Medical Malpractice in the USA

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:28 pm

I drop this in Societal Issues forum because there isn't a better forum I could find for it. However, if I missed a better one, admin feel free to move it. Why do I even bother to put such a statement in the opening post? Why, I'm happy you asked ... I asked ... whatever. It's because I noticed that starting a thread with a quote tends to plaster the quote right across the avatar. And since mine is a fine self portrait, I am loathe to cover such a handsome mug. :yh_wink

halfway;1415538 wrote: 195,000 dead each year due to medical malpractice.

And that is not the biggest conversation we are having?

Shame....if we care so much....

Accountable;1415543 wrote: But that's being taken care of. Eventual nationalization of the medical system means that no one will be able to claim malpractice. No claim, no malpractice. Problem solved.

halfway;1415544 wrote: I like the way you think accountable. Almost at the Utopia...just a few more restrictions...almost there...it's gonna we wonderful.....

Yet the nature of man remains as it has since the beginning.....

Ahso!;1415571 wrote: Absolutely! The more flippant the better. Peas in a pod.
Ahso, have you heard of the famous malpractice case the military combat vet brought against the surgeon that botched his reconstructive facial surgery?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:46 pm

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:53 pm

Ahso!;1415645 wrote: Nope
Right. Neither has anyone else. That's because GIs aren't allowed to sue military doctors for malpractice, or anything else. It's certainly not outside the realm of possibility that a nationalized healthcare system (which President Obama and others want) would implement similar restrictions.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:07 pm

Nothing is outside the realm of possibilities. Can they sue the employer?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:10 pm

Can who sue the employer?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:46 pm

I was asking if the government or military itself can be sued. Apparently not. That would need addressing in a single payer system. I'm sure insurance companies would have something to say about it.

I doubt going to a single payer system would mean adopting military legalities.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:49 am

Accountable;1415647 wrote: Right. Neither has anyone else. That's because GIs aren't allowed to sue military doctors for malpractice, or anything else. It's certainly not outside the realm of possibility that a nationalized healthcare system (which President Obama and others want) would implement similar restrictions.

It's also not outside the realm of possibilities that a nationalised healthcare system would not implement such restrictions. You have some very strange ideas about what a nationalised healthcare system could be like.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:10 am

First off, it's an American nationalized system, so it would have a 'z'. You Brits really oughta learn to spell right.

Second, the US federal gov't tends not to reinvent the wheel. If it's been doing a thing one way, it tends to continue doing it that way, even in new situations. For instance, a TSA agent is generally immune from individual lawsuit so long as it can be shown that (s)he can establish that (s)he followed established procedure. It's very likely doctors would be afforded the same protections. It's also routine to legally tie patients' hands even now by having them sign that they understand the risks of a given procedure, and having them sign another document absolving the doctor if the procedure is refused.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:45 am

I think thinking in terms of Medicare is a safer bet. Nobody in the US is going to be trying to put either the insurance industry or personal injury attorneys out of business. One huge problem with Medicare expansion is finding a balance between the doctors right to charge what they wish thus allowing the market to drive prices and maintaining a funding pool.

As it is now, It's possible to go into one of these medical retail stores and pay a standard charge for care of a particular ailment provided it doesn't become complicated - then all bets are off.

Access is the issue first and foremost and a single payer system such as Medicare would address that.

What my fear is with what we've got now is the insurance industry will continue preventing people from banding together to drive prices down. The exchanges are designed to assist in that effort, but of course we see resistance to them with little doubt of knowing who's behind that.

