The Christian Business Conncetion

[Lon]

I am not a religious person and care not a whit whether God is left in or out of the U.S. Pledge. I don't care if they say prayers in school, the Congress, in your home or any where. I believe it's your right to believe what you wish. I don't protest against or belong to any organizations that bash any religions.

Having said that-----------

Today I interviewed a nice young man of about 35 that runs his own cleaning business. Vladimir is a Ukaranian immigrant (now a citizen) who felt compelled to tell me that his was a Christian Business. I asked him what he mean't by a Christian business and he went on to explain that he and his wife and workers follow Christian principles in their daily work and that his customers were Christians. I said that was very admirable but that I was not a Christian and that my Japanese neighbor who he was also talking to was a Buddhist. He acted very embarassed at this point and quickly replied that it was OK that we were not Christians.

When someone feels compelled to tell me that they are a Christian or that they have a Christian business, all my cautionary senses go on full alert.

Please, please, please don't tell me you are a Christian. Actions speak louder than words. A business that pushes the Christian Connection can screw you just as fast as anyone else. Don't infer that you are a good person, act it. Don't infer that your business is honest, demonstrate it.

[Clint]

Yer gonna love this Lon. I agree with you 100%. When someone opens with “I’m a Christian”, I run for cover.

[abbey]

I could never understand why on earth someone would introduce themselves as being Christian.

I would'nt dream of introducing myself as an Aethiest.

[Lon]

Before I retired and was in business I was approached many times to join the "Christian Businessmens Association". There was always the inference that it would be good for business. That bothered me then and it bothers me now. I wonder what their non Christian clients and customers felt about this exclusionary Association?

[actionfigurestepho]

I hate gimmicks like that. It seems like they're saying that just because another business isn't Christian it isn't honest.

[weeder]

It is a pleasure lon, to discover someone whose outlook is identical to mine. I particulary shudder when I hear names of businesses like... Men of God Painting and Repair... The Lords Way Lawncare.... Trust in Us (as we do him) cleaning service.... A couple of months ago I went to see anaccountant for an estimate to do bookeeping for my business. In his waiting room was literature for the church he attended.. RED FLAG # 1 During our consultation he made sure to tell me how finding the lord however many years ago.. had insured that his CPA firm would be a success. When I left, and decided not to use this guy... he actually stalked me. Sending me faxes, and criticizing me for not choosing him. I could share many, many, stories of this same nature. Imagine if we all went around declaring.. "Hi Im Bob, I truly respect women.". Hi, Im Jane, blacks dont "bother me at all" Blah,

Blah, Blah.... Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.

[gmc]

posted by lon

Before I retired and was in business I was approached many times to join the "Christian Businessmens Association". There was always the inference that it would be good for business. That bothered me then and it bothers me now. I wonder what their non Christian clients and customers felt about this exclusionary Association?


They are here as well, the full gospel businessmen's lunch one of the more surreal lunches I have ever had. It was almost like a religious mafia.

Asking someone's religon is not a question that comes up in conversation. I happen to live in an area where sectarianism lies just below the surface, the next question would always be what kind of christian. Most normal just don't want to know your religon and care even less. People say catholic or protestant not christian. Add in Plymouth brethern, mormons, jehovahs witnesses, and charismatics. A secular life is the only sane one. Leave god out of it he gets a bad enough press as it is

[Clint]

If people want to create a business network centered on religion or their choice of bubble gum…it doesn’t matter. They have that right.

[Lon]

Clint wrote: If people want to create a business network centered on religion or their choice of bubble gum…it doesn’t matter. They have that right.


It's not their right to create such a network that's in question, but their motive.

[Clint]

Lon wrote: It's not their right to create such a network that's in question, but their motive.
Oops. I misunderstood your statement again so this is an edit.

If their motive is to strengthen each other in business and connect with business people who have similar interests...why shouldn't those motives be okay?

[Accountable]

Lon wrote: It's not



their right to create such a network that's in question,



but their motive.


I think this is the context.

[OpenMind]

It's a bit like what happened to the Jews in Babylon. Now they've got one hell of a reputation. So now some of the Christians (?) are following in their footsteps, eh?

[Clint]

OpenMind wrote: It's a bit like what happened to the Jews in Babylon. Now they've got one hell of a reputation. So now some of the Christians (?) are following in their footsteps, eh?
Could you be a little more specific? I'm not sure I understand your point.

[OpenMind]

It was in Babylon that the Jews became involved in banking. They started by lending money. Their records were exemplary.

