British 12 year old Muslim Bride

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:04 pm

The British child brides: Muslim mosque leaders agree to marry girl of 12... so long as parents don't tell anyone | Mail Online

Apparently It's OK to marry a 12 year old girl In Great Britain under Sharia law as long as the parents don't tell anyone.

Post by **spot** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:30 pm

Tell me oscar, is this marriage of which you speak recognised in British law?

If it isn't, to what extent does what you're describing differ from, say, holding a birthday party?

Post by **spot** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:37 pm

I think on Tuesday I might marry Laura (she's nearly two) to next door's cat under the auspices of The Church Of ForumGarden and send photos of the event to the Mail. I wonder whether it might make the front page. Or maybe I need it to be The Islamic Church Of ForumGarden to get that much publicity. What I'm fairly sure is that I'd not be breaking the laws of England unless I claim to be registered to perform marriages and hand out a counterfeit certificate purporting to be legal issue.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:15 pm

How is this different from the ultra Mormons, or renegade Mormons, who do the same? It is up to the government to enforce laws, not the religious. The ultra religious of any stripe feel justified in doing any crazy thing "God" tells them to do. That is their defense. It's the governments who are too cowardly to act.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:18 pm

PS--

just like the situation where, in Britain, celebrating ramadan justifies being a public nuisance. It's up to the cops/politicians who should bravely enforce their own laws.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:20 pm

PS again!

I'm not dissing Britain, just referring to your own problems with neighbors. *I* am an Anglophile, you bet!

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:22 pm

AnneBoleyn;1403991 wrote: PS--

just like the situation where, in Britain, celebrating ramadan justifies being a public nuisance. It's up to the cops/politicians who should bravely enforce their own laws.

In that case Anne...they were not celebrating Ramadan as Ramadan ended on the 24th August... they were just being nuisence neighbours. If they had of been celebrating Ramadan, neighbours would have been tolerant and understood.... by the way.... total peace and quiet since the community police had a friendly word.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:25 pm

Yay! Sometimes that's all it takes--a civilized friendly conversation. Glad things quieted down for you.

Just because of a religious holiday (a month long one at that) I do not feel that is any excuse for being a public nuisance.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:54 am

Oscar..........well done, I think you have cracked it.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:06 am

Bruv;1404016 wrote: Oscar..........well done, I think you have cracked it. Are you referring to the community police having words or the article about a 12 year old bride?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:16 am

oscar;1404019 wrote: Are you referring to the community police having words or the article about a 12 year old bride?
Neither..................not rising to the bait.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:20 am

Bruv;1404020 wrote: Neither..................not rising to the bait. Bait ? I just didn't get your post. Anne had posted about the neighbours so I didn't know If you meant that or the article.... no worries.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:27 am

Have you anyone on block ?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:37 am

Bruv;1404022 wrote: Have you anyone on block ? Pennies just dropped :wah:

You are very, very naughty.... :wah:

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:13 am

AnneBoleyn;1403994 wrote: Yay! Sometimes that's all it takes--a civilized friendly conversation. Glad things quieted down for you.

Just because of a religious holiday (a month long one at that) I do not feel that is any excuse for being a public nuisance. I had a feeling a quiet word from local police would be more beneficial than a month long Investigation by the council.... I know the single mum living next door to them really couldn't take any more... It just wasn't fair...

I have other Muslim friend and neighbours who celebrate Ramadan but they tell me that under no circumstances would they do It In their back garden for a month until 4 In the morning out of respect for other people..... so It was never about religion, just Inconsiderate people.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:03 pm

oscar;1403978 wrote: The British child brides: Muslim mosque leaders agree to marry girl of 12... so long as parents don't tell anyone | Mail Online

Apparently It's OK to marry a 12 year old girl In Great Britain under Sharia law as long as the parents don't tell anyone.

Wondered if you would bring that one up. Makes a change for the daily mail not to be banging on about disabled people living on benefits or the single parents that are ruining the family and the country breeding a generation of wastrels.

posted by spot

Tell me oscar, is this marriage of which you speak recognised in British law?

If it isn't, to what extent does what you're describing differ from, say, holding a birthday party?

Which bit of the article did you have difficulty comprehending? Was it this? Or did you simply not read the article, which is obviously aimed at stirring up race hatred.

