High School Student Sues against having to wear an RF ID Badge

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:05 am

This is in my city but a different school district. I was going to try to steer it toward the legal issues of the case, but figured I'd just toss it out raw instead, and respond later.

A federal judge Tuesday ruled that Northside Independent School District can transfer a student from her magnet school for refusing to wear her student ID badge to protest a new electronic tracking system.

Read more: Lawsuit against Northside ISD tracking system rejected - San Antonio Express-News

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:14 am

Is this the same girl that refused to accept a card without a photo as well? Sorry, I don't have time to read the article but if I recall, she's claiming these tracking devices are the mark of Satan or some other religious hogwash, right? So she's going to tie up the courts with a frivolous, religion-based suit. I'm disgusted by the whole thing.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:15 am

Seeing how freedom of religion is a protected right, it's the gov't that's tieing up the courts. What's the harm in letting her go without?

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:41 am

If you let one go without, then fairly you have to let them all go without. This, at a time when the public is screaming for more security at schools? It's nonsensical and illogical. Besides, how was this woman thinking she was going to get a driver's license?

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:57 am

There's a great piece written by Amy Gutmann called "Challenges of multiculturalism in democratic education".

How can a multicultural society educate its members for democracy? Many contemporary controversies about public schooling turn on the clash of two apparently competing educational aims: securing common values and respecting cultural differences. This chapter argues that democratic education can integrate both civic and multicultural aims, and not merely in a pragmatic compromise but in a genuinely principled combination. 7 - Challenges of multiculturalism in democratic education - University Publishing Online

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:58 am

Saint_;1416016 wrote: If you let one go without, then fairly you have to let them all go without. This, at a time when the public is screaming for more security at schools? It's nonsensical and illogical. Besides, how was this woman thinking she was going to get a driver's license?

Last I heard driving licenses didn't have tracking devices.Or, do they?

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:05 pm

I can claim Mondays are my high holy days and sue my employer for those days to be double overtime. Seriosly, its ridiculous to claim a magnetic strip is against her religion. Its more like an irratioal superstition.

And yes, drivers licenses now have chips in them.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:37 pm

SnoozeAgain;1416032 wrote: I can claim Mondays are my high holy days and sue my employer for those days to be double overtime. Seriosly, its ridiculous to claim a magnetic strip is against her religion. Its more like an irratioal superstition.

And yes, drivers licenses now have chips in them.

Drivers licenses have electronic tracking chips in them? I'll have to check this out.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:01 pm

Not just yet.

CNet News reports that New York state has begun offering enhanced driver's licenses embedded with radio frequency identification (RFID) chips, which can be read from a distance by a receiver device.

The new RFID driver's license, which will cost an additional $30 over the standard $50 licensing fee, will provide identification that can be used at the border in lieu of a U.S. passport, which these days is also RFID-equipped.
An RFID Tag in Your Driver's License? : Science Channel

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:10 pm

Accountable;1416036 wrote: Not just yet.

An RFID Tag in Your Driver's License? : Science Channel
Wow, thanks. I was having a helluva time trying to refute it. There are a lot of sites and forums that believe it has already been implemented. They recommend microwaving you DL to screw up the chip.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:20 pm

How about microchipping your firearms ?

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:24 pm

Bruv;1416038 wrote: How about microchipping your firearms ?

That might cause problems. If the wrong people got a hold of the information they would know where to go and steal whatever kind of gun they wanted, use it for whatever reason then dump it.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:26 pm

YZGI;1416040 wrote: That might cause problems. If the wrong people got a hold of the information they would know where to go and steal whatever kind of gun they wanted, use it for whatever reason then dump it.
So.......................... what about school children ?

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:32 pm

I'd be interested in knowing what the girl's career plans are, given her religious beliefs. If she won't be able to drive or work for companies that issue IDs, her options are limited. She would also have to do a lot of investigation to find a college that is acceptable to her beliefs. In clothes shopping, she would have to be very careful since RFID tags are becoming much more prevalent. She couldn't travel outside the US because of the passport. She couldn't have a cell phone, since those can be location traced. As the trend continues, she will find fewer and fewer areas of life that don't involve ID or traceability.

From the school's perspective, I could see how it would be beneficial to know where students are, especially during an emergency.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:21 pm

Bruv;1416041 wrote: So.......................... what about school children ?

I'm all for chipping school children's guns.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:39 pm

YZGI;1416026 wrote: Last I heard driving licenses didn't have tracking devices.Or, do they?

Well, she's against any state-sponsored identification (Mark of the Beast and all that) and doesn't like magnetic strips either. That's what I meant.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:44 pm

Saint_;1416050 wrote: Well, she's against any state-sponsored identification (Mark of the Beast and all that) and doesn't like magnetic strips either. That's what I meant.

