

My next door neighbor's daughter is a student there, she'll be home for Thanksgiving,

and I will try and get a chance to ask her if she has any insight...

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:56 pm

Oh good, I'd be interested in reading that.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:46 am

valerie;1376633 wrote: While this incident was certainly "horrific", it seems to me that we have

limited police officer's ability to do anything, and also that there are many

who don't respect law enforcement.

I wish there was more on what happened prior to this, if the students

were warned to disperse or they would be pepper sprayed, and they

didn't comply.

We don't want police to use any other methods, nightsticks or Tasers

or presumably bean bags, and if they try and pick up and forcibly

remove all those people, there are going to be injuries as it is.

Somebody needs to get off their ass and develop a standardized way

of dealing with this stuff and get the word out.

To people not have a right to protest and demonstrate? what crime were they actually committing that needed a violent response? there was no violence or riotous behaviour, no threats to property or person so why should the police have needed to do anything? More to the point why do you think they should have the right to stop people demonstrating?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:00 am

Police shouldn't have the ability to do anything when people assemble peacefully.

If we don't want the police to use more force, we can make it known to them loud and clear that they had better not instead of passively sitting back if they do.

Those are the American principles I was raised with. "by the people, for the people and of the people" (not the police), remember.

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:59 am

gmc;1376645 wrote: To people not have a right to protest and demonstrate? what crime were they actually committing that needed a violent response? there was no violence or riotous behaviour, no threats to property or person so why should the police have needed to do anything? More to the point why do you think they should have the right to stop people demonstrating?

I don't think they have the right to stop people demonstrating. I don't know exactly what crime they were committing, but

a few possibilities do come to mind... obstructing a law enforcement officer in the performance of his duties for one. The

officers were there to remove tents set up on university property, which is against UC policy. Those tents destroy the lawns

they are sitting on.

If these students had been assembled either side of the walkway in protest, then they still get to have their say, and the campus

police still get to do their jobs. And they wouldn't be interfering with the rights of other students to head to class, etc. and continue

with regular university day-to-day operations.

I am sure when a student is accepted into the UC system, they get an info packet that pretty clearly spells out what they can and

can't do. If they stuck within those guidelines, they likely wouldn't have risked pepper spray or anything else.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:20 pm

Ummm how is everyone getting all that info from one photo? What University students? all I see is a riot policeofficer spraying a little kid ...wt?

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:54 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1376728 wrote: Ummm how is everyone getting all that info from one photo? What University students? all I see is a riot policeofficer spraying a little kid ...wt?

This is a shorter version filmed by someone apparently downwind of the spray:

UC Davis Protestors Pepper Sprayed - YouTube

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:57 pm

The purpose of demonstrations is to cause inconvenience and disruption in order to bring awareness to the cause. If those students had been standing having idle chit-chat where they were sitting while this protest had not been going on and others needed to walk around them, it would not be a problem. It becomes a problem because the authorities sense a lack of control. Black Friday is approaching and authorities aren't liking the idea of the biggest shopping day of the year being phucked with.

theia · Post by **theia** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:12 pm

valerie;1376633 wrote: While this incident was certainly "horrific", it seems to me that we have

limited police officer's ability to do anything, and also that there are many

who don't respect law enforcement.

I wish there was more on what happened prior to this, if the students

were warned to disperse or they would be pepper sprayed, and they

didn't comply.

We don't want police to use any other methods, nightsticks or Tasers

or presumably bean bags, and if they try and pick up and forcibly

remove all those people, there are going to be injuries as it is.

Somebody needs to get off their ass and develop a standardized way

of dealing with this stuff and get the word out.

I wish I knew more too...if the police pepper sprayed the students without warning, then that's disgraceful. If the students were warned that if they didn't move they would be sprayed, then the outcome was the students' choice.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:37 pm

So it's becoming illegal to protest now? governments seem to use riot police on ordinary citizens all of the sudden. So there is no right to assemble anymore? Police have choices in which way to handle a protest. there is no law in which it is illegal to assemble in my country or most other western countries . The police have no right to move anyone on or stop a protest.

Protesting is not about obstructing ....you pay taxes therefore you have a right to assemble anywhere you wish (it's in most constitutional law.) The fact of having a reason/purpose to be at any point as an associated group is irrelevant.

In the matter of the OWS protests there are many that society itself expect to protest on their behalf. Do not be fooled by those who are nervous of any protest action.

refusing to be moved on by any unjust laws is a form of civil dissobedience and in most lands is not a crime when proved as an act to unjust laws. The force commonly used today at protests by authorities is unjust in the eyes of the common people and therefore it is totally acceptable to stand your ground.

