On a recent visit to my parents I found a book called, "120 Days of Sodom," by the infamous Marquis de Sade. It's not my parents, it is apparently a book belonging to my brother from long, long ago, hidden under the basement steps sometime in the 80's I suppose. I'd only heard of de Sade, and that etymologically "sadism" is derived from his name. Anyway, I decided to take a peek and see what all the fuss is about. It didn't take long before I discovered the reason for the controversy. This has to be one of the most disgusting, sadomasochistic works of literature ever imagined. He wrote others like it: Justine and Juliette, and Philosophy in the Bedroom, to name just two.
I have a question. Do you think it's a sin or morally depraved to read such a work? or is labelling such a work "literature" make reading it acceptable?
Or maybe you've read some of Sade's stuff and you'd like to offer a commentary?
The Marquis de Sade
-
Infinite Stop
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:57 am
The Marquis de Sade
If I remember correctly, everything he advocated involved informed consent. If it's not consensual then it's not Sadism, it's torture. If it's torture then it's sinful and depraved. If it's Sadism it's merely depraved. Do we have something against depravity all of a sudden?
Sadism isn't something you read, it's something you do. It's a succession of acts not a frame of mind, and you can always opt out if you'd rather. What happened at Abu Ghraib wasn't Sadism because it wasn't by consent, it was torture and consequently illegal. Sadism isn't illegal, not where I live anyway, though the courts do like to clip around the extremes when they get a chance.
Sadism isn't something you read, it's something you do. It's a succession of acts not a frame of mind, and you can always opt out if you'd rather. What happened at Abu Ghraib wasn't Sadism because it wasn't by consent, it was torture and consequently illegal. Sadism isn't illegal, not where I live anyway, though the courts do like to clip around the extremes when they get a chance.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Infinite Stop
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:57 am
The Marquis de Sade
spot;1390343 wrote: If I remember correctly, everything he advocated involved informed consent. If it's not consensual then it's not Sadism, it's torture. If it's torture then it's sinful and depraved. If it's Sadism it's merely depraved. Do we have something against depravity all of a sudden?
Sadism isn't something you read, it's something you do. It's a succession of acts not a frame of mind, and you can always opt out if you'd rather. What happened at Abu Ghraib wasn't Sadism because it wasn't by consent, it was torture and consequently illegal. Sadism isn't illegal, not where I live anyway, though the courts do like to clip around the extremes when they get a chance.
If by "informed consent" you mean that all participants were of their own free will partaking of the "revery," then I believe you are mistaken. In "120 Days..." children are kidnapped, sodomised, tortured, then killed. Now I've only read the first 80 pages, and skimmed the rest, so I'm not an expert with this; still I'm sure that it wasn't informed consent, at least in that work. And Justine, in Justine, is the victim many times over of rape and other crimes, so neither is she a willing participant. I'm not trying to make a debate of this; I just wanted to stay on track, that's all.
In this case then, according to you, reading "120 days..." and "Justine" is sinful and depraved, since it involves torture. Unless you were only referring to the acts as performed and not read; I'm not sure what you meant. Remember I wanted to know if it was a sin or depraved to merely read such material.
But sadism, since it is consensual, is not a sin; so from that I guess you would agree that reading such stuff is not a sin also.
Okay, thanks for your opinion. By the way, do you wanna come over? LOL
Sadism isn't something you read, it's something you do. It's a succession of acts not a frame of mind, and you can always opt out if you'd rather. What happened at Abu Ghraib wasn't Sadism because it wasn't by consent, it was torture and consequently illegal. Sadism isn't illegal, not where I live anyway, though the courts do like to clip around the extremes when they get a chance.
If by "informed consent" you mean that all participants were of their own free will partaking of the "revery," then I believe you are mistaken. In "120 Days..." children are kidnapped, sodomised, tortured, then killed. Now I've only read the first 80 pages, and skimmed the rest, so I'm not an expert with this; still I'm sure that it wasn't informed consent, at least in that work. And Justine, in Justine, is the victim many times over of rape and other crimes, so neither is she a willing participant. I'm not trying to make a debate of this; I just wanted to stay on track, that's all.
In this case then, according to you, reading "120 days..." and "Justine" is sinful and depraved, since it involves torture. Unless you were only referring to the acts as performed and not read; I'm not sure what you meant. Remember I wanted to know if it was a sin or depraved to merely read such material.
But sadism, since it is consensual, is not a sin; so from that I guess you would agree that reading such stuff is not a sin also.
Okay, thanks for your opinion. By the way, do you wanna come over? LOL
The Marquis de Sade
The guy was a pretty twisted sister.
What is called Sadism, these days, tends to be fairly mild compared to the good Marquis' antics.
I have known some folks that took this stuff pretty far, but they were consensual adults, so I make no judgments.
I hardly think it depraved or sinful to read such stuff. (well, of course not. I read it.) I certainly prefer something a little more tame, myself, but I do still have most of his works in my library.
They are in a section which is not accessible to the grandkids, BTW
What is called Sadism, these days, tends to be fairly mild compared to the good Marquis' antics.