Stabilization of the American economy needs to occur and the secret there is figuring out how to cap amounts people can make or continue the ongoing process of creating money by whatever means necessary. Those two issues feed off each other.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:57 am

Ahso!;1415671 wrote: What my fear is with what we've got now is the insurance industry will continue preventing people from banding together to drive prices down.
That was the trade-off with giving up our financial responsibilities and relying on insurance and credit card companies to take care of even our most basic needs. It would be better if the prices keep going up until not even the insurers can afford it. Then allow the markets to resettle after the collapse. But of course that involves pain, and rich fat spoiled people (which is what our society has become) will avoid pain at all costs.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:07 am

That's way too cynical for my liking. This idea of 100mph and then panic stopping is the problem. Pain, to the degree that we've been subjecting ourselves to is unnecessary.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:53 am

I know a doctor that actually killed me. Yep, misdiagnosed me for over a year, until I was so sick I had a heart attack and died for over two minutes. (Interesting experience, seeing the back of your own head, but that's another story.) She has actually slapped my wife on her leg (the one that was eventually amputated) and told her it was "all in her head." Every doctor I know, every school nurse I've talked to, every health care professional from lab techs to surgeons has admitted to me that they have no idea why this woman is still practicing medicine.

Is the U.S. health care system broken? Believe it or die.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:25 am

Ahso!;1415678 wrote: That's way too cynical for my liking. This idea of 100mph and then panic stopping is the problem. Pain, to the degree that we've been subjecting ourselves to is unnecessary.
So was the gluttony that put is in the current situation.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:26 am

Saint_;1415680 wrote: I know a doctor that actually killed me. Yep, misdiagnosed me for over a year, until I was so sick I had a heart attack and died for over two minutes. (Interesting experience, seeing the back of your own head, but that's another story.) She has actually slapped my wife on her leg (the one that was eventually amputated) and told her it was "all in her head." Every doctor I know, every school nurse I've talked to, every health care professional from lab techs to surgeons has admitted to me that they have no idea why this woman is still practicing medicine.

Is the U.S. health care system broken? Believe it or die.Do you know how many times the doctor has been sued for malpractice? I assume you sued her.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:19 pm

I consider it to be highly unlikely that the US would adopt military procedures and disallow lawsuits for malpractice. Malpractice insurance for doctors and hospitals is very profitable for the insurance companies and they have an army of lobbyists in Washington to see that they get what they want. Malpractice lawsuits are highly profitable for lawyers and they also have a presence in Washington.

Congress doesn't even want to combine the two government-run healthcare services (Medicare and TriCare) and they definitely do not want their own health care (Federal Employees Healthcare) to become part of Medicare.

A friend asked me to check out her new doctor, awhile back. She found him to be "odd" and was surprised at the amount of Scientology magazines in the waiting room. A quick check of the state database revealed that he had had his license revoked for 5 years for inappropriate sexual contact with patients, now has a few dozen complaints filed for similar actions, and is currently being sued for malpractice.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:51 pm

Accountable;1415647 wrote: Right. Neither has anyone else. That's because GIs aren't allowed to sue military doctors for malpractice, or anything else. It's certainly not outside the realm of possibility that a nationalized healthcare system (which President Obama and others want) would implement similar restrictions.

Take your examples from other nationalised healthcare systems - have any of them implemented similar restrictions? I think you'll find not for the simple reason that the military is a law unto itself whereas a civilian service is accountable to the people it serves.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:19 pm

Bryn Mawr;1415769 wrote: Take your examples from other nationalised healthcare systems - have any of them implemented similar restrictions? I think you'll find not for the simple reason that the military is a law unto itself whereas a civilian service is accountable to the people it serves.
I know you hate hearing this, though not as much as gmc, but the US is not the UK. We are a different country, a different culture. Ours is a litigious society. Our fiscal priorities are vastly different.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:24 pm

Wandrin;1415702 wrote: I consider it to be highly unlikely that the US would adopt military procedures and disallow lawsuits for malpractice. Malpractice insurance for doctors and hospitals is very profitable for the insurance companies and they have an army of lobbyists in Washington to see that they get what they want. Malpractice lawsuits are highly profitable for lawyers and they also have a presence in Washington.

Congress doesn't even want to combine the two government-run healthcare services (Medicare and TriCare) and they definitely do not want their own health care (Federal Employees Healthcare) to become part of Medicare.