It doesn't look as if it is too far off. The tracking that is.

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:31 pm

So is this something different?

Real ID deadlines looms | Homeland Security News Wire

I dunno if my driver's license has the chip but there are bar codes all over the back of it.

PS sorry for all the typos in my last post, it's difficult typing on my phone.

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:31 pm

It's too late folks. There are massive databases on all of us already.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:35 pm

Bruv;1416038 wrote: How about microchipping your firearms ?Please tell me why, in one of the gun threads.

Bruv;1416041 wrote: So.......................... what about school children ?
I have heard that some parents are chipping their kids just in case of kidnapping. I think it's a horrendous idea because of the future implications.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:46 pm

Wandrin;1416042 wrote: I'd be interested in knowing what the girl's career plans are, given her religious beliefs. If she won't be able to drive or work for companies that issue IDs, her options are limited. She would also have to do a lot of investigation to find a college that is acceptable to her beliefs. In clothes shopping, she would have to be very careful since RFID tags are becoming much more prevalent. She couldn't travel outside the US because of the passport. She couldn't have a cell phone, since those can be location traced. As the trend continues, she will find fewer and fewer areas of life that don't involve ID or traceability.

From the school's perspective, I could see how it would be beneficial to know where students are, especially during an emergency.
If the religion thing is real, she might be planning to marry and have a lot of kids. It's more likely she hasn't thought that far. It could be that she's trying to please psych-Christian Daddy. I remember, but I can't find any older news stories, that the original objection was to the chip, not the IDs. I suspect that the religion tack is a lawyer's tactic.

But isn't all that irrelevant when it comes to the question? Should a student be allowed a waiver to obey school policy because of religious reasons? I know many people reading this will be tempted to cook up some wild-ass extreme example, but please don't. She doesn't want to wear the ID. Is it that far-fetched? Should a Muslim girl be allowed to wear a burkha (or however you spell it) to school? Should a Jewish boy be allowed to wear his yamaka if the school doesn't allow hats? How about a sikh boy wearing a turban?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:53 pm

SnoozeAgain;1416053 wrote: So is this something different?

Real ID deadlines looms | Homeland Security News Wire

I dunno if my driver's license has the chip but there are bar codes all over the back of it.

PS sorry for all the typos in my last post, it's difficult typing on my phone.

According to the last couple of paragraphs, I think it's more the background checks & such required ... at least for now.

New Mexico has no prohibitions against compliance, but has been unable to revise state laws to meet the lawful presence requirements set by the federal driverâ€™s license rules. That's some scary sh!t there. I got chills reading that phrase.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:04 pm

Accountable;1416068 wrote:

But isn't all that irrelevant when it comes to the question? Should a student be allowed a waiver to obey school policy because of religious reasons? I know many people reading this will be tempted to cook up some wild-ass extreme example, but please don't. She doesn't want to wear the ID. Is it that far-fetched? Should a Muslim girl be allowed to wear a burkha (or however you spell it) to school? Should a Jewish boy be allowed to wear his yamaka if the school doesn't allow hats? How about a sikh boy wearing a turban?

I don't have any problem with the examples you presented. They seem to be perfectly reasonable exceptions. There are other cases where religion was used for less reasonable exceptions. There was a case a year or two ago in (or near) Gilroy, CA) where a student was asked to remove a T-shirt that basically said that all Muslims were going to hell. The school said it was offensive to other students and the students parents cried religious persecution. I don't consider that to be in the same category as a yamaka or Sikh turban.

Speaking of Sikhs, would you consider the kirpan (ceremonial dagger worn by baptized Sikhs) a reasonable religious exception to the school dress code?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:37 am

Wandrin;1416076 wrote: I don't have any problem with the examples you presented. They seem to be perfectly reasonable exceptions. There are other cases where religion was used for less reasonable exceptions. There was a case a year or two ago in (or near) Gilroy, CA) where a student was asked to remove a T-shirt that basically said that all Muslims were going to hell. The school said it was offensive to other students and the students parents cried religious persecution. I don't consider that to be in the same category as a yamaka or Sikh turban.So which category does this girl & the ID issue fall into - innocuous hat or offensive T-shirt? For me, it would be more with the hats, because the T-shirt was an expression against another religion, as opposed to a "Jesus Saves" t-shirt, for example.

Wandrin;1416076 wrote: Speaking of Sikhs, would you consider the kirpan (ceremonial dagger worn by baptized Sikhs) a reasonable religious exception to the school dress code?Yeh, that came up some years back. Those are real blades - sharp. If it was an all-Sikh school (or even if it was mostly Sikh) then I would probably argue to allow it. But since there is a danger for violence & injury - not from the Sikh, but from others who might not respect the symbolism stealing and using the dagger - then I would reluctantly argue against allowing it.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:37 am

Instead of assuming this girl wants public notoriety, for whatever reason, why not look at her objections from a social point of view?