I have known some folks that took this stuff pretty far, but they were consensual adults, so I make no judgments.
I hardly think it depraved or sinful to read such stuff. (well, of course not. I read it.) I certainly prefer something a little more tame, myself, but I do still have most of his works in my library.
They are in a section which is not accessible to the grandkids, BTW
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
The Marquis de Sade
Infinite Stop;1390347 wrote: In this case then, according to you, reading "120 days..." and "Justine" is sinful and depraved, since it involves torture. Unless you were only referring to the acts as performed and not read; I'm not sure what you meant. Remember I wanted to know if it was a sin or depraved to merely read such material.
That, I think, is a fair description of what I was aiming to convey. De Sade did things and it was those actions I was talking about. His fiction isn't constrained by informed consent, because it fantasizes - much as J K Rowling or C S Lewis fantasize.
Just as writing isn't doing, reading isn't doing either.
That, I think, is a fair description of what I was aiming to convey. De Sade did things and it was those actions I was talking about. His fiction isn't constrained by informed consent, because it fantasizes - much as J K Rowling or C S Lewis fantasize.
Just as writing isn't doing, reading isn't doing either.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Infinite Stop
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:57 am
The Marquis de Sade
LarsMac;1390351 wrote: The guy was a pretty twisted sister.
What is called Sadism, these days, tends to be fairly mild compared to the good Marquis' antics.
I have known some folks that took this stuff pretty far, but they were consensual adults, so I make no judgments.
I hardly think it depraved or sinful to read such stuff. (well, of course not. I read it.) I certainly prefer something a little more tame, myself, but I do still have most of his works in my library.
They are in a section which is not accessible to the grandkids, BTW
So let me ask you, and there's no judgment intended at all, just curious: Do you find it enjoyable to read, say, "120 days," or "Justine"? with all the child rape and torture? Or are you just the curious type, that sees it strictly as an intellectual exercise? sort of a way of broadening your literary horizon, so to speak?
Maybe I'm putting you on the spot with a question like that. You don't have to tell if you don't want to. But if you do, maybe you want to provide the most lurid description possible...I mean, for the others in here that may find that..um, enlightening and educational.
In order to know virtue, we must first acquaint ourselves with vice. ~Marquis de Sade
What is called Sadism, these days, tends to be fairly mild compared to the good Marquis' antics.
I have known some folks that took this stuff pretty far, but they were consensual adults, so I make no judgments.
I hardly think it depraved or sinful to read such stuff. (well, of course not. I read it.) I certainly prefer something a little more tame, myself, but I do still have most of his works in my library.
They are in a section which is not accessible to the grandkids, BTW
So let me ask you, and there's no judgment intended at all, just curious: Do you find it enjoyable to read, say, "120 days," or "Justine"? with all the child rape and torture? Or are you just the curious type, that sees it strictly as an intellectual exercise? sort of a way of broadening your literary horizon, so to speak?
Maybe I'm putting you on the spot with a question like that. You don't have to tell if you don't want to. But if you do, maybe you want to provide the most lurid description possible...I mean, for the others in here that may find that..um, enlightening and educational.
In order to know virtue, we must first acquaint ourselves with vice. ~Marquis de Sade
-
Infinite Stop
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:57 am
The Marquis de Sade
spot;1390353 wrote: That, I think, is a fair description of what I was aiming to convey. De Sade did things and it was those actions I was talking about. His fiction isn't constrained by informed consent, because it fantasizes - much as J K Rowling or C S Lewis fantasize.
Just as writing isn't doing, reading isn't doing either.
Do you think that reading de Sade could--for some--excite them to commit sexual crimes, like rape or bestiality? If yes, then would that fact change your opinion about reading Sade? In that case, should Sade be outlawed? or do you place a higher value in freedom of expression?
Just as writing isn't doing, reading isn't doing either.
Do you think that reading de Sade could--for some--excite them to commit sexual crimes, like rape or bestiality? If yes, then would that fact change your opinion about reading Sade? In that case, should Sade be outlawed? or do you place a higher value in freedom of expression?
The Marquis de Sade
Infinite Stop;1390361 wrote: Do you think that reading de Sade could--for some--excite them to commit sexual crimes, like rape or bestiality? If yes, then would that fact change your opinion about reading Sade? In that case, should Sade be outlawed? or do you place a higher value in freedom of expression?
I've never heard of such an instance. I do have friends who would have committed sexual crimes, like rape or bestiality, were it not for their escape though de Sade's literature and the dungeon experiences they engaged in as a direct result of reading his life history and his works of fiction. Even if some few instances exist which have been triggered into the behaviour you suggest, I'm certain there are more instances of the sort I describe to counterbalance them. The overall effect is beneficial to society.