A friend asked me to check out her new doctor, awhile back. She found him to be "odd" and was surprised at the amount of Scientology magazines in the waiting room. A quick check of the state database revealed that he had had his license revoked for 5 years for inappropriate sexual contact with patients, now has a few dozen complaints filed for similar actions, and is currently being sued for malpractice.
It's already started, in the name of keeping medical costs low.

In Texas it's apparently not keeping costs down:

Tort Reform Limiting Medical Malpractice Awards in Texas: It Ain’t Workin’ | Rowley Chapman & Barney, Ltd. - JDSupra

But that hasn't stopped Washington from trying to follow suit:

House Passes Tort “Reform” Measure That Would Slash Recovery By Medical Malpractice Victims « JONATHAN TURLEY

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:44 pm

Accountable;1415788 wrote: It's already started, in the name of keeping medical costs low.

In Texas it's apparently not keeping costs down:

Tort Reform Limiting Medical Malpractice Awards in Texas: It Ain’t Workin’ | Rowley Chapman & Barney, Ltd. - JDSupra

But that hasn't stopped Washington from trying to follow suit:

House Passes Tort “Reform” Measure That Would Slash Recovery By Medical Malpractice Victims ï¿½ JONATHAN TURLEY

I must admit that I have been hearing "the right" talk about passing tort reform for years but wasn't aware that they were making any "progress" toward that goal. I assumed that the lobbyists would buy them off per usual.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:48 pm

Wandrin;1415791 wrote: I must admit that I have been hearing "the right" talk about passing tort reform for years but wasn't aware that they were making any "progress" toward that goal. I assumed that the lobbyists would buy them off per usual.the AMA has lobbyists, too, and medical insurers don't enjoy paying out punitive damages.

eta: Plus when Washington becomes the payer, you can be damn sure they're going to limit costs in every way possible.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:05 pm

Accountable;1415793 wrote: the AMA has lobbyists, too, and medical insurers don't enjoy paying out punitive damages.

True, but the medical insurers surely do like the fact that every doctor, hospital, and facility pays their insurance premiums. They are making tidy profits. You can be sure that if they were paying out anywhere near what they take in, the rates would go up, as with any insurance company.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:32 pm

Except that Washington will be the insurer, or at least they will be paying the bills..

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:09 pm

Accountable;1415800 wrote: Except that Washington will be the insurer, or at least they will be paying the bills..

I'm not convinced of that (yet). Even if they make moves in that direction (unlikely with the current congress), it is a long way away from adopting military rules for medical treatment.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:37 pm

Wandrin;1415802 wrote: I'm not convinced of that (yet). Even if they make moves in that direction (unlikely with the current congress), it is a long way away from adopting military rules for medical treatment.
What are you talking about?? If nationalization becomes a reality, the military rules will be the FIRST option, then maybe adjusting from that point.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:39 pm

Accountable;1415803 wrote: What are you talking about?? If nationalization becomes a reality, the military rules will be the FIRST option, then maybe adjusting from that point.

I respect your opinion. I simply choose to have a different opinion.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:51 pm

Wandrin;1415804 wrote: I respect your opinion. I simply choose to have a different opinion.
Okay, but from what I've seen of the UK and Japanese medical systems, the only difference between them and our military system is the malpractice bit, and IMO the only reason that is, is because the Brits and Japanese aren't as litigious as we are.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:10 pm

Accountable;1415807 wrote: Okay, but from what I've seen of the UK and Japanese medical systems, the only difference between them and our military system is the malpractice bit, and IMO the only reason that is, is because the Brits and Japanese aren't as litigious as we are.

If the US goes to a single payer system, I would hope that they would study the system used in Finland, who researched all of the existing systems before deciding on theirs. But I don't envision the change to a single payer system coming soon. The House seems intent on gutting Medicare while keeping their own taxpayer funded healthcare. I don't envision a sudden change in the political mess that would be required to make the change. Okay, maybe if Obama gave an interview at Fox and said that he was against it...

