Converting Israelis to christianity?

Bridget · Post by **Bridget** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:30 pm

I saw an article with a picture in a newspaper a couple of days ago that I find rather disturbing. I was wondering how some of you would feel about it. First I want to state I am a protestant in the Methodist church. So no athistismor agnosticism involved here. The article showed and stated that several regilious "ministers" with deep pockets were starting TV stations in Israel to try and convert Israelies to christianity. I find this very upsetting that these ministers would try to interfere with a countries religion. These people are who they are and I feel they should be left alone regardless of their religion. I would not like for foreign countries to enter my country and try to convert me to any other religion than what I was taught from a little child. Some American just can't believe even tho we think the USA is the greatest that not everyone believes it. Why can't they stay in the uSA and convert our people to christiainty. Believe me there are plenty of Americans who need it. Am I being very narrow minded. I have never really believed in missionaries either. I believe let people be. What do you think?

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:52 pm

Bridget;1408206 wrote: I saw an article with a picture in a newspaper a couple of days ago that I find rather disturbing. I was wondering how some of you would feel about it. First I want to state I am a protestant in the Methodist church. So no athistismor agnosticism involved here. The article showed and stated that several regilious "ministers" with deep pockets were starting TV stations in Israel to try and convert Israelies to christianity. I find this very upsetting that these ministers would try to interfere with a countries religion. These people are who they are and I feel they should be left alone regardless of their religion. I would not like for foreign countries to enter my country and try to convert me to any other religion than what I was taught from a little child. Some American just can't believe even tho we think the USA is the greatest that not everyone believes it. Why can't they stay in the uSA and convert our people to christiainty. Believe me there are plenty of Americans who need it. Am I being very narrow minded. I have never really believed in missionaries either. I believe let people be. What do you think?

Attack a person, whether in their religion or their culture or any other aspect of their life, and you're more likely to entrench their position than to convert them to yours.

Welcome diversity, be strong in your beliefs by allowing others to be strong in theirs

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:01 pm

Is there an idea out there among some Christians that converting Jews gets them a special prize or something? I remember when I was a Christian there was extra recognition for converting a Jew.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:09 pm

I thought religion was something a person had, not an area of land.

I thought quite a few Israelis were Christian.

If it comes to that, I thought quite a few Israelis were Muslim.

eta: Here we are. 76% of Israelis are Jews of whom two thirds profess a belief in God, 17% of Israelis are Muslim and 2% of Israelis are Christian.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:34 pm

Bridget;1408206 wrote: The article showed and stated that several regilious "ministers" with deep pockets were starting TV stations in Israel to try and convert Israelies to christianity.

Actually Bridget, that's one of the wonderful things about living in a free country, (which both America and Israel are) you get to choose what you'd like to believe.

I find this very upsetting that these ministers would try to interfere with a countries religion.

It's not interference in a free country, they are free to put out their message just like anyone else.

These people are who they are and I feel they should be left alone regardless of their religion.

So...you NEVER changed your mind about anything in your life?!!

I would not like for foreign countries to enter my country and try to convert me to any other religion than what I was taught from a little child.

Wow. You're not OK with the Pilgrims teaching Christianity to the Native Americans then?!! That's funny, considering that not only the Quakers, but the Methodists were notorious for indoctrinating Native Americans.

Am I being very narrow minded.

Yes. Possibly naive as well. Look, if adult, intelligent people want to believe in a particular religion, they will. Whether you outlaw it or not. Doesn't Jesus want all his followers to spread the word? Why would you be against that?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:40 pm

The Mormons baptize Jews after they are dead.

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:02 pm

From what I have seen, few people actually convert from one religion to another unless they are not really happy with the one in which they started.

So I suppose all those "undecideds" who may claim one religion or another but aren't really following the tenets - like those Jews who don't believe in God - are fair game. So if you can score a conversion from those, more power to you.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:05 pm

Saint_;1408217 wrote: Wow. You're not OK with the Pilgrims teaching Christianity to the Native Americans then?!! That's funny, considering that not only the Quakers, but the Methodists were notorious for indoctrinating Native Americans.

Oh be fair - Methodism didn't come into existence until 1738 at the very earliest - Methodism in America starts more in the 1770s and that's just Francis Asbury. That's a full century and a half after the Pilgrims.

And - if you'd like to ask my view - no, I equate the Pilgrims teaching Christianity to the Native Americans with genocide, cultural as far as religion's concerned and physical as far as the result of the European invasion goes.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:14 pm

LarsMac;1408222 wrote: From what I have seen, few people actually convert from one religion to another unless they are not really happy with the one in which they started.

So I suppose all those "undecideds" who may claim one religion or another but aren't really following the tenets - like those Jews who don't believe in God - are fair game. So if you can score a conversion from those, more power to you.