I've never heard of such an instance. I do have friends who would have committed sexual crimes, like rape or bestiality, were it not for their escape though de Sade's literature and the dungeon experiences they engaged in as a direct result of reading his life history and his works of fiction. Even if some few instances exist which have been triggered into the behaviour you suggest, I'm certain there are more instances of the sort I describe to counterbalance them. The overall effect is beneficial to society.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Infinite Stop
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:57 am
The Marquis de Sade
spot;1390363 wrote: I've never heard of such an instance. I do have friends who would have committed sexual crimes, like rape or bestiality, were it not for their escape though de Sade's literature and the dungeon experiences they engaged in as a direct result of reading his life history and his works of fiction. Even if some few instances exist which have been triggered into the behaviour you suggest, I'm certain there are more instances of the sort I describe to counterbalance them. The overall effect is beneficial to society.
Interesting perspective. So it ends up being kind of a mental masturbation, reading de Sade, releasing the pent-up sexual energy that might otherwise lead to crimes of the flesh. By delving into that sadomasochistic fantasy world in private and alone, one musters the restraint that disallows committing such crimes in actuality. Hmmmmm...
How about the affect it simply has on the person that reads such something like "120 Days..." I mean, do you think it degrades the self? Don't I bring myself "down" by enjoying all that depraved fantasy? Or do you think that it could be considered "healthy" to explicate ones fantasies through rape, sodomy, and torture? and in the case of "120 Days..." , this all happens to children, which seems to make it that much worse. Can I enjoy such thoughts and still believe myself to be a man of decency and integrity?
Interesting perspective. So it ends up being kind of a mental masturbation, reading de Sade, releasing the pent-up sexual energy that might otherwise lead to crimes of the flesh. By delving into that sadomasochistic fantasy world in private and alone, one musters the restraint that disallows committing such crimes in actuality. Hmmmmm...
How about the affect it simply has on the person that reads such something like "120 Days..." I mean, do you think it degrades the self? Don't I bring myself "down" by enjoying all that depraved fantasy? Or do you think that it could be considered "healthy" to explicate ones fantasies through rape, sodomy, and torture? and in the case of "120 Days..." , this all happens to children, which seems to make it that much worse. Can I enjoy such thoughts and still believe myself to be a man of decency and integrity?
The Marquis de Sade
I'd have thought it self-evident that the only person who can speak with authority on the effect of such an inner exploration is one who's undertaken it. I'd not presume to answer on behalf of such a person. I think you should call for volunteers at this point.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The Marquis de Sade
spot;1390377 wrote: I'd have thought it self-evident that the only person who can speak with authority on the effect of such an inner exploration is one who's undertaken it. I'd not presume to answer on behalf of such a person. I think you should call for volunteers at this point.All I know is I refuse to go anywhere near LarsMac.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
-
Infinite Stop
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:57 am
The Marquis de Sade
spot;1390377 wrote: I'd have thought it self-evident that the only person who can speak with authority on the effect of such an inner exploration is one who's undertaken it. I'd not presume to answer on behalf of such a person. I think you should call for volunteers at this point.
LOL. Good answer. I wonder if we will see such a person in here step forward and do us the service.
However, I'll add, I don't think it necessary to have had such an "inner exploration" before one can offer an insightful opinion. One need not commit a rape to understand the motives for committing such a crime. If one has a good understanding of human nature or the criminal mind, one might indeed be able to offer plausible psychological affects of reading de Sade's most depraved works--psychiatrists or sex counselors for example.
It is not my mode of thought that has caused my misfortunes, but the mode of thought of others. ~Marquis de Sade
LOL. Good answer. I wonder if we will see such a person in here step forward and do us the service.
However, I'll add, I don't think it necessary to have had such an "inner exploration" before one can offer an insightful opinion. One need not commit a rape to understand the motives for committing such a crime. If one has a good understanding of human nature or the criminal mind, one might indeed be able to offer plausible psychological affects of reading de Sade's most depraved works--psychiatrists or sex counselors for example.
It is not my mode of thought that has caused my misfortunes, but the mode of thought of others. ~Marquis de Sade
The Marquis de Sade
Where's Nomad when you need him.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
The Marquis de Sade
Infinite Stop;1390356 wrote: So let me ask you, and there's no judgment intended at all, just curious: Do you find it enjoyable to read, say, "120 days," or "Justine"? with all the child rape and torture? Or are you just the curious type, that sees it strictly as an intellectual exercise? sort of a way of broadening your literary horizon, so to speak?
I was fairly young at the time, and quite curious. I found it very disturbing, but terribly fascinating.
At the time, I was also hanging out with a libertine crowd. It was frightening what people enjoy doing to others, and maybe even more so what some people will enjoy being done to them.
I soon chose to find a more mundane lifestyle.
Infinite Stop;1390356 wrote:
Maybe I'm putting you on the spot with a question like that. You don't have to tell if you don't want to. But if you do, maybe you want to provide the most lurid description possible...I mean, for the others in here that may find that..um, enlightening and educational.
I will leave the details to others. :oInfinite Stop;1390356 wrote:
In order to know virtue, we must first acquaint ourselves with vice. ~Marquis de Sade
Indeed.
I was fairly young at the time, and quite curious. I found it very disturbing, but terribly fascinating.
At the time, I was also hanging out with a libertine crowd. It was frightening what people enjoy doing to others, and maybe even more so what some people will enjoy being done to them.
I soon chose to find a more mundane lifestyle.