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:17 am

Accountable;1415785 wrote: I know you hate hearing this, though not as much as gmc, but the US is not the UK. We are a different country, a different culture. Ours is a litigious society. Our fiscal priorities are vastly different.

Don't worry, we're becoming much like you and people sue the NHS all the time - that was my point.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:31 am

Bryn Mawr;1415815 wrote: Don't worry, we're becoming much like you and people sue the NHS all the time - that was my point.
Anybody calling for tort reform yet? If not, watch for it soon.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:54 am

Wandrin;1415810 wrote: If the US goes to a single payer system, I would hope that they would study the system used in Finland, who researched all of the existing systems before deciding on theirs. You could say the same for the national education system. That hope didn't go very far, did it? Finland is a single homogeneous state smaller than Montana with a population around that of Colorado. I know that you nationalists are champing at the bit to pretend we're a European country, but the simple fact is that one size does not fit all. A national education system is killing our economy and innovation. A national medical system would collapse under its own weight, except the killing wouldn't be so metaphorical.

eta: New York City has 2 million more people than Finland.

Wandrin;1415810 wrote: But I don't envision the change to a single payer system coming soon. The House seems intent on gutting Medicare while keeping their own taxpayer funded healthcare. I don't envision a sudden change in the political mess that would be required to make the change. Okay, maybe if Obama gave an interview at Fox and said that he was against it...Interesting that you blame the repub House, partisan, when the dem Senate and dem president also happily participated in the cuts over a year ago.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:24 am

Accountable;1415826 wrote: Anybody calling for tort reform yet? If not, watch for it soon.

We wouldn't stand for that - peer pressure would be a more likely control mechanism but I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to cut in.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:45 pm

Bryn Mawr;1415880 wrote: We wouldn't stand for that
And we wouldn't stand for socializing our healthcare, limiting our gun rights, or being groped in public by federal agents without cause. You might be surprised how much abuse your public will stand for.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:28 pm

Accountable;1415828 wrote: You could say the same for the national education system. That hope didn't go very far, did it? Finland is a single homogeneous state smaller than Montana with a population around that of Colorado. I know that you nationalists are champing at the bit to pretend we're a European country, but the simple fact is that one size does not fit all. A national education system is killing our economy and innovation. A national medical system would collapse under its own weight, except the killing wouldn't be so metaphorical.

eta: New York City has 2 million more people than Finland.

Interesting that you blame the repub House, partisan, when the dem Senate and dem president also happily participated in the cuts over a year ago.

Forgive me for being less than clear. I think all of Congress needs lessons on how adults get things accomplished and stop behaving like spoiled little rich kids.

Where the heck did "you nationalists" come from? I guess I'm not communicating well at all.

And I agree that a national education system has failed, although I believe that it is primarily because the program they pushed is inferior. It was inferior way back when I was in school and has gotten worse even before they started teaching for the tests.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:58 pm

Wandrin;1415922 wrote: Forgive me for being less than clear. I think all of Congress needs lessons on how adults get things accomplished and stop behaving like spoiled little rich kids.

Where the heck did "you nationalists" come from? I guess I'm not communicating well at all.

And I agree that a national education system has failed, although I believe that it is primarily because the program they pushed is inferior. It was inferior way back when I was in school and has gotten worse even before they started teaching for the tests.
:yh_doh :yh_blush You're communicating just fine. It's me that's not reading right. I read back through your posts, and I realize you never actually indicated your opinion one way or the other concerning nationalizing these programs. I let my emotions see what wasn't there. I apologize for jumping the gun.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:19 pm

Accountable;1415959 wrote: :yh_doh :yh_blush You're communicating just fine. It's me that's not reading right. I read back through your posts, and I realize you never actually indicated your opinion one way or the other concerning nationalizing these programs. I let my emotions see what wasn't there. I apologize for jumping the gun.

No problem.