Columbine
Columbine
Columbine
Guess our national leaders didn't expect this. On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful.
They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript:
"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good &evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers.
"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used.. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart.
"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent.
I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy -- it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best.
Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You've stripped away our heritage,
You've outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question "Why?"
You regulate restrictive laws,
Through legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need!
"Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs -- politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts.
"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes, he did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America , and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA -- I give to you a sincere challenge.. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone!
My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!"
- Darrell Scott
Truth Frees! Evolution is evidence free speculation masquerading as science.
Columbine
He's obviously a very hurt man. Sorry for his loss.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Columbine
So stricter gun regulations aren't needed, prayer in school is. Alright then.
Columbine
SnoozeAgain;1418415 wrote: So stricter gun regulations aren't needed, prayer in school is. Alright then.
Specifically prayer to his god.
Specifically prayer to his god.
Columbine
Praying isn't going to stop a freaking killer. Hell, religion is responsible for some of the most atrocious acts of mankind I can think of. Religion is a tool used to manipulate idiots into killing one another. Keep in mind, the Jihadists we support in Syria as we speak tell mothers to leave their homes or be killed because they're soldiers of god.
F**k religion and all to do with it.
F**k religion and all to do with it.
Columbine
Scrat;1418418 wrote: Praying isn't going to stop a freaking killer. Hell, religion is responsible for some of the most atrocious acts of mankind I can think of. Religion is a tool used to manipulate idiots into killing one another. Keep in mind, the Jihadists we support in Syria as we speak tell mothers to leave their homes or be killed because they're soldiers of god.
F**k religion and all to do with it.
Atheists and secularists love to trot out the canard that religion has harmed more people than it has helped, and has been at the root of many or most world concflicts. However, in Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history, Dinesh D'Souza, Rishwain Fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford, argues that actually, atheism is responsible for more murders in history. His points are summarized below.
The familiar accusation: "The Crusades slaughtered millions in the name of Jesus. The Inquisition brought the torture and murder of millions more. After Martin Luther, Christians did bloody battle with other Christians for another three centuries."
Ignoring the crimes of atheism - "The problem with this critique is that it exaggerates the crimes attributed to religion, while ignoring the greater crimes of secular fanaticism."
How many killed?
Salem Witch Trials (25)
Crusades (10,000 to 100,000) - note that the Crusades were most likely a justified defensive war after 400 years of Muslim aggression, and were not used to spread Christianity or take revenge, but to free captured lands from Muslim oppression.
Atheism (>100 MILLION) - at the hands of the militant anti-religious atheists Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong.
Many wars attributed to religion are not religious in nature - "Moreover, many of the conflicts that are counted as "religious wars" were not fought over religion. They were mainly fought over rival claims to territory and power.... Ethnic rivalry, not religion, is the source of the tension in Northern Ireland and the Balkans [for example]"
Nazism often mistakenly characterized as Christian - "Dawkins and Harris cannot explain why, if Nazism was directly descended from medieval Christianity, medieval Christianity did not produce a Hitler. How can a self-proclaimed atheist ideology, advanced by Hitler as a repudiation of Christianity, be a "culmination" of 2,000 years of Christianity? Dawkins and Harris are employing a transparent sleight of hand that holds Christianity responsible for the crimes committed in its name, while exonerating secularism and atheism for the greater crimes committed in their name."
NOTE: Also, despite the cries of revisionism, I think the recent books and TV specials linking social Darwinism, and by extension, evolutionary thinking, as the scientific underpinnings of the eugenics practiced by Hitler is worth investigating. Rather than being Christian in nature, Hitler's revolution is more probably linked with the pseudo-science of Darwinism - but that's a separate discussion. See:
From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany
The Nazi Connection: Eugenics, American Racism, and German National Socialism
Evolution’s Fatal Fruit
From Darwin’s Theory to Hitler’s Holocaust
Darwin’s Deadly Legacy
Darwin at Nurenberg, Part I, Part II
Darwinism and the Nazi Race Holocaust
Religious fanatics commit evil in religion's name, but Jesus' teaching stand as a rebuke to such, not a support - "Religious fanatics have done things that are impossible to defend, and some of them, mostly in the Muslim world, are still performing horrors in the name of their creed. But if religion sometimes disposes people to self-righteousness and absolutism, it also provides a moral code that condemns the slaughter of innocents. In particular, the moral teachings of Jesus provide no support for - indeed they stand as a stern rebuke to - the historical injustices perpetrated in the name of Christianity."
If God is not, everything is permitted - The crimes of atheism have generally been perpetrated through a hubristic ideology that sees man, not God, as the creator of values. Using the latest techniques of science and technology, man seeks to displace God and create a secular utopia here on earth. Of course if some people - the Jews, the landowners, the unfit, or the handicapped - have to be eliminated in order to achieve this utopia, this is a price the atheist tyrants and their apologists have shown themselves quite willing to pay. Thus they confirm the truth of Fyodor Dostoyevsky's dictum, "If God is not, everything is permitted."
The long and short of it? It is the fallenness and wickedness of man that creates wars. Abusing faith, or being rooted in false and evil religions like (militant) Islam, people do evil in *spite* of God. And those who reject God with the bathwater of man's religious evil fall into their own trap - depending entirely on mankind for morality, they fall prey to their own fallenness, fulfilling the dictum "ultimate power corrupts ultimately." Man needs God to keep from self-deception and selfish or misguided justifications for doing evil.
"Whatever the motives for atheist bloodthirstiness, the indisputable fact is that all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades. It's time to abandon the mindlessly repeated mantra that religious belief has been the greatest source of human conflict and violence. Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history."
