To refocus some debate going on in the Ultrasound thread, I'm starting a new one.
If someone is pro-choice, as I am, I ask them to be honest about whether or not a woman's choice is determined just by access to abortion. If they are really pro-choice they should be promoting options for women who wish to have a child but feel like they can't.
As a secondary issue, I am asserting that post abortion stress syndrome (PASS) is a reality. It's extremely important that it be recognized so that more women in distress can get help.
Is It A Choice If You Don't See Another Option?
Is It A Choice If You Don't See Another Option?
To repeat my recommendations from the other thread:
Things I think a woman should be asked to think about before an abortion is granted:
1)Are they considering abortion because someone else has asked them abort?
If yes, they should be given counselling until the decision is being made without influence from anyone else.
2)Are they considering abortion for financial reasons?
If yes, they should be counseled until they are sure that financial concerns outweigh any emotional concerns they might face later on.
These first two questions are to reduce the number of women who are not having an abortion by choice.
No one asked me those questions. I'd have passed the first one and failed the second. If you can answer "no" to both those questions then you are actually making a choice. If you answer "yes" to either then it is not actually a choice you've made willingly.
Information that should be given before an abortion is granted:
A list of symptoms they may experience both physical AND emotional. Affirmation that a decision to abort is entirely personal and that only she can decide what is right for her. A pamphlet should be given listing the resources available for post abortion support, both physical and emotional support.
In the film industry we had a ritual that we performed in the best interest of the applicants. We tried to talk them out of getting into the film industry. We told them all the horror stories we had in our arsenal, we stripped them of the illusion of the glamour they might think accompanies the job. If they still wanted to get into film we admitted them with open arms because they had a chance of surviving the ordeal.
If we did that just for career counselling, why don't we do that for women considering abortion?
Things I think a woman should be asked to think about before an abortion is granted:
1)Are they considering abortion because someone else has asked them abort?
If yes, they should be given counselling until the decision is being made without influence from anyone else.
2)Are they considering abortion for financial reasons?
If yes, they should be counseled until they are sure that financial concerns outweigh any emotional concerns they might face later on.
These first two questions are to reduce the number of women who are not having an abortion by choice.
No one asked me those questions. I'd have passed the first one and failed the second. If you can answer "no" to both those questions then you are actually making a choice. If you answer "yes" to either then it is not actually a choice you've made willingly.
Information that should be given before an abortion is granted:
A list of symptoms they may experience both physical AND emotional. Affirmation that a decision to abort is entirely personal and that only she can decide what is right for her. A pamphlet should be given listing the resources available for post abortion support, both physical and emotional support.
In the film industry we had a ritual that we performed in the best interest of the applicants. We tried to talk them out of getting into the film industry. We told them all the horror stories we had in our arsenal, we stripped them of the illusion of the glamour they might think accompanies the job. If they still wanted to get into film we admitted them with open arms because they had a chance of surviving the ordeal.
If we did that just for career counselling, why don't we do that for women considering abortion?
Is It A Choice If You Don't See Another Option?
Maybe I'm not understanding the question but putting a child up for adoption has never, to my knowledge anyway, caused firebombings and doctor murders. It's ALWAYS been an accepted method of "pro-choice".
Is It A Choice If You Don't See Another Option?
What about improving the social help available to allow a woman to have the child without sacrificing their careers?
Is It A Choice If You Don't See Another Option?
My choice to abort was a Sophie's Choice.
Is It A Choice If You Don't See Another Option?
That is a good question for the folks at Planned Parenthood.
I have asked a couple of people who worked at PP, how all that works, but they said they never discuss how PP works to outsiders.
I can understand that to a degree, given the fact that the organization seem to be constantly in the Moralists' bulls-eye, but if they cannot disclose how they work, how do they defend themselves from the attacks?
It must be a choice.
I think, somehow, any counseling given to those who seek to terminate needs to include your questions, and every effort should be made to help make a choice that the patient can truly live with.
I have asked a couple of people who worked at PP, how all that works, but they said they never discuss how PP works to outsiders.
I can understand that to a degree, given the fact that the organization seem to be constantly in the Moralists' bulls-eye, but if they cannot disclose how they work, how do they defend themselves from the attacks?