Infinite Stop;1390356 wrote:
Maybe I'm putting you on the spot with a question like that. You don't have to tell if you don't want to. But if you do, maybe you want to provide the most lurid description possible...I mean, for the others in here that may find that..um, enlightening and educational.
I will leave the details to others. :oInfinite Stop;1390356 wrote:
In order to know virtue, we must first acquaint ourselves with vice. ~Marquis de Sade
Indeed.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
-
Infinite Stop
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:57 am
The Marquis de Sade
LarsMac;1390394 wrote: I was fairly young at the time, and quite curious. I found it very disturbing, but terribly fascinating.
At the time, I was also hanging out with a libertine crowd. It was frightening what people enjoy doing to others, and maybe even more so what some people will enjoy being done to them.
I soon chose to find a more mundane lifestyle.
I will leave the details to others.
Indeed.
I can understand the curiosity part. That's what compelled me to check it out myself. I don't know if I'll finish it, not for any moral reasons necessarily, but because it's not really a genre I enjoy, whatever genre that is! LOL
I'd say that it's more than just pornography, these works of de Sade. The story line is far to complex, intricate and well-written to be classed porno. It seems more to be an exploration into the dark side of human nature; a side that exists in most of us, but is rarely admitted or discussed. His writings were also a way for de Sade to vent his hatred for the class he longed to be a part of, but couldn't. Most of the debauched protagonists in "120 days..." and "Justine" were rich, aristocratic, or clergy. He himself was a blue blood, but he defamed the name and his wealth was lost. So he detested what he wanted to be, but couldn't. And the fact that he spent decades in prison or asylums didn't help either; it's hard to network from behind bars--LOL. I'm just theorizing; I don't really know.
At the time, I was also hanging out with a libertine crowd. It was frightening what people enjoy doing to others, and maybe even more so what some people will enjoy being done to them.
I soon chose to find a more mundane lifestyle.
I will leave the details to others.
Indeed.
I can understand the curiosity part. That's what compelled me to check it out myself. I don't know if I'll finish it, not for any moral reasons necessarily, but because it's not really a genre I enjoy, whatever genre that is! LOL
I'd say that it's more than just pornography, these works of de Sade. The story line is far to complex, intricate and well-written to be classed porno. It seems more to be an exploration into the dark side of human nature; a side that exists in most of us, but is rarely admitted or discussed. His writings were also a way for de Sade to vent his hatred for the class he longed to be a part of, but couldn't. Most of the debauched protagonists in "120 days..." and "Justine" were rich, aristocratic, or clergy. He himself was a blue blood, but he defamed the name and his wealth was lost. So he detested what he wanted to be, but couldn't. And the fact that he spent decades in prison or asylums didn't help either; it's hard to network from behind bars--LOL. I'm just theorizing; I don't really know.
The Marquis de Sade
Infinite Stop;1390405 wrote: I can understand the curiosity part. That's what compelled me to check it out myself. I don't know if I'll finish it, not for any moral reasons necessarily, but because it's not really a genre I enjoy, whatever genre that is! LOL
I'd say that it's more than just pornography, these works of de Sade. The story line is far to complex, intricate and well-written to be classed porno. It seems more to be an exploration into the dark side of human nature; a side that exists in most of us, but is rarely admitted or discussed. His writings were also a way for de Sade to vent his hatred for the class he longed to be a part of, but couldn't. Most of the debauched protagonists in "120 days..." and "Justine" were rich, aristocratic, or clergy. He himself was a blue blood, but he defamed the name and his wealth was lost. So he detested what he wanted to be, but couldn't. And the fact that he spent decades in prison or asylums didn't help either; it's hard to network from behind bars--LOL. I'm just theorizing; I don't really know.
Understanding where the guy came from is probably important. I would probably never recommend his work to anyone.
I think that what you put into your head can have a profound affect on you, in what you do, how you see others, and how you relate to them.
I try to filter what goes into my poor little brain these days.
As they say in the computer world, GI,GO Garbage In, Garbage Out.
I'd say that it's more than just pornography, these works of de Sade. The story line is far to complex, intricate and well-written to be classed porno. It seems more to be an exploration into the dark side of human nature; a side that exists in most of us, but is rarely admitted or discussed. His writings were also a way for de Sade to vent his hatred for the class he longed to be a part of, but couldn't. Most of the debauched protagonists in "120 days..." and "Justine" were rich, aristocratic, or clergy. He himself was a blue blood, but he defamed the name and his wealth was lost. So he detested what he wanted to be, but couldn't. And the fact that he spent decades in prison or asylums didn't help either; it's hard to network from behind bars--LOL. I'm just theorizing; I don't really know.
Understanding where the guy came from is probably important. I would probably never recommend his work to anyone.
I think that what you put into your head can have a profound affect on you, in what you do, how you see others, and how you relate to them.
I try to filter what goes into my poor little brain these days.
As they say in the computer world, GI,GO Garbage In, Garbage Out.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
-
fuzzywuzzy
- Posts: 6596
- Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:35 pm
The Marquis de Sade
ahh yes the old "graffitti for the brain argument" .....