The historical fact is that, whenever atheism has had it's day, it has produced murder, despite what generous and kind atheists like to say. This is not because atheists are any more sinful than anyone else, nor do they usually set out to murder. They set out to make the world better. But, their own hatred for God and sinful nature eventually take over. I'm not sure why this is, but I suspect that some of it is because, without God, there is no real reason to sacrifice for others or do good. In fact, you more likely would end up with a Randian [Ian Rand] utopia where the weak and helpless who can't do for themselves are left to die so that the strong may carry on.
http://www.wholereason.com/2011/01/athe ... ities.html
F**k religion and all to do with it.
Atheists and secularists love to trot out the canard that religion has harmed more people than it has helped, and has been at the root of many or most world concflicts. However, in Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history, Dinesh D'Souza, Rishwain Fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford, argues that actually, atheism is responsible for more murders in history. His points are summarized below.
The familiar accusation: "The Crusades slaughtered millions in the name of Jesus. The Inquisition brought the torture and murder of millions more. After Martin Luther, Christians did bloody battle with other Christians for another three centuries."
Ignoring the crimes of atheism - "The problem with this critique is that it exaggerates the crimes attributed to religion, while ignoring the greater crimes of secular fanaticism."
How many killed?
Salem Witch Trials (25)
Crusades (10,000 to 100,000) - note that the Crusades were most likely a justified defensive war after 400 years of Muslim aggression, and were not used to spread Christianity or take revenge, but to free captured lands from Muslim oppression.
Atheism (>100 MILLION) - at the hands of the militant anti-religious atheists Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong.
Many wars attributed to religion are not religious in nature - "Moreover, many of the conflicts that are counted as "religious wars" were not fought over religion. They were mainly fought over rival claims to territory and power.... Ethnic rivalry, not religion, is the source of the tension in Northern Ireland and the Balkans [for example]"
Nazism often mistakenly characterized as Christian - "Dawkins and Harris cannot explain why, if Nazism was directly descended from medieval Christianity, medieval Christianity did not produce a Hitler. How can a self-proclaimed atheist ideology, advanced by Hitler as a repudiation of Christianity, be a "culmination" of 2,000 years of Christianity? Dawkins and Harris are employing a transparent sleight of hand that holds Christianity responsible for the crimes committed in its name, while exonerating secularism and atheism for the greater crimes committed in their name."
NOTE: Also, despite the cries of revisionism, I think the recent books and TV specials linking social Darwinism, and by extension, evolutionary thinking, as the scientific underpinnings of the eugenics practiced by Hitler is worth investigating. Rather than being Christian in nature, Hitler's revolution is more probably linked with the pseudo-science of Darwinism - but that's a separate discussion. See:
From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany
The Nazi Connection: Eugenics, American Racism, and German National Socialism
Evolution’s Fatal Fruit
From Darwin’s Theory to Hitler’s Holocaust
Darwin’s Deadly Legacy
Darwin at Nurenberg, Part I, Part II
Darwinism and the Nazi Race Holocaust
Religious fanatics commit evil in religion's name, but Jesus' teaching stand as a rebuke to such, not a support - "Religious fanatics have done things that are impossible to defend, and some of them, mostly in the Muslim world, are still performing horrors in the name of their creed. But if religion sometimes disposes people to self-righteousness and absolutism, it also provides a moral code that condemns the slaughter of innocents. In particular, the moral teachings of Jesus provide no support for - indeed they stand as a stern rebuke to - the historical injustices perpetrated in the name of Christianity."
If God is not, everything is permitted - The crimes of atheism have generally been perpetrated through a hubristic ideology that sees man, not God, as the creator of values. Using the latest techniques of science and technology, man seeks to displace God and create a secular utopia here on earth. Of course if some people - the Jews, the landowners, the unfit, or the handicapped - have to be eliminated in order to achieve this utopia, this is a price the atheist tyrants and their apologists have shown themselves quite willing to pay. Thus they confirm the truth of Fyodor Dostoyevsky's dictum, "If God is not, everything is permitted."
The long and short of it? It is the fallenness and wickedness of man that creates wars. Abusing faith, or being rooted in false and evil religions like (militant) Islam, people do evil in *spite* of God. And those who reject God with the bathwater of man's religious evil fall into their own trap - depending entirely on mankind for morality, they fall prey to their own fallenness, fulfilling the dictum "ultimate power corrupts ultimately." Man needs God to keep from self-deception and selfish or misguided justifications for doing evil.
"Whatever the motives for atheist bloodthirstiness, the indisputable fact is that all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades. It's time to abandon the mindlessly repeated mantra that religious belief has been the greatest source of human conflict and violence. Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history."
The historical fact is that, whenever atheism has had it's day, it has produced murder, despite what generous and kind atheists like to say. This is not because atheists are any more sinful than anyone else, nor do they usually set out to murder. They set out to make the world better. But, their own hatred for God and sinful nature eventually take over. I'm not sure why this is, but I suspect that some of it is because, without God, there is no real reason to sacrifice for others or do good. In fact, you more likely would end up with a Randian [Ian Rand] utopia where the weak and helpless who can't do for themselves are left to die so that the strong may carry on.
http://www.wholereason.com/2011/01/athe ... ities.html
Truth Frees! Evolution is evidence free speculation masquerading as science.
Columbine
Doing that copy/paste thing again huh, Peehu.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Columbine
Pahu;1418548 wrote: Crusades (10,000 to 100,000) - note that the Crusades were most likely a justified defensive war after 400 years of Muslim aggression, and were not used to spread Christianity or take revenge, but to free captured lands from Muslim oppression.
Got any proof of this? From all the versions I've read, Saladin was quite merciful when he defeated the Christians. Can't say the same for Richard the Lionhearted.
Got any proof of this? From all the versions I've read, Saladin was quite merciful when he defeated the Christians. Can't say the same for Richard the Lionhearted.