Why would a Jew who doesn't believe in God do so when Jesus is thrown in the mix? If you score a conversion you're doing so with the intent of doing a favor so your Jew won't go to hell with the other Jews. Oh, wait, that's not really popular anymore. The Evangelicals adore the Jews now. Not too much of that Christ Killer stuff anymore.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:20 pm

AnneBoleyn;1408219 wrote: The Mormons baptize Jews after they are dead.

Which I believe is wrong since they do not get to make that decision for themselves and besides...it's just plain insensitive and rude to the surviving families.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:22 pm

Týr;1408223 wrote: Oh be fair - Methodism didn't come into existence until 1738 at the very earliest - Methodism in America starts more in the 1770s and that's just Francis Asbury. That's a full century and a half after the Pilgrims.

And - if you'd like to ask my view - no, I equate the Pilgrims teaching Christianity to the Native Americans with genocide, cultural as far as religion's concerned and physical as far as the result of the European invasion goes.

Nitpicking...my point being that religious teaching and indoctrination goes on all the time across all religions and her people are just as guilty as anyone. (I was trying to shock her a bit and you ruined it!) LOL!:wah:

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:22 pm

Saint_;1408225 wrote: Which I believe is wrong since they do not get to make that decision for themselvesCatholics baptizing babies?

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:23 pm

Ahso!;1408228 wrote: Catholics baptizing babies?

Good point, but at least they're still living and can renounce it later if they wish.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:24 pm

Saint_;1408225 wrote: Which I believe is wrong since they do not get to make that decision for themselves and besides...it's just plain insensitive and rude to the surviving families.

I am of two minds on this. 1. I agree with you completely. 2. The whole thing is ridiculous :yh_rotfl because it isn't true anyway.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:25 pm

We have the Forum Garden equivalent of the trinity.......in cut down form....Tyr (accent missing) and FG watching from the wings

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:25 pm

Saint_;1408229 wrote: Good point, but at least they're still living and can renounce it later if they wish.Does renouncing undo the baptism from God's viewpoint?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:30 pm

Bruv;1408231 wrote: We have the Forum Garden equivalent of the trinity.......in cut down form....Tyr (accent missing) and FG watching from the wings
It's a full trinity. The spirit of spot is still here.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:33 pm

Ahso!;1408232 wrote: Does renouncing undo the baptism from God's viewpoint?

Yes. That is because of Free Will, & you can always change your mind again & return to Jesus.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:50 pm

Saint_;1408227 wrote: Nitpicking...my point being that religious teaching and indoctrination goes on all the time across all religions
When did you last meet an evangelizing Jew, or read of one in a history book unless he was trying to talk Jews out of their Jewish belief.

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:51 pm

AnneBoleyn;1408224 wrote: Why would a Jew who doesn't believe in God do so when Jesus is thrown in the mix? If you score a conversion you're doing so with the intent of doing a favor so your Jew won't go to hell with the other Jews. Oh, wait, that's not really popular anymore. The Evangelicals adore the Jews now. Not too much of that Christ Killer stuff anymore.

Don't ask me to get into the psychology of the thing. But I guess that there are folks who don't believe in God because they don't buy the stuff they were fed, but are still, deep down inside, looking for him. Those are the ones the Evangelicals are looking for. Some of us just keep looking until we find him, wherever that might be.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:52 pm

Wouldn't renouncing baptism be considered an unforgivable sin since that's the ultimate disrespect for God's sacrifice of his only begotten son?

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:52 pm

Ahso!;1408232 wrote: Does renouncing undo the baptism from God's viewpoint?

Beats me. I think it does, as God is into "free will." But I'm not evangelical enough to know. Religion's more a personal conversation with me. I believe in a BIG God (Universe-spanning, if you catch my meaning.)

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:56 pm

Ahso!;1408240 wrote: Wouldn't renouncing baptism be considered an unforgivable sin since that's the ultimate disrespect for God's sacrifice of his only begotten son?

According to most Christian branches I know of, the only unforgivable sin is suicide, since that is throwing away God's greatest gift. But, as I understand it, literally anything else can be forgiven, even up to the second of death, if the sinner is truly sorry (repentant) and believes in God with all his or her heart.

I used to think this was a bit of a cop-out, you know, "go ahead and live a bad life, just remember to ask for forgiveness at the last second!" But now I think of it as more of a "it's never too late to learn" type of thing.

I also think Hell is God's last try to save an insane soul. If nothing else will convince an evil soul to repent, well maybe Hell will. And if not... it was worth the try!

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:02 pm

Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.Matthew 12:32

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:05 pm

Ahso!;1408243 wrote: Matthew 12:32So if the person verbally renounces it's unforgivable I guess. Baptism is the welcoming of the Holy Spirit, I think. Isn't it?