The Marquis de Sade
I should think it highly desirable to expose yourself to literature of every sort. How you react is entirely useful to understanding your own nature. It's not a sin to read de Sade, it's not a sin to be turn on by it, however, it is definitely of questionable integrity to perform sadistic acts on another person unless they are there, kneeling before you in a submissive position asking you by the proper name to punish them.
The Marquis de Sade
Infinite Stop;1390340 wrote: On a recent visit to my parents I found a book called, "120 Days of Sodom," by the infamous Marquis de Sade. It's not my parents, it is apparently a book belonging to my brother from long, long ago, hidden under the basement steps sometime in the 80's I suppose. I'd only heard of de Sade, and that etymologically "sadism" is derived from his name. Anyway, I decided to take a peek and see what all the fuss is about. It didn't take long before I discovered the reason for the controversy. This has to be one of the most disgusting, sadomasochistic works of literature ever imagined. He wrote others like it: Justine and Juliette, and Philosophy in the Bedroom, to name just two.
I have a question. Do you think it's a sin or morally depraved to read such a work? or is labelling such a work "literature" make reading it acceptable?
Or maybe you've read some of Sade's stuff and you'd like to offer a commentary?
Make up your own mind. What i would not accept is someone telling me I could not read it if I so choose - I haven't actually read it nor am I particularly inclined to but that was and is my choice. Sin is subjective, if someone has told you it is a sin and you believe them that is up to you.
posted by infinite stop
Do you think that reading de Sade could--for some--excite them to commit sexual crimes, like rape or bestiality? If yes, then would that fact change your opinion about reading Sade? In that case, should Sade be outlawed? or do you place a higher value in freedom of expression?
Reading the bible or following a religion has led more people to commit atrocities on their fellow man than any scribbling by the marquis or his ilk. We don't outlaw religion so why pick on the marquis de sade? Interestingly it seems to often be religious types that worry people might be led astray by reading such things. Being somewhat cynical I suspect because they themselves are gullible and easily read they tend to assume others are and have the moral certitude to believe they have the right to dictate to others.
I have a question. Do you think it's a sin or morally depraved to read such a work? or is labelling such a work "literature" make reading it acceptable?
Or maybe you've read some of Sade's stuff and you'd like to offer a commentary?
Make up your own mind. What i would not accept is someone telling me I could not read it if I so choose - I haven't actually read it nor am I particularly inclined to but that was and is my choice. Sin is subjective, if someone has told you it is a sin and you believe them that is up to you.
posted by infinite stop
Do you think that reading de Sade could--for some--excite them to commit sexual crimes, like rape or bestiality? If yes, then would that fact change your opinion about reading Sade? In that case, should Sade be outlawed? or do you place a higher value in freedom of expression?
Reading the bible or following a religion has led more people to commit atrocities on their fellow man than any scribbling by the marquis or his ilk. We don't outlaw religion so why pick on the marquis de sade? Interestingly it seems to often be religious types that worry people might be led astray by reading such things. Being somewhat cynical I suspect because they themselves are gullible and easily read they tend to assume others are and have the moral certitude to believe they have the right to dictate to others.
-
Infinite Stop
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:57 am
The Marquis de Sade
LarsMac;1390414 wrote: Understanding where the guy came from is probably important. I would probably never recommend his work to anyone.
I think that what you put into your head can have a profound affect on you, in what you do, how you see others, and how you relate to them.
I try to filter what goes into my poor little brain these days.
As they say in the computer world, GI,GO Garbage In, Garbage Out.
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with this nicely written reply. Like a fly that lands on a stinking turd, the mind that delves into such works cannot help but be tainted by its opprobrious fantasies. It's hard for me to find a legitimate reason to want to read de Sade's works. It makes me wonder, too, if a person could ever live for God and yet read such writings. Seems like a major contradiction to me, to strive for spiritual improvement, while at night and in secret I read the most villainous works ever, in the history of man. I suppose if one had a legitimate academic reason to explore, then that would be different; I don't. I'll have to think about it.
I think that what you put into your head can have a profound affect on you, in what you do, how you see others, and how you relate to them.
I try to filter what goes into my poor little brain these days.
As they say in the computer world, GI,GO Garbage In, Garbage Out.
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with this nicely written reply. Like a fly that lands on a stinking turd, the mind that delves into such works cannot help but be tainted by its opprobrious fantasies. It's hard for me to find a legitimate reason to want to read de Sade's works. It makes me wonder, too, if a person could ever live for God and yet read such writings. Seems like a major contradiction to me, to strive for spiritual improvement, while at night and in secret I read the most villainous works ever, in the history of man. I suppose if one had a legitimate academic reason to explore, then that would be different; I don't. I'll have to think about it.
-
Infinite Stop
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:57 am
The Marquis de Sade
koan;1390508 wrote: I should think it highly desirable to expose yourself to literature of every sort. How you react is entirely useful to understanding your own nature. It's not a sin to read de Sade, it's not a sin to be turn on by it, however, it is definitely of questionable integrity to perform sadistic acts on another person unless they are there, kneeling before you in a submissive position asking you by the proper name to punish them.