Columbine
This Columbine glurge has been circulating since 1999. What took you so long to catch up, peehu? :wah:
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Columbine
What is depressing is the number of people whop seem to believe that nonsense, makes one wonder if they have studied any history for themselves. Read mein kampf pahu hitler makes it quite clear where his hatred of the jews comes.
Stalin and mao may or may have been atheists but they did not kill people in the name of atheism. An atheist is someone who does not believe in god not a member of another kuind of religion.
There were characters like hitler before the 20th century what thwey didn't have was the industrial means of warfare and mass genocide they did it the old fashioned way one at a time. Ever heard of manifest destiny? As an american you should know about that are you going to claim that was atheism as well?
“I don't see much future for the Americans ... it's a decayed country. And they have their racial problem, and the problem of social inequalities ... my feelings against Americanism are feelings of hatred and deep repugnance ... everything about the behaviour of American society reveals that it's half Judaised, and the other half negrified. How can one expect a State like that to hold together?
• Adolf Hitler, Hitler's Secret Conversations, 1941-1944
Stalin and mao may or may have been atheists but they did not kill people in the name of atheism. An atheist is someone who does not believe in god not a member of another kuind of religion.
There were characters like hitler before the 20th century what thwey didn't have was the industrial means of warfare and mass genocide they did it the old fashioned way one at a time. Ever heard of manifest destiny? As an american you should know about that are you going to claim that was atheism as well?
“I don't see much future for the Americans ... it's a decayed country. And they have their racial problem, and the problem of social inequalities ... my feelings against Americanism are feelings of hatred and deep repugnance ... everything about the behaviour of American society reveals that it's half Judaised, and the other half negrified. How can one expect a State like that to hold together?
• Adolf Hitler, Hitler's Secret Conversations, 1941-1944
Columbine
gmc;1418850 wrote: What is depressing is the number of people whop seem to believe that nonsense, makes one wonder if they have studied any history for themselves. Read mein kampf pahu hitler makes it quite clear where his hatred of the jews comes.
Stalin and mao may or may have been atheists but they did not kill people in the name of atheism. An atheist is someone who does not believe in god not a member of another kuind of religion.
There were characters like hitler before the 20th century what thwey didn't have was the industrial means of warfare and mass genocide they did it the old fashioned way one at a time. Ever heard of manifest destiny? As an american you should know about that are you going to claim that was atheism as well?
I agree that the worldview of atheism rarely results in murder. Most atheists are decent, law-abiding members of society. But their worldview lacks an absolute moral code and is therefore subject to arbitrary change on a whim.
The Bible worldview has an unchanging, absolute moral code, which prevents Christians from committing murder under any circumstance. The Columbine killers were atheist who believed in evolution. Had they been Christians there would have been no murder.
Stalin and mao may or may have been atheists but they did not kill people in the name of atheism. An atheist is someone who does not believe in god not a member of another kuind of religion.
There were characters like hitler before the 20th century what thwey didn't have was the industrial means of warfare and mass genocide they did it the old fashioned way one at a time. Ever heard of manifest destiny? As an american you should know about that are you going to claim that was atheism as well?
I agree that the worldview of atheism rarely results in murder. Most atheists are decent, law-abiding members of society. But their worldview lacks an absolute moral code and is therefore subject to arbitrary change on a whim.
The Bible worldview has an unchanging, absolute moral code, which prevents Christians from committing murder under any circumstance. The Columbine killers were atheist who believed in evolution. Had they been Christians there would have been no murder.
Truth Frees! Evolution is evidence free speculation masquerading as science.
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AnneBoleyn
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Columbine
The Bible worldview has an unchanging, absolute moral code, which prevents Christians from committing murder under any circumstance
I'm sorry, but I must ask you Pahu: Have you been living under a rock?
I'm sorry, but I must ask you Pahu: Have you been living under a rock?
Columbine
Pahu;1419096 wrote: I agree that the worldview of atheism rarely results in murder. Most atheists are decent, law-abiding members of society. But their worldview lacks an absolute moral code and is therefore subject to arbitrary change on a whim.
The Bible worldview has an unchanging, absolute moral code, which prevents Christians from committing murder under any circumstance. The Columbine killers were atheist who believed in evolution. Had they been Christians there would have been no murder.
Have you read the old testament and the new testament? An eye for an eye is not the same as forgive those who trespass against you. In an absolute moral code there is no room for mercy or mitigating circumstances or even trial by jury that comes from non religious secular society that couldn't stomach an absolute moral code that condemns without respect for human rights. Slavery, for instance is approved of in the bible and was endorsed by the church as god's will. Anyone who believes the bible is the unchanging word of god hasn't IMO studied the bible and it's history. It's no secret you can go and look at what was kept in and what removed and why they did it.
You obviously have no notion of the number of atrocities committed by Christians on fellow Christians and on anyone else they thought deserved it - or perhaps you think it was god's will they were carrying out.
Then Japanese weren't atheists how do you explain their behaviour?
The theory of evolution is a scientific theory - a scientific theory is simply the best explanation available consistent with current scientific knowledge not yet disproved by experiment. It is not an never has been an article of faith. Prove it wrong if you can so long as you can do so logically then you have a case.
Where do you stand on gravitational theory? That too is a scientific theory Do you believe in intelligent falling or does the earth suck. How about flight, ever been on a plane? What do you think happens of you don't believe in the science behind an aeroplane flying.
What is this world-view of atheism you think exists? An atheist is simply someone who doesn't believe in a super being. That's it that's all they have in common. Just because you can't conceive someone can exist and function without religious faith doesn't mean they have to believe in something else and need to follow some kind of world-view someone else has constructed for them.
The Bible worldview has an unchanging, absolute moral code, which prevents Christians from committing murder under any circumstance. The Columbine killers were atheist who believed in evolution. Had they been Christians there would have been no murder.