It must be a choice.
I think, somehow, any counseling given to those who seek to terminate needs to include your questions, and every effort should be made to help make a choice that the patient can truly live with.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Is It A Choice If You Don't See Another Option?
The right to abort should be side by side with the option to not abort.
Is It A Choice If You Don't See Another Option?
My abortion story.
Graphic details follow. I tell this story both to heal from it and to try and explain to other women considering abortion what they might experience.
The circumstances:
I was married. About a year after our separation I became pregnant again. I had a one night fling with a much younger guy. We used a condom. I got pregnant anyway.
My ex-husband was maliciously hoping that I would fail to provide for our daughter. He refused to help with daycare, he was inconsistent with visitations, often setting it up so I would have to pay a nanny for a full day then calling to have our daughter for the day after I had made other arrangements. He moved in with a girlfriend a few months after our split and it was obvious he'd been seeing her prior to the separation. Despite his lack of co-operation I had managed to get my career back on track and actually felt like I would be able to take care of my kid with or without his support. When I found out I was pregnant, everything shattered. I knew my body didn't handle pregnancy well. I'd had pre-eclampsia with my first, been put on bedrest and even if that didn't happen again I'd be off work for 7-8 months with no maternity leave because I was self employed. I had overcome life's challenge only to be stricken with another crisis before I'd really remedied the last. I panicked.
The decision:
I decided on abortion because I saw any other choice as a betrayal of my duty to care for my existing child. I had no family near by. I had no friends to help me with my children, all of my acquaintances were working professionals. I had recently been betrayed by family to a cost of $10, 000: all of my savings.
I fabricated a story. I told myself that I was carrying an evil child. I convinced myself that if I gave birth to it, it would be a murdering SOB with no morals and no ability to feel compassion. I called a clinic to arrange an abortion. I informed the father that I was pregnant and having an abortion. I was appalled that he added to his agreement it was my choice, that he'd be more active if I decided to give birth to it. That reinforced my conviction to abort. I didn't want any man controlling my happiness ever again. I was also appalled that he entertained the idea of continuing to see me. To me, evil intervened with fate and he was the messenger. I hated him. I settled instead on killing his child. I'm sure he's not a bad guy, he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I do sometimes wonder if the knowledge someone so utterly rejected his seed hurt him as badly as I hurt now.
Nevertheless, I put my blinders on and went to the clinic. They asked me something. I think it was if I was sure I wanted an abortion. I answered that I had no ability to take care of another child at this point in my life. They told me to book an ultrasound, have them send the results to the clinic and that I had to wait until I was 6 weeks pregnant before they could terminate.
The prep:
I was devastated that I had to wait. I had known the next day that I was pregnant and already waited over three weeks to get the test result. I had to start a film job to pay the bills and I had to carry on as if nothing was wrong. I hated that baby. I drank profusely so that I could detach from the idea of a healthy child I was about to kill. I cursed it every night with every glass I poured. I answered my nausea with "**** you, you evil bastard. one of us is going to survive this and it isn't you." I made it to my ultrasound appointment. I was dehydrated so they embarrassed me for being daft and made me drink more water then walk up and down the stairs until the water flooded my bladder enough to see the pregnancy. I had been trying to cause a spontaneous abortion so I wouldn't have to undergo the procedure. I peed blood for most of the weeks that proceeded the abortion but I couldn't get it to die. The ultrasound revealed that I had a cyst aside from the pregnancy and that's what had been bleeding so much. I had to wait until six weeks because, until that point in development, they can't reassemble the body parts to make sure they got the whole fetus out.
I told two people: my assistant so she'd know why I had to leave set so often, and the woman who gracefully and unquestioningly agreed to drive me home from the clinic.