It is not illegal for clerics to perform Islamic marriages, even when one or both of those marrying are under 16.

Such marriages are not recognised in British law, so civil formalities can take place only if both are over 16.

Islamic law allows a couple to have sex after marriage but, as the legal age of consent is 16, a husband can be prosecuted for rape if he has sex with an underage girl.

After a birthday party the birthday girl doesn't get shacked up with her new husband and effectively have her life as a free individual terminated. It's easy for us to say but a 12 year old in a family that thinks like this has very little chance of getting away from them.

Post by **spot** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:18 pm

All you say is so, except that you use the word "marriage" as though it has a single application. It has two. It is (1) a legal contract registered by the state which changes the rights and responsibilities of the parties, or it is (2) something else. Whichever of those it is, it's not an enforceable offer of sex as you imply, least of all with a 12 year old. What you quoted from the Mail is exactly what I said. The Mail's headline is a pretence that the arrangement under discussion is marriage in any meaningful sense in this country. It's an abuse of the English language to call that ceremony, in England, a marriage.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:30 pm

Are we seriously discussing the definition of the word marriage ?

Post by **spot** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:47 pm

Bruv;1404149 wrote: Are we seriously discussing the definition of the word marriage ?

What aspect of the ceremony under discussion resembles your understanding of the word marriage, Bruv?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:57 pm

spot;1404156 wrote: What aspect of the ceremony under discussion resembles your understanding of the word marriage, Bruv?

I don't think MY understanding is under discussion.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:14 pm

Bruv;1404158 wrote: I don't think MY understanding is under discussion. Anyway, the Muslim Cleric has now stepped down after the Undercover operation.

Imam Mohamed Kassamali steps down after 'being caught agreeing to marry girl of 12' | Mail Online

Taken from article:

Imam Mohamed Kassamali is said to have told an undercover reporter posing as a father that he could carry out a ceremony for his school-aged daughter.

He allegedly told the Sunday Times journalist: 'If it (the marriage) was not possible, I would have told you straight away... I would love the girl to go to her husbandâ€™s houses (sic) as soon as possible, the younger the better.

Sting: An undercover reporter filmed two imams agreeing to officiate at the wedding of a 12-year-old girl and a man in his 20s

Child bride: An imam at the Husaini Islamic Centre in Peterborough has stepped down temporarily while the incident is investigated

'Under Sharia (Islamic law) there is no problem. It is said she should see her first sign of puberty at the house of her husband.

'The problem is that we cannot explain such things (the marriage) if the girl went tomorrow (to the authorities).

'The other thing is the underage thing and if tomorrow the girl is, letâ€™s say coerced or forced into this, and she goes and reports it to the police then she will put all of us into the problems.'

Yes, It's called child abuse.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:34 am

spot;1404156 wrote: What aspect of the ceremony under discussion resembles your understanding of the word marriage, Bruv?

It wasn't until the 1830's I think in england that civil marriages were recognised, (scotland being a more advanced and literate country had different laws that were remarkably liberal for the time) up until then anyone who was not married in a church was not married and their children were illegitimate, being a bastard condemned you for life once upon a time. Thee are still those who argue that true marriage is only in a church anything else does not count, worse if you marry outside your religion or ethnic group there are plenty who would see you burn in hell. Funnily enough there are also many who would end divorce if given the opportunity. Currently there us a big debate whether a church ceremony between a marriage between a same sex couple is indeed a marriage in any meaningful sense, indeed some say it is an abomination against nature and against the laws of god. Your definitions of marriage are very interesting but the meaning is a changing even as we speak.

If a religious group decides to give it's own definition to the meaning of the word marriage it seems they can choose to ignore the society around them and indeed insist we accept there particular prejudices on the grounds that they are representing god.

posted by oscar

Yes, It's called child abuse.

Pity the poor priest who cannot resist the wiles of evil children

Father Benedict Groeschel, American Friar, Claims Teens Seduce Priests In Some Sex Abuse Cases

If you go back 10 or 15 years ago with different sexual difficulties â€” except for rape or violence â€” it was very rarely brought as a civil crime. Nobody thought of it that way... And Iâ€™m inclined to think, on [a priest's] first offense, they should not go to jail because their intention was not committing a crime."

Mind you i suppose if you believe sex was the original sin and sex as an evil temptation you are not going to be capable of thinking rationally about such things are you?