Have you read the old testament and the new testament? An eye for an eye is not the same as forgive those who trespass against you. In an absolute moral code there is no room for mercy or mitigating circumstances or even trial by jury that comes from non religious secular society that couldn't stomach an absolute moral code that condemns without respect for human rights. Slavery, for instance is approved of in the bible and was endorsed by the church as god's will. Anyone who believes the bible is the unchanging word of god hasn't IMO studied the bible and it's history. It's no secret you can go and look at what was kept in and what removed and why they did it.
You obviously have no notion of the number of atrocities committed by Christians on fellow Christians and on anyone else they thought deserved it - or perhaps you think it was god's will they were carrying out.
Then Japanese weren't atheists how do you explain their behaviour?
The theory of evolution is a scientific theory - a scientific theory is simply the best explanation available consistent with current scientific knowledge not yet disproved by experiment. It is not an never has been an article of faith. Prove it wrong if you can so long as you can do so logically then you have a case.
Where do you stand on gravitational theory? That too is a scientific theory Do you believe in intelligent falling or does the earth suck. How about flight, ever been on a plane? What do you think happens of you don't believe in the science behind an aeroplane flying.
What is this world-view of atheism you think exists? An atheist is simply someone who doesn't believe in a super being. That's it that's all they have in common. Just because you can't conceive someone can exist and function without religious faith doesn't mean they have to believe in something else and need to follow some kind of world-view someone else has constructed for them.
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Accountable
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Columbine
Pahu;1419096 wrote: The Bible worldview has an unchanging, absolute moral code, which prevents Christians from committing murder under any circumstance.
Except for little ones, like the Crusades, The Inquisition (what a show!), Salem Witch trials, ....
Except for little ones, like the Crusades, The Inquisition (what a show!), Salem Witch trials, ....
Columbine
gmc;1419102 wrote: Have you read the old testament and the new testament? An eye for an eye is not the same as forgive those who trespass against you.
God says we are to forgive those who repent of their transgressions.
An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth,¨(Exodus 21:24 ). This is "lex talionis", the "law of retaliation"; which, whether it is to be understood literally, or not, is a matter of question. The Baithuseans, or Sadducees, among the Jews, took it in a literal sense, and so does Josephus, who says, he that shall blind, i.e. put out a man's eyes, shall suffer the like. But the Jewish doctors generally understood it of paying a price equivalent to the damage done, except in case of life. R. Sol. Jarchi explains the law thus:
“He that puts out his neighbour's eye, must give him (wnye) (ymd) , ‘the price of his eye’, according to the price of a servant sold in the market; and so the same of them all; for, not taking away of the member is strictly meant.''
Now our Lord here, does not find fault with the law of retaliation, as delivered by Moses, but with the false gloss of the Scribes and Pharisees; who, as they interpreted it of pecuniary mulcts, as a compensation for the loss of a member, which sometimes exceeded all just and due bounds; so they applied it to private revenge, and in favor of it: whereas this law did not allow of a retaliation to be made, by private persons, at their pleasure, but by the civil magistrate only.
Matthew 5:38 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
In an absolute moral code there is no room for mercy or mitigating circumstances or even trial by jury that comes from non religious secular society that couldn't stomach an absolute moral code that condemns without respect for human rights.
Our founders used the Bible as their guide in writing our Constitution, because they were all Christians. The notion the Bible lacks mitigating circumstances or trial by jury is false. An absolute moral code is essential for a stable society, otherwise you have anarchy, with everyone doing what he feels is right in his own mind (Judges 17:6).
Slavery, for instance is approved of in the bible and was endorsed by the church as god's will.
Every Israelite was freeborn; but slavery was permitted under certain restrictions. A Hebrew might be made a slave through poverty, debt, or crime; but at the end of six years he was entitled to freedom, and his wife, if she had voluntarily shared his state of bondage, also obtained release. Should he, however, have married a female slave, she and the children, after the husband’s liberation, remained the master’s property; and if, through attachment to his family, the Hebrew chose to forfeit his privilege and abide as he was, a formal process was gone through in a public court, and a brand of servitude stamped on his ear (Ps 40:6) for life, or at least till the Jubilee (De 15:17).
Hebrew girls might be redeemed for a reasonable sum. But in the event of her parents or friends being unable to pay the redemption money, her owner was not at liberty to sell her elsewhere. Should she have been betrothed to him or his son, and either change their minds, maintenance must be provided for her suitable to her condition as his intended wife, or her freedom instantly granted.
Slaves also played a significant part in the New Testament society. There were several million of them in the Roman Empire at this time. Because many slaves and owners had become Christians, the early church had to deal straightforwardly with the question of master/slave relations. Paul’s statements neither condemn nor condone slavery. Instead, they tell masters and slaves how to live together in Christian households. In Paul’s day, women, children, and slaves had few rights. In the church, however, they had freedoms that society denied them. Paul tells husbands, parents, and masters to be caring.
Anyone who believes the bible is the unchanging word of god hasn't IMO studied the bible and it's history. It's no secret you can go and look at what was kept in and what removed and why they did it.
It is a secret to me. What do you think was kept in and what removed and why they did it?
[continue]
God says we are to forgive those who repent of their transgressions.
An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth,¨(Exodus 21:24 ). This is "lex talionis", the "law of retaliation"; which, whether it is to be understood literally, or not, is a matter of question. The Baithuseans, or Sadducees, among the Jews, took it in a literal sense, and so does Josephus, who says, he that shall blind, i.e. put out a man's eyes, shall suffer the like. But the Jewish doctors generally understood it of paying a price equivalent to the damage done, except in case of life. R. Sol. Jarchi explains the law thus:
“He that puts out his neighbour's eye, must give him (wnye) (ymd) , ‘the price of his eye’, according to the price of a servant sold in the market; and so the same of them all; for, not taking away of the member is strictly meant.''