So for you it's not a sin to be turned on by reading de Sade. Not only can I read it, but I can be turned on by it, and it's still not a sin, if I get you right.
Let me ask: You don't think it a sin for one to use the gift of the mind and imagination to live out ones masochistic and murderous thoughts against children and adults through such writings? Am I not abusing my cognitive faculties by enjoying or getting "turned on" by crimes that even the loosest moral system would find abhorrent? How 'bout if I were a Catholic priest, would it be a sin then to read 120 Days of Sodom or Justine?
So for you it's not a sin to be turned on by reading de Sade. Not only can I read it, but I can be turned on by it, and it's still not a sin, if I get you right.
Let me ask: You don't think it a sin for one to use the gift of the mind and imagination to live out ones masochistic and murderous thoughts against children and adults through such writings? Am I not abusing my cognitive faculties by enjoying or getting "turned on" by crimes that even the loosest moral system would find abhorrent? How 'bout if I were a Catholic priest, would it be a sin then to read 120 Days of Sodom or Justine?
The Marquis de Sade
Infinite Stop;1390586 wrote: So for you it's not a sin to be turned on by reading de Sade. Not only can I read it, but I can be turned on by it, and it's still not a sin, if I get you right.
Let me ask: You don't think it a sin for one to use the gift of the mind and imagination to live out ones masochistic and murderous thoughts against children and adults through such writings? Am I not abusing my cognitive faculties by enjoying or getting "turned on" by crimes that even the loosest moral system would find abhorrent? How 'bout if I were a Catholic priest, would it be a sin then to read 120 Days of Sodom or Justine?Since there's no God there's no such thing as sin.
Sin Sin, n. [OE. sinne, AS. synn, syn; akin to D. zonde, OS.
sundia, OHG. sunta, G. s["u]nde, Icel., Dan. & Sw. synd, L.
sons, sontis, guilty, perhaps originally from the p. pr. of
the verb signifying, to be, and meaning, the one who it is.
Cf. Authentic, Sooth.]
1. Transgression of the law of God; disobedience of the
divine command; any violation of God's will, either in
purpose or conduct; moral deficiency in the character;
iniquity; as, sins of omission and sins of commission.
[1913 Webster]
Let me ask: You don't think it a sin for one to use the gift of the mind and imagination to live out ones masochistic and murderous thoughts against children and adults through such writings? Am I not abusing my cognitive faculties by enjoying or getting "turned on" by crimes that even the loosest moral system would find abhorrent? How 'bout if I were a Catholic priest, would it be a sin then to read 120 Days of Sodom or Justine?Since there's no God there's no such thing as sin.
Sin Sin, n. [OE. sinne, AS. synn, syn; akin to D. zonde, OS.
sundia, OHG. sunta, G. s["u]nde, Icel., Dan. & Sw. synd, L.
sons, sontis, guilty, perhaps originally from the p. pr. of
the verb signifying, to be, and meaning, the one who it is.
Cf. Authentic, Sooth.]
1. Transgression of the law of God; disobedience of the
divine command; any violation of God's will, either in
purpose or conduct; moral deficiency in the character;
iniquity; as, sins of omission and sins of commission.
[1913 Webster]
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
-
Infinite Stop
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:57 am
The Marquis de Sade
gmc;1390523 wrote: Make up your own mind. What i would not accept is someone telling me I could not read it if I so choose - I haven't actually read it nor am I particularly inclined to but that was and is my choice. Sin is subjective, if someone has told you it is a sin and you believe them that is up to you.
posted by infinite stop
Reading the bible or following a religion has led more people to commit atrocities on their fellow man than any scribbling by the marquis or his ilk. We don't outlaw religion so why pick on the marquis de sade? Interestingly it seems to often be religious types that worry people might be led astray by reading such things. Being somewhat cynical I suspect because they themselves are gullible and easily read they tend to assume others are and have the moral certitude to believe they have the right to dictate to others.
So to you, I should make up my own mind whether it is a sin to read de Sade, since sin is subjective.
That reminds me of a passage from Hebrews: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins~10:26
I'm not a believer in the Bible as the word of God, but I couldn't resist the connection.
I guess I'd have to agree with you. After all is said and done, we ourselves are responsible for the health of our conscience and soul--assuming we have a soul.
You don't have to slam the Bible and religion to me, friend; you're singing to the choir. I truly believe that the Catholic Church (and religion in general) has shown itself to be a great evil in history. I'm sorry if that offends some, but history speaks for itself. I think of the thousands of intellectuals and conscientious objectors that fought the Church's tyranny and lost, in the worst way; and the countless thousands who fell victim to the superstitious propagations of that same church, dying the most unkind deaths, accused of witchcraft and sorcery. And now we have to hear about countless priests who committed the basest crimes against children, but got off scott-free by attending church-sponsored "counseling." If you can't trust a priest, then who can you trust? On the positive side, religion in general has inspired a lot of beautiful art--LOL. I know, it's not funny.
posted by infinite stop
Reading the bible or following a religion has led more people to commit atrocities on their fellow man than any scribbling by the marquis or his ilk. We don't outlaw religion so why pick on the marquis de sade? Interestingly it seems to often be religious types that worry people might be led astray by reading such things. Being somewhat cynical I suspect because they themselves are gullible and easily read they tend to assume others are and have the moral certitude to believe they have the right to dictate to others.