Eris · Post by **Eris** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:15 am

Bridget;1408206 wrote: Why can't they stay in the uSA and convert our people to christiainty. Believe me there are plenty of Americans who need it. Am I being very narrow minded. I have never really believed in missionaries either. I believe let people be. What do you think?
I think letting people be would entail not evangelizing anywhere. If they insist on pestering people, I'd rather they do it somewhere else, and stay there a long time. Like forever.

Eris · Post by **Eris** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:26 am

Saint_;1408242 wrote: I also think Hell is God's last try to save an insane soul. If nothing else will convince an evil soul to repent, well maybe Hell will. And if not... it was worth the try!
Torture being recognized as a very effective cure for insanity and all.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:36 am

Eris;1408282 wrote: Torture being recognized as a very effective cure for insanity and all.

You don't know that story of the catatonic that they put in hotbox? He said the first words he had said in ten years, 'Get me the hell out of here!":)

But seriously, I believe Hell is more like Dante's Hell where there is a way out after learning to hate evil. If nothing else can make a soul reject evil and love God, then maybe Hell was worth a try. Even Limbo could be considered Hell, although Dante says that's just a place where unbaptised children, and the Righteous, those who lived good lives but were never baptised, reside. They are not punished, but live in nice white houses at the Vestible of Hell. Some say that the children will be born again.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:48 am

I'm bemused that there's any definition of sanity which includes your world view, Saint.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:12 am

Týr;1408831 wrote: I'm bemused that there's any definition of sanity which includes your world view, Saint.

LOL. Said the guy with the "crazy" mood tag and the skeleton hand avatar...

Of course I meant "theological insanity" of the soul, as opposed to clinical insanity of the mind.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:40 am

Saint_;1408832 wrote: LOL. Said the guy with the "crazy" mood tag and the skeleton hand avatar...

Of course I meant "theological insanity" of the soul, as opposed to clinical insanity of the mind.

But it's odd, you have to admit.

I tend to employ a mirror test when I ask whether a view's rational. I switch who's the teller and who's the "other" and see if it's equally reasonable.

If these beliefs which form the bedrock of your world view were expressed as Hindu notions, for example, complete with Krishnas and Ganeshes and reincarnation, you'd think it was maybe quaint but nevertheless entirely fictional. You'd wonder how any sane bunch of people could waste any time whatever in lauding these man-made creations much less worshiping anything so obviously infernal. The whole concept of what's holy would be tainted were you to pray to these things.

And yet, if you switch the viewer and the viewed, here you are spouting just as infernal a set of balls but you'd be affronted were anyone to call it devil-worship. And yet that, in all honestly, is what it is.

I've never changed my mood tag, a kindly moderator applied the epithet to which you refer. The avatar, however, is appropriate.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:27 am

Týr;1408834 wrote: nd were anyone to call it devil-worship. And yet that, in all honestly, is what it is.

Not at all. It's simply Christianity, although I tend to take Dante at his word a bit more than most people. He did, after all, say an angel gave him the tour in a vision. I like the symmetry of the God that never gives up on a soul. Eternal damnation seems a bit much to me.

Týr · Post by **Týr** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:45 am

You do accept, I hope, that you're speaking asymmetrically? That if a Hindu said the same from his perspective you'd treat what he said as falsehood? And that a Hindu would presumably treat your statement as falsehood too? Because each of your world views precludes the other's from being anything but falsehood?

Which leaves the observer noting that you claim your religious belief to be true while also claiming that all non-Christian beliefs are false. If my asymmetry test is reasonable then it voids your statements of belief as meaningless outside of your religion, and your world view as insane to any unbiased observer. And, speaking for myself, not merely insane but ugly too - the notion of worshiping the sort of God you imply just plain disgusts me.

Eris · Post by **Eris** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:04 am

Saint_;1408845 wrote: I like the symmetry of the God that never gives up on a soul.
Then why is there a Hell in the first place? If a soul is "theologically insane", why not just cure the insanity? The soul is broken, and it's within God's power to repair it. What kind of god would pitch a broken soul into Hell instead of fixing it?

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:13 am

Eris;1408850 wrote: Then why is there a Hell in the first place? If a soul is "theologically insane", why not just cure the insanity? The soul is broken, and it's within God's power to repair it. What kind of god would pitch a broken soul into Hell instead of fixing it?

Are you guys assuming that I'm some kind of theologist? As to fixing it, there's that whole "free will" thing in Christianity.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:23 am

Well, anyway, I'm all for freedom of religion, I am very tolerant of all religions, and, to get back to the thread, I think it's fine to let the Israelis that want to believe in christianity to do so.

and with that, I'm out of this spooky thread, you guys are scaring me. (clicks "unsubscribe to thread")