Now our Lord here, does not find fault with the law of retaliation, as delivered by Moses, but with the false gloss of the Scribes and Pharisees; who, as they interpreted it of pecuniary mulcts, as a compensation for the loss of a member, which sometimes exceeded all just and due bounds; so they applied it to private revenge, and in favor of it: whereas this law did not allow of a retaliation to be made, by private persons, at their pleasure, but by the civil magistrate only.
Matthew 5:38 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
In an absolute moral code there is no room for mercy or mitigating circumstances or even trial by jury that comes from non religious secular society that couldn't stomach an absolute moral code that condemns without respect for human rights.
Our founders used the Bible as their guide in writing our Constitution, because they were all Christians. The notion the Bible lacks mitigating circumstances or trial by jury is false. An absolute moral code is essential for a stable society, otherwise you have anarchy, with everyone doing what he feels is right in his own mind (Judges 17:6).
Slavery, for instance is approved of in the bible and was endorsed by the church as god's will.
Every Israelite was freeborn; but slavery was permitted under certain restrictions. A Hebrew might be made a slave through poverty, debt, or crime; but at the end of six years he was entitled to freedom, and his wife, if she had voluntarily shared his state of bondage, also obtained release. Should he, however, have married a female slave, she and the children, after the husband’s liberation, remained the master’s property; and if, through attachment to his family, the Hebrew chose to forfeit his privilege and abide as he was, a formal process was gone through in a public court, and a brand of servitude stamped on his ear (Ps 40:6) for life, or at least till the Jubilee (De 15:17).
Hebrew girls might be redeemed for a reasonable sum. But in the event of her parents or friends being unable to pay the redemption money, her owner was not at liberty to sell her elsewhere. Should she have been betrothed to him or his son, and either change their minds, maintenance must be provided for her suitable to her condition as his intended wife, or her freedom instantly granted.
Slaves also played a significant part in the New Testament society. There were several million of them in the Roman Empire at this time. Because many slaves and owners had become Christians, the early church had to deal straightforwardly with the question of master/slave relations. Paul’s statements neither condemn nor condone slavery. Instead, they tell masters and slaves how to live together in Christian households. In Paul’s day, women, children, and slaves had few rights. In the church, however, they had freedoms that society denied them. Paul tells husbands, parents, and masters to be caring.
Anyone who believes the bible is the unchanging word of god hasn't IMO studied the bible and it's history. It's no secret you can go and look at what was kept in and what removed and why they did it.
It is a secret to me. What do you think was kept in and what removed and why they did it?
[continue]
Truth Frees! Evolution is evidence free speculation masquerading as science.
Columbine
gmc;1419102 wrote:
You obviously have no notion of the number of atrocities committed by Christians on fellow Christians and on anyone else they thought deserved it - or perhaps you think it was god's will they were carrying out.
[continued]
When I speak of Christians, I am speaking of those who do what Jesus tells them to do. Obviously, He never told anyone to commit atrocities. However:
Atheists and secularists love to trot out the canard that religion has harmed more people than it has helped, and has been at the root of many or most world concflicts. However, in Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history, Dinesh D'Souza, Rishwain Fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford, argues that actually, atheism is responsible for more murders in history. His points are summarized below.
The familiar accusation: "The Crusades slaughtered millions in the name of Jesus. The Inquisition brought the torture and murder of millions more. After Martin Luther, Christians did bloody battle with other Christians for another three centuries."
Ignoring the crimes of atheism - "The problem with this critique is that it exaggerates the crimes attributed to religion, while ignoring the greater crimes of secular fanaticism."
How many killed?
Salem Witch Trials (25)
Crusades (10,000 to 100,000) - note that the Crusades were most likely a justified defensive war after 400 years of Muslim aggression, and were not used to spread Christianity or take revenge, but to free captured lands from Muslim oppression.
Atheism (>100 MILLION) - at the hands of the militant anti-religious atheists Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong.
Many wars attributed to religion are not religious in nature - "Moreover, many of the conflicts that are counted as "religious wars" were not fought over religion. They were mainly fought over rival claims to territory and power.... Ethnic rivalry, not religion, is the source of the tension in Northern Ireland and the Balkans [for example]"
Nazism often mistakenly characterized as Christian - "Dawkins and Harris cannot explain why, if Nazism was directly descended from medieval Christianity, medieval Christianity did not produce a Hitler. How can a self-proclaimed atheist ideology, advanced by Hitler as a repudiation of Christianity, be a "culmination" of 2,000 years of Christianity? Dawkins and Harris are employing a transparent sleight of hand that holds Christianity responsible for the crimes committed in its name, while exonerating secularism and atheism for the greater crimes committed in their name."
NOTE: Also, despite the cries of revisionism, I think the recent books and TV specials linking social Darwinism, and by extension, evolutionary thinking, as the scientific underpinnings of the eugenics practiced by Hitler is worth investigating. Rather than being Christian in nature, Hitler's revolution is more probably linked with the pseudo-science of Darwinism - but that's a separate discussion. See:
From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany
The Nazi Connection: Eugenics, American Racism, and German National Socialism
Evolution’s Fatal Fruit
From Darwin’s Theory to Hitler’s Holocaust
Darwin’s Deadly Legacy
Darwin at Nurenberg, Part I, Part II
Darwinism and the Nazi Race Holocaust
Religious fanatics commit evil in religion's name, but Jesus' teaching stand as a rebuke to such, not a support - "Religious fanatics have done things that are impossible to defend, and some of them, mostly in the Muslim world, are still performing horrors in the name of their creed. But if religion sometimes disposes people to self-righteousness and absolutism, it also provides a moral code that condemns the slaughter of innocents. In particular, the moral teachings of Jesus provide no support for - indeed they stand as a stern rebuke to - the historical injustices perpetrated in the name of Christianity."