To object to the chip would be the equivalent to objecting to the contentedness of society doing nothing to prevent an obvious problem. To place chips on ID badges does nothing but relieve the symptoms as opposed to curing the disease.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:38 pm

K.Snyder;1416086 wrote: Instead of assuming this girl wants public notoriety, for whatever reason, why not look at her objections from a social point of view?

To object to the chip would be the equivalent to objecting to the contentedness of society doing nothing to prevent an obvious problem. To place chips on ID badges does nothing but relieve the symptoms as opposed to curing the disease.
The argument being presented on her behalf is wholly religious.

But your claim is interesting. What is the disease and what are the symptoms being relieved?

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:11 pm

Accountable;1416108 wrote: The argument being presented on her behalf is wholly religious.

But your claim is interesting. What is the disease and what are the symptoms being relieved?The disease is a particular neglect of our family institutions and the symptoms being relieved is expecting that we can monitor our children in similar ways as opposed to our ability to appeal to them in ways that highlights the importance of an education. An education that broadens their sensibilities and their desire to strive for the higher values in their lives that presuppose civic duty and eventually the civic unity needed to perpetuate the peace any rational human being aspires for.

Amy Gutmann's "Challenges of multiculturalism in democratic education" is more than worth a read. I have it in a document file. If anyone is interested in reading it just PM me.

Wandrin · Post by **Wandrin** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:35 pm

Accountable;1416080 wrote: So which category does this girl & the ID issue fall into - innocuous hat or offensive T-shirt? For me, it would be more with the hats, because the T-shirt was an expression against another religion, as opposed to a "Jesus Saves" t-shirt, for example.

It all depends on the purpose of the ID. If it is designed simply to take attendance and make sure students are sneaking out for a smoke, then the school doesn't really have much of a case. However if the ID is tied to the school's security system so only students and faculty can gain entry to the school, or is part of the emergency preparedness in the case of a Sandy Hook type incident, then it becomes a school safety issue.

Accountable;1416080 wrote:

Yeh, that came up some years back. Those are real blades - sharp. If it was an all-Sikh school (or even if it was mostly Sikh) then I would probably argue to allow it. But since there is a danger for violence & injury - not from the Sikh, but from others who might not respect the symbolism stealing and using the dagger - then I would reluctantly argue against allowing it.

I agree with you.

There was an interesting case when I was in elementary school, back when both the Lord's Prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance were mandatory at the start of each day. A student transferred to the school and his branch of Christianity forbade him to swear an oath to any secular institution. The homeroom teacher mishandled it badly. She would loudly proclaim, "Anyone who does not love America or feel loyal to it must now leave the room" (or similar words) and would send the poor kid to go stand in the hallway until the pledge was completed. Needless to say, this approached caused problems for the kid and made him the target of bullying.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:16 pm

Wandrin;1416188 wrote: It all depends on the purpose of the ID. If it is designed simply to take attendance and make sure students are sneaking out for a smoke, then the school doesn't really have much of a case. However if the ID is tied to the school's security system so only students and faculty can gain entry to the school, or is part of the emergency preparedness in the case of a Sandy Hook type incident, then it becomes a school safety issue.I'd initially disagreed. Reasoning: The intent is irrelevant. I eat pork and only intend for it to be used for nutrition, but my intent plays no part in a Jew's or Muslim's prohibition on eating with me. Just as the intent of the dagger wasn't relevant.

But I see your point about the locks. See, where I have the issue is with the card itself. Sure, complain about the RD thingie if you want to, but once that's gone, so it your complaint. If it is about some kind of number, then an RF ID without a number printed on it should suffice. If it is a key as you describe, carry it in your pocket insteead of displaying it. There are many ways to adjust and still maintain order.

Wandrin;1416188 wrote: There was an interesting case when I was in elementary school, back when both the Lord's Prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance were mandatory at the start of each day. A student transferred to the school and his branch of Christianity forbade him to swear an oath to any secular institution. The homeroom teacher mishandled it badly. She would loudly proclaim, "Anyone who does not love America or feel loyal to it must now leave the room" (or similar words) and would send the poor kid to go stand in the hallway until the pledge was completed. Needless to say, this approached caused problems for the kid and made him the target of bullying.
Yeh, she was an idiot. Some teachers even today try to make an issue of it. I choose to keep a passive face and say "okay". If the student was only looking for attention (as has been the case about half the time) then his show disappeared and his only choice was to fit in or not. If not, then the kid did what he felt was right and was accepted. I have yet to have other students say "Well if he ain't standin' I ain't either!" No, most adapt to the teacher's expectation, no matter what it is.