So to you, I should make up my own mind whether it is a sin to read de Sade, since sin is subjective.
That reminds me of a passage from Hebrews: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins~10:26
I'm not a believer in the Bible as the word of God, but I couldn't resist the connection.
I guess I'd have to agree with you. After all is said and done, we ourselves are responsible for the health of our conscience and soul--assuming we have a soul.
You don't have to slam the Bible and religion to me, friend; you're singing to the choir. I truly believe that the Catholic Church (and religion in general) has shown itself to be a great evil in history. I'm sorry if that offends some, but history speaks for itself. I think of the thousands of intellectuals and conscientious objectors that fought the Church's tyranny and lost, in the worst way; and the countless thousands who fell victim to the superstitious propagations of that same church, dying the most unkind deaths, accused of witchcraft and sorcery. And now we have to hear about countless priests who committed the basest crimes against children, but got off scott-free by attending church-sponsored "counseling." If you can't trust a priest, then who can you trust? On the positive side, religion in general has inspired a lot of beautiful art--LOL. I know, it's not funny.
-
Infinite Stop
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:57 am
The Marquis de Sade
Ahso!;1390590 wrote: Since there's no God there's no such a thing as sin.
Sin Sin, n. [OE. sinne, AS. synn, syn; akin to D. zonde, OS.
sundia, OHG. sunta, G. s["u]nde, Icel., Dan. & Sw. synd, L.
sons, sontis, guilty, perhaps originally from the p. pr. of
the verb signifying, to be, and meaning, the one who it is.
Cf. Authentic, Sooth.]
1. Transgression of the law of God; disobedience of the
divine command; any violation of God's will, either in
purpose or conduct; moral deficiency in the character;
iniquity; as, sins of omission and sins of commission.
[1913 Webster]
Oh, hey, Ahso. I wouldn't expect anything other than that kind of reply from you, since you argue the atheist's point of view. And that's fine. I only speak of sin for those that are willing to set aside the question of God's existence for the sake of the sin topic.
But, really, sin does not require God's existence according to definition: any act regarded as such a transgression, especially a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle. ~from dictionary.com
Notice it says against some "religious or moral principle." it doesn't say against the God that we know exists.
Sin Sin, n. [OE. sinne, AS. synn, syn; akin to D. zonde, OS.
sundia, OHG. sunta, G. s["u]nde, Icel., Dan. & Sw. synd, L.
sons, sontis, guilty, perhaps originally from the p. pr. of
the verb signifying, to be, and meaning, the one who it is.
Cf. Authentic, Sooth.]
1. Transgression of the law of God; disobedience of the
divine command; any violation of God's will, either in
purpose or conduct; moral deficiency in the character;
iniquity; as, sins of omission and sins of commission.
[1913 Webster]
Oh, hey, Ahso. I wouldn't expect anything other than that kind of reply from you, since you argue the atheist's point of view. And that's fine. I only speak of sin for those that are willing to set aside the question of God's existence for the sake of the sin topic.
But, really, sin does not require God's existence according to definition: any act regarded as such a transgression, especially a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle. ~from dictionary.com
Notice it says against some "religious or moral principle." it doesn't say against the God that we know exists.
The Marquis de Sade
Infinite Stop;1390593 wrote: Oh, hey, Ahso. I wouldn't expect anything other than that kind of reply from you, since you argue the atheist's point of view. And that's fine. I only speak of sin for those that are willing to set aside the question of God's existence for the sake of the sin topic.
But, really, sin does not require God's existence according to definition: any act regarded as such a transgression, especially a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle. ~from dictionary.com
Notice it says against some "religious or moral principle." it doesn't say against the God that we know exists.You're pretty smooth, IS, you've got everyone in the thread acquiescing to your religious vernacular.
I don't doubt you'll eventually make the claim somewhere either in this thread or another that knowledge of God is embedded deep in the soul of every human and that's why humans so readily speak in moralistic terms and context.
Morality does not come from any God, it is negotiated and agreed upon by groups of individuals for the purpose of serving the good of a community.
But, really, sin does not require God's existence according to definition: any act regarded as such a transgression, especially a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle. ~from dictionary.com
Notice it says against some "religious or moral principle." it doesn't say against the God that we know exists.You're pretty smooth, IS, you've got everyone in the thread acquiescing to your religious vernacular.
I don't doubt you'll eventually make the claim somewhere either in this thread or another that knowledge of God is embedded deep in the soul of every human and that's why humans so readily speak in moralistic terms and context.
Morality does not come from any God, it is negotiated and agreed upon by groups of individuals for the purpose of serving the good of a community.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
-
Infinite Stop
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:57 am
The Marquis de Sade
Ahso!;1390597 wrote: You're pretty smooth, IS, you've got everyone in the thread acquiescing to your religious vernacular.