The procedure:
Finally the day arrived when I could stop blocking my mind and be done with the agony. I went for a walk and had a smoke after getting a bus there and arriving early. When I went in, I was taken to the abortion room rather quickly. Put on the gown, feet in the stirrups, the female doctor arrived explained that I would feel a prick as they froze my cervix. It was a rather prolonged, intense prick. I remember squirming. I drifted aside like I imagine most people do at pap smears so you don't think of what's happening to you as personal. I was conscious for the whole procedure. She then explained that she was dialating my cervix to extract the tissue from my uterus. I don't recall if that hurt. I only recall starting to make jokes about how horrid children can be. There were two nurses in the room. I remember them exchangin pained looks while I rambled away. I stopped talking because it became obvious that no one gave a **** what I was feeling they just wanted to finish their day and get the hell out of there. I could feel it when they vacuumed my baby out of my womb. It was like an intense cramp. As soon as it was done, they wrapped the sheet under me around my groin and walked me out to the recovery room.
Recovery:
The recovery room was an area with about twenty lawn chairs mostly filled with other women who had just finished having their babies killed. At least half of them were crying. I was told I had to stay there for at least fifteen minutes before they could let me leave. I don't remember anything but watching the clock and hoping my friend had the engine revving when I was allowed to go outside. I do remember that she drove me home and didn't say anything. It was a beautiful, wonderful silence. I know she loved me and just wanted me to be okay. I'm so thankful that she was wise enough to say nothing.
I was told to call if I had excessive bleeding. I did. I called. They told me I was fine. I bled for almost a year. I payed thousands of dollars in naturopathic and accupuncture bills trying to stop the bleeding. I took prescription doses of ibuprofen. I didn't stop bleeding until a very close friend of mine finally said "you're a mother, you know what you've done. You lost a child." So I sculpted a clay baby that I could bury. I asked its forgiveness and laid it to rest properly. I finally stopped bleeding.
I vowed to never have an abortion again and my daughter knows that if she ever finds herself pregnant I will do everything in my means to make sure she can provide for that baby.
Nine years after my abortion I was pregnant again. I was overjoyed, even though the father asked me to abort. I lost that baby. I felt it was a punishment for what I had done. I haven't said it before but... I didn't just lose the baby, I was told the baby would not survive outside of my womb. It was in distress and dying. I was offered medical termination to euthanize. It's weird that euthanasia is only available before a person is born. I fought between my refusal to abort and my absolute belief in euthanasia, knowing that if I gave birth the other option would be taken away. I believe I did the right thing. The pain of looking at Noah's little hand and foot prints now is nothing next to the pain I'd have had watching him slowly die and knowing that he was suffering both in the womb and out. The nurses were amazing. They knew I wanted my baby. I had to go get an amniotic type shot to stop my baby's heart. Then I had to go home and call when contractions started. My daughter knew I was pregnant and was so excited. I didn't tell her that I was losing the baby until after it was over. I didn't tell anyone. I went to the hospital by cab and no one in the world knew where I was except the nurses. I couldn't bear having anyone next to me who might make me think about what was happening. I could hear other women next door to me laughing and nursing their newborns. I had to share a bathroom with them. I did sudoku. The only thing that kept my mind off the reality that my baby was dying was math. For the next two months I prayed to God to forgive me for my abortion. I cursed God for punishing my other babies. I told myself it was probably not connected. I stopped caring if it was connected and realized just how much I'll always grieve the first baby I ever lost. I can't ever get it back. **** I wish I could. You have no idea. I'm over 40 now and I don't think I'll have the chance again. I lost it. I lost so much. When you're young you think you have all the time in the world.
So, I believe there are times when abortion is right... but I believe that a lot of abortions are performed on women who want their child but feel they have no options. Maybe I lost Noah because of the scar tissue left behind by the first abortion. Maybe it was just fate. The only thing I know is that I hate a world that makes women choose between giving life and having a life. What happened to us? How can this be true? We're so busy trying to survive and be successful that we've stopped being a community. When a woman has to abort because she can't provide food for her family... we all failed.
Graphic details follow. I tell this story both to heal from it and to try and explain to other women considering abortion what they might experience.
The circumstances:
I was married. About a year after our separation I became pregnant again. I had a one night fling with a much younger guy. We used a condom. I got pregnant anyway.
My ex-husband was maliciously hoping that I would fail to provide for our daughter. He refused to help with daycare, he was inconsistent with visitations, often setting it up so I would have to pay a nanny for a full day then calling to have our daughter for the day after I had made other arrangements. He moved in with a girlfriend a few months after our split and it was obvious he'd been seeing her prior to the separation. Despite his lack of co-operation I had managed to get my career back on track and actually felt like I would be able to take care of my kid with or without his support. When I found out I was pregnant, everything shattered. I knew my body didn't handle pregnancy well. I'd had pre-eclampsia with my first, been put on bedrest and even if that didn't happen again I'd be off work for 7-8 months with no maternity leave because I was self employed. I had overcome life's challenge only to be stricken with another crisis before I'd really remedied the last. I panicked.
The decision:
I decided on abortion because I saw any other choice as a betrayal of my duty to care for my existing child. I had no family near by. I had no friends to help me with my children, all of my acquaintances were working professionals. I had recently been betrayed by family to a cost of $10, 000: all of my savings.
I fabricated a story. I told myself that I was carrying an evil child. I convinced myself that if I gave birth to it, it would be a murdering SOB with no morals and no ability to feel compassion. I called a clinic to arrange an abortion. I informed the father that I was pregnant and having an abortion. I was appalled that he added to his agreement it was my choice, that he'd be more active if I decided to give birth to it. That reinforced my conviction to abort. I didn't want any man controlling my happiness ever again. I was also appalled that he entertained the idea of continuing to see me. To me, evil intervened with fate and he was the messenger. I hated him. I settled instead on killing his child. I'm sure he's not a bad guy, he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I do sometimes wonder if the knowledge someone so utterly rejected his seed hurt him as badly as I hurt now.
Nevertheless, I put my blinders on and went to the clinic. They asked me something. I think it was if I was sure I wanted an abortion. I answered that I had no ability to take care of another child at this point in my life. They told me to book an ultrasound, have them send the results to the clinic and that I had to wait until I was 6 weeks pregnant before they could terminate.
The prep:
I was devastated that I had to wait. I had known the next day that I was pregnant and already waited over three weeks to get the test result. I had to start a film job to pay the bills and I had to carry on as if nothing was wrong. I hated that baby. I drank profusely so that I could detach from the idea of a healthy child I was about to kill. I cursed it every night with every glass I poured. I answered my nausea with "**** you, you evil bastard. one of us is going to survive this and it isn't you." I made it to my ultrasound appointment. I was dehydrated so they embarrassed me for being daft and made me drink more water then walk up and down the stairs until the water flooded my bladder enough to see the pregnancy. I had been trying to cause a spontaneous abortion so I wouldn't have to undergo the procedure. I peed blood for most of the weeks that proceeded the abortion but I couldn't get it to die. The ultrasound revealed that I had a cyst aside from the pregnancy and that's what had been bleeding so much. I had to wait until six weeks because, until that point in development, they can't reassemble the body parts to make sure they got the whole fetus out.
I told two people: my assistant so she'd know why I had to leave set so often, and the woman who gracefully and unquestioningly agreed to drive me home from the clinic.
The procedure:
Finally the day arrived when I could stop blocking my mind and be done with the agony. I went for a walk and had a smoke after getting a bus there and arriving early. When I went in, I was taken to the abortion room rather quickly. Put on the gown, feet in the stirrups, the female doctor arrived explained that I would feel a prick as they froze my cervix. It was a rather prolonged, intense prick. I remember squirming. I drifted aside like I imagine most people do at pap smears so you don't think of what's happening to you as personal. I was conscious for the whole procedure. She then explained that she was dialating my cervix to extract the tissue from my uterus. I don't recall if that hurt. I only recall starting to make jokes about how horrid children can be. There were two nurses in the room. I remember them exchangin pained looks while I rambled away. I stopped talking because it became obvious that no one gave a **** what I was feeling they just wanted to finish their day and get the hell out of there. I could feel it when they vacuumed my baby out of my womb. It was like an intense cramp. As soon as it was done, they wrapped the sheet under me around my groin and walked me out to the recovery room.
Recovery:
The recovery room was an area with about twenty lawn chairs mostly filled with other women who had just finished having their babies killed. At least half of them were crying. I was told I had to stay there for at least fifteen minutes before they could let me leave. I don't remember anything but watching the clock and hoping my friend had the engine revving when I was allowed to go outside. I do remember that she drove me home and didn't say anything. It was a beautiful, wonderful silence. I know she loved me and just wanted me to be okay. I'm so thankful that she was wise enough to say nothing.
I was told to call if I had excessive bleeding. I did. I called. They told me I was fine. I bled for almost a year. I payed thousands of dollars in naturopathic and accupuncture bills trying to stop the bleeding. I took prescription doses of ibuprofen. I didn't stop bleeding until a very close friend of mine finally said "you're a mother, you know what you've done. You lost a child." So I sculpted a clay baby that I could bury. I asked its forgiveness and laid it to rest properly. I finally stopped bleeding.
I vowed to never have an abortion again and my daughter knows that if she ever finds herself pregnant I will do everything in my means to make sure she can provide for that baby.
Nine years after my abortion I was pregnant again. I was overjoyed, even though the father asked me to abort. I lost that baby. I felt it was a punishment for what I had done. I haven't said it before but... I didn't just lose the baby, I was told the baby would not survive outside of my womb. It was in distress and dying. I was offered medical termination to euthanize. It's weird that euthanasia is only available before a person is born. I fought between my refusal to abort and my absolute belief in euthanasia, knowing that if I gave birth the other option would be taken away. I believe I did the right thing. The pain of looking at Noah's little hand and foot prints now is nothing next to the pain I'd have had watching him slowly die and knowing that he was suffering both in the womb and out. The nurses were amazing. They knew I wanted my baby. I had to go get an amniotic type shot to stop my baby's heart. Then I had to go home and call when contractions started. My daughter knew I was pregnant and was so excited. I didn't tell her that I was losing the baby until after it was over. I didn't tell anyone. I went to the hospital by cab and no one in the world knew where I was except the nurses. I couldn't bear having anyone next to me who might make me think about what was happening. I could hear other women next door to me laughing and nursing their newborns. I had to share a bathroom with them. I did sudoku. The only thing that kept my mind off the reality that my baby was dying was math. For the next two months I prayed to God to forgive me for my abortion. I cursed God for punishing my other babies. I told myself it was probably not connected. I stopped caring if it was connected and realized just how much I'll always grieve the first baby I ever lost. I can't ever get it back. **** I wish I could. You have no idea. I'm over 40 now and I don't think I'll have the chance again. I lost it. I lost so much. When you're young you think you have all the time in the world.
So, I believe there are times when abortion is right... but I believe that a lot of abortions are performed on women who want their child but feel they have no options. Maybe I lost Noah because of the scar tissue left behind by the first abortion. Maybe it was just fate. The only thing I know is that I hate a world that makes women choose between giving life and having a life. What happened to us? How can this be true? We're so busy trying to survive and be successful that we've stopped being a community. When a woman has to abort because she can't provide food for her family... we all failed.
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6631
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
Is It A Choice If You Don't See Another Option?
LarsMac:
I think, somehow, any counseling given to those who seek to terminate needs to include your questions, and every effort should be made to help make a choice that the patient can truly live with.
LarsMac--obviously you are one of those who think women need some type of special consideration for their decisions. That is most condescending and what no feminist ever had in mind when we fought this good fight. Adult women are as able to make mature decisions, or do you not think we have the same cognitive processes as you? If you went for a vasectomy, who would be hounding you? What if you use those viagras for hookers, is someone butting in to ask you what you intend to use the viagra for? Do you assume that because a question is a large one, the poor woman just can't decide on her own? How dare you suggest that women should be forced to accept counseling if they don't request it on their own. She has made her decision--either respect it or admit you think it's fine to impose your will on others. It's just not anyone's business. It is treating women like children. We don't need to be set straight as to what is good for us. It is disrespectful. Having her best interests at heart is not enough of a reason to suspect the woman is not being sufficiently informed to make the decision without your help- is she not being competent? For you hunters out there it's open season on women's rights.
I am most distressed to see just how easy it is to fool Canadian women into thinking that ultrasound is good for them! Something necessary, rather than what it is--a new way for an industry to make money off of them. I would look into who owns these clinics, who is making the buck off this--assuming it's not an anti-choice agenda. Ah, well, there's a sucker born every minute.
Koan, I didn't read your abortion story yet, just glanced at it. I will read it because I have an interest in you as a person. I won't read it now, because in lieu of this discussion it's just another personal drama among many. I did notice this:
The right to abort should be side by side with the option to not abort.
That makes absolutely no sense.
I have a friend, a Catholic, who feels abortion was legalized so men could have their cake & eat it too, so that they could willy-nilly knock up women & coerce them to abort & remain their playthings. That's absurd. This is a women's issue. She can't see it that way.
I'll repeat this till I'm dead: Abortion on demand (or request, if one prefers) No apologies. No excuses. No reason necessary. It's our right, it is the law. A law being chipped at, chip chip chip away.
I think, somehow, any counseling given to those who seek to terminate needs to include your questions, and every effort should be made to help make a choice that the patient can truly live with.
LarsMac--obviously you are one of those who think women need some type of special consideration for their decisions. That is most condescending and what no feminist ever had in mind when we fought this good fight. Adult women are as able to make mature decisions, or do you not think we have the same cognitive processes as you? If you went for a vasectomy, who would be hounding you? What if you use those viagras for hookers, is someone butting in to ask you what you intend to use the viagra for? Do you assume that because a question is a large one, the poor woman just can't decide on her own? How dare you suggest that women should be forced to accept counseling if they don't request it on their own. She has made her decision--either respect it or admit you think it's fine to impose your will on others. It's just not anyone's business. It is treating women like children. We don't need to be set straight as to what is good for us. It is disrespectful. Having her best interests at heart is not enough of a reason to suspect the woman is not being sufficiently informed to make the decision without your help- is she not being competent? For you hunters out there it's open season on women's rights.
I am most distressed to see just how easy it is to fool Canadian women into thinking that ultrasound is good for them! Something necessary, rather than what it is--a new way for an industry to make money off of them. I would look into who owns these clinics, who is making the buck off this--assuming it's not an anti-choice agenda. Ah, well, there's a sucker born every minute.
Koan, I didn't read your abortion story yet, just glanced at it. I will read it because I have an interest in you as a person. I won't read it now, because in lieu of this discussion it's just another personal drama among many. I did notice this:
The right to abort should be side by side with the option to not abort.
That makes absolutely no sense.
I have a friend, a Catholic, who feels abortion was legalized so men could have their cake & eat it too, so that they could willy-nilly knock up women & coerce them to abort & remain their playthings. That's absurd. This is a women's issue. She can't see it that way.
I'll repeat this till I'm dead: Abortion on demand (or request, if one prefers) No apologies. No excuses. No reason necessary. It's our right, it is the law. A law being chipped at, chip chip chip away.
Is It A Choice If You Don't See Another Option?
The right to abort should be side by side with the option to not abort.
I don't know about Canada but here in Wa state the support system for single parents is tremendous compared to other places. I know people who have actually raised children for years on support.
Women do have choices although in some cases not the best options. That's part of life. All choices have consequences, I never had children, I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND anyone making the same choice. Even being male I can partially understand Koans pain if only at a distance.
I don't know about Canada but here in Wa state the support system for single parents is tremendous compared to other places. I know people who have actually raised children for years on support.
Women do have choices although in some cases not the best options. That's part of life. All choices have consequences, I never had children, I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND anyone making the same choice. Even being male I can partially understand Koans pain if only at a distance.
Is It A Choice If You Don't See Another Option?
1) I'm very happy they did an ultrasound so I know they were being as thorough as possible in my treatment. I'm one of the people who was damaged physically by the process so you can't fool me that it's totally safe.
2) You can't pretend that it's only mature women who's opinions matter most since they aren't the majority of women who are getting abortions.
3) You can't pretend that women aren't being forced to have abortions. They are forced by parents, boyfriends, and spouses all the time.
4) 74% of women polled about their abortion said it was due to financial hardship
5) If you can't figure out what I mean by wanting the option to keep your baby as equally available as the option to abort, you probably shouldn't be taking on a mantra until you've worked that out.
2) You can't pretend that it's only mature women who's opinions matter most since they aren't the majority of women who are getting abortions.
3) You can't pretend that women aren't being forced to have abortions. They are forced by parents, boyfriends, and spouses all the time.
4) 74% of women polled about their abortion said it was due to financial hardship
5) If you can't figure out what I mean by wanting the option to keep your baby as equally available as the option to abort, you probably shouldn't be taking on a mantra until you've worked that out.
Is It A Choice If You Don't See Another Option?
If you can't figure out what I mean by wanting the option to keep your baby as equally available as the option to abort, you probably shouldn't be taking on a mantra until you've worked that out.
In order for a person to have an equal option either way in this situation it seems to me it would be a matter of enabling/supporting the person from both ends.
Such things exist.
In order for a person to have an equal option either way in this situation it seems to me it would be a matter of enabling/supporting the person from both ends.
Such things exist.
Is It A Choice If You Don't See Another Option?
Scrat;1386042 wrote: In order for a person to have an equal option either way in this situation it seems to me it would be a matter of enabling/supporting the person from both ends.
Such things exist.
Not really up here. The cost of living far exceeds the welfare support. In reality, most of the time the hardship has to do with losing a career or not being able to finish school, ending up with massive debt from student loans or payments committed to when the career was starting. What's needed isn't an allowance of below poverty line payments, it's a system that allows women to continue their educations and careers while being a mother.
Such things exist.
Not really up here. The cost of living far exceeds the welfare support. In reality, most of the time the hardship has to do with losing a career or not being able to finish school, ending up with massive debt from student loans or payments committed to when the career was starting. What's needed isn't an allowance of below poverty line payments, it's a system that allows women to continue their educations and careers while being a mother.
Is It A Choice If You Don't See Another Option?
I read your story koan and it is quite a story..
I guess it's not realy a choice if you don't see another option (for whatever reason)
I'm not fond of children and I don't particullarly want children. I wouldn't make the choice of an abortion if i were pregnant though (unless it's caused by a rape).. but that's my choice. If i'd choose to abort it would also be my choice.
It should be the persons own choice to abort or not. I must say there will be people who have abortions all the time because they are careless.. I'm talking about the people who have like 6 abortions because o woopsie forgot to use a condom and they should just have a historectamy or something.. But in normal cases where "****" happens, i this it should always be the persons own choice to abort or not without being " condemned " for it
I guess it's not realy a choice if you don't see another option (for whatever reason)
I'm not fond of children and I don't particullarly want children. I wouldn't make the choice of an abortion if i were pregnant though (unless it's caused by a rape).. but that's my choice. If i'd choose to abort it would also be my choice.
It should be the persons own choice to abort or not. I must say there will be people who have abortions all the time because they are careless.. I'm talking about the people who have like 6 abortions because o woopsie forgot to use a condom and they should just have a historectamy or something.. But in normal cases where "****" happens, i this it should always be the persons own choice to abort or not without being " condemned " for it
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AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6631
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
Is It A Choice If You Don't See Another Option?
My choice to abort was a Sophie's Choice.
No, it was not. Any resemblance to your story & the horror of the Holocaust is in your own mind. Comparing your circumstances to living a genocide cheapens the memories of the millions of people who didn't survive. Please don't use your situation in comparison to the suffering holocaust victims endured in the ghettoes and concentration camps that filled Germany, Poland; or to the physical and mental anguish and torment that describe the murdered victims of the "master race".
No, it was not. Any resemblance to your story & the horror of the Holocaust is in your own mind. Comparing your circumstances to living a genocide cheapens the memories of the millions of people who didn't survive. Please don't use your situation in comparison to the suffering holocaust victims endured in the ghettoes and concentration camps that filled Germany, Poland; or to the physical and mental anguish and torment that describe the murdered victims of the "master race".
Is It A Choice If You Don't See Another Option?
AnneBoleyn;1386106 wrote: No, it was not. Any resemblance to your story & the horror of the Holocaust is in your own mind. Comparing your circumstances to living a genocide cheapens the memories of the millions of people who didn't survive. Please don't use your situation in comparison to the suffering holocaust victims endured in the ghettoes and concentration camps that filled Germany, Poland; or to the physical and mental anguish and torment that describe the murdered victims of the "master race".
Guess that's kind of how I felt when hearing the ultrasound compared to rape.
Guess that's kind of how I felt when hearing the ultrasound compared to rape.
Is It A Choice If You Don't See Another Option?
I'm less concerned with outside attitudes than inside.
I don't think anyone should be given an abortion until they've had counselling to ascertain they have thought it through. I panicked. I didn't see how I could possibly care for another child. Now I've had injuries and had to rebuild my life from scratch more than once, I know I could have done it. At the time all I knew was that I had no money in the bank, was self-employed so I didn't qualify for EI maternity benefits and I had no family to move in with. What I needed was to have someone tell me to stop panicking and be sure I understood the choice I was making. All this hysteria about violating a woman's rights by asking simple questions is insane.
I'm normally a really rational person. I was not rational. I lost my ****ing mind. I was making up horror stories in my imagination and counting the days until I could kill the "satan spawn" because I had recently been betrayed by every person in the world I thought I could trust.
How about all the pro-life people try to actually save some babies by putting their money into a campaign to help women choose life instead of to prevent them from having an option. AND How about all the pro-choice people put their efforts into making sure that every woman getting an abortion actually knows she has an option to keep it?
I don't think anyone should be given an abortion until they've had counselling to ascertain they have thought it through. I panicked. I didn't see how I could possibly care for another child. Now I've had injuries and had to rebuild my life from scratch more than once, I know I could have done it. At the time all I knew was that I had no money in the bank, was self-employed so I didn't qualify for EI maternity benefits and I had no family to move in with. What I needed was to have someone tell me to stop panicking and be sure I understood the choice I was making. All this hysteria about violating a woman's rights by asking simple questions is insane.
I'm normally a really rational person. I was not rational. I lost my ****ing mind. I was making up horror stories in my imagination and counting the days until I could kill the "satan spawn" because I had recently been betrayed by every person in the world I thought I could trust.
How about all the pro-life people try to actually save some babies by putting their money into a campaign to help women choose life instead of to prevent them from having an option. AND How about all the pro-choice people put their efforts into making sure that every woman getting an abortion actually knows she has an option to keep it?
Is It A Choice If You Don't See Another Option?
Anyone opposing these two questions being asked is not pro-choice.
1)Are they considering abortion because someone else has asked them abort?
If yes, they should be given counselling until the decision is being made without influence from anyone else.
2)Are they considering abortion for financial reasons?
If yes, they should be counseled until they are sure that financial concerns outweigh any emotional concerns they might face later on.
If they answer "yes" to the first, the pro-choice people should take the mandate to found quality shelters for women who want to have their baby but are being threatened by other people.
If they answer "yes" to the second, the pro-life people should take the mandate to start funding financial support systems for career/student women who can't afford to have their baby.
1)Are they considering abortion because someone else has asked them abort?
If yes, they should be given counselling until the decision is being made without influence from anyone else.
2)Are they considering abortion for financial reasons?
If yes, they should be counseled until they are sure that financial concerns outweigh any emotional concerns they might face later on.
If they answer "yes" to the first, the pro-choice people should take the mandate to found quality shelters for women who want to have their baby but are being threatened by other people.
If they answer "yes" to the second, the pro-life people should take the mandate to start funding financial support systems for career/student women who can't afford to have their baby.
Is It A Choice If You Don't See Another Option?
Not really up here. The cost of living far exceeds the welfare support. In reality, most of the time the hardship has to do with losing a career or not being able to finish school, ending up with massive debt from student loans or payments committed to when the career was starting. What's needed isn't an allowance of below poverty line payments, it's a system that allows women to continue their educations and careers while being a mother.
I checked with my wife about her friend who is raising her kids alone. She does get help from the state but it sure is not enough to support her and the kids. She sells things on E-bay and makes ends meet. I'm not that well informed apparently.
There is a safety net but it is limited, insufficient.
I checked with my wife about her friend who is raising her kids alone. She does get help from the state but it sure is not enough to support her and the kids. She sells things on E-bay and makes ends meet. I'm not that well informed apparently.
There is a safety net but it is limited, insufficient.
Is It A Choice If You Don't See Another Option?
Because of my back injury, I gave up custody of my first kid to her dad for a couple of years. After having built my way back to being able to provide the basics again I realize now that I could have made it somehow if I'd had the second. I didn't know that back then.