Apparently, there is more than one group of Christians that place money high on their agenda. From this, I draw a simile.

[Clint]

OpenMind wrote: It was in Babylon that the Jews became involved in banking. They started by lending money. Their records were exemplary.

Apparently, there is more than one group of Christians that place money high on their agenda. From this, I draw a simile.
So, your point is that what the Jews did was a bad thing and that Christians are doing the same thing?

You imply, if I understand you, that if Atheists network to improve their position in the market place it would be okay.

[Lon]

Clint wrote: Oops. I misunderstood your statement again so this is an edit.

If their motive is to strengthen each other in business and connect with business people who have similar interests...why shouldn't those motives be okay?


No problem, but that is not always the motive Clint.

[Clint]

Lon wrote: No problem, but that is not always the motive Clint.
What evil motive do they sometimes have?

[Lon]

Clint wrote: What evil motive do they sometimes have?


Clint please stop second guessing and inserting words (evil) that are not mine. Your are showing a very defensive posture. Hardly Christian ole boy.

[Clint]

Lon wrote: Clint please stop second guessing and inserting words (evil) that are not mine. Your are showing a very defensive posture. Hardly Christian ole boy.
I don't think I was second guessing. If I read what you said correctly there is something that these organizations do that is not good. The opposite of "good" is "evil". I'm not a member of one of those organizations. All I want to see is an open discussion. It appeared to me that innuendo was being used rather than facts. I stand ready to be proven wrong.

[OpenMind]

I believe the Jews went into banking to survive. I have no doubt that the Christians who are developing this idea of Christian business have good motives. We won't know whether it will be good for the creed until time has passed. The Jews started well enough, but we know what happened to them. The Bible is fairly clear about material gain, so it's down to what the motive of the Christians is.

[Clint]

OpenMind wrote: I believe the Jews went into banking to survive. I have no doubt that the Christians who are developing this idea of Christian business have good motives. We won't know whether it will be good for the creed until time has passed. The Jews started well enough, but we know what happened to them. The Bible is fairly clear about material gain, so it's down to what the motive of the Christians is.
What happened to the Jews?

[OpenMind]

Now that is an interesting question. As far as I understand, both the people of Israel and Judaea died out. Yet, Jews have existed throughout history. I do not know how the lineage works out. Nonetheless, what I meant by my statement is that they were scattered across the world without a country of their own.

[Clint]

OpenMind wrote: Now that is an interesting question. As far as I understand, both the people of Israel and Judaea died out. Yet, Jews have existed throughout history. I do not know how the lineage works out. Nonetheless, what I meant by my statement is that they were scattered across the world without a country of their own.
Are you saying that happened as a result of their success in business?

[OpenMind]

Rather I believe that without business skills, they may well have died out.

[Clint]

OpenMind wrote: I believe the Jews went into banking to survive. I have no doubt that the Christians who are developing this idea of Christian business have good motives. We won't know whether it will be good for the creed until time has passed. The Jews started well enough, but we know what happened to them. The Bible is fairly clear about material gain, so it's down to what the motive of the Christians is.
This paragraph seemed to say that the Jews started out on the right track but didn't end up on the right track and that Christians may also be going down the wrong track. I must have read it wrong.

It's my understanding that material gain is just fine as long as it doesn't control us or become the object of our worship.

[OpenMind]

Clint wrote: This paragraph seemed to say that the Jews started out on the right track but didn't end up on the right track and that Christians may also be going down the wrong track. I must have read it wrong.



It's my understanding that material gain is just fine as long as it doesn't control us or become the object of our worship.
That the Christians are going down the same track appears to be so. For the Jews, it was the wrong track to take insofar as they no longer have a land of their own. However, God's people were the ones who are the most persecuted. So far as I can see, this dubious glory falls to the Jews. It may have been God's way of protecting the line despite their iniquity. As for the Christians, we will have to wait and see. However, there appears to be more fragmentation of the Christian church than there is of the Jewish faith.

[Clint]

OpenMind wrote: That the Christians are going down the same track appears to be so. For the Jews, it was the wrong track to take insofar as they no longer have a land of their own. However, God's people were the ones who are the most persecuted. So far as I can see, this dubious glory falls to the Jews. It may have been God's way of protecting the line despite their iniquity. As for the Christians, we will have to wait and see. However, there appears to be more fragmentation of the Christian church than there is of the Jewish faith.
The Diaspora isn’t the result of business practices. It is the result of the corruption of Judaism by its leaders and their unwillingness to repent. The priesthood abused its trust in executing spiritual leadership.