You'd be surprised how many 'undercovers' authorities use at these protests to cause trouble or violence. if in doubt of a protestor look at the shoes they wear or look for common colours amongst those pretending to be protestors. this is how they avoid being arrested themselves.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:42 pm

oh and by the way ....you do not have to "comply" with a police officers warnings or direction if you believe the order or direction is unlawful or not applicable to yourself . Otherwise we'd have police officers having us shoot our mothers or anyone could be tossed into the back of a police van for just going about their business.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:50 pm

theia;1376733 wrote: I wish I knew more too...if the police pepper sprayed the students without warning, then that's disgraceful. If the students were warned that if they didn't move they would be sprayed, then the outcome was the students' choice.And if the student had been warned they'd be shot, would that also be warranted? Of course the student knew what was coming, that was their point of doing what they did. Pepper spray is not and equal response to peaceful demonstrations and they were pointing that out. The fact that these students were willing to suffer the consequences of this brutality says a lot about them. Their parents can hold their heads up high.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:01 pm

I was thinking (and it kind of hurt) that if they wanted to break up peaceful demonstrators that were blocking public walkways, how about a blast of high pressure water?

theia · Post by **theia** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:58 pm

Ahso!;1376883 wrote: And if the student had been warned they'd be shot, would that also be warranted? Of course the student knew what was coming, that was their point of doing what they did. Pepper spray is not and equal response to peaceful demonstrations and they were pointing that out. The fact that these students were willing to suffer the consequences of this brutality says a lot about them. Their parents can hold their heads up high.

Well, if, as you state, the students knew what was coming and that this was the point of doing what they did, then surely they achieved their goal by choosing to remain seated? And if, as you further state, they wanted to point out that pepper spraying was an inappropriate response to a peaceful demonstration, then by choosing to remain seated, they achieved that too.

And, as a matter of interest, how would you judge the one or two who chose to walk away? Would their parents have to hang their heads?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:05 pm

theia;1376903 wrote: Well, if, as you state, the students knew what was coming and that this was the point of doing what they did, then surely they achieved their goal by choosing to remain seated? And if, as you further state, they wanted to point out that pepper spraying was an inappropriate response to a peaceful demonstration, then by choosing to remain seated, they achieved that too.The choice was the authorities, not the students. The students could only predict with a certain amount of accuracy how the police would respond, and they based that on similar situations around the country.

theia;1376903 wrote: And, as a matter of interest, how would you judge the one or two who chose to walk away? Would their parents have to hang their heads?No, of course not. Mine was a response to anyone who would consider those students who remained as unwise.

theia · Post by **theia** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:26 pm

Ahso!;1376905 wrote: The choice was the authorities, not the students. The students could only predict with a certain amount of accuracy how the police would respond, and they based that on similar situations around the country.

No, of course not. Mine was a response to anyone who would consider those students who remained as unwise.

Ah right, I was responding to you saying that "the students knew..." I didn't realise that you meant that "the students could only predict..."

The ultimate choice was that of the students. If you take that away from them, I think you portray them as victims rather than people who chose to endure the pepper spraying in order to make their point.

I haven't heard anyone say that they thought the students who remained were unwise.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:35 pm

theia;1376906 wrote: Ah right, I was responding to you saying that "the students knew..." I didn't realise that you meant that "the students could only predict..."

The ultimate choice was that of the students. If you take that away from them, I think you portray them as victims rather than people who chose to endure the pepper spraying in order to make their point.

I haven't heard anyone say that they thought the students who remained were unwise.The students have been called much worse than that from people in my country. The ultimate choice here lies with the police.

The students chose to demonstrate and they chose to demonstrate in a peaceful manner. The authorities, who possess all the power, chose a brutal method of response to those peaceful demonstrations.

Yes, in this case the students are the immediate victims, but in the long run, unless the authorities are brought to account for themselves, every American from here on out is the victim. It's a sacrifice the students are making on behalf of all American's civil rights. Quite an honorable "choice" if you ask me.

tabby · Post by **tabby** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:26 pm

How dangerous is pepper spray? ~~~~~> Police vs. Occupiers: How dangerous is pepper spray? - The Week

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:52 pm

Fox News host Megyn Kelly dismissed the crowd-control weapon as "a food product, essentially."

I'd pay good money to see this idiot sprayed in the face exactly the same way the protesters were.

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:16 pm

tabby;1376913 wrote: How dangerous is pepper spray? ~~~~~> Police vs. Occupiers: How dangerous is pepper spray? - The Week

The officers know how it feels and what it does, too. They have to experience it during training. It might be

more dangerous for an asthmatic, but still, it is not usually a permanent affect.