Ultrasound Before an Abortion?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:22 pm

Transvaginal ultrasound probe

Eek! Does the doctor play cheap '70s porn music during the exam?

* Dow chika dow dow *

Post by **Betty Boop** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:04 am

Accountable;1388227 wrote:

Transvaginal ultrasound probe

Eek! Does the doctor play cheap '70s porn music during the exam?

* Dow chika dow dow *

It looks scary but it's less invasive than any doctor's or nurse's finger, it doesn't go 'in' too far actually.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:40 am

If it vibrated, I'd consider going in for weekly check-ups.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:06 pm

snooze, it's dangerous, we think too much alike! I was going to say, but of course I wouldn't, that if it were shaped like a dildo.........................but I wouldn't say that.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:10 pm

Yes, I have to force myself to post comments like that.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:25 pm

Ahso!;1388130 wrote: I'm curious where and how the guilt associated with abortion is borne? Do you think it's natural or constructed from social and moral conditioning, or possibly a mix of both?

Social and moral conditioning. Slave owners in the american south were not troubled by guilt over what they were doing - it was the natural order of things that some should be slaves to their superiors. Infanticide has at various times in history has been, of not openly encouraged, understood as being sometimes necessary. There is no guilt over using contraception but currently there are those who believe contraceptives to be immoral who are trying to prevent their use.

Santorum: birth control harms women and society - YouTube

Is he a serious presidential prospect?

Piers Morgan Confronts Rick Santorum On His Bigotry - YouTube

Posted by koan

you can't ask someone if they've had an abortion? Sheesh. I have. I'm not okay with my choice but I'm entirely comfortable talking about it. If someone thinks they know better than me what it feels like but can't talk about it... then afaic they aren't okay with the whole subject. If you want to stare down someone with experience then bring it. You've done it, you claim it's a happy occasion in your life, fuzzy, so lets debate. If someone wants to sit there without committing to what they do or do not know I'm pretty much of the mind that they can happily abort their opinion just as non-committally. Men can weigh in but their opinions are moot because they aren't women. I lob all the women who haven't had an abortion into the category of men who aren't qualified to know what it feels like. Maybe you're okay with being a murderer. I kind of consider it a badge on my chest of don't **** with me honours. I just refuse to look at it with any other defense than that I did it because I felt it was my life or my kid's. I'm a murderer. I did it legally but I'm still a harsh mother of a bitch for the experience. I have to live with it. If you can't admit to aborting then get out of my ****ing face.

The thing is, surely it was your choice to make.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:36 pm

Regarding the ultrasound "wand". Isn't there a legal term for inserting a foreign object into a woman against her will?

One question I can't seem to fathom is why it is that right-wing male politicians are so afraid of women that they feel the need to legislate every aspect of a woman's life.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:32 pm

One question I can't seem to fathom is why it is that right-wing male politicians are so afraid of women that they feel the need to legislate every aspect of a woman's life.
No biggie. It's called control. There are certain personalities who will want to control & manipulate others to doing what they want. It gives them a sense of power to do this. You can see this type of personality in many places in life.

Corgz · Post by **Corgz** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:04 pm

Accountable;1388086 wrote: Of course! Why be so cruel to a baby as to force it to suffer through the pain and humiliation of adoption? Far, FAR more loving if we just kill it quick. /sarcasm

Is life so unbearable for you?

Ummm I don't no where that comment has come from, actually my life is pretty bloody good considering.

Corgz · Post by **Corgz** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:06 pm

koan;1388113 wrote: The problem with the law seems to be that it did away with human, emotional considerations in deciding what's right, wrong, good for people or bad for them. The law is not there to protect and serve robots.

Actually it is ..you're confusing law with Justice two very seperate things. First you have the law then you have the justice.

Corgz · Post by **Corgz** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:12 pm

Sorry people Keehan didn't log out after he logged me out these are not his words . shall fix that now.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:13 pm

That's better.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:15 pm

Of all the ultrasounds I've had for anything reproductive I've never had an internal one ...EVER!!! Always have been external.

And Koan you say I'm a murderer. I have a very clear view of what murder is ...and abortion is not murder. Actually considering how much of intestines they took out of me recently can the doctor be accused of murdering a portion of my body? We all know that consentsual murder is no defence so technically the doctor is a murderer of my intestines. Hhhmmmm but did he take only a pound of flesh?

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:23 pm

Your intestines contained human DNA, so yes, that was indeed murder.

At least that's the logic as I understand it from reading this thread.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:51 pm

Wandrin;1388338 wrote: One question I can't seem to fathom is why it is that right-wing male politicians are so afraid of women that they feel the need to legislate every aspect of a woman's life.In his book Fire In The Belly, Sam Keen makes the argument that it could be a deep seated jealousy because women have the ability to give life while men can only take it, so they control what they fear. Why woman possess this ability to give life is a mystery to man, so men are driven to create things to make up for it in order to feel relevant.

It's an interesting thought.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:59 pm

Ahso .....Iv'e heard the same reasoning but mainly to enforce and control. Peak times for domestic violence in a womans life is during pregnancy, apparently under the same reasoning.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:07 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1388358 wrote: Ahso .....Iv'e heard the same reasoning but mainly to enforce and control. Peak times for domestic violence in a womans life is during pregnancy, apparently under the same reasoning.I believe Keen makes a similar connection in the book.

As long as humans insist on holding onto essentially the same mysterious myths as were held long ago and refuse to understand what is now proven as fact in life, these fears and jealousies will continue and therefore so shall the abuse and oppression women suffer at the hands of men physically, politically and professionally.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:50 pm

Corgz;1388349 wrote: Ummm I don't no where that comment has come from, actually my life is pretty bloody good considering.

Maybe the comment wasn't meant for you. Did you check to see if it quoted your post?

eta:

fuzzywuzzy;1388352 wrote: [QUOTE=Corgz;1388351]Sorry people Keehan didn't log out after he logged me out these are not his words . shall fix that now.That's better.

Oh okay.

The comment comes as a direct response to your comment. I've decided not to pursue the point, though. I'm writing it off as a cultural difference derived from different histories. Adoption is not a bad thing in this country.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:53 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1388353 wrote: Of all the ultrasounds I've had for anything reproductive I've never had an internal one ...EVER!!! Always have been external.
I didn't know there was anything else until I read this thread.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:02 pm

Accountable;1388366 wrote:

Maybe the comment wasn't meant for you. Did you check to see if it quoted your post?

eta:

Oh okay.

The comment comes as a direct response to your comment. I've decided not to pursue the point, though. I'm writing it off as a cultural difference derived from different histories. Adoption is not a bad thing in this country.

Maybe when I wrote I've had abortions and children I neglected to say I've also been a foster parent ...don't be daft!!! You underestimate me boy, and turn everything into a cultural difference thing .....that makes you a dic'khead!! Adoptions happen all the time...........all over the world!!!

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:04 pm

There are a lot of people who don't want children and there are a lot of people who can't have children ....one does not live to serve the other!!!!!

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:53 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1388369 wrote: Maybe when I wrote I've had abortions and children I neglected to say I've also been a foster parent ...don't be daft!!! You underestimate me boy, and turn everything into a cultural difference thing .....that makes you a dic'khead!! Adoptions happen all the time...........all over the world!!!You don't think we have cultural differences? That makes you an idiot.

Your own words:fuzzywuzzy;1388055 wrote: I'm actually becoming a little pissed off here. what alternatives? And if you say adoption I'll spit chips!!! Because that would be going back to the the days of baby farming and "womens homes".
That's an anti-adoption stance. I don't really give a flying ***** what you've done. I can only go by your words. Your words clearly indicate that you would recommend abortion over adoption, which means you think death is preferable to adoption.

Disagree? I don't give a ***** about that, either. I had left it lie since it was technically off-topic. I'll leave it lie again, if you wish, but I would be stunned if you showed the self-control to leave it alone.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:20 pm

NO actually it doesn't make me an idiot ........It makes me above you .

you know why ? because you think of the future and all the bullshit that goes with that . Instead of the person looking directly in your eye. That's sad. HOw many women have you taken into your household because they are in trouble??? tell me that .

and you think my comment is so off topic? IT IS THE TOPIC!!! But as long as you deny that you're screwed.

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:32 pm

There is no point taking on the arguments for or against abortion unless all parties agree on some basic starting points and are willing to consider what things comprise those starting points. If you have the stance of "never" or "on demand" it's a waste of everyone's time.

My premise here has been that when you make a choice because no other choice is economically viable... it's not a choice. I really wish pro-choice people would be more interested in making sure there is a choice. I really wish pro-life people would realize that life isn't black and white. Aside from that... I know quite a few adopted people who are really glad they weren't aborted. It ain't so bad.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:31 am

That's an anti-adoption stance. I don't really give a flying ***** what you've done. I can only go by your words. Your words clearly indicate that you would recommend abortion over adoption, which means you think death is preferable to adoption.
You are truly missing the point, accountable. That may or may not be because you have never carried a child, or given birth. You don't ask a woman to go through that experience just to give up a baby. If so, then she is indeed being treated as a brood mare. You don't ask a woman to give up almost a year of her life & risk her health for that. Adoption or abortion is the mother's choice, not yours or anyone else's. Of course there is nothing wrong with adoption, geez!

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:15 am

AnneBoleyn;1388436 wrote: Adoption or abortion is the mother's choice.Agreed. I've never said anything different. Any inference you make to the contrary comes from your own bigotry. Not all men live in fear of women nor want to control them. I also refuse to be cowed by women (like you and fuzzy, apparently) who demonize opinions contrary to their own.

AnneBoleyn;1388436 wrote: Of course there is nothing wrong with adoption, geez!Don't tell me, tell fuzzy.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:48 am

I will gladly admit when it comes to a woman's right to choose abortion, no explanations, no apologies----I won't budge an inch. If you feel you are being demonized...........I guess that's your issue. As for fuz, I think she is in agreement with what I said, re: adoption.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:50 pm

AnneBoleyn;1388436 wrote: You are truly missing the point, accountable. That may or may not be because you have never carried a child, or given birth. You don't ask a woman to go through that experience just to give up a baby. If so, then she is indeed being treated as a brood mare. You don't ask a woman to give up almost a year of her life & risk her health for that. Adoption or abortion is the mother's choice, not yours or anyone else's. Of course there is nothing wrong with adoption, geez!

With all due respect here, my connection with my child started from the moment I discovered I was pregnant....I think if it were abortion or adoption.....either would have been just as bad for me.....which ever way it was, I would have been losing my baby......I think adoption would be better actually because you at least are giving the child a chance at a life. I know people who were adopted as well and I know they are very glad to be alive.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:54 pm

koan;1388396 wrote: There is no point taking on the arguments for or against abortion unless all parties agree on some basic starting points and are willing to consider what things comprise those starting points. If you have the stance of "never" or "on demand" it's a waste of everyone's time.

My premise here has been that when you make a choice because no other choice is economically viable... it's not a choice. I really wish pro-choice people would be more interested in making sure there is a choice. I really wish pro-life people would realize that life isn't black and white. Aside from that... I know quite a few adopted people who are really glad they weren't aborted. It ain't so bad.

I have to agree with you that life is not black and white. As my momma's always fond of saying, evey tub has to stand on it's own bottom. We have a choice, and if abotrion is that choice then that's something the person having the abortion and the doctor doing it have to deal with in their own mind. Just like I have the right to my opinion as well. My opinion is affected I know by having had a miscarriage and losing a baby that I wanted, as well as my 23 year battle with infertility before I finally had my Jacob. So I guess my opinion is biased.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:15 pm

Hope6;1388943 wrote: With all due respect here, my connection with my child started from the moment I discovered I was pregnant....I think if it were abortion or adoption.....either would have been just as bad for me.....which ever way it was, I would have been losing my baby......I think adoption would be better actually because you at least are giving the child a chance at a life. I know people who were adopted as well and I know they are very glad to be alive.
And you absolutely should be supported in that decision, that you would carry to term & adopt out. It's a respectable choice. As you say in your response to koan, you are entitled to your opinion. It's when opinion prevents, or interferes with another's rights & choices where I have objections. Your opinion is great for you.

Thanks, Hope, for a great thread!

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:01 pm

Then I guess we've agreed in the big picture. I've never suggested the choice should be taken away. I'm merely saying that a lot of people who abort aren't actually doing it out of choice and until that choice truly exists I consider abortion sketchy at best.