[OpenMind]

I agree with You Clint. In fact, if the Jews had exercised faith in God, they would not have needed to go into banking at all. Such as it is, however, it has kept the Jews going up until now. Although, as I said earlier, I'm not sure how the lineage works out.

[Clint]

Far Rider wrote: I am a believer, I run my business with the idea that its my name out there on display, if I do something illegal or unethical then my reputation is less than honerable, me.

If I advertise that I'm a christian business man, (which I dont) and do something illegal or unethical, then it is Gods name that is dishonored. Much as some of you have described.

I don't even put any littel fish stickers anywhere... I'd rather as Lon suggested in his opening statement.... let my actions speak for my reputation. If someone were to ask me "hey you run your business pretty honestly, are you a christian?" well then I can then talk to him from the point of view as having earned a good reputation.

That's how it should work.

Like my Dad says, honor your word, both your yes's and your no's.
Yes, yes…I had one of those fishy things on the back of my van once many years ago. I accidentally cut someone off in traffic. I realized with horror that that fish had been right in their face when I did it. I took it off and I’ve never put one back on again.

[OpenMind]

Far Rider wrote: I am a believer, I run my business with the idea that its my name out there on display, if I do something illegal or unethical then my reputation is less than honerable, me.



If I advertise that I'm a christian business man, (which I dont) and do something illegal or unethical, then it is Gods name that is dishonored. Much as some of you have described.



I don't even put any littel fish stickers anywhere... I'd rather as Lon suggested in his opening statement.... let my actions speak for my reputation. If someone were to ask me "hey you run your business pretty honestly, are you a christian?" well then I can then talk to him from the point of view as having earned a good reputation.



That's how it should work.



Like my Dad says, honor your word, both your yes's and your no's.


And yet, I see a conflict of interest there. Is it not a Christian's duty to promote God and Jesus in all that he or she does? Am I wrong in believing this?

[Lon]

Clint wrote: I don't think I was second guessing. If I read what you said correctly there is something that these organizations do that is not good. The opposite of "good" is "evil". I'm not a member of one of those organizations. All I want to see is an open discussion. It appeared to me that innuendo was being used rather than facts. I stand ready to be proven wrong.


No no no Clint. I did not say or even imply that these organizations did not do good. Good and evil are words that you used, not me. I am all for an open discussion but you keep reading things into my posts that just aren't there.

You are right however, the opposite of good is evil or bad, none of these words were used in my posts, just yours.

At any rate, I was approached by members of the CBA on a number of occasions because they thought that because I was a member of a particular fraternal group that I was also a Christian. They went on to say how my business would benefit by my being a member. Their self righteous and santimonious approach pissed me off. I knew several of their members to be openly anti semitic and racist to boot. I know that is not the purpose of the organization but there are clods that will band together in religion based organizations like flies on horsepucky. That seems to be the case, more so than in non religious based organizations.

[Clint]

Lon wrote: No no no Clint. I did not say or even imply that these organizations did not do good. Good and evil are words that you used, not me. I am all for an open discussion but you keep reading things into my posts that just aren't there.

You are right however, the opposite of good is evil or bad, none of these words were used in my posts, just yours.

At any rate, I was approached by members of the CBA on a number of occasions because they thought that because I was a member of a particular fraternal group that I was also a Christian. They went on to say how my business would benefit by my being a member. Their self righteous and santimonious approach pissed me off. I knew several of their members to be openly anti semitic and racist to boot. I know that is not the purpose of the organization but there are clods that will band together in religion based organizations like flies on horsepucky. That seems to be the case, more so than in non religious based organizations.
I stand corrected. I'm going to read your posts more carefully in the future. It does seem I have taken them wrong several times.

I was approached by a guy who said I should join his church because I would be able to make good connections there. Needless to say, I didn't.

There is one thing I can say that is somewhat mitigating. Many Christians are people who have made a mess of their lives and are in a rebuilding mode. Some of them haven't reached a point, as they grow in faith, that they know they are being offensive. Others will be self righteous and santimonious until they die. The thing that really bothers me about all this that is that so many people never see God because they can't see past the people who they believe represent Him.

[Lon]

The thing that really bothers me about all this that is that so many people never see God because they can't see past the people who they believe represent Him.


But they are his children, are they not?

[Clint]

Lon wrote: The thing that really bothers me about all this that is that so many people never see God because they can't see past the people who they believe represent Him.


But they are his children, are they not?
Sadly, I must say that when I was a child I did things that dishonored my father. I hope people were able to understand that I did those things because I was a child and not because my father approved.

[telaquapacky]

Lon, Clint, Others: tell me what you think of this- In my offices I play a soft contemporary Christian music station. All my patients hear it. When someone comes in covered with tattoos and with outrageous piercings, I smile and relate to them warmly and comfortably and treat them as if they were my special friend- and I don't' say a thing about religion ('course, Christian music is playing in the background). Girls come in dressed like hoochie mamas, and I treat them like a chummy, older brother- again I don't say anything about religion and not a hint of judgment or disapproval. In the waiting room there are copies of "Steps to Christ," that say "take one" on the cover. But I never engage in conversation about spiritual things unless the patient brings it up first (which they sometimes do), and we talk about it only as long as they feel like it. About the Christian radio, I have heard only compliments- not one complaint. What do you think?

[Clint]

telaquapacky wrote: Lon, Clint, Others: tell me what you think of this- In my offices I play a soft contemporary Christian music station. All my patients hear it. When someone comes in covered with tattoos and with outrageous piercings, I smile and relate to them warmly and comfortably and treat them as if they were my special friend- and I don't' say a thing about religion ('course, Christian music is playing in the background). Girls come in dressed like hoochie mamas, and I treat them like a chummy, older brother- again I don't say anything about religion and not a hint of judgment or disapproval. In the waiting room there are copies of "Steps to Christ," that say "take one" on the cover. But I never engage in conversation about spiritual things unless the patient brings it up first (which they sometimes do), and we talk about it only as long as they feel like it. About the Christian radio, I have heard only compliments- not one complaint. What do you think?
That sounds very appropriate to me. If I wasn’t a Christian coming into that environment I don’t think I would be getting a message that I should expect something other than a professional exam by someone who likes Christian music (assuming I recognized it). If It’s me, I’m going to think I’m where I can relate with the people there.

[Skeeter]

weeder wrote: It is a pleasure lon, to discover someone whose outlook is identical to mine. I particulary shudder when I hear names of businesses like... Men of God Painting and Repair... The Lords Way Lawncare.... Trust in Us (as we do him) cleaning service.... A couple of months ago I went to see anaccountant for an estimate to do bookeeping for my business. In his waiting room was literature for the church he attended.. RED FLAG # 1 During our consultation he made sure to tell me how finding the lord however many years ago.. had insured that his CPA firm would be a success. When I left, and decided not to use this guy... he actually stalked me. Sending me faxes, and criticizing me for not choosing him. I could share many, many, stories of this same nature. Imagine if we all went around declaring.. "Hi Im Bob, I truly respect women.". Hi, Im Jane, blacks dont "bother me at all" Blah,

Blah, Blah.... Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.


Used to own a motel and when people coming in the door and finding an opening said 'Praise the Lord"....... usually they didn't....and we were cautioned to get payment up front and be cautious....don't know why, usually those people had said that so many times it was just involuntary and meant nothing to them.

[Lon]

telaquapacky wrote: Lon, Clint, Others: tell me what you think of this- In my offices I play a soft contemporary Christian music station. All my patients hear it. When someone comes in covered with tattoos and with outrageous piercings, I smile and relate to them warmly and comfortably and treat them as if they were my special friend- and I don't' say a thing about religion ('course, Christian music is playing in the background). Girls come in dressed like hoochie mamas, and I treat them like a chummy, older brother- again I don't say anything about religion and not a hint of judgment or disapproval. In the waiting room there are copies of "Steps to Christ," that say "take one" on the cover. But I never engage in conversation about spiritual things unless the patient brings it up first (which they sometimes do), and we talk about it only as long as they feel like it. About the Christian radio, I have heard only compliments- not one complaint. What do you think?


No problem as far as I am concerned. You have every right to play whatever music you like in your office, and your patients are free to choose to do business with you or not. Personally, I do not enjoy Christian music but would not let it deter me from being your patient if I liked your services.

[gmc]

Interesting cultural difference here I think. In the UK religon is just not brought up in normal conversation it's a massive no no, and about the last question anyone would ask, especially at a business network type meeting, evangelising is a good way to find everybody avoiding you and being invited not to join if the hint is ignored. If people want religon they can go to church

[OpenMind]

Far Rider wrote: Open....



Conflict of interest? Not sure I follow you.



But let me say this... God made me different from anyone else. My gift, is not evengelization, my gift is teaching... you can only teach a willing student... a willing student voluntarily sits under the authority of the teacher.



I was not made to go out publicly and compell them in.. I was made for one on one instruction. I suppose there is a time for compelling, and I know I have done it, but that time is not in the middle of a buisness transaction.



A time to reap and a time to sow comes to mind.


That's an interesting answer regarding individuality. Even in the New Testament, the disciples and Christians did their bit in their own way.

But, Jesus taught the masses that we do not need to worry for food and clothing and our other needs as they are all provided for us by God. In this sense, doing business is in conflict with Jesus's teachings and shows a lack of faith in God's ability to provide. Business requires more than just taking care of each day as it comes and that is what Jesus taught us to do.

[Accountable]

OpenMind wrote: That's an interesting answer regarding individuality. Even in the New Testament, the disciples and Christians did their bit in their own way.

But, Jesus taught the masses that we do not need to worry for food and clothing and our other needs as they are all provided for us by God. In this sense, doing business is in conflict with Jesus's teachings and shows a lack of faith in God's ability to provide. Business requires more than just taking care of each day as it comes and that is what Jesus taught us to do.
All business is against Jesus' teachings and disrespects God?!?

I must've read this wrong.

[capt_buzzard]

gmc wrote: posted by lon





They are here as well, the full gospel businessmen's lunch one of the more surreal lunches I have ever had. It was almost like a religious mafia.



Asking someone's religon is not a question that comes up in conversation. I happen to live in an area where sectarianism lies just below the surface, the next question would always be what kind of christian. Most normal just don't want to know your religon and care even less. People say catholic or protestant not christian. Add in Plymouth brethern, mormons, jehovahs witnesses, and charismatics. A secular life is the only sane one. Leave god out of it he gets a bad enough press as it isAnd in Dublin Ireland, the Roman Catholic Church Cardinal lives in a ⚬7m apartment.

[Skeeter]

I sign my mail, etc....with three little fish < if anyone asks me what they are there for I just tell them they are three little fillited fishes....if that does not satisfy I let them know that it is just satisfying to me...but I do not have any on the car.

[weeder]

Being "IN BUSINESS"is an opportunity to go out and represent all of the principles you believe in. Without hanging up a billboard, printing it on a card,or announcing it on a sign. If you are determined, offer expert products or services, are respectful, reliable, knowledgeable, and trustworthy, people quickly become aware of who you are, and what you stand for.

[OpenMind]

Far Rider wrote: Open... I don't get what your saying here...



I'm not Elisha, the ravens dont feed me babe, I have to work for a living. If ya don't work ya dont eat. God does provide my food and clothing, he does it by allowing a job for money and in our modern day economy thats what buys food and clothing.



My particular business is industrial steam cleaning... When I go into negotiate a contract for my services, the owner of the business doesnt care wether I'm a christian or not, all he cares about is if I will provide the service under a written contract.



I agree with you that all believers are commanded to preach the gospel, but I'm also commanded to care for my family, both physically and spiritually, as well as many other commands to follow so I must divide my time in balance to be able to accomplish all things I'm required to do.



If I'm missing your point please tell me. I'm often off the mark.:-2


This is only my understanding of things Christian. I am always open (minded) to any suggestions, corrections, etc.

I believe that a Christian who is doing God's work is paid by God. That is to say that God takes care of that person's needs along with his family's. In Jesus's address, he tells his audience that God even provides for the birds and animals, amd more so for us. So we don't even have to be Christians. Therefore, it is not necessary to make a living through business.

This is not to say that a person cannot go about conducting an activity on a regular basis in a professional manner. It just means that there should be no need to make a living by this.

I have often come across the notion that those who want to pay should leave a donation.

Let me ask you a question FR. If God did not want you to carry on with your business, how would you know this? What would be God's way of communicating his commands to you? (OK, that's two questions.)

[OpenMind]

Far Rider wrote: hahaha... ok for the sake of argument and good conversation... hopefully both (smiling warmly) If I sit back and fat cat it, work no more, should I expect God to simply provide for all my needs? (food and clothing).



If God did not want me to do my business then no matter how hard I tried Id not be successful at it, but I am, actually now wildly successsful... getting back to Elisha... God dried up the creek, and the Raven flew off.



Honestly, though, knowing myself as well as I do, I'd dig in the stream bed for a while, since Im so dang hard headed.



I'm sorry to say God often has to tell me several times to quit something and several times to start something.


And I do like a good civilized argument.

To the first part, then the answer is yes. That's the deal.

For the second part, that's a good answer. I can't argue with that without being just plain argumentative.

Anyway, I dread the idea of meeting a perfect person. I would have to run for cover and hide my shameful imperfections.

:D