If God is not, everything is permitted - The crimes of atheism have generally been perpetrated through a hubristic ideology that sees man, not God, as the creator of values. Using the latest techniques of science and technology, man seeks to displace God and create a secular utopia here on earth. Of course if some people - the Jews, the landowners, the unfit, or the handicapped - have to be eliminated in order to achieve this utopia, this is a price the atheist tyrants and their apologists have shown themselves quite willing to pay. Thus they confirm the truth of Fyodor Dostoyevsky's dictum, "If God is not, everything is permitted."
The long and short of it? It is the fallenness and wickedness of man that creates wars. Abusing faith, or being rooted in false and evil religions like (militant) Islam, people do evil in *spite* of God. And those who reject God with the bathwater of man's religious evil fall into their own trap - depending entirely on mankind for morality, they fall prey to their own fallenness, fulfilling the dictum "ultimate power corrupts ultimately." Man needs God to keep from self-deception and selfish or misguided justifications for doing evil.
"Whatever the motives for atheist bloodthirstiness, the indisputable fact is that all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades. It's time to abandon the mindlessly repeated mantra that religious belief has been the greatest source of human conflict and violence. Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history."
The historical fact is that, whenever atheism has had it's day, it has produced murder, despite what generous and kind atheists like to say. This is not because atheists are any more sinful than anyone else, nor do they usually set out to murder. They set out to make the world better. But, their own hatred for God and sinful nature eventually take over. I'm not sure why this is, but I suspect that some of it is because, without God, there is no real reason to sacrifice for others or do good. In fact, you more likely would end up with a Randian [Ian Rand] utopia where the weak and helpless who can't do for themselves are left to die so that the strong may carry on.
http://www.wholereason.com/2011/01/athe ... ities.html
[continue]
You obviously have no notion of the number of atrocities committed by Christians on fellow Christians and on anyone else they thought deserved it - or perhaps you think it was god's will they were carrying out.
[continued]
When I speak of Christians, I am speaking of those who do what Jesus tells them to do. Obviously, He never told anyone to commit atrocities. However:
Atheists and secularists love to trot out the canard that religion has harmed more people than it has helped, and has been at the root of many or most world concflicts. However, in Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history, Dinesh D'Souza, Rishwain Fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford, argues that actually, atheism is responsible for more murders in history. His points are summarized below.
The familiar accusation: "The Crusades slaughtered millions in the name of Jesus. The Inquisition brought the torture and murder of millions more. After Martin Luther, Christians did bloody battle with other Christians for another three centuries."
Ignoring the crimes of atheism - "The problem with this critique is that it exaggerates the crimes attributed to religion, while ignoring the greater crimes of secular fanaticism."
How many killed?
Salem Witch Trials (25)
Crusades (10,000 to 100,000) - note that the Crusades were most likely a justified defensive war after 400 years of Muslim aggression, and were not used to spread Christianity or take revenge, but to free captured lands from Muslim oppression.
Atheism (>100 MILLION) - at the hands of the militant anti-religious atheists Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong.
Many wars attributed to religion are not religious in nature - "Moreover, many of the conflicts that are counted as "religious wars" were not fought over religion. They were mainly fought over rival claims to territory and power.... Ethnic rivalry, not religion, is the source of the tension in Northern Ireland and the Balkans [for example]"
Nazism often mistakenly characterized as Christian - "Dawkins and Harris cannot explain why, if Nazism was directly descended from medieval Christianity, medieval Christianity did not produce a Hitler. How can a self-proclaimed atheist ideology, advanced by Hitler as a repudiation of Christianity, be a "culmination" of 2,000 years of Christianity? Dawkins and Harris are employing a transparent sleight of hand that holds Christianity responsible for the crimes committed in its name, while exonerating secularism and atheism for the greater crimes committed in their name."
NOTE: Also, despite the cries of revisionism, I think the recent books and TV specials linking social Darwinism, and by extension, evolutionary thinking, as the scientific underpinnings of the eugenics practiced by Hitler is worth investigating. Rather than being Christian in nature, Hitler's revolution is more probably linked with the pseudo-science of Darwinism - but that's a separate discussion. See:
From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany
The Nazi Connection: Eugenics, American Racism, and German National Socialism
Evolution’s Fatal Fruit
From Darwin’s Theory to Hitler’s Holocaust
Darwin’s Deadly Legacy
Darwin at Nurenberg, Part I, Part II
Darwinism and the Nazi Race Holocaust
Religious fanatics commit evil in religion's name, but Jesus' teaching stand as a rebuke to such, not a support - "Religious fanatics have done things that are impossible to defend, and some of them, mostly in the Muslim world, are still performing horrors in the name of their creed. But if religion sometimes disposes people to self-righteousness and absolutism, it also provides a moral code that condemns the slaughter of innocents. In particular, the moral teachings of Jesus provide no support for - indeed they stand as a stern rebuke to - the historical injustices perpetrated in the name of Christianity."
If God is not, everything is permitted - The crimes of atheism have generally been perpetrated through a hubristic ideology that sees man, not God, as the creator of values. Using the latest techniques of science and technology, man seeks to displace God and create a secular utopia here on earth. Of course if some people - the Jews, the landowners, the unfit, or the handicapped - have to be eliminated in order to achieve this utopia, this is a price the atheist tyrants and their apologists have shown themselves quite willing to pay. Thus they confirm the truth of Fyodor Dostoyevsky's dictum, "If God is not, everything is permitted."
The long and short of it? It is the fallenness and wickedness of man that creates wars. Abusing faith, or being rooted in false and evil religions like (militant) Islam, people do evil in *spite* of God. And those who reject God with the bathwater of man's religious evil fall into their own trap - depending entirely on mankind for morality, they fall prey to their own fallenness, fulfilling the dictum "ultimate power corrupts ultimately." Man needs God to keep from self-deception and selfish or misguided justifications for doing evil.
"Whatever the motives for atheist bloodthirstiness, the indisputable fact is that all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades. It's time to abandon the mindlessly repeated mantra that religious belief has been the greatest source of human conflict and violence. Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history."
The historical fact is that, whenever atheism has had it's day, it has produced murder, despite what generous and kind atheists like to say. This is not because atheists are any more sinful than anyone else, nor do they usually set out to murder. They set out to make the world better. But, their own hatred for God and sinful nature eventually take over. I'm not sure why this is, but I suspect that some of it is because, without God, there is no real reason to sacrifice for others or do good. In fact, you more likely would end up with a Randian [Ian Rand] utopia where the weak and helpless who can't do for themselves are left to die so that the strong may carry on.
http://www.wholereason.com/2011/01/athe ... ities.html
[continue]
Truth Frees! Evolution is evidence free speculation masquerading as science.
Columbine
gmc;1419102 wrote:
The theory of evolution is a scientific theory - a scientific theory is simply the best explanation available consistent with current scientific knowledge not yet disproved by experiment. It is not an never has been an article of faith. Prove it wrong if you can so long as you can do so logically then you have a case.
[continue]
Apparently you have not really looked at evolution and its flaws. If science is truly self-correcting then all remaining evolutionary stories will someday be debunked as well. The fact of the matter is that the fossil evidence is only evidence for evolution because evolutionists choose to see it that way. If all of the dog species extant today were fossilized and dug up, it would be easy to arrange them in an order that would give the appearance that they represent a progression from a common ancestor, perhaps from the smallest species to the largest. The mere existence of fossils only proves that those creatures were once alive, and died. Nothing more. There is not a single fossil species that can be demonstrated to be the descendant or ancestor of any other. It is almost unavoidable that researchers who reconstruct skeletons from fragments will make them look like what they believe they looked like. So, what they believe about evolution shows in their reconstructions, whether it is accurate or not. Since evolutionists refuse to admit that evolution is a belief system more than experimental science, they can't admit that their research is influenced by their beliefs.
Where do you stand on gravitational theory? That too is a scientific theory Do you believe in intelligent falling or does the earth suck. How about flight, ever been on a plane? What do you think happens of you don't believe in the science behind an aeroplane flying.
Gravitation is a law, not a theory. Your question seems to imply that since I do not believe in evolution, I somehow cannot believe in science. Nothing could be further from the truth. The fact is that science disproves evolution.
What is this world-view of atheism you think exists? An atheist is simply someone who doesn't believe in a super being. That's it that's all they have in common. Just because you can't conceive someone can exist and function without religious faith doesn't mean they have to believe in something else and need to follow some kind of world-view someone else has constructed for them.
We all have a worldview. It is important we have a worldview that fits the facts. Atheism does not fit the facts. Christianity does. For example:
When we set out to explain why and how something happens, we must use the evidence, facts and experience available to us if we are to arrive at a logical conclusion. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that the universe had a beginning and that before that beginning there was no universe and therefore there was nothing. We know this because of the Law of Causality (for every cause there is an effect and for every effect there is a cause). Based on this law, we can use the following logic:
1. The universe exists.
2. The universe had a beginning.
3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.
4. Since there was no universe, there was nothing.
5. Since the universe does exist, it came from nothing.
6. Something does not come from nothing by any natural cause.
7. Therefore the cause of the universe is supernatural.
8. Life exists.
9. Life always comes from pre-existing life of the same kind (the Law of Biogenesis).
10. Life cannot come from nonliving matter by any natural cause.
11. Since life does exist, the cause of life is supernatural.
Many people with a naturalistic worldview assume everything can be explained by natural causes. From the beginning, they reject the possibility of a supernatural cause. Because of this they are left with no scientifically valid answers to the question of how the universe could come from nothing, which is impossible by any natural cause of which we are aware. Many answers have been proposed that go beyond the realm of known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation and therefore enter the realm of fiction.
The same logic applies to life. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that life only comes from pre-existing life of the same kind.
“Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the Law of Biogenesis. Evolution conflicts with this scientific law by claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes (From "In the Beginning" by Walt Brown).
Life never comes from non-living matter by any natural cause of which we are aware.
Now that we have seen proof that God exists, using logic based on known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we need to see if He has revealed Himself to us. In the Holy Bible there are hundreds of prophecies given by God who is speaking in the first person. In both Bible and secular history we find that those prophecies have been accurately fulfilled. No other writing on earth comes close to doing this! Only God can accurately reveal the future, ergo, He is the author of the Holy Bible. Within the pages of the Holy Bible He reveals His nature, our nature, His relationship to us, our need for salvation and His plan of salvation for us.
The reason the universe and life cannot come from nothing by any natural cause, but can come from a supernatural cause is because God is the self-existent creator of everything and everyone. He is not subject to His creation. He created it and sustains it. It is a mistake to judge God by human standards and human perspectives. God reveals that He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
If you are interested in more detailed proof, read, “Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell.
[ From “Reincarnation in the Bible?]
The theory of evolution is a scientific theory - a scientific theory is simply the best explanation available consistent with current scientific knowledge not yet disproved by experiment. It is not an never has been an article of faith. Prove it wrong if you can so long as you can do so logically then you have a case.
[continue]
Apparently you have not really looked at evolution and its flaws. If science is truly self-correcting then all remaining evolutionary stories will someday be debunked as well. The fact of the matter is that the fossil evidence is only evidence for evolution because evolutionists choose to see it that way. If all of the dog species extant today were fossilized and dug up, it would be easy to arrange them in an order that would give the appearance that they represent a progression from a common ancestor, perhaps from the smallest species to the largest. The mere existence of fossils only proves that those creatures were once alive, and died. Nothing more. There is not a single fossil species that can be demonstrated to be the descendant or ancestor of any other. It is almost unavoidable that researchers who reconstruct skeletons from fragments will make them look like what they believe they looked like. So, what they believe about evolution shows in their reconstructions, whether it is accurate or not. Since evolutionists refuse to admit that evolution is a belief system more than experimental science, they can't admit that their research is influenced by their beliefs.
Where do you stand on gravitational theory? That too is a scientific theory Do you believe in intelligent falling or does the earth suck. How about flight, ever been on a plane? What do you think happens of you don't believe in the science behind an aeroplane flying.
Gravitation is a law, not a theory. Your question seems to imply that since I do not believe in evolution, I somehow cannot believe in science. Nothing could be further from the truth. The fact is that science disproves evolution.
What is this world-view of atheism you think exists? An atheist is simply someone who doesn't believe in a super being. That's it that's all they have in common. Just because you can't conceive someone can exist and function without religious faith doesn't mean they have to believe in something else and need to follow some kind of world-view someone else has constructed for them.
We all have a worldview. It is important we have a worldview that fits the facts. Atheism does not fit the facts. Christianity does. For example:
When we set out to explain why and how something happens, we must use the evidence, facts and experience available to us if we are to arrive at a logical conclusion. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that the universe had a beginning and that before that beginning there was no universe and therefore there was nothing. We know this because of the Law of Causality (for every cause there is an effect and for every effect there is a cause). Based on this law, we can use the following logic:
1. The universe exists.
2. The universe had a beginning.
3. Before the beginning of the universe, there was no universe.
4. Since there was no universe, there was nothing.
5. Since the universe does exist, it came from nothing.
6. Something does not come from nothing by any natural cause.
7. Therefore the cause of the universe is supernatural.
8. Life exists.
9. Life always comes from pre-existing life of the same kind (the Law of Biogenesis).
10. Life cannot come from nonliving matter by any natural cause.
11. Since life does exist, the cause of life is supernatural.
Many people with a naturalistic worldview assume everything can be explained by natural causes. From the beginning, they reject the possibility of a supernatural cause. Because of this they are left with no scientifically valid answers to the question of how the universe could come from nothing, which is impossible by any natural cause of which we are aware. Many answers have been proposed that go beyond the realm of known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation and therefore enter the realm of fiction.
The same logic applies to life. Using available evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we know that life only comes from pre-existing life of the same kind.
“Spontaneous generation (the emergence of life from nonliving matter) has never been observed. All observations have shown that life comes only from life. This has been observed so consistently it is called the Law of Biogenesis. Evolution conflicts with this scientific law by claiming that life came from nonliving matter through natural processes (From "In the Beginning" by Walt Brown).
Life never comes from non-living matter by any natural cause of which we are aware.
Now that we have seen proof that God exists, using logic based on known evidence, experience, facts, observation and experimentation, we need to see if He has revealed Himself to us. In the Holy Bible there are hundreds of prophecies given by God who is speaking in the first person. In both Bible and secular history we find that those prophecies have been accurately fulfilled. No other writing on earth comes close to doing this! Only God can accurately reveal the future, ergo, He is the author of the Holy Bible. Within the pages of the Holy Bible He reveals His nature, our nature, His relationship to us, our need for salvation and His plan of salvation for us.
The reason the universe and life cannot come from nothing by any natural cause, but can come from a supernatural cause is because God is the self-existent creator of everything and everyone. He is not subject to His creation. He created it and sustains it. It is a mistake to judge God by human standards and human perspectives. God reveals that He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
If you are interested in more detailed proof, read, “Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell.
[ From “Reincarnation in the Bible?]
Truth Frees! Evolution is evidence free speculation masquerading as science.
Columbine
Accountable;1419146 wrote: Except for little ones, like the Crusades, The Inquisition (what a show!), Salem Witch trials, ....
See my reply to gmc.
See my reply to gmc.
Truth Frees! Evolution is evidence free speculation masquerading as science.
Columbine
posted by pahu
It is a secret to me. What do you think was kept in and what removed and why they did it?
I suggest you do your own research maybe start with the congress of nicea and take it from there. The seeds off the later disputes between the catholic church and those they would call heretics lie there. Just because somebody tells you the bible is the unchanging word of god and you should accept it as such doesn't mean you have to do so. you owe it to yourself IMO.
This chap is quite interesting as well.
Augustine of Hippo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I don;t suggest you rely on the likes wikipedia but it's a useful start point - you can read original sources for yourself.
If you really are interested in religion rather than just simply believe what you are told you should find it interesting.
It is a secret to me. What do you think was kept in and what removed and why they did it?
I suggest you do your own research maybe start with the congress of nicea and take it from there. The seeds off the later disputes between the catholic church and those they would call heretics lie there. Just because somebody tells you the bible is the unchanging word of god and you should accept it as such doesn't mean you have to do so. you owe it to yourself IMO.
This chap is quite interesting as well.
Augustine of Hippo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I don;t suggest you rely on the likes wikipedia but it's a useful start point - you can read original sources for yourself.
If you really are interested in religion rather than just simply believe what you are told you should find it interesting.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Columbine
Pahu;1419195 wrote: See my reply to gmc.
Yeh, I saw the circular logic:
Pahu;1419193 wrote: When I speak of Christians, I am speaking of those who do what Jesus tells them to do.
Christians are exactly as I say they are. Those who claim to be Christians, but who are not exactly as I say Christians are, are therefore not, by definition, Christians.
Incontrovertible logic there, nodoubtaboutit.
Yeh, I saw the circular logic:
Pahu;1419193 wrote: When I speak of Christians, I am speaking of those who do what Jesus tells them to do.
Christians are exactly as I say they are. Those who claim to be Christians, but who are not exactly as I say Christians are, are therefore not, by definition, Christians.
Incontrovertible logic there, nodoubtaboutit.