I wouldn't doubt you'll eventually make the claim somewhere either in this thread or another that religion is embedded deep in the soul of every human and that's why they so readily speak in terms in religious terms and context.
You speak too highly of my ability to convince--LOL. And I don't see myself pushing any religous vernacular anywhere in here; if anything I'm anti-religious; and that's nothing against God or spirituality. I just think religion has done far more harm than good. I think it's a noble quest, seeking the divine; but not if it includes hating and killing thy neighbor because their path to God differs from mine. I simply cannot reconcile "love thy neighbor as thyself" & "love thine enemies" with torture and murder by burning or any other means. Is it possible that those who were entrusted with Christ's loving message could have been the same souls that committed these atrocities? Well, the answer is, it is possible, as history attests to the truth of it.
I wouldn't say that religion is "embedded in the soul." Instead religion is a mental construct and practical system invented by man. It may be, however, that what is embedded in our soul is that we are born of spirit greater than ourselves; and like a new-born lamb, humanity gropes for the teat of that spiritual mother, if you'll allow such an analogy. Religion may have started out with good intentions, but eventually fell victim to power, control, and man's bureaucratic tendencies. Don't get me wrong, religion is not all bad, as it has produced much kindness and valuable truths. It's just that I think that, in the long-run, the world may have been better off had people not fallen into that cesspool of superstition that religion seems to forever flounder.
I wouldn't doubt you'll eventually make the claim somewhere either in this thread or another that religion is embedded deep in the soul of every human and that's why they so readily speak in terms in religious terms and context.
You speak too highly of my ability to convince--LOL. And I don't see myself pushing any religous vernacular anywhere in here; if anything I'm anti-religious; and that's nothing against God or spirituality. I just think religion has done far more harm than good. I think it's a noble quest, seeking the divine; but not if it includes hating and killing thy neighbor because their path to God differs from mine. I simply cannot reconcile "love thy neighbor as thyself" & "love thine enemies" with torture and murder by burning or any other means. Is it possible that those who were entrusted with Christ's loving message could have been the same souls that committed these atrocities? Well, the answer is, it is possible, as history attests to the truth of it.
I wouldn't say that religion is "embedded in the soul." Instead religion is a mental construct and practical system invented by man. It may be, however, that what is embedded in our soul is that we are born of spirit greater than ourselves; and like a new-born lamb, humanity gropes for the teat of that spiritual mother, if you'll allow such an analogy. Religion may have started out with good intentions, but eventually fell victim to power, control, and man's bureaucratic tendencies. Don't get me wrong, religion is not all bad, as it has produced much kindness and valuable truths. It's just that I think that, in the long-run, the world may have been better off had people not fallen into that cesspool of superstition that religion seems to forever flounder.
The Marquis de Sade
Infinite Stop;1390601 wrote: It may be, however, that what is embedded in our soul is that we are born of spirit greater than ourselves; and like a new-born lamb, humanity gropes for the teat of that spiritual motherCare to explain this?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
-
Infinite Stop
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:57 am
The Marquis de Sade
Ahso!;1390602 wrote: Care to explain this?
You mean, what is a "teat"? LOL
No, that's just some whimsical speculation there, that's all. You'll notice I said, "It may be..."--just speculation. You were the one that brought up "soul" and what might be embedded in it. I just clarified things by pointing out that religion is man-made, and that more plausibly, our seeking the divine is due to the "embedded" truth of our divine origins; that is, we are spirit born of spirit. Speculation.
P.s. Have you ever noticed that as soon as I come in here the number of posters drops dramatically. No kidding. I sure know how to clear a room, don't I?
You mean, what is a "teat"? LOL
No, that's just some whimsical speculation there, that's all. You'll notice I said, "It may be..."--just speculation. You were the one that brought up "soul" and what might be embedded in it. I just clarified things by pointing out that religion is man-made, and that more plausibly, our seeking the divine is due to the "embedded" truth of our divine origins; that is, we are spirit born of spirit. Speculation.
P.s. Have you ever noticed that as soon as I come in here the number of posters drops dramatically. No kidding. I sure know how to clear a room, don't I?
The Marquis de Sade
Infinite Stop;1390604 wrote: P.s. Have you ever noticed that as soon as I come in here the number of posters drops dramatically. No kidding. I sure know how to clear a room, don't I?That's coincidence. Take my word for it. You're welcome here.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
-
Infinite Stop
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:57 am
The Marquis de Sade
Ahso!;1390611 wrote: That's coincidence. Take my word for it. You're welcome here.
You mean it doesn't bother you that I'm right and you're wrong?
You are one hell of a guy.
You mean it doesn't bother you that I'm right and you're wrong?
You are one hell of a guy.
The Marquis de Sade
Infinite Stop;1390619 wrote: You mean it doesn't bother you that I'm right and you're wrong? No, delusion intrigues me.
Infinite Stop;1390619 wrote: You are one hell of a guy.That's what all the girls say.
No, delusion intrigues me.Infinite Stop;1390619 wrote: You are one hell of a guy.That's what all